Gameplay: Brawl>64>Melee

[Diggerzz]

oh i havent noticed that this P.E guy said somethin like he would beat every pro now cause some adv. techs aren't in brawl.... I think that's rubbish they'll still be good as always . I just agree with his opinion about the gameplay on an advanced level seems strange to me and i'd like to have that changed. But when anyone says somethin like that in a thread he always gets flamed cause there sure are some very arrogant guys in here.

 

[jimmyjoe]

I own brawl,
I think it is indeed early to tell if it will be competitive, but nevertheless we can all have speculations if we've played it at all, or even just watched videos with a knowledge of the game and the series as a whole.

Smash64 IS(not was) a great game, and if you don't like that I will kill you if I hit you with a certain move, regardless of your percentage, don't get hit by it. There are massive consequences in a game with such combo ability, but the game is much slower than melee so it's less difficult to limit your mistakes. you may have to play what feels like a perfect game to beat opponents on a high level, but it is very rewarding.

Melee IS an absolutely brilliant game as well. It is FAST, much faster than brawl or 64, with a steep learning curve and a plethora of defensive and offensive options and advanced techniques. Obviously though, if your on these forums you know(or should know), that it is incredibly competitive.

So what about Brawl?
Well... It's been hard to take some of the absent technical aspects out of my game. I always still try to cancel my arials, but honestly, The most frustrating thing is that my dash dance has been taken away. But you know what? I'll get used to it... Brawl is really fun regardless of whether or not it will be competitive. I don't think it can be as competitive melee to be honest with you, but I think there will be a competitive scene. Melee's scene doesn't have to die, and I'll still play 64

 

[P.E]

You see, I play Brawl on a deeper level than "Get a few friends together and have 4-man FFAs". I'm constantly trying to explore the metagame, trying to find out new techs and expanding the knowledge on already discovered techs and tactics.

That´s the difference between you and me.

Although many characters have nearly the same movesets (compare the changing of movesets to 64->Melee!) every character´s attacks changed in terms of lag, range, force etc. making it impossible to be a pro at this game immediately. Now I try to get used too all the changes, learning all character´s attacks in order to be able to face any character.

You on the other hand are trying to "constantly explore the metagame, trying to find out new techs and expanding the knowledge on already discovered techs and tactics." See the difference? I remember a map at COD2 that had this certain spot which was apparantly impossible to reach (most of the players didn´t even notice it). But every now and then a wise guy reached it nonetheless making him nearly invisible.
I didn´t want to waste my time searching for this spot (I rather trained my shooting skills and explored every inch of the maps WHILE playing!) and only a few weeks later the bug had been removed. That usually doesn´t work on console-games that´s why we had to wait many years for some Melee-techniques to be banned. Anyway, that´s one of the reasons why I prefer Brawl over Melee and even 64.

I don´t know what´s so stupid about my opinion and you don´t have to call me names even if you think it is.

 

[UNKN{OWN}iXi]

Brawl > SSB > Melee.


Agreed. Glad to see all that wavedashing doo doo is gone!

 

[TuRk E]

Y eah I mean look at COD4 Its wasn't very good at frist then people gave it a chance and now look its on top spot of xbox live same with halo 3.

give brawl time to get to be liked more than melee.

I thought it was great at the start.

 

[BuSHiDo]

It´s so amusing when some little kidz call me loser and stuff.
It´s also amusing when I see all the threads about how afraid you are of being not much better than a casual. It´s like "we have to find new techniques or else we won´t win against noobs anymore". No wonder if you spend 90% of your playtime on training mode. (it´s an exaggeration, but you get the point).

Jeez man, your post is like dripping with the need to impress yourself. I'm guessing nobody ever tells you they're proud of you and this is the your desperate attempt to feel better.

First off, imagine a guy who knows boxing getting into a street fight with a guy who knows kickboxing. Imagine the kickboxer kicks the boxer right across the head and knocks him out. You sound like the boxer waking up 5 minutes later saying "what a little fairy! He had to use his legs to beat me, otherwise I would have killed him with my punches! He must have been so scared that he had to search for some kind of advanced technique!"

Doesn't he sound like a sore loser who's intimidated and jealous of a person who is much better than he is and then tries to bash them to feel better?

Do you consider the kickboxer to be cheap or scared of losing to a noob?

