Gameplay: Brawl>64>Melee

[P.E]

why am i the only one who loves 0 to death combos, huge chains and really powerful characters along with Z-Cancelling and hitstun
well anyway i believe that 64 allowed you to be more artistic than melee

Actually I like 64 because of these things. That´s why I´m not sure if Brawl is going to be my number one Smash Bros game but Brawl makes a very good impression so far. The problem I have with 64 though is the character balance. Kirby is just awesome and only Pikachu can fight him properly (and maybe Link if he can keep Kirby at distance, but as soon as he gets off the stage he´s done for).

 

[GhostAnime]

Smash 64 was balanced? ROFL. That's why Kirby is pretty much the only character worth using in that game, right?

search Isai's Pikachu on youtube. you will change your mind.

SSB is arguably more balanced than SSBM.

 

[P.E]

How so?


Let me reword this, Smash 64 is more balanced than Melee. Better? Neither Smash 64 or Melee are very balanced games when it comes from a standpoint of comparing it to other fighting games, but Melee was just a rushed mess with a lot of good ideas that turned into glitches like wavedashing (equivalent to the infinite dragon punch in the Hokuto no Ken arcade game). Smash 64 wasn't this, it had its flaws, but every fighting game does. Melee has even more flaws so I'd say Smash 64 is a lot better than Melee.

Everyone knows (or should know) that no fighting game is balanced, ever. The only one closest to it was Street Fighter II which is basically why it's considered the greatest fighting game ever.

I could say all of that plus even more about Melee too so what the hell is your point?

I've been playing Smash 64 and Melee for years now and still do, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

I agree. And now that you mention Street Fighter II, I´ve got to add something. In my opinion you can´t be a Street Fighter fan without enjoying SF2. It may be not as deep as SF3 (I don´t say it really is!) but it´s about mind games and kind of "pure" SF-gameplay. Therefore so called Smash Bros fans who insult the original Smash Bros are just ignorant in my opinion.

 

[GhostAnime]

glitches like wavedashing (equivalent to the infinite dragon punch in the Hokuto no Ken arcade game).

can you tell me how theyre comparable in curiousity?

 

[Team Giza]

Smash 64 was balanced? ROFL. That's why Kirby is pretty much the only character worth using in that game, right? That's why it's full of cheap *** infinite combos and spikes, right? That's why everyone but Kirby has a crappy recovery in that game, right?

Actually I believe Pikachu is considered to be the best in SSB64. And no I do not think that SSB64 has much over Melee in terms of balance. Usually I just see Kirby, Ness, Fox and Pikachu beasting and occasionally I see Isai play other characters.

I agree. And now that you mention Street Fighter II, I´ve got to add something. In my opinion you can´t be a Street Fighter fan without enjoying SF2. It may be not as deep as SF3 (I don´t say it really is!) but it´s about mind games and kind of "pure" SF-gameplay. Therefore so called Smash Bros fans who insult the original Smash Bros are just ignorant in my opinion.

I think that is stupid. So if you don't like the first popular installment of the series you aren't a fan? I dislike the first Bloody Roar but I am a Bloody Roar fan (and I love Primal Fury). Doesn't mean I am not a fan of the series just cause you don't like the first popular part of that series.

 

[P.E]

Ugghh, its like talking to a brick wall. you guys just say something and say that it is true and that you have given specifics but you haven't...

...as long as he was playing the game to see how much it wasn't like melee, he failed at analyzing the game.

You´re right.

 

[ph00tbag]

Smash 64 had 15 items, no trophies, 9 stages and 12 characters.

Even with such a small amount of stuff, they still managed to make a ridiculously unbalanced game. Don't believe me? Look at the hitboxes, damage and knockback of Pikachu's moves. Then look at its recovery. Also, look at the shieldhitstun, which was so long that you could safely pressure a shield for several seconds, and still grab without your opponent being able to escape. Many characters could literally infinite your shield. You couldn't even spotdodge to avoid grabs.

This, with the ridiculous hitstun and horrendous DI, made it so that characters who were already bad were even easier to combo to death. I have actually played the 64 version, and do so regularly, and I am amazed at how easy it is to win by just picking Kirby and waiting for my opponent to screw up.

