Data Game & Watch Hitboxes and Frame Data

[bubbaking]

To be honest, even if G&W had better aerials, L-cancels on all his aerials, and a shield, he would probably still get wrecked by Sheik harder than anyone. Like, isn't Sheik his hardest MU, even harder than Falco? She can CG him and one grab could very easily be a 0-to-death with proper edgeguarding. He's Sheik's ideal combo bag. He's not a fast faller, but he falls just fast enough that he's easy to CG and combo, and one good smack kills him. Hmmm, I guess anyone who wants a good Watch should go play SD Remix instead. I hear that game has good potential and it's truer to Melee than Project M, although I don't mind the path that Project M is taking...

Edit: Ah yes, here are Game's changes in SDR. The change I'm actually liking the most is the invincibility on startup for his upB. He now has a decent OoS game that lines up perfectly with his improved shield.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think it's Fox and Falco because he has no juke for their pressure and they can force techs easier, which is like stun lock combos but better (vs Gaw). They also abuse his horrible shield better than Sheik does and their faster pace forces him into flailing better. I could go on but yeah.

Sheik is next though probably.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, that invincibility on startup that they put on his upB in in SDR would definitely help then, especially since the move's hitbox already comes out on frame 1.

It's funny. A while ago, I was comparing three of the worst chars in Melee, Pichu, Kirby, and G&W, and I realized that if any two of them were combined, you'd have a really deep character with great potential. Kind of supports my impression that each of them isn't really a complete char on his own. If Pichu had Game's traction for WDs and edgecancels, you'd have a great character for rushdown, especially on platforms. He would have all these incredibly safe bairs and dairs, which would have much more leniency with their edgecancelling, and his mobility would improve too.

If Game had Kirby's ability to L-cancel and his multiple jumps, even if it wasn't all of them, he'd be phenomenal. Just think: a multihitting bair/fair WoP, his already potent combos against fast fallers continued offstage. His combined weight and recovery problem also wouldn't be so bad, even if he got just one extra jump. In fact, he might even be able to work around his L-cancelling problem, so he wouldn't even need that, tbh. He could just FH the bairs and jump afterwards for safety, his uair too. It would also be way easier to capitalize on hit-confirms:
Opponent shielding at edge of platform. Cross them up by jumping through them (and off the platform) while bairing backwards at them > DJ and bair more for added shield pressure. If you spot a hit confirm, you have more jumps for followups, or you can keep up the pressure. Uair would be a better combo extender. Ever have those times during a combo when you DJ uair someone to extend the combo, but then you realize that you should have just naired them instead because you have way too far to fall before you can reach the ground, even with a FF, and come back up to finish what you started? An additional jump would solve all of that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah I think giving Jigglypuff the fair of Mr. Game & Watch makes a good character too.

 

[bubbaking]

Bottom characters only.

Ever have those times during a combo when you DJ uair someone to extend the combo, but then you realize that you should have just naired them instead because you have way too far to fall before you can reach the ground, even with a FF, and come back up to finish what you started? An additional jump would solve all of that.

Ever read a run-on sentence but wondered if there is such a thing as a run-on question? I think I just did that...

 

[j00t]

Don't have time to read everything but Fox and Falco are definitely harder for G&W than Sheik.

 

[Beat!]

Y ep.

 

[bubbaking]

Not that it means anything, but this MU chart has Falco as a -2 for G&W while it has Sheik as a -3. Just noticed it now, but I'll take your word on the issue over the chart. I just know that, personally, I loved fighting G&W 'cause it was CG City followed by Combo Central followed by One Slap To end it all, One Kick to kill you, One Attack to hit you all and in the darkness bind you in the Matchup vs Sheik where the Ninjas lie.

 

[Beat!]

Well yeah, Sheik is pretty damn horrible for him as well. Spacies just happen to be even worse.

 

[phish-it]

Why would you enjoy picking Sheik and chain throwing ****ty characters? Do you enjoy stealing lunch money from handicapped children too?