Would the kickboxer be insulted if the boxer said "yeah, well the only reason you're so good is cuz you spend all that time at the kickboxing gym!" or would the boxer just sound like a pathetic moron?

It's like the boxer tried using more advanced techniques a few times and thought it was hard and then found it easier to just bash the techniques and the people who use them and then go on a kickboxing message board and tell them that kicking ruins the fun of fighting.

Think about all that and realize how stupid this boxer sounds.

 

[Kazuya]

Simply put idiots. Melee - was perfect. Why fix a game that isn't broken?

Apart from WDing Melee was perfect. The new air system in Brawl isn't tht good, neither is the slower gameplay.

Seriously - just because you couldn't keep up with Melee doesn't mean we have to suffer in this game...

 

[Brawler1432]

Y eah I mean look at COD4 Its wasn't very good at frist then people gave it a chance and now look its on top spot of xbox live same with halo 3.

give brawl time to get to be liked more than melee.

So true, you guys never even played the game yet, but when you hear some of the techs are gone, you just go off ranting about how Melee will always be better, play the game first at least.

Simply put idiots. Melee - was perfect. Why fix a game that isn't broken?

Apart from WDing Melee was perfect. The new air system in Brawl isn't tht good, neither is the slower gameplay.

Seriously - just because you couldn't keep up with Melee doesn't mean we have to suffer in this game...

Have you played the game?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

So true, you guys never even played the game yet, but when you hear some of the techs are gone, you just go off ranting about how Melee will always be better, play the game first at least.

Nonsense. The people making such claims have (almost without exception) all played a lot of Brawl.

 

[Ballistaboy]

ive played both melee and the n64 version and i feel that the games get better, i have a feeling that brawl will be better than melee just needs time, how long was it before any of you knew advanced techniques about the game before you even had it? it took a while for me to learn AT's in melee and be good at them

There are already numerous AT's out for brawl just wait a couple months and ppl will be filled with them thats my opinion

 

[P.E]

@BuSHiDo: Your allegory doesn´t make sense cause I never said was very good at Melee. I admit that I would lose to most of you in Melee, but I think I woudn´t in 64 or Brawl cause I played 64 a whole lot and I will play Brawl a lot. Simply because I prefer the gameplay of the 1st and 3rd installment of the series. So yeah, you´re the better Kickboxer but I don´t care very much cause I prefer Boxing and Kung Fu or whatever you wanna call it.

It's like the boxer tried using more advanced techniques a few times and thought it was hard and then found it easier to just bash the techniques and the people who use them and then go on a kickboxing message board and tell them that kicking ruins the fun of fighting.

BTW Advanced Techniques sounds kinda gay. You guys even call Fast Falling a AT, don´t you? I´ve used DI e.g. since 2000 or 2001 and I didn´t call DI. However I don´t like some of the so called ATs from Melee and how the change the gameplay. But I´m not trying to properly use them because they would be too hard to learn (I like challenges) but because I don´t like how they change the gameplay and balance of the game. But if you prefer Melee over Brawl, that go on with playing Melee.

 

[TheZizz]

Agree, glitch of wave dash was inferior. Good for now Sakurai to make Brawl more of Smash 64.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Agree, glitch of wave dash was inferior. Good for now Sakurai to make Brawl more of Smash 64.

Wavedashing was not a glitch, nor was it "inferior."

BTW Advanced Techniques sounds kinda gay. You guys even call Fast Falling a AT, don´t you? I´ve used DI e.g. since 2000 or 2001 and I didn´t call DI. However I don´t like some of the so called ATs from Melee and how the change the gameplay. But I´m not trying to properly use them because they would be too hard to learn (I like challenges) but because I don´t like how they change the gameplay and balance of the game. But if you prefer Melee over Brawl, that go on with playing Melee.

Do you know what DI is? In all its extent?

And fast falling is not really an advanced technique.

If you don't like advanced techniques and don't play with them, fine. Doesn't change the fact that Melee has more depth and is more competitively viable than 64 and maybe Brawl at this point. Everything else is pretty much preference, but Melee is more competitively viable than 64 and that is a fact.

 

[RedrappeR]

Hey guys, I have an idea... there's this lovely thing called

an opinion

It's this really cool thing. Maybe you guys should learn about it, instead of, you know... jerking each other off in circles.

