Gameplay: Brawl>64>Melee

[jimmyjoe]

It is a fact that Melee is more competititvely viable than Smash 64. I'm no expert on Smash 64, but I know enough to know this. Ask any 64 pro, and they will tell you that Melee has more depth, and every little detail that makes 64 less competitive than Melee..

It's unfair to compare how competitively viable 64 is to melee. 64 never had the time melee had to develop a scene. Melee gives you more options in given situations but many people play 64 at a high level and enjoy the danger of a system where a single mistake often costs you a stock.

 

[M.K]

I think what frustrates me is when people jump into the game IMMEDIATLY and look for little glitches and stupid "techniques" without even trying to play the game as intended.

This game has been out for just over a month, Melee has been out for SEVEN years, SSB64 has been out for NINE, and people are still debating them. It's sickening.

 

[Fletch]

@OP

This is one of the most idiotic posts I've seen here in a while, and with the amount of stupidity present in Brawl Discussion, that is pretty impressive. Talk to people like Isai that play both SSB64 and Melee competitively and they will tell you that Melee is a much deeper, involved game than SSB64. As for Brawl gameplay being better than those two, we're going to have to wait and see, but from the looks of it, it will pale in comparison to Melee.

 

[Yuna]

It's unfair to compare how competitively viable 64 is to melee. 64 never had the time melee had to develop a scene. Melee gives you more options in given situations but many people play 64 at a high level and enjoy the danger of a system where a single mistake often costs you a stock.

This matters how? How much depth and how competitively viable a game has is not determined by how many people play it or for how long they play.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Hey Yuna, I think you can find plenty of "Elitist Competitives" right here in this thread.

 

[Yuna]

Hey Yuna, I think you can find plenty of "Elitist Competitives" right here in this thread.

To be an elitist is to dismiss someone simply because of who they are and not what they say. I'd say there are tons of elitist casuals in here.

Not many people dismiss Casuals because they are Casuals but because of what they say. I always take the time to eloquently point out why I disagree with people and think they're wrong. I never just say "You're wrong because you're a Casual player!".

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Brawl has freaking WiFi. I am going to play Brawl far more than Melee can dream of for that reason alone, and it will allow me to develop skills I can take to real life Brawl tournaments.

 

[Burning Soul]

Brawl isn't even out in the states. Play the freaking game for longer than an hour before you freaking judge it.

SIGH

 

[M.K]

To be an elitist is to dismiss someone simply because of who they are and not what they say. I'd say there are tons of elitist casuals in here.

Not many people dismiss Casuals because they are Casuals but because of what they say. I always take the time to eloquently point out why I disagree with people and think they're wrong. I never just say "You're wrong because you're a Casual player!".

You do good with that, seriously. Some people take no time in how they bash people for what they believe in and how you should play the game. I think people associate Competitive people with competitive rules. For example, I know a couple people who actually like items, but since the tournament rules mostly ban them, they accept that and play that way. However, people STILL flame them for playing with no items. It's not their choice, it's how they need to play the game in order to compete.

Really, I respect you Yuna, because you are very respectful to other people's opinion. I find this quality hard to come by on Smash World Forums, and I take comfort knowing that there are still some people out there that can have an intelligent argument without flying off the handle or accusing people of misguided views.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

To be an elitist is to dismiss someone simply because of who they are and not what they say.

That's not what my dictionary says. You seem to want to warp what you believe to be "elitist" in order to absolve or disregard any instance of it you see.

"The belief of perceived superiority over persons or members of another group"

There is nothing stating that Elitism is only Elitism if you disregard them solely because of <reason>. So just because you're not disregarding what someone says solely because they're casual does not mean that what you're saying is not elitist.

"You sir are the worst kind of scrub. You are also a very poor troll. You don't understand anything about competitive Smash

Guess what loser, we're going to ruin Brawl for you too."

So, in this mans opinion OP is a "scrub", he's not hating him because he's casual, he's hating him because OP's opinion differs from his, and therefore he's a scrub. So, clearly he's not elitist, right? No, that doesn't absolve the horrible things he said to someone simply because he thinks that they're point of view is 'stupid' or 'scrubby'. It's terribly Elitist, "Your point of view is different from mine, therefore you don't understand anything about competitive Smash, and guess loser (oh boy, he's a loser too!), we're going to ruin the game for you"

 

[redgreenblue]

So like, who else is really pumped for sunday AMIRITE?

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

So like, who else is really pumped for sunday AMIRITE?