 

[Thino]

Actually I believe Pikachu is considered to be the best in SSB64. And no I do not think that SSB64 has much over Melee in terms of balance. Usually I just see Kirby, Ness, Fox and Pikachu beasting and occasionally I see Isai play other characters.

a very good Falcon or Link or even Samus or Mario can destroy a good Pika or Kirby. don't trust videos on youtube

 

[Koga]

Where did you get this idea that Brawl is so different from Melee that they shouldn't be compared? Yea they changed A LOT of things, but guess what: THE FUNDAMENTAL MECHANICS ARE THE SAME.
We aren't comparing the moon and the Earth here. It's more like comparing one city on Earth to another. Is that not reasonable?

No one is saying that there are no changes for the better. We are acknowledging, however, that many changes seem to be for the worst. That is fair.

And how does playing the game not give you credibility? Comparing Brawl to Melee is not unreasonable. Nintendo didn't reinvent the wheel here.

Also, sorry for the double post.

I don't think they're so different, i understand the fundamental aspects of the game are the same. However, everyone that has played the game keeps suggesting how things got nerfed in relation to how they preformed in melee. That is not accurate. Just because we don't have the combo's we had from melee doesn't mean combo's were nerfed, they were just changed, they are no longer a string of inescapable moves preformed by one character. They are now an intricate dance of action and reaction techniques much in the same way a judo bout is judged.

Sure edgeguarding might not work the same but that doesn't mean that it was nerfed just because its Not exactly the same as it was in Melee Edgehogging is easier and so is ledgehopping to gain those invincibility frames.

and the lack of credibility comes from his postion that since the deep game mechanics don't function in exactly the same way they did in melee and are therefore nerfed->brawl isn't deep.

this is a fallacy of logic, the game is just too inherently deep. The aspects of the game you mentioned are still there they just serve different roles and function in different ways, whats so hard to see about this? Why don't you seem to understand a word i say when its all ground in solid logic?

everything you guys say about brawl's aspects is like saying "water is nerfed" after drinking soda for the first time. They serve different purposes and you cant say one is better than the other. Its like saying "apples are nerfed in real life" after eating an orange, they serfe different purposes, so don't compare them like you are.

 

[NES n00b]

a very good Falcon or Link or even Samus or Mario can destroy a good Pika or Kirby. don't trust videos on youtube

Link, Samus, or Mario? No. Falcon it is possible and on Dreamland actually quite probable, but Link and Samus are just garbage characters. PURE garbage. Mario is not that great and he will get beat, too. Stop watching Isai vids or random person against random person.

Why do I say SSB 64 is a low budget mess? Cause it has really broken in game mechanics and was a really low budget game. Low poly, little detail, 2d sprites are used everywhere.

The game was fun, but seriously, it isn't superior to Melee at any technical terms. You can prefer it because well that is your opinion, but it isn't in anyway superior. =\

Edit: You can't ledgehop while you have invincibility frames. Just giving you the heads up.

 

[Deleted member]

Link, Samus, or Mario? No. Falcon it is possible and on Dreamland actually quite probable, but Link and Samus are just garbage characters. PURE garbage. Mario is not that great and he will get beat, too. Stop watching Isai vids or random person against random person.

Why do I say SSB 64 is a low budget mess? Cause it has really broken in game mechanics and was a really low budget game. Low poly, little detail, 2d sprites are used everywhere.

The game was fun, but seriously, it isn't superior to Melee at any technical terms. You can prefer it because well that is your opinion, but it isn't in anyway superior. =\

Thank you for making it painfully obvious how little you know about Smash Bros. 64. We now know to disregard your uneducated thoughts.

 

[NES n00b]

Thank you for making it painfully obvious how little you know about Smash Bros. 64. We now know to disregard your uneducated thoughts.

LOL?

The one who said he didn't Z cancel then said ha it was a joke? Why don't you tell me how a Link whos up b is smaller than his second jump with a long time to sweetspot, not spammable grab, easily comboed, and no priority is supposed to beat Pikachus, Kirbys, and Foxes. With magic? Maybe a wizard or Isai can do it, but please explain that. Or maybe the no recovery or combo wonder that is Samus.