 

[BuSHiDo]

@BuSHiDo: Your allegory doesn´t make sense cause I never said was very good at Melee. I admit that I would lose to most of you in Melee, but I think I woudn´t in 64 or Brawl cause I played 64 a whole lot and I will play Brawl a lot. Simply because I prefer the gameplay of the 1st and 3rd installment of the series. So yeah, you´re the better Kickboxer but I don´t care very much cause I prefer Boxing and Kung Fu or whatever you wanna call it.



BTW Advanced Techniques sounds kinda gay. You guys even call Fast Falling a AT, don´t you? I´ve used DI e.g. since 2000 or 2001 and I didn´t call DI. However I don´t like some of the so called ATs from Melee and how the change the gameplay. But I´m not trying to properly use them because they would be too hard to learn (I like challenges) but because I don´t like how they change the gameplay and balance of the game. But if you prefer Melee over Brawl, that go on with playing Melee.

Yes, it still makes sense, whether you claim to be good or not, because that wasn't my point at all.

You can prefer boxing in Melee, but if Melee is all out fighting and you only want to box, then I'd say you were the one missing out on the fun because you're choosing to ignore all the other aspects of the fight.

Ok, advanced techniques sounds gay, +1 for your side of the argument. Fast falling itself isn't an advanced technique. It's even demonstrated in the basic technique video in the game. BUT, when using fast falling mixed with short hopping, aerial moves, and l-canceling, then it part of an advanced technique.

The whole argument that it's not that the advanced stuff is too hard for you, but that you don't like the way it changes the gameplay, has nothing behind it. What could more options and more advanced techniques/strategies do to harm the gameplay? Would you also argue that newer Madden games take the fun out of it because you can choose between 1,000 more options between and during plays than you could back in the NES days? It's just basically undeniable that the only people that have those kind of criticisms are the ones that just don't feel like putting the effort in to learning more and getting better.

The truth is, if you could snap your fingers and be as good as the best pro smash player, you would. Don't even try to act like you wouldn't do that, or that you would do it but still "prefer" not using the advanced techniques cuz that's another load of crap.

 

[P.E]

If you don't like advanced techniques and don't play with them, fine. Doesn't change the fact that Melee has more depth and is more competitively viable than 64 and maybe Brawl at this point. Everything else is pretty much preference, but Melee is more competitively viable than 64 and that is a fact.

First of all I don´t like the term AT. I discovered many things by playing 64 many years but I didn´t write them down and don´t know the exact names of AT but that doesn´t mean I haven´t used them! And don´t think Melee is more "competitively viable" than 64. It´s nothing unusal to remove and add things to a series. Street Fighter 4 won´t have parry but it does´nt mean it less "competitively viable" cause it will be a different game. Who are you anyway to decide what is a fact and what´s not?!

 

[Thino]

is this thread about opinions? if it is I dont see the point there will always be people that prefer brawl/melee/64 for whatever reasons

 

[yoshi_fan]

Really, Yuna got overeltisted in her first post.

There is a matter of tastes in ssb64 and ssbm. They are 2 different playstyles, so it's pretty dificult to say who's the best. Whowever, melee quitted these ****ing grabs... but also did the hitstuns and hits so little that the game changed completely from destroy to weakening and give his final smash >_>

Anyway, brawl it's like a middle term betweeen thse two, so it's the best of the three.

So Brawl > Melee > SSB64 (by a little)

By someone who is happy that the game has been more sssb64ed without ****ing cheated grabs and combos.

Edit: Yuna said it: We are looking for the depth, we are trying to find GLITCHES.

Really, Is the game **** without them or what?

Before I get flamed. What time did it took to melee to discover L-cancel and Wavedash, the 2 most important techs (or famous techs)?

What i'm saying is, the game is good like it, let the metagame advance naturally. Is imposible that brawl has the same competitive scene than melee and we have seen why: there aren't as many combos, there aren't giant gaps between tiers, etc. most of the people in competitive playing played with the top5 in melee. If there aren't top 5 in brawl... How will do they compete?

I'm not saying EVERY COMPETITIVE PLAYER is like this, but most of them are. Even i have seen people in melee boards who sayed (when brawl was in development): If brawl has the power 5 who cares about all others?

