Social General Ice Climber Chat

[tauKhan]

I'm not sure if this is known to you, but I found out that if nana dies, that empties IC's stale queue, i.e. all popo's moves become fresh.

 

[TrapLordGarbage]

I'm not sure if this is known to you, but I found out that if nana dies, that empties IC's stale queue, i.e. all popo's moves become fresh.

Thats hilarious

 

[941]

Hey guys,

It's been almost 3 years, and I would like to admit that I suck at wobbling. I train wobbling the most (2nd is movement, 3rd is handoffs) and I still get successful wobble -> KO setups only about 50% of the time in tournament and friendlies (goggle Fluid ssbm for my latest sets). I've tried listening to Linkin Park's Breaking the Habit as well as mimicking a 200 BPM metronome for at least an hour or two. Sometimes, I feel it out and I can get one perfect 0 to death wobble setup, but as soon as I replicate the factors, I mess it up all over again and I feel like it's back to square one. I never wanted to ask for help before because I felt like wobbling was something practically anyone can do (i've had friends pick up ice climbers in an hour and start wobbling me), but I guess my ego has finally burst, and before I put down a hundred dollars for percussion lessons since I never learned music properly in my childhood, I would like to ask y'all if there's something that I'm just missing in how I approach this.

It sounds like Your problem is just keeping the proper timing and not getting the setups or starting the wobble, which is a good thing. I used to have a similar problem, but the 2 things I found that really helped Me were 1: Sliding My thumb off the A button so I could use the audio queue of it snapping back into place to keep rhythm, and 2: Focusing throughout the Wobble and making a conscious effort to avoid auto-piloting. Also, if You aren't musically inclined, it might help to focus on watching the hits and timing Your inputs based on visual queues. Don't sweat it too much though, even the best players aren't perfect at wobbling, and improving Your fundamentals more important anyway.

 

[NTRN]

If you find you can initiate the wobble, but you drop the timing after a few hits, try a different approach. Use visual cues instead of feeling a timing or rhythm. I can do either, bit if I'm having trouble, I make sure my presses are timed such that popo is in his neutral grab animation for a frame or so. This way I know my pummel input will be received.
You don't need to wait for it either, just wobble along, and if the animation is too short, slow it down. Too long, speed it up.

I did an input logger on my controller and found I was exactly 200bpm naturally, so that was cool.

Edit: 941 brought up visual cues before I realized.

 

[NTRN]

How do I deal with Marth's corner pressure on ICs? I feel like I always lose Popo, Nana, or take a bunch of damage when I try and regain center stage. Good Marths don't let me up-b stall on the ledge, I don't have room to set up a desync wall, and when I try to jump or waveland over I get called out with fsmash.

In my experience, you don't. You scramble and hope to salvage as much as you can offstage. If you get hit and Nana is desynched and recovering on her own, she is already dead from tilts or fsmash. Use that as a bait to squall to a platform or away. If you get ledge, you can stall to bring marth in, but your only option is pretty much invincible ledge dash through and make a guess on what marth will do. I like invincible grab. Ledge is very very bad with both climbers and even bad marths will blow you up over a misplay there.

I'm having difficulty with Marths camping with things like f-air > double jump back > f-air. Should I just focus on using My projectiles and trying to make Him commit harder, or should I be looking for an opening to get around the f-air hitboxes and punish?

Marth fair will eat up ice blocks, and it generally isn't effective for me, unless they are already in the corner on the defensive (or on the ledge). I find the marth iceclimbers matchup very difficult, so I use Nana as bait. I'll drop her off with an irritating blizzard, then react and weave around marth counter attacking. If he doesn't go for Nana, you just do it again, or mix in some platform ice blocks to stay relatively unpredictable. Grab is great, but hard to get off anything but raw fsmash.
Since I essentially play popo the entire time damage builders are, dash attack-upair-upair and dthrow-usmash-upair.
And invincible ledge hop Nair to ledge hog on low recoveries for easy gimps.

 

[941]

I probably should focus more on dash dancing and whiff punishing the fairs. I've also considered CCing them, but I feel like that would only work against bad spacing.

 

[TheRealFluid]

Hey y'all,

I played Michael who is currently #1 on netplay, and I need some more help understanding the puff/Ice Climbers matchup. I miss several wobbles but he also missed several rests (I blame netplay lag lol). Since other threads tend to be less active, I would like some input from everyone about what I could have done differently/better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpfQRbC1mVo

 

[quindelin]

I like the bairs that you do when he lands on a platform, I think most of the MU should be played facing away from puff. I don't like the fh uairs that you were doing when he was floating around a platform, he's just gonna fade back and hit you. Threatening sh uairs is good because it tells the puff you won't let him land easily. I don't think ice block is any good in this MU unless you KNOW that the puff is going to 1. Land and 2. Shield which are both things that puff shouldn't be doing in this MU anyway.