I'm so pumped I'm going to SLAM IT TO A SLIM JIM! >:O

 

[Yuna]

That's not what my dictionary says. You seem to want to warp what you believe to be "elitist" in order to absolve or disregard any instance of it you see.

"The belief of perceived superiority over persons or members of another group"

Yeah, find me a single quote where I say I'm superior to Casuals because they are Casuals.

I have said that the odds are in favour of the Competitive Players when a Competitive player plays a Casual ones because Competitive players go to tournament and have encountered things strictly Casual players probably haven't and should know of things the Casual players don't. That's just cold hard fact and logic.

I have repeatedly said that there is nothing wrong with being a Casual or losing because you are a Casual. You're a Casual player. You're not supposed to know everything about the game and win against anyone. And there's nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing stating that Elitism is only Elitism if you disregard them solely because of <reason>. So just because you're not disregarding what someone says solely because they're casual does not mean that what you're saying is not elitist.

"You sir are the worst kind of scrub. You are also a very poor troll. You don't understand anything about competitive Smash

Guess what loser, we're going to ruin Brawl for you too."

Nice way ot making it sound like I said something I didn't say.

So, in this mans opinion OP is a "scrub", he's not hating him because he's casual, he's hating him because OP's opinion differs from his, and therefore he's a scrub. So, clearly he's not elitist, right? No, that doesn't absolve the horrible things he said to someone simply because he thinks that they're point of view is 'stupid' or 'scrubby'

You clearly do not know the right definition of a scrub:
A Scrub is someone who not only categorically refuses to use things they deem "cheap" but also one who whines about it when others do... or who whine about it existing at all.

The OP is a blatant Scrub. It's not that his opinion differs or that he's a Casual, he's a scrub. It's like hating a racist if you're from an ethnic minority. It's not elitism, it's hating someone whose philosophy goes against everything you stand for (Competitive Play in this case).

The OP did not just say "I don't want to use ATs.", he insulted anyone who does. That's Scrub behavior and it's inexcusable.

Tons of Scrubs go onto these boards and others and whine about how ATs ruined Melee. I don't see how the fact that I use Float-Canceling when playing in tournies and against friends could possibly ruin the fun of people who never ever come in contact with people who use ATs.

 

[DarkKyanite]

yuna wins
10char

 

[redgreenblue]

I'm so pumped I'm going to SLAM IT TO A SLIM JIM! >:O

Guy, Smash Brothers is going to be sooooo ****ing intense CHRIST I WANT TO INJECT IT INTO MY EYEBALLS AH

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Guy, Smash Brothers is going to be sooooo ****ing intense CHRIST I WANT TO INJECT IT INTO MY EYEBALLS AH

 

[soviet prince]

I think Brawl will still be competive without the AT. The better player will still beat the worser( don't think thats a word :D) player they just have to learn new tricks.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm so pumped I'm going to SLAM IT TO A SLIM JIM! >:O

**** YES!!!!!

 

[Koga]

@soviet Prince

That's the wrong definition of competative for these boards. To be competative smash the game has to require you to push fifty buttons to execute simple combos and outmanuver your opponent, since the game's strategy isn't button intensive and rather spacing and attack choice based now, its not competative.[/sarcasam]

that's the answer im supposed to give

 

[OrlanduEX]

"You sir are the worst kind of scrub. You are also a very poor troll. You don't understand anything about competitive Smash

Guess what loser, we're going to ruin Brawl for you too."

So, in this mans opinion OP is a "scrub", he's not hating him because he's casual, he's hating him because OP's opinion differs from his, and therefore he's a scrub. So, clearly he's not elitist, right? No, that doesn't absolve the horrible things he said to someone simply because he thinks that they're point of view is 'stupid' or 'scrubby'. It's terribly Elitist, "Your point of view is different from mine, therefore you don't understand anything about competitive Smash, and guess loser (oh boy, he's a loser too!), we're going to ruin the game for you"

Way to fail there, buddy.

First of all, I don't hate the guy because his opinion is different from mine. I don't hate him at all in fact.
But I don't think that it's hard to see that the person I was responding to DOESN'T UNDERSTAND COMPETITIVE SMASH. This is not because he is a scrub. It is because his post made it evident. He suggests that we are wrong for "abusing glitches", "not playing the game the way it was intended", and even for "playing the game at a high level".
What kind of BS is this? Who gave him the right to dictate how WE play Smash Bros.? I don't wrong him for preferring his way of Smash over mine, but he is an idiot for dictating that his way is superior.
He is most certainly a loser and a scrub. I am not an elitist for responding negatively to an idiotic post. When I said "we're going to ruin Brawl for you too", I meant to sarcastically imply that we are going to play Brawl competitively as well. We don't care that you don't like the way we play. If it bothers you so much that we played Melee at a high level, well prepared to be bothered some more. That's what I meant.