PS. You always seem to actually not make arguements I noticed. More just baseless assertions or opinions presented as facts e.g. I don't like things in Melee therefore Smash 64 is better in every way.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL?

The one who said he didn't Z cancel then said ha it was a joke? Why don't you tell me how a Link whos up b is smaller than his second jump with a long time to sweetspot, not spammable grab, easily comboed, and no priority is supposed to beat Pikachus, Kirbys, and Foxes. With magic? Maybe a wizard or Isai can do it, but please explain that. Or maybe the no recovery or combo wonder that is Samus.

Samus does suck, I'll give you that. But I was referring to many other things you said. We could argue in circles but it's just a waste of my time.

And yes, I was trolling with my Z-Canceling comment, welcome to Smash Boards.

 

[Lant]

He's correct, you're being stubborn if you disagree.

From a gameplay point of view, Smash 64 is vastly superior to Melee, the engine that's used in Melee is a mess from a game dev's perspective. Look at the amount of unintended things that arose from it, wavedashing and the like. Smash is not meant to be played how it is in Melee, aerial combat was one of the main features about the game.

That doesn't mean Melee is a bad game by any stretch of the imagination, and some of you bring up valid points with the exploits you can do in 64, but the fact remains.

Brawl>64>Melee.

I've been playing Smash 64 tons recently, on a side note, so I think I'm informed enough.

In the end, gameplay is a vague term, I interpret as "the way the devs deisgned it to be played", which Melee isn't at all. Melee is played professionally by abusing game mechanics as much as possible, if you think that's good gameplay then you're clearly misinformed.

[/rant]

 

[Zankoku]

And the devs designed Smash 64 to be a game where if played at its best, a single hit eventually leads to an unavoidable string of hits resulting in a KO? Or was it designed to be played as 2-minute time matches with all items on normal?

Claiming to know how the makers of the game wanted the game to be played is just stupid.

 

[Deleted member]

And the devs designed Smash 64 to be a game where if played at its best, a single hit eventually leads to an unavoidable string of hits resulting in a KO? Or was it designed to be played as 2-minute time matches with all items on normal?

Claiming to know how the makers of the game wanted the game to be played is just stupid.

It's called common sense.

 

[NES n00b]

In the end, gameplay is a vague term, I interpret as "the way the devs deisgned it to be played", which Melee isn't at all. Melee is played professionally by abusing game mechanics as much as possible, if you think that's good gameplay then you're clearly misinformed.

Why does it matter how the dev intended it to be in terms of how great the game it? Look at Smash 64 again. Sheilds had too much hit stun to use, Smash DI was the only way to escape combos without another object, and all sorts of other messes.

If Ocarina of Time was supposed to be played in a different way than the whole world played it (I don't know like you are supposed to only talk to Kokiri people or something) would it be any worse of a game since all of this good unintended stuff came out of it? I mean, by this definition, Street Fighter 2: Turbo is a terrible game because of infinites, combos (that's right, unintentional oh noes), and certain moves that are better than expected (Sonic boom is a really good projectile >.>).

Edit: Ok, you must be trolling. You must be.

 

[Zankoku]

It's called common sense.

Common sense tells me the game was designed without any competitive play in mind, as a simple party game where one to four people could select their favorite Nintendo characters and beat the living **** out of each other on a bunch of cool stages with destructive hazards for fun and laughs all around. Am I wrong?

 

[Deleted member]

Common sense tells me the game was designed without any competitive play in mind, as a simple party game where one to four people could select their favorite Nintendo characters and beat the living **** out of each other on a bunch of cool stages with destructive hazards for fun and laughs all around. Am I wrong?

Nope, you aren't. And it's funtastic.

 

[Zankoku]

Nope, you aren't. And it's funtastic.

Until it gets old. If I wanted to play that kind of game for more than the span of a week, I'd likely be just as entertained by a random integer generator. I figure Sakurai's statement of "playing the game the way you want to play it" holds much more meaning to it.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I don't think they're so different, i understand the fundamental aspects of the game are the same. However, everyone that has played the game keeps suggesting how things got nerfed in relation to how they preformed in melee. That is not accurate. Just because we don't have the combo's we had from melee doesn't mean combo's were nerfed, they were just changed, they are no longer a string of inescapable moves preformed by one character. They are now an intricate dance of action and reaction techniques much in the same way a judo bout is judged.