And please, you then say that there isn't elitist in smash boarss, yet you can't read an oppinion from somebody without calling him troll, scrub, casual (in the bad mood) and idiot (this is for our super-mod yuna)

I'm sure if M2K posted this, nobody will be flaming (or not as many as here, yuna would flame, sure, but 50% of the posters don't).

 

[redgreenblue]

I know many of you are whinging about some Melee-techniques being banned in Brawl and I can´t deny to be gleeful.
I also know that many/some of you barely played the original Super Smash Bros. The game is played completely different to Melee and I know that many people don´t take the original game seriously. Well, fortunately Sakurai doesn´t seem to think this way.

What you guys did with Melee is taking a game that´s kind of inferior to his forerunner in the matter of gameplay and make the whole thing even worse by abusing glitches (I´m not talking about L-Cancel though, but I can live with it being banned).

The battle in the air used to be a huge part in the original Smash Bros but due to a very high gravitation and the Air-Dodge this part of the game was reduced significantly. The Wave Dash boosted this issue even further. To sum up I really dislike the way Melee was played on a high skill level.

Now Brawl seems to go back to the roots while also maintaining achievements from melee and adding a few new things. All I have left to say is that: If you rely so much on Wave Dashes you better don´t meet me online cause I´m quite good at the actual Smash Bros-Gameplay and mind games...

BTW if you don´t understand what I´m trying to say, I suggest that you play the original Smash Bros seriously and not just like "I tried 5 minutes and it sucks!"

I agree with your point about Brawl's higher similarity to 64 than melee's, but you have no idea what you're talking about, man. The technicality of melee is what will make most players able to beat you. The physics are a mixture of the last two games, if you think you'll be better than the average smasher because you were good at just 64 OR you were good at just melee, then you will be surprised.

 

[D.B]

Guess what loser, we're going to ruin Brawl for you too.

You sir are a god

 

[Deleted member]

Simply put idiots. Melee - was perfect. Why fix a game that isn't broken?

Apart from WDing Melee was perfect. The new air system in Brawl isn't tht good, neither is the slower gameplay.

Seriously - just because you couldn't keep up with Melee doesn't mean we have to suffer in this game...

Wow, Melee was totally broken. Brawl is waaaaaaaay better, it isn't even funny how much more improved the game is. And yes, I've played it. You can keep playing Melee, no one is taking it away from you. The rest of the world will be enjoying the far superior Brawl.

 

[P.E]

The whole argument that it's not that the advanced stuff is too hard for you, but that you don't like the way it changes the gameplay, has nothing behind it. What could more options and more advanced techniques/strategies do to harm the gameplay?

Want an example? That´s the way I play F-ZeroGX (the video is not mine but the guy seems to be about as good as I am)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zAfsTF_M60A

It´s extremely exciting and one of the best racing games I´ve ever played. But now look what a certain "advanced technique" does to its gameplay:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_aCUoDH_bbs

Do you wanna play that way? It´s not a racing game anymore! Now what does that mean? It means I´m not one of the very best F-ZeroGX gamers but that´s fine cause I simply don´t wanna play this way. Maybe the next F-Zero game won´t have this AT/bug (call it whatever you want) anymore and if that´s the case, I will try to get to the top cause I like F-Zero but I can´t stand snaking.

Now transfer what I just said to the Smash series and Melee and you may understand. BTW I´m sure most of you know about snaking in the Mario Kart series. It´s quite easy to do but it ruins the gameplay in my opinion. I CAN do it but I don´t want to, so I just stick with Super Mario Kart (SNES). Super Mario Kart has far more depth anyway even without snaking. If you don´t believe me, try it yourself.

 

[blayde_axel]

Hmm... I love when people express opinion as fact. Makes me feel all warm and cozy inside.

Want an example? That´s the way I play F-ZeroGX (the video is not mine but the guy seems to be about as good as I am)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zAfsTF_M60A

It´s extremely exciting and one of the best racing games I´ve ever played. But not look what a certain "advanced technique" does to its gameplay:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_aCUoDH_bbs

Do you wanna play that way?

It's called playing smart, genius.

 

[Miharu]

Really, Yuna got overeltisted in her first post.

There is a matter of tastes in ssb64 and ssbm. They are 2 different playstyles, so it's pretty dificult to say who's the best. Whowever, melee quitted these ****ing grabs... but also did the hitstuns and hits so little that the game changed completely from destroy to weakening and give his final smash >_>

Anyway, brawl it's like a middle term betweeen thse two, so it's the best of the three.