Most of this MU is holding center and zoning, until you bait the puff to come in eventually and that is when you get your grab in.

Other than that, punishes. I saw that you were missing the quick dthrow usmash timing. Wait for Nanas grab animation to be over and then dthrow and push up on the cstick simultaneously.

Oh and Michael likes to do these pounds on this weird height on your shield that can't be grabbed. Just uair him oos and make him eat 20% until he learns to respect it

 

[CAUP]

I have a weird but simple question. Can ice climbers wobble by throwing peach's turnip at herself? So nana instead of doing tilts throwing the turnip. If the hit stun is enough.

 

[NTRN]

So I won my regions Arcadian for the first time last week. BC's UBC Colosseum. 128 entrants.
It was pretty good. Cruised through RR pools 14-0 including ganon and peach matches, then got in to bracket and proceeded to go to last game every round after round 1. Winners semis I go down 2-0 vs a Washington sheik named Chief, but claw it back to reverse 3-0, then winners and grand finals were 13 games of IC ditto slugfest. I was up against our local netplay warrior/wobble master Fauxhebro, where i went down 0-2 again, clawed it back reverse 3-0 a second time in WF. Then in grands I lost a close set 1, and finished set 2 with a 3-0.

The crowd sure left once both the ice climbers got up to the TV though.

Greatest moment: Nana fairspike off dthrow in WS G3
Runner up: incomplete Popo fairspike off fthrow in WS G5 could have been glorious

Links if you care to watch. I already know my wobbles vs ICs were nonexistent, but grabs were not my gamelan.
WS
https://youtu.be/d3jrJlPYLBY
WFs
https://youtu.be/gTQM3b20dEE
GFs
https://youtu.be/1Q7gDQW9Oc4

 

[TrapLordGarbage]

So I won my regions Arcadian for the first time last week. BC's UBC Colosseum. 128 entrants.
It was pretty good. Cruised through RR pools 14-0 including ganon and peach matches, then got in to bracket and proceeded to go to last game every round after round 1. Winners semis I go down 2-0 vs a Washington sheik named Chief, but claw it back to reverse 3-0, then winners and grand finals were 13 games of IC ditto slugfest. I was up against our local netplay warrior/wobble master Fauxhebro, where i went down 0-2 again, clawed it back reverse 3-0 a second time in WF. Then in grands I lost a close set 1, and finished set 2 with a 3-0.

The crowd sure left once both the ice climbers got up to the TV though.

Greatest moment: Nana fairspike off dthrow in WS G3
Runner up: incomplete Popo fairspike off fthrow in WS G5 could have been glorious

Links if you care to watch. I already know my wobbles vs ICs were nonexistent, but grabs were not my gamelan.
WS
https://youtu.be/d3jrJlPYLBY
WFs
https://youtu.be/gTQM3b20dEE
GFs
https://youtu.be/1Q7gDQW9Oc4

hey my man im Alberta and we recently had a Arcadian too haha, but i didnt win(4th). good **** tho
heres one of my clips because i have no self respect
https://clips.twitch.tv/anjosmash/NiceSalamanderTheTarFu

 

[NTRN]

hey my man im Alberta and we recently had a Arcadian too haha, but i didnt win(4th). good **** tho
heres one of my clips because i have no self respect
https://clips.twitch.tv/anjosmash/NiceSalamanderTheTarFu

That edge guard was so jank, the Nana jab messed up his timing so well. Did you mean to pc drop to ledge, or were you going for a swag turn around regrab and made the best of it?

 

[TrapLordGarbage]

That edge guard was so jank, the Nana jab messed up his timing so well. Did you mean to pc drop to ledge, or were you going for a swag turn around regrab and made the best of it?

yo heck u that **** was sick. but yeah i completely biffed the regrab LOL

 

[NTRN]

yo heck u that **** was sick. but yeah i completely biffed the regrab LOL

Nah, nah, I mean jank as in typical ic randomness that happens to work out great and tilt opponents. It's all good

 

[TrapLordGarbage]

Nah, nah, I mean jank as in typical ic randomness that happens to work out great and tilt opponents. It's all good

OHH yeah i getcha completely my mans.

 

[X1-12]

Hey all,

Does anyone have an image showing Nana's "control zone" i.e the invisible box around Popo where she's still controlled by the player?

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing one somewhere on smashboards a couple years back but I can't find it for the life of me

Would love to use it in a little guide I'm working on


Cheers!

 

[TrapLordGarbage]

Hey all,

Does anyone have an image showing Nana's "control zone" i.e the invisible box around Popo where she's still controlled by the player?