Sure edgeguarding might not work the same but that doesn't mean that it was nerfed just because its Not exactly the same as it was in Melee Edgehogging is easier and so is ledgehopping to gain those invincibility frames.

and the lack of credibility comes from his postion that since the deep game mechanics don't function in exactly the same way they did in melee and are therefore nerfed->brawl isn't deep.

this is a fallacy of logic, the game is just too inherently deep. The aspects of the game you mentioned are still there they just serve different roles and function in different ways, whats so hard to see about this? Why don't you seem to understand a word i say when its all ground in solid logic?

everything you guys say about brawl's aspects is like saying "water is nerfed" after drinking soda for the first time. They serve different purposes and you cant say one is better than the other. Its like saying "apples are nerfed in real life" after eating an orange, they serfe different purposes, so don't compare them like you are.

You are just too optimistic. How do you know that combos are now an " intricate dance of action and reaction techniques much in the same way a judo bout is judged"? You haven't even played the game at all. You are HOPING it turns out this way. It is much more sensible to argue however that since there is less hit stun in the game that combos will not work very well at all for most characters and thus that they got nerfed. How can you not see the logic in this?

Edge hogging mis easier to do fine. But guess what? Since everyone's recovery is so much better now, it doesn't matter! It is less useful now anyway.

How do you know how inherently deep Brawl is? What if it is not very deep at all? Is this impossible?

And we are not comparing apples and oranges here. We are comparing granny smith apples to golden delicious ones.

 

[Deleted member]

I HAVE played it, and he's right. You're too pessimistic.

 

[MookieRah]

Ok guys. Nobody can estimate the total depth of Brawl. Seriously. I know a lot of the arguments Yuna and others make, yet when I see videos of competitive tournaments there isn't this over abundance of camping. Yeah, by strict theory game it seems like it will become that way, and it may still, but if that is the case how come it's not already prevalent? It's not like we weren't predicting it to be a camp fest prior to it's release in Japan (hell, I was on that band wagon at the time) so if camping is so overpowered how come nobody has resorted to doing it so far?

For those who are arguing against it. Most of you aren't very competitive minded players. A lot of you wouldn't resort to camping even if the game devolved to camping in the competitive setting. The few of you that would adhere to competitive play are so few and far between and overshadowed by all of the current higher ups in the competitive world to take as seriously.

Brawl is still in it's early stages. We've discovered a lot of things early on and now things trickle in much slower. We discovered the things in Brawl at the speed that we did because we knew what to look for on the basis of melee, but there could be a lot of other things that don't fit that bill that could be discovered and applied well in matches in the future. It's simply foolish to make claims that we discovered all there is to the game at such a stage. Should we assume that it will and Brawl will be as deep as melee in the future? Should we assume that it won't and that Brawl will never be deep? That is left up to you to decide for yourself; however, lets give the game some more time before we assert opinions as fact.

@ShadowXOR
For someone being anti-competitive when it comes to melee, you act more irate, sarcastic, and condescending than the people you hate for being irate, sarcastic, and condescending to you. What exactly do you hope to do when you make posts aside from annoying people? You rarely ever actually debate, you just tell people they are wrong and your opinions are right without really backing things up. Whenever someone does argue against your views you go after something completely unrelated.

 

[Deleted member]

@ShadowXOR
For someone being anti-competitive when it comes to melee, you act more irate, sarcastic, and condescending than the people you hate for being irate, sarcastic, and condescending to you. What exactly do you hope to do when you make posts aside from annoying people? You rarely ever actually debate, you just tell people they are wrong and your opinions are right without really backing things up. Whenever someone does argue against your views you go after something completely unrelated.

That just shows how little you know about me or my opinions. I'm not anti-competitive at all and have been to and plan on going to more tourneys. Even in my own personal games I play by tourney rules the majority of the time.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm not anti-competitive at all and have been to and plan on going to more tourneys.

I worded that bad, I meant anti competitive scene of melee, not so much anti-competitive in every game you play. You seem to have a vendetta against Melee in general. There is nothing wrong with disliking it, it's just that your arguments are not sound.