So Brawl > Melee > SSB64 (by a little)

By someone who is happy that the game has been more sssb64ed without ****ing cheated grabs and combos.

Edit: Yuna said it: We are looking for the depth, we are trying to find GLITCHES.

Really, Is the game **** without them or what?

Before I get flamed. What time did it took to melee to discover L-cancel and Wavedash, the 2 most important techs (or famous techs)?

What i'm saying is, the game is good like it, let the metagame advance naturally. Is imposible that brawl has the same competitive scene than melee and we have seen why: there aren't as many combos, there aren't giant gaps between tiers, etc. most of the people in competitive playing played with the top5 in melee. If there aren't top 5 in brawl... How will do they compete?

I'm not saying EVERY COMPETITIVE PLAYER is like this, but most of them are. Even i have seen people in melee boards who sayed (when brawl was in development): If brawl has the power 5 who cares about all others?

And please, you then say that there isn't elitist in smash boarss, yet you can't read an oppinion from somebody without calling him troll, scrub, casual (in the bad mood) and idiot (this is for our super-mod yuna)

I'm sure if M2K posted this, nobody will be flaming (or not as many as here, yuna would flame, sure, but 50% of the posters don't).

I'm pretty sure M2K wouldn't say (at this point in time) that Brawl is a better game than Melee.

I don't think most of you realize that it's very likely that Sakurai went out of his way to remove things that would have made the game more competitive. What's the reasoning behind the removal of L-cancelling? That it's too hard for casuals to figure out and do?

Wow, Melee was totally broken. Brawl is waaaaaaaay better, it isn't even funny how much more improved the game is. And yes, I've played it. You can keep playing Melee, no one is taking it away from you. The rest of the world will be enjoying the far superior Brawl.

ROFL

 

[shadydentist]

Every game has its exploits. Whether you want to play with them or not is your choice, but don't start whining when other people use them. You have to evaluate the game on its merits.

 

[Thino]

Want an example? That´s the way I play F-ZeroGX (the video is not mine but the guy seems to be about as good as I am)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zAfsTF_M60A

It´s extremely exciting and one of the best racing games I´ve ever played. But now look what a certain "advanced technique" does to its gameplay:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_aCUoDH_bbs

Do you wanna play that way? It´s not a racing game anymore! Now what does that mean? It means I´m not one of the very best F-ZeroGX gamers but that´s fine cause I simply don´t wanna play this way. Maybe the next F-Zero game won´t have this AT/bug (call it whatever you want) anymore and if that´s the case, I will try to get to the top cause I like F-Zero but I can´t stand snaking.

thats your problem. I got Fzero GX but I barely play it , but when I watch those 2 vids , I'd sure want to be able to pla like the latter cuz fact is that you can get better times and beat people like that, it wont be a racing game anymore when the goal wont be to be first
and apparently u dunno about that boost-stuck glitch in SMK im sure youd like it

 

[yoshi_fan]

That´s the difference between you and me.

Although many characters have nearly the same movesets (compare the changing of movesets to 64->Melee!) every character´s attacks changed in terms of lag, range, force etc. making it impossible to be a pro at this game immediately. Now I try to get used too all the changes, learning all character´s attacks in order to be able to face any character.

You on the other hand are trying to "constantly explore the metagame, trying to find out new techs and expanding the knowledge on already discovered techs and tactics." See the difference? I remember a map at COD2 that had this certain spot which was apparantly impossible to reach (most of the players didn´t even notice it). But every now and then a wise guy reached it nonetheless making him nearly invisible.
I didn´t want to waste my time searching for this spot (I rather trained my shooting skills and explored every inch of the maps WHILE playing!) and only a few weeks later the bug had been removed. That usually doesn´t work on console-games that´s why we had to wait many years for some Melee-techniques to be banned. Anyway, that´s one of the reasons why I prefer Brawl over Melee and even 64.

I don´t know what´s so stupid about my opinion and you don´t have to call me names even if you think it is.

Exactly, I myself can't see why this problem explring for "techs" (better called glitches or exploits). Why don't try to master your character and THEN get them?

All that goes to a problem: increase the pro/noob gap: elitism. Also you want to made brawl a better game when you haven't even tested all characters. Some people just are trying to get 300 AT and make the game "wonderful" with them.