Please stop throwing around the word Elitist to anyone who opposes idiotic posts. If you can't see how this poster was wrong here and how HE is in fact an elitist, then I suppose this whole post was a waste.

 

[Thingy Person]

If this is a troll, then don't feed it.
He tried to make a flame topic. It worked.
Stop going for the bait, just ban this sick filth and move on. Not that threads like these are rare, though.

 

[Yuna]

@soviet Prince

That's the wrong definition of competative for these boards. To be competative smash the game has to require you to push fifty buttons to execute simple combos and outmanuver your opponent, since the game's strategy isn't button intensive and rather spacing and attack choice based now, its not competative.[/sarcasam]

that's the answer im supposed to give

All of your previous posts pale in comparison to this does.

Does anyone oppose me flaming this guy?

 

[OrlanduEX]

@soviet Prince

That's the wrong definition of competative for these boards. To be competative smash the game has to require you to push fifty buttons to execute simple combos and outmanuver your opponent, since the game's strategy isn't button intensive and rather spacing and attack choice based now, its not competative.[/sarcasam]

that's the answer im supposed to give

You know, no one said that Brawl couldn't be played competitively. What some people are saying, though, is that due to the inherent limitation in Brawl's very design, it will prove LESS competitive than Melee. I don't think that this is an unreasonable induction.

And being competitive in Smash doesn't mean that you push fifty buttons or whatever. It means that you are willing to do everything that you can to be the best that you can be. If learning to press 50 buttons in a long sequence is what is necessary to improve, competitive players will do it.

 

[NES n00b]

All of your previous posts pale in comparison to this does.

Does anyone oppose me flaming this guy?

No, but please keep the logic in the for front.

Kogo, it doesn't mater how many buttons are pushed, but what the options are. Usually, the more options equals the most depth though it depends on what options and on how much the options are truly useful. Wavedashing didn't destroy other tatics therefore, it added depth. It was removed so it removed depth. Getting rid of wavedashing and other things (dash dancing? wtf?) doesn't add depth unless it was an overpowering tatic or it got replaced with something else with as much or more depth. None of these things seem to be the case.

Really, I am going to play this game, but making strawmen arguements like that makes the negative nancies justified, because well, you didn't actually refute their arguements. You have to prove it the old fashion way. Logic with evidence supporting it. No johns.

Edit: **** wrong dude. My bad. ^_^

 

[Miharu]

No, but please keep the logic in the for front.

Kage, it doesn't mater how many buttons are pushed, but what the options are. Usually, the more options equals the most depth though it depends on what options and on how much the options are truly useful. Wavedashing didn't destroy other tatics therefore, it added depth. It was removed so it removed depth. Getting rid of wavedashing and other things (dash dancing? wtf?) doesn't add depth unless it was an overpowering tatic or it got replaced with something else with as much or more depth. None of these things seem to be the case.

Really, I am going to play this game, but making strawmen arguements like that makes the negative nancies justified, because well, you didn't actually refute their arguements. You have to prove it the old fashion way. Logic with evidence supporting it. No johns.

Koga. Not Kage. Zz.

 

[malva00]

Talk to people like Isai that play both SSB64 and Melee competitively and they will tell you that Melee is a much deeper, involved game than SSB64.

what a b00b

 

[OrlanduEX]

what a b00b

Please clarify who exactly you're calling a b00b and why so that we may argue against you.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Please clarify who exactly you're calling a b00b and why so that we may argue against you.

Do you even know who malva00 is?

 

[NES n00b]

Please clarify who exactly you're calling a b00b and why so that we may argue against you.

Because Isai is scrub *** guy who johns alot that is why.

 

[Tek32]

Posting to say anyone preaching to the topic creator about competitive Smash;

Don't even bother. Sure it means that a lot of people who use the glitches (yes they are glitches that can be exploited by players,) but that doesn't mean anyone else isn't "competitive" when it comes to Smash Brothers.

Competitive Smash Brothers is all about the mind-set in which the player has. If you aim to be competitive, that only means that the person is generally accepting of challenges and aims to win. That's really all there is too it, and if you want my opinion, here it is;

Anyone who claims to be competitive and disregards ANYTHING anyone else has to say because they may play (with items, play without wave dashing, and etc) in a different way, and dismiss them of playing competitively, needs to shut up.