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz! Sheik was my first main in Melee. It was a tough world at Stony Brook, when everyone knew how to play and I didn't. While using her, I discovered that she could CG a lot of characters, so I went to town with it. I actually managed to turn a Yoshi main (a good one, too) into a hardcore Fox main because of Sheik BS. I've since switched over to Samus, though, because she's a lot more fun, but I've still retained Sheik as a secondary when I don't feel like trying as hard. And how did you know about the handicapped children? <___<

 

[KirbyKaze]

Do you enjoy stealing lunch money from handicapped children too?

I'm not sure you want me to answer this honestly.

Not that it means anything, but this MU chart has Falco as a -2 for G&W while it has Sheik as a -3. Just noticed it now, but I'll take your word on the issue over the chart. I just know that, personally, I loved fighting G&W 'cause it was CG City followed by Combo Central followed by One Slap To end it all, One Kick to kill you, One Attack to hit you all and in the darkness bind you in the Matchup vs Sheik where the Ninjas lie.

Ah, it makes sense now. Your information database is outdated. If I was using outdated information I'd probably draw your conclusion too so I don't blame you for thinking what you do.

 

[Wojo]

Landfallspeciallag: 6

This... what is this?

 

[Crezyte]

This... what is this?

Landfallspecial lag is the lag you have after completing the entire up-b, then landing on the ground. So, if you complete the 39 frames of up-b and you land on the ground the frame after, you have 6 frames of lag.

Otherwise if you land on the ground before the up-b is fully completed, which would probably mean you landed around frames 35-39, you get a poop ton of lag and you cry because you get punished.

 

[borg]

What da garbage? You guys... how in the world is Fox/Falco a bad matchup for gaw? I used to main Luigi but then I toyed around with gaw and found out how he utterly juggles 0%-death fox/falco. Not even a strong DI can shake out of GAW's downA, fair/L-cancel, fair/L-cancel,(repeat 'till off stage) and then Nair. They can't control that cause Fox/falco's are characters with massive tumbling lag and they never hit the ground with how fast GAW can pick up and hit them again with Fair. Fox/falco's also have no way of dealing with the Utilt (flag) cause its so massive they can't cut through it. It also begins a juggling process of forward air/L-cancel's 'till death. And so, they fear the u-tilt as it equals death and you can control spacing like marth could, and then there is no pressuring on the fox/falco's part. I play Gaw because he counters fox/falco (as well as capt falcon.) Gaw is anti heavy faller, and then he is great against floaty aerial characters like puff/peach/luigi because of the ridiculous anti-air arsenal of Utilt, Nair, and Uair with the pusher and finisher Fair.

Then I play luigi vs marth/shiek (though I am starting to appreciate gaw more and will probably start maining him entirely. He's overpowered in my humble and unbiased opinion.) But the only characters I believe are truly bad matchups are marth and shiek. Marth out reaches or is equal in range as gaw's moves so then its a spacing battle which is marth's ball game. Shiek, well... that chain grab is stupid and shiek neither fast falls or floats for proper juggling as far as gaw is concerned. shiek is that perfect middleground to kill Gaw.

Also I'll argue a case for his aerials that can't be l-canceled. Notice that the Nair is 15 frams land lag. This is better than Gannon's l-cancled down air which is 17 frames. This land lag is faster than most characters non-l-cancled landings and thus, it is as if it was already l-cancled for you. Especially with how that parachute hit's like a truck, I thought it was overpowered (especially powerful when edge cancelling. really sets up a massive wall so you can reach the ground and have the opponent right above you in range of a Utilt cause they were evading the Nair-wall.) But anyways, it is as if it were already l-canceled. 't'would be broken if nair l-cancled as it is... what a 8 frame land lage with that nair would be cheap. anyways: The Bair and Uair are only a frame longer than gannon's Dair l-cancel; which is 18frames. I compare to gannon's dair because that thing l-canceld is fast enough to respond to any punishing attempts.
So really, the non-l-cancle-able aerials are as if they were already l-cancled. The only move I strongly advise you don't land with is the U-air since it is so vertical you can get punished real easy if you miss by an enemy b-fair (where a Gaw fair or bair has distance and long lasting hitboxes that keep the enemy away.)