As i said: let the metagame evolve naturally, do NOT force it.

 

[Miharu]

Exactly, I myself can't see why this problem explring for "techs" (better called glitches or exploits). Why don't try to master your character and THEN get them?

You can't master something until you know everything about it, "glitches" included.

All that goes to a problem: increase the pro/noob gap: elitism. Also you want to made brawl a better game when you haven't even tested all characters. Some people just are trying to get 300 AT and make the game "wonderful" with them.

As i said: let the metagame evolve naturally, do NOT force it.

The metagame would never evolve if there weren't people "forcing" it to evolve. You realize that players are what change the metagame itself, and it's going to stagnate if nobody makes an effort to advance it.

No such thing as letting it evolve by itself. It's no sentient being that's capable of adapting on its own.

 

[P.E]

thats your problem. I got Fzero GX but I barely play it , but when I watch those 2 vids , I'd sure want to be able to pla like the latter cuz fact is that you can get better times and beat people like that, it wont be a racing game anymore when the goal wont be to be first
and apparently u dunno about that boost-stuck glitch in SMK im sure youd like it

It´s not my problem. I´m not trying to compete in F-Zero GX because it would mean to snake and I have to like the gameplay in order to compete. Sounds logic, doesn´t it? And I know about the boost-thing in Super Mario Kart and I like it.

 

[LinkNSnake4Main]

I couldn't STAND melee , and I'm not even a pro \ elite player.
I love my 64, play it everyday. I traded in my melee ages ago.

 

[Thino]

It´s not my problem. I´m not trying to compete in F-Zero GX because it would mean to snake and I have to like the gameplay in order to compete. Sounds logic, doesn´t it? And I know about the boost-thing in Super Mario Kart and I like it.

you just dont like snaking then , just like you dont like some melee mechanics, whats your point then?

 

[Deleted member]

Want an example? That´s the way I play F-ZeroGX (the video is not mine but the guy seems to be about as good as I am)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zAfsTF_M60A

It´s extremely exciting and one of the best racing games I´ve ever played. But now look what a certain "advanced technique" does to its gameplay:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_aCUoDH_bbs

Do you wanna play that way? It´s not a racing game anymore! Now what does that mean? It means I´m not one of the very best F-ZeroGX gamers but that´s fine cause I simply don´t wanna play this way. Maybe the next F-Zero game won´t have this AT/bug (call it whatever you want) anymore and if that´s the case, I will try to get to the top cause I like F-Zero but I can´t stand snaking.

Now transfer what I just said to the Smash series and Melee and you may understand. BTW I´m sure most of you know about snaking in the Mario Kart series. It´s quite easy to do but it ruins the gameplay in my opinion. I CAN do it but I don´t want to, so I just stick with Super Mario Kart (SNES). Super Mario Kart has far more depth anyway even without snaking. If you don´t believe me, try it yourself.

As a fan of F-Zero GX and the Smash Bros. series I completely agree with you on every point.

One of the only intelligent people on Smash Boards.

 

[Jordan178]

Some of the advance techniques are pretty good, but Melee got those glitches because Melee was rushed. SSBB doesn't have wavedashing (which disappointed fans, but I'm a fan myself, but I'm not disappointed), but that doesn't mean we should not play it. When SSBB comes out...where are going to have a lot of fun!

 

[PityLord]

I havent been on the boards when melee came out so I dont know what kind of opinion the game had then, but I dont understand the comotion here. I dont care that much about techniques in melee (exept L-canceling ) but I dont mind of others using them. I also feel that Brawl will be great for both casual and competetive players. And I think that if the game will actually be more character ballanced then Melee, then it will just gain more depth then Melee with all the AT's combined solely for the fact that the available cast will be greater.

Im not a competetive player since I live in Europe and cant attend tourneys. Im a quite skilled player, not close to some pro's here. I try to play on competetive standards cause I like to play it this way, although its fun to take fun with items on ocasions. Thats why I dont understand tournament people freaking out how the game is bad or wont be competetive. Look for techniques sure, but you cant be obsesed about it. The sole purpose of a game is to have fun with it.

So to summarize I dont completely agree with P.E but I kinda can see his point, but also understand the professional players point. Im kinda in the middle ground here, exept that I absolutely LOVE how Brawl turned out for now. Let the pros just find out some stuff for them to be happy and we all can enjoy one of the best games in all times.