 

[Deleted member]

I worded that bad, I meant anti competitive scene of melee, not so much anti-competitive in every game you play. You seem to have a vendetta against Melee in general. There is nothing wrong with disliking it, it's just that your arguments are not sound.

I just don't like Melee as a game, I'm not anti-competitive Melee, I just think it's a bad/boring game.

And that's my opinion that can't be proven wrong, just as I can't prove people wrong who enjoy it.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Ok guys. Nobody can estimate the total depth of Brawl. Seriously. I know a lot of the arguments Yuna and others make, yet when I see videos of competitive tournaments there isn't this over abundance of camping. Yeah, by strict theory game it seems like it will become that way, and it may still, but if that is the case how come it's not already prevalent? It's not like we weren't predicting it to be a camp fest prior to it's release in Japan (hell, I was on that band wagon at the time) so if camping is so overpowered how come nobody has resorted to doing it so far?

For those who are arguing against it. Most of you aren't very competitive minded players. A lot of you wouldn't resort to camping even if the game devolved to camping in the competitive setting. The few of you that would adhere to competitive play are so few and far between and overshadowed by all of the current higher ups in the competitive world to take as seriously.

Brawl is still in it's early stages. We've discovered a lot of things early on and now things trickle in much slower. We discovered the things in Brawl at the speed that we did because we knew what to look for on the basis of melee, but there could be a lot of other things that don't fit that bill that could be discovered and applied well in matches in the future. It's simply foolish to make claims that we discovered all there is to the game at such a stage. Should we assume that it will and Brawl will be as deep as melee in the future? Should we assume that it won't and that Brawl will never be deep? That is left up to you to decide for yourself; however, lets give the game some more time before we assert opinions as fact.
.

I agree that we don't know enough about Brawl to write it off, but no one is claiming that we already know everything that there is to know. Some such as Yuna and M2K are just arguing that based on what facts we have accumulated that Brawl may not turn out as competitive as Melee. I don't think that this is an illogical or indefensible induction.

 

[Doctor X]

I just don't like Melee as a game, I'm not anti-competitive Melee, I just think it's a bad/boring game.

And that's my opinion that can't be proven wrong, just as I can't prove people wrong who enjoy it.

Sure, you can't prove them wrong 100%, but opinions aren't worth much on their own for the purposes of debate. Nobody has any reason to agree with you besides personal experience, unless you bring in some facts.

This is how debate works. If you don't like it, then stop being so vocal unless you can back your argument up with something more solid.

 

[Deleted member]

Sure, you can't prove them wrong 100%, but opinions aren't worth much on their own for the purposes of debate. Nobody has any reason to agree with you besides personal experience, unless you bring in some facts.

This is how debate works. If you don't like it, then stop being so vocal unless you can back your argument up with something more solid.

I've played Brawl, I've played Melee, I still play 64.

That's more experience than 99.9% of people on these "forums" and my opinion (just like the thread title) is Brawl > 64 > Melee.

 

[Thino]

Link, Samus, or Mario? No. Falcon it is possible and on Dreamland actually quite probable, but Link and Samus are just garbage characters. PURE garbage. Mario is not that great and he will get beat, too. Stop watching Isai vids or random person against random person.

Why do I say SSB 64 is a low budget mess? Cause it has really broken in game mechanics and was a really low budget game. Low poly, little detail, 2d sprites are used everywhere.

The game was fun, but seriously, it isn't superior to Melee at any technical terms. You can prefer it because well that is your opinion, but it isn't in anyway superior. =\

Edit: You can't ledgehop while you have invincibility frames. Just giving you the heads up.