Secondly, any player who calls anyone exploiting the glitches "cheating" also need to shut up. I'll agree, it probably wasn't meant to be embedded in the game, but players often feel they must USE these exploits to their advantage to win, and that in and of itself, is just something we do in everyday life.

 

[maxieman]

I own SSB64... I still play it when my friends are over

 

[Koga]

You know, no one said that Brawl couldn't be played competitively. What some people are saying, though, is that due to the inherent limitation in Brawl's very design, it will prove LESS competitive than Melee. I don't think that this is an unreasonable induction.

And being competitive in Smash doesn't mean that you push fifty buttons or whatever. It means that you are willing to do everything that you can to be the best that you can be. If learning to press 50 buttons in a long sequence is what is necessary to improve, competitive players will do it.

I understand completely what you're saying, Its just alot of people say its not competative because it lacks things from melee that make melee competative, most notably the button intensive strategies.

a player being competative doesn't require buttons, but to alot of the upper echelon member's of this board say the elements missing from brawl make it less competative and i have to ask: how so? How does the lacking of the requirement to push a button to cancel the lag on arials make it less competative when there are still ways to cancel the lag from arials? does it have to be the same method as the previous game to still be competative?

yes, we have not yet found an advanced movement tech for brawl (what wavedashing was for Melee), yes the combo's are different, they still exist so why complain about that? Shffling still exists so why complain about that? Yes its a little floaty but this just changes the kind of combo's we have to do. These are all the arguments that all the anti-brawl people say make it less competative. I just have to ask why? none of these things detract from the competativness of Smash. Its like they just say it does and it becomes truth, its like if i said the character models are what make smash competative and since the same character models aren't in brawl its now less competative. That just doesn't make any sense.

@yuna

Flaming is against the rules that you are supposed to enforce, please don't engage in such activity, you have a position of trust

 

[OrlanduEX]

Do you even know who malva00 is?

Nope. Educate me, please.

Also, my post count is now 666, THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST! HELL AND FIRE WAS SPAWNED TO BE RELEASED!

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Brawl> Melee> 64.

Duh.

64 was really lame and I really didn't like it.

 

[maxieman]

Sacrifiiiiiice Is Going On Toniiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhht

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

I really don't see why people are saying Brawl, at the moment, is less competitive then Melee. You're still fighting to out stock the other guy and they even give you more incentives to out perform someone with throwing up smash balls, dragoons, and ATs for anyone to grasp.

Yeah, they're going to be tourny banned but still...

Just because you can't drill shine SHFFL shine someone into oblivion anymore doesn't mean Brawl got Noobed to Pwnagville. :/

I got by just fine with Liink and a utter lack of wavedashing. Of course I L-canceled a D-air, course I shffl'd my n-air but I never really NEEDED to.

I beat plenty of pillar loving Fox's and Falco's with out the need of so-called advanced techs. Like Tekken, DOA, or even Guilty Gear, it's more important to have the coordination and reaction time. I doubt you'll be able to shffl with out it anyway.

Then again, not saying I didn't get served on a silver platter once or twice by C. Falcon moon walker. Just saying certain fundamentals like an understanding of range, priority, and play style legibility will get you far in nearly any fighting game.

 

[NES n00b]

Read my quote

I thought I made it clear it was Isai. >.>

 

[Yuna]

Nope. Educate me, please.

malva00 is, in fact, Isai himself.

 

[Deleted member]

Less glitches does not equal less competitive.

In most games glitches are frowned upon and eventually patched out.

The game offers plenty of depth and competition playing it the way it was designed. Brawl is Brawl.

If you like Melee so ****ing much, keep playing it and shut up. I hated Melee, so I didn't play it. I still play Smash 64 to this day, and guess what? You can do the same with Melee.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Sacrifiiiiiice Is Going On Toniiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhht

Iron Maiden reference FTW

stuff

The lack of advanced techs in Brawl are not really what make it appear less competitive. It is the game mechanics themselves. For example, everyone suffers less hitstun, so comboing in general has been nerfed.
Shields are now super effective against all attacks, so turtling will become a much more viable strategy, and turtling isn't that competitive.
Everyone's recovery is great now, so no one has to fight to recover like they did in Melee.
The lack of a means of removing lag from aerials slows the game down and makes some characters like Ganondorf and Bowser considerably less capable of competing with characters with low lag aerials like Marth.
These are some of the things people are noticing that seem to prevent Brasl from reaching the level of depth that Melee did.

I thought I made it clear it was Isai. >.>

I feel dumb