 

[Yuna]

That´s the difference between you and me.

Although many characters have nearly the same movesets (compare the changing of movesets to 64->Melee!) every character´s attacks changed in terms of lag, range, force etc. making it impossible to be a pro at this game immediately. Now I try to get used too all the changes, learning all character´s attacks in order to be able to face any character.

You on the other hand are trying to "constantly explore the metagame, trying to find out new techs and expanding the knowledge on already discovered techs and tactics." See the difference? I remember a map at COD2 that had this certain spot which was apparantly impossible to reach (most of the players didn´t even notice it). But every now and then a wise guy reached it nonetheless making him nearly invisible.
I didn´t want to waste my time searching for this spot (I rather trained my shooting skills and explored every inch of the maps WHILE playing!) and only a few weeks later the bug had been removed. That usually doesn´t work on console-games that´s why we had to wait many years for some Melee-techniques to be banned. Anyway, that´s one of the reasons why I prefer Brawl over Melee and even 64.

I don´t know what´s so stupid about my opinion and you don´t have to call me names even if you think it is.

I don't see what this post has to do with anything?

My point is that why is your opinion of how deep Brawl is more valid than mine's or Hitaku's when we're two of the people constantly trying to discover the possible hidden depth of the game? We also try to expand on what is already known by testing it.

How could you possibly know more about the depth of the game simply by playing it when you probably don't even use all of the advanced techs, tactics and strategies that are already known (because you probably don't know about them).

It's like if I sat down and played Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike for four weeks without actually trying to actively find out everything I could about the game and then started arguing its depth against someone who had.

So true, you guys never even played the game yet, but when you hear some of the techs are gone, you just go off ranting about how Melee will always be better, play the game first at least

Many of us have. I have. So have the majority of the Competitive players who discuss Brawl.

Really, Yuna got overeltisted in her first post.

How?

"And by the way, I am a man."

There is a matter of tastes in ssb64 and ssbm. They are 2 different playstyles, so it's pretty dificult to say who's the best. Whowever, melee quitted these ****ing grabs... but also did the hitstuns and hits so little that the game changed completely from destroy to weakening and give his final smash >_>

How is different from what I said? Only I said a lot more stuff.

Anyway, brawl it's like a middle term betweeen thse two, so it's the best of the three.

Why must it automatically be the best out of the three because it's the middle-of-the-road game? If Melee was better, then Brawl must be inferior if it's less like Melee and more like its inferior (according to you) predecesser.

So Brawl > Melee > SSB64 (by a little)

Bad logic.

Edit: Yuna said it: We are looking for the depth, we are trying to find GLITCHES.

Glitches =/= depth.

We've actually prefer if the stuff we found weren't glitches because then it would look ridiculous when you do it.

Before I get flamed. What time did it took to melee to discover L-cancel and Wavedash, the 2 most important techs (or famous techs)?

This was years and years ago when the community was young at being technical. We did not know what to look for or how to look for it. Heck, we didn't even have that many people looking for ATs and there weren't even that many players at all!

Stop using it as an example. How long did it take for people to discover Penicillin? Thousands of years. I guess it'll take thousands of years before the medical community finds something as useful ever again.

What i'm saying is, the game is good like it, let the metagame advance naturally. Is imposible that brawl has the same competitive scene than melee and we have seen why: there aren't as many combos, there aren't giant gaps between tiers, etc. most of the people in competitive playing played with the top5 in melee. If there aren't top 5 in brawl... How will do they compete?

You just named a few of the many reasons why Brawl is less deep. If the gap between the tiers are much bigger now, then there will be a greater concentration on tierwhoring. Since it won't be a question of "Which characters can win tournaments" anymore, it will be a question of "Which characters can even place Top32?".

I'm not saying EVERY COMPETITIVE PLAYER is like this, but most of them are. Even i have seen people in melee boards who sayed (when brawl was in development): If brawl has the power 5 who cares about all others?

And you'd be wrong for saying it. Proof, please? Quote? And were they even Competitive?! I've never seen someone say that.