I dont spend my time watching ssb64 vids , I play it online.
samus is one of the few characters in ssb64 that can actually SHFFL all her aerials and pressure shields to death with them.
she got no combo but she sure racks up damage fast.

and you dont need to be Isai to have an amazing projectile game with Link, it aint that hard,along with a good use of his utilt that cover a wide range around him and has a disjointed hitbox of course , tech-chased usmash that produces so much shield lag it leaves the opponent open for a ftilt , a dsmash, or even a grab etc... , SH dairs have a surprisingly good priority plus u can spam them so when ur opponent generally shields the 1st one , he gets hit by the 2nd or 3rd hit.regardless of being pika , fox or kirby , if u dont pressure a good link player u'll get *****.... badly.

its very far from a marth vs pichu matchup or a fox vs kirby in melee

sweetspot takes time? ur just doin it too early
spammable grabs? seriously at what level are you playing this game if you're still spamming grabs?

so i guess there are many magician or wizards on kaillera.

what about you? what are you basing yourself on to say that samus and link are garbage chars? I dont like making assumptions but if you do play it ,online or on n64 , then you should play better people.
other than that you dont know what you're talking about.

my point being that a good ssb64 samus has less chance to be 4-stocked by a ssb64 pika than a melee kirby against a marth.

you can do whatever ranking you want brawl>64>melee , melee>brawl>64 etc...and melee is more technical ok.but this statement still remains true , ssb64 is more balanced than melee for the exact reasons people stated in the previous posts: huge hitstun , poor DI , huge shieldlag...they give chance to characters like DK ,Link and Samus

Edit: You can't ledgehop while you have invincibility frames. Just giving you the heads up.

false.

 

[Chillaxin]

P.E. u suck balls and more

u just cant do the advanced techniques so u say that ppl who use them are just abusing the game.

Its about playing whatever's available to you in the game.

 

[NES n00b]

I dont spend my time watching ssb64 vids , I play it online.
samus is one of the few characters in ssb64 that can actually SHFFL all her aerials and pressure shields to death with them.
she got no combo but she sure racks up damage fast.

and you dont need to be Isai to have an amazing projectile game with Link, it aint that hard,along with a good use of his utilt that cover a wide range around him and has a disjointed hitbox of course , tech-chased usmash that produces so much shield lag it leaves the opponent open for a ftilt , a dsmash, or even a grab etc... , SH dairs have a surprisingly good priority plus u can spam them so when ur opponent generally shields the 1st one , he gets hit by the 2nd or 3rd hit.regardless of being pika , fox or kirby , if u dont pressure a good link player u'll get *****.... badly.

What? These characters are bad. Just plain bad. You don't need to be a genious to know that Kirby and Pikachu are much better than these characters in almost everyway.

its very far from a marth vs pichu matchup or a fox vs kirby in melee

This is arguable, but it might be true it is more balanced for sure. Still isn't that close to balance.

sweetspot takes time? ur just doin it too early
spammable grabs? seriously at what level are you playing this game if you're still spamming grabs?

With Link, you do an up b, he has to spin around awhile before he can grab the ledge. Please, try upbing near the edge to see. It is like Melee except he has loses vertical height by the freaken time he grabs the edge. Sweetspotting with almost any character is impossible unless you are Pikachu. Otherwise, your recovery is too garbage to sweetspot or your recovery time is better spent not going towards the edge (well, you can sweetspot with Ness too but it is much harder to do than Pkachu).

so i guess there are many magician or wizards on kaillera.

I guess. Or your playing Sensei and Isai way too much.

what about you? what are you basing yourself on to say that samus and link are garbage chars? I dont like making assumptions but if you do play it ,online or on n64 , then you should play better people.
other than that you dont know what you're talking about.

Those two are the worst characters in the game yes. One of them actually loses vertical height before he can grab the stage. That is just plain sad.

my point being that a good ssb64 samus has less chance to be 4-stocked by a ssb64 pika than a melee kirby against a marth.

you can do whatever ranking you want brawl>64>melee , melee>brawl>64 etc...and melee is more technical ok.but this statement still remains true , ssb64 is more balanced than melee for the exact reasons people stated in the previous posts: huge hitstun , poor DI , huge shieldlag...they give chance to characters like DK ,Link and Samus

Smash 64 is still no way in the stretch of the imagination that balanced. I have to ask what are you basing this off of? Sure a Link might have a better chance against a Kirby than he does a Fox in Melee, but what makes you think he can actually make it at the highest level of play.

false.