The Bair is anti marth as I am starting to learn. Vs marth is a space battle which then its comically similar to a marth mirror battle. Really the ONLY truly bad match up is sheik. That one I can't get around, I just play luigi against that trash.

anyways, I know late post (couple years). Just couldn't sit hear and have my blood boil over the dislike of gaw. Respect gaw, he is anti heavy faller and floaters.

 

[Dnae]

What da garbage? You guys... how in the world is Fox/Falco a bad matchup for gaw? I used to main Luigi but then I toyed around with gaw and found out how he utterly juggles 0%-death fox/falco. Not even a strong DI can shake out of GAW's downA, fair/L-cancel, fair/L-cancel,(repeat 'till off stage) and then Nair. They can't control that cause Fox/falco's are characters with massive tumbling lag and they never hit the ground with how fast GAW can pick up and hit them again with Fair. Fox/falco's also have no way of dealing with the Utilt (flag) cause its so massive they can't cut through it. It also begins a juggling process of forward air/L-cancel's 'till death. And so, they fear the u-tilt as it equals death and you can control spacing like marth could, and then there is no pressuring on the fox/falco's part. I play Gaw because he counters fox/falco (as well as capt falcon.) Gaw is anti heavy faller, and then he is great against floaty aerial characters like puff/peach/luigi because of the ridiculous anti-air arsenal of Utilt, Nair, and Uair with the pusher and finisher Fair.

Then I play luigi vs marth/shiek (though I am starting to appreciate gaw more and will probably start maining him entirely. He's overpowered in my humble and unbiased opinion.) But the only characters I believe are truly bad matchups are marth and shiek. Marth out reaches or is equal in range as gaw's moves so then its a spacing battle which is marth's ball game. Shiek, well... that chain grab is stupid and shiek neither fast falls or floats for proper juggling as far as gaw is concerned. shiek is that perfect middleground to kill Gaw.

Also I'll argue a case for his aerials that can't be l-canceled. Notice that the Nair is 15 frams land lag. This is better than Gannon's l-cancled down air which is 17 frames. This land lag is faster than most characters non-l-cancled landings and thus, it is as if it was already l-cancled for you. Especially with how that parachute hit's like a truck, I thought it was overpowered (especially powerful when edge cancelling. really sets up a massive wall so you can reach the ground and have the opponent right above you in range of a Utilt cause they were evading the Nair-wall.) But anyways, it is as if it were already l-canceled. 't'would be broken if nair l-cancled as it is... what a 8 frame land lage with that nair would be cheap. anyways: The Bair and Uair are only a frame longer than gannon's Dair l-cancel; which is 18frames. I compare to gannon's dair because that thing l-canceld is fast enough to respond to any punishing attempts.
So really, the non-l-cancle-able aerials are as if they were already l-cancled. The only move I strongly advise you don't land with is the U-air since it is so vertical you can get punished real easy if you miss by an enemy b-fair (where a Gaw fair or bair has distance and long lasting hitboxes that keep the enemy away.)

The Bair is anti marth as I am starting to learn. Vs marth is a space battle which then its comically similar to a marth mirror battle. Really the ONLY truly bad match up is sheik. That one I can't get around, I just play luigi against that trash.

anyways, I know late post (couple years). Just couldn't sit hear and have my blood boil over the dislike of gaw. Respect gaw, he is anti heavy faller and floaters.

g&w wrecks

 

[Dnae]

 

[22Films]

His Neutral Air is busted

 

[VisualBoyAdvance]

Can’t we at least thank the guy for posting these hit boxes?