And please, you then say that there isn't elitist in smash boarss, yet you can't read an oppinion from somebody without calling him troll, scrub, casual (in the bad mood) and idiot (this is for our super-mod yuna)

Who's ever used "Casual" as an insult? Of course there aer trolls and Scrubs. We dislike them. Therefore, we call them out for their Trolly and Scrubby behaviour.

And just because I once criticized a post of yours that made no sense and contains lies does not mean that what I say is automatically wrong. In fact, I've seen many Casual players agreeing with me and supporting me. Which would be weird if I were a blatant Casual-hater who constantly voiced by hatred for "their" brood.

I'm sure if M2K posted this, nobody will be flaming (or not as many as here, yuna would flame, sure, but 50% of the posters don't).

I'd flame anyone. MookieRah' sflame anyone. Smart and objective players would flame anyone. Because it's not a matter of who you are, it's a matter of what you say.

 

[SmashBro99]

Trying to rank up Brawl against the other two right now is stupid as hell.

 

[Yuna]

Exactly, I myself can't see why this problem explring for "techs" (better called glitches or exploits). Why don't try to master your character and THEN get them?

All that goes to a problem: increase the pro/noob gap: elitism. Also you want to made brawl a better game when you haven't even tested all characters. Some people just are trying to get 300 AT and make the game "wonderful" with them.

As i said: let the metagame evolve naturally, do NOT force it.

I've had to say this many times, even to you (I believe).

Most advanced techs in Melee weren't glitches or exploits. They were deliberately programmed in by Sakurai.

Why would anyone pick up a game they feel is inferior and hope that someday we might discover enough things to make it better than or just as good as Melee? Especially since from what we know so far, we find the game utterly boring.

Do you even undestand what the ATs are? The ATs give us options. Their removal took away these options. However, not enough things were introduced to make up for the lack of said options. What we have now is a game which is very limited. There's very few things we can do, which makes for a very boring game! Because the options we have aren't just limited in numbers, they're limited in functionality as well.

It's not about placing a gap between "us" and the Casuals. It's wanting a game we feel is good. No one's told you that your opinion of Brawl is wrong. You're free to think that it's fun or more suitable for your style. What gives you the right to tell us we're wrong for thinking it's less competitively viable than Melee (something that is not subjective but needs facts to back it up) or that we're wrong for thinking Melee is more fun?

Who's being the elitist here?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

First of all I don´t like the term AT. I discovered many things by playing 64 many years but I didn´t write them down and don´t know the exact names of AT but that doesn´t mean I haven´t used them! And don´t think Melee is more "competitively viable" than 64. It´s nothing unusal to remove and add things to a series. Street Fighter 4 won´t have parry but it does´nt mean it less "competitively viable" cause it will be a different game. Who are you anyway to decide what is a fact and what´s not?!

It is a fact that Melee is more competititvely viable than Smash 64. I'm no expert on Smash 64, but I know enough to know this. Ask any 64 pro, and they will tell you that Melee has more depth, and every little detail that makes 64 less competitive than Melee.

And what's wrong with the term advanced technique? If you discovered some of those things on your own, that doesn't mean they're not advanced (and therefore not basic) techniques.

About the F-Zero thing: Just from watching the videos, the second one seems far more exciting and it also looks harder and more exctiting. I would rather play like in the second one.

Also, if you don't want to compete in a game just because you don't like the way an advanced technique changes the game, you can't want to get competitive that badly and you shouldn't complain.

 

[NES n00b]

As a fan of F-Zero GX and the Smash Bros. series I completely agree with you on every point.

One of the only intelligent people on Smash Boards.

How is he intelligent for stating objective stuff like "I don't like these specific glitches?" All this thread says is "I didn't like some things in Melee, but now they are removed so I am happy." Not only that, it is a troll thread. How is this intelligent again?

Also, I would rather play the snaking way. The game looks much faster and I am guessing, I am not sure, that it probably takes more skill to do that through the race then straight foward race. Hey, I am not going to bash you for these opinions. I am, however, going to bash you for making this thread and I am also going to bash people who think this is an actual valid arguement in a logical debate. "I like" blank is not a logical arguement.

edit: Melee has more depth due to more balanced options. You have to know and do far more things in Melee than Smash 64. In smash 64, you couldn't even use your sheild or else your sheild will be pressured till it breaks. Smash DI also rarely saves you from getting out of long damaging or death combos.

 

[JaimeHR]

Brawl + 64 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melee.