You have to wait awhile before you can ledgehop. At least that is true.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Actually I believe Pikachu is considered to be the best in SSB64. And no I do not think that SSB64 has much over Melee in terms of balance. Usually I just see Kirby, Ness, Fox and Pikachu beasting and occasionally I see Isai play other characters.

you aren't playing or watching other good players then...

I have actually played the 64 version, and do so regularly, and I am amazed at how easy it is to win by just picking Kirby and waiting for my opponent to screw up.

Play better players...

I dont spend my time watching ssb64 vids , I play it online.
samus is one of the few characters in ssb64 that can actually SHFFL all her aerials and pressure shields to death with them.
she got no combo but she sure racks up damage fast.

and you dont need to be Isai to have an amazing projectile game with Link, it aint that hard,along with a good use of his utilt that cover a wide range around him and has a disjointed hitbox of course , tech-chased usmash that produces so much shield lag it leaves the opponent open for a ftilt , a dsmash, or even a grab etc... , SH dairs have a surprisingly good priority plus u can spam them so when ur opponent generally shields the 1st one , he gets hit by the 2nd or 3rd hit.regardless of being pika , fox or kirby , if u dont pressure a good link player u'll get *****.... badly.

its very far from a marth vs pichu matchup or a fox vs kirby in melee

sweetspot takes time? ur just doin it too early
spammable grabs? seriously at what level are you playing this game if you're still spamming grabs?

so i guess there are many magician or wizards on kaillera.

what about you? what are you basing yourself on to say that samus and link are garbage chars? I dont like making assumptions but if you do play it ,online or on n64 , then you should play better people.
other than that you dont know what you're talking about.

my point being that a good ssb64 samus has less chance to be 4-stocked by a ssb64 pika than a melee kirby against a marth.

you can do whatever ranking you want brawl>64>melee , melee>brawl>64 etc...and melee is more technical ok.but this statement still remains true , ssb64 is more balanced than melee for the exact reasons people stated in the previous posts: huge hitstun , poor DI , huge shieldlag...they give chance to characters like DK ,Link and Samus

false.

Thank you for typing this.

 

[Yuna]

search Isai's Pikachu on youtube. you will change your mind.

SSB is arguably more balanced than SSBM.

Why would it change his mind? Pikachu is the best character in the game. Of course videos of Isai playing him would be flashy and really impressive.

I agree. And now that you mention Street Fighter II, I´ve got to add something. In my opinion you can´t be a Street Fighter fan without enjoying SF2. It may be not as deep as SF3 (I don´t say it really is!) but it´s about mind games and kind of "pure" SF-gameplay. Therefore so called Smash Bros fans who insult the original Smash Bros are just ignorant in my opinion.

I call bovine manure on that. Do you love the very first game in every single gaming franchise you're a fan of? If not, you're obviously not a true fan!

The very first Street Fighter II was campy, turtly, reaaaaally slow and limited and broken (anything into tick throw). Yes, SF2 has infinitely less depth than SFIII: 3rd Strike because SF2 came out way before 3rd Strike.

All videogames is about mindgames. It's just that how much you can mindgame depends on how much you can do in the game. SF2 has much less mindgames than SF3.

We do not insult SSB64. We just don't really like it that much. We find it boring. What an insult!

He's correct, you're being stubborn if you disagree.

From a gameplay point of view, Smash 64 is vastly superior to Melee, the engine that's used in Melee is a mess from a game dev's perspective. Look at the amount of unintended things that arose from it, wavedashing and the like. Smash is not meant to be played how it is in Melee, aerial combat was one of the main features about the game.

Name one other thing that's used in Competitive play that wave unintended (that wasn't programmed in, not that Sakurai didn't think we've use a lot). If it's such a mess, you should be able to name 5.

And also:

And the devs designed Smash 64 to be a game where if played at its best, a single hit eventually leads to an unavoidable string of hits resulting in a KO? Or was it designed to be played as 2-minute time matches with all items on normal?

Claiming to know how the makers of the game wanted the game to be played is just stupid.

 

[pirkid]

P.E. u suck balls and more

u just cant do the advanced techniques so u say that ppl who use them are just abusing the game.

Its about playing whatever's available to you in the game.

Don't use insults, your post is spat upon when one is found, and the whole thing is disregarded.

 

[Yuna]

Ok guys. Nobody can estimate the total depth of Brawl. Seriously. I know a lot of the arguments Yuna and others make, yet when I see videos of competitive tournaments there isn't this over abundance of camping. Yeah, by strict theory game it seems like it will become that way, and it may still, but if that is the case how come it's not already prevalent? It's not like we weren't predicting it to be a camp fest prior to it's release in Japan (hell, I was on that band wagon at the time) so if camping is so overpowered how come nobody has resorted to doing it so far?

People are just new to the game... and also wish to not have it devolve into camping. But from what we know so far, the highest level of play should involve a ton of camping.

I mean, did you even see anyone abuse the new Powershielding system much? I haven't. Just because they aren't doing it does not mean it's not really easy to do or abusable. It's just that most people are still trying to figure the game out or playing it too much like Melee.

I mean, have you many Toon Links abusing the Footstool Jump into Dair? Mikey Lenetia won an entire tournament without using Peach's new U-tilt much at all.

 

[Thino]

What? These characters are bad. Just plain bad. You don't need to be a genious to know that Kirby and Pikachu are much better than these characters in almost everyway.

This is arguable, but it might be true it is more balanced for sure. Still isn't that close to balance.

With Link, you do an up b, he has to spin around awhile before he can grab the ledge. Please, try upbing near the edge to see. It is like Melee except he has loses vertical height by the freaken time he grabs the edge. Sweetspotting with almost any character is impossible unless you are Pikachu. Otherwise, your recovery is too garbage to sweetspot or your recovery time is better spent not going towards the edge (well, you can sweetspot with Ness too but it is much harder to do than Pkachu).

I guess. Or your playing Sensei and Isai way too much.

Those two are the worst characters in the game yes. One of them actually loses vertical height before he can grab the stage. That is just plain sad.

Smash 64 is still no way in the stretch of the imagination that balanced. I have to ask what are you basing this off of? Sure a Link might have a better chance against a Kirby than he does a Fox in Melee, but what makes you think he can actually make it at the highest level of play.

You have to wait awhile before you can ledgehop. At least that is true.

well i'm arguing about ssb64 being more balanced than melee, not being just balanced.

you're talking about sweespotting in melee terms , like your UpB momentum is stopped by grabbing the ledge , only pikachu and ness under certain conditions can do that
sweetspotting in ssb64 is actually timing the end of your UpB animation to the ledge .

Isai is totally another level so hes not to be taken in consideration. but top players with around sensei's level do use low tiers at higher level of play (online at least , nobody can show their true skills , lag and delay johns ensue), I play them ,or hear comment of their match in the chatroom.

actually the better the player is , the more chance you have to lose your stock if you screw up regardless of the character he's using and the one you are using . its easy to **** a pika on the left side of Hyrule Casl with DK just with well timed grabs and an usmash , you dont need to be Sensei or Isai to do that.

you can ledgehop as soon as you grab the ledge . I do that everyday with pika while edgeguarding or with mario ledgehop->fireball->ledgehop->fireball so unless invicibility frames are suddenly 1 frame long I dont know what you're talking about

 

[P.E]

Chess is one of the most competitive games in history although the possibilities at each turn are limited (you could even count them). This must sound strange to guys like Yuna, but it´s true. Even if you know everything about chess you can still improve your skills.

Even if you knew every trick/technique that´s possible in Brawl (and we surely don´t... I didn´t even know that you can get free from Bowser´s SideB) you could always improve your skills. E.g. it seems to be quite hard to hit hard with Marth´s DownA (I would say it´s harder than in Melee) but you can always improve that particular skill.

Just an example:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kZxsfBLeQSw
(Marth could already knock out Diddy at 0:20 but his timing wasn´t perfect)

 

[SuperLink9]

My views hold no ground because I have yet to play Brawl, but hopefully I will within the next few days. This is what I hope to confirm:

- Brawl is more balanced than Melee
- Brawl is more fun than Melee
- Brawl can still be played to determine who is better at a Smash Bros game.

I am mostly convinced that these are true, the bottom I am certain of. Taking these into account I don't know what else there is to argue about other than opinion, in which case noone can win.

 

[hungrybox]

yeah....

melee combos are the quickest and the best.