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing one somewhere on smashboards a couple years back but I can't find it for the life of me

Would love to use it in a little guide I'm working on


Cheers!

i dont have a picture of it and im not really sure if this helps but you can break your shield with popo and you can walk around with nana to find out how big the box is

 

[Liam_Butler]

Yo, what's up, I've been coming up with new mindsets and playstyles to adapt into my overall game, this is what I've been working on:

So, as Falcon, I'm quite a fan of his shield pressure in try to bait you to act out of shield and then punishing for it, so I thought, "Let's try it with ICs" so I was playing a friend with sopo, and I did jab on shield, back dash, and then she did Float nair out of shield at me, which I punished with grab. This led me to think that "Wait, maybe I can do this with both climbers", and I've been thinking of ways to scare people into staying into shield, or do a bad OoS option. Here are the set ups I've been thinking of with both climbers:

Jab->smash turn desync->nana f smash->wavedash backwards as Popo and react to what happened after Nana smashes
Back air just out of reach of their shield->spot dodge-> charge down smash->WD at them and let it release and then react

Now, before I go on, I'm aware that these are all situational, but it's more of the thought behind what I'm doing, as opposed to how I'm doing it. I'm trying to make them scared to act out of shield, and not be confident in being able to punish me, so once that happens, I can get free grabs on shield for days. It's less about the situations and more about establishing mix ups, which I don't feel I do well enough with ICs. Does anyone have any thoughts on implementing stuff like this, or has anyone tried it before, and to what degrees of success?

 

[NTRN]

Yo, what's up, I've been coming up with new mindsets and playstyles to adapt into my overall game, this is what I've been working on:

So, as Falcon, I'm quite a fan of his shield pressure in try to bait you to act out of shield and then punishing for it, so I thought, "Let's try it with ICs" so I was playing a friend with sopo, and I did jab on shield, back dash, and then she did Float nair out of shield at me, which I punished with grab. This led me to think that "Wait, maybe I can do this with both climbers", and I've been thinking of ways to scare people into staying into shield, or do a bad OoS option. Here are the set ups I've been thinking of with both climbers:

Jab->smash turn desync->nana f smash->wavedash backwards as Popo and react to what happened after Nana smashes
Back air just out of reach of their shield->spot dodge-> charge down smash->WD at them and let it release and then react

Now, before I go on, I'm aware that these are all situational, but it's more of the thought behind what I'm doing, as opposed to how I'm doing it. I'm trying to make them scared to act out of shield, and not be confident in being able to punish me, so once that happens, I can get free grabs on shield for days. It's less about the situations and more about establishing mix ups, which I don't feel I do well enough with ICs. Does anyone have any thoughts on implementing stuff like this, or has anyone tried it before, and to what degrees of success?

I believe you will find jab - dash back Nfsmash- P wavedash in to react is way slower than you anticipate. Most people will just jump out, especially due to the +7 frames for Nana, and the lag from WD.
Most climbers can make scary pressure strings, but for the most part, they aren't safe, so you are relying on big hits at irregular times to prevent them from escaping.
I think it is also important know your enemy. In there situation, they hopefully shielded or cc'd a jab. What do they want? Most likely they don't want to be sitting in shield to get grabbed, so it is spot dodge, roll or jump. They are going to learn pretty quick that that jumping away has the lowest risk from them, and the highest commitment from you.
So you gotta mix it up and think about follow ups.

You are on a very interesting route though with back dash smashes. Keep experimenting. Remember you can do them any time you are standing, and that means after aerials too.

 

[Liam_Butler]

I believe you will find jab - dash back Nfsmash- P wavedash in to react is way slower than you anticipate. Most people will just jump out, especially due to the +7 frames for Nana, and the lag from WD.
Most climbers can make scary pressure strings, but for the most part, they aren't safe, so you are relying on big hits at irregular times to prevent them from escaping.
I think it is also important know your enemy. In there situation, they hopefully shielded or cc'd a jab. What do they want? Most likely they don't want to be sitting in shield to get grabbed, so it is spot dodge, roll or jump. They are going to learn pretty quick that that jumping away has the lowest risk from them, and the highest commitment from you.
So you gotta mix it up and think about follow ups.

You are on a very interesting route though with back dash smashes. Keep experimenting. Remember you can do them any time you are standing, and that means after aerials too.

I think that most of this also relies on stage positioning, which would limit their options enough where I feel this to be good. mid stage or on a platform doesn't seem like this would be strong, though I think that mixing up wavedash back as Popo and dash back in as popo would make it scarier to react out of shield, as wavedash back into back air would make jumping a bit riskier. A lot of this is character dependent, and I do realize the "pressure" I'm doing isn't true.

Another added bit of info I gain from this, if I hadn't already, is learn what their "panic defense option is", by which I mean what option they're most comfortable with and is their innate reaction when they get scared. But I digress.

I think that mixing up back dash smashes and pivot smashes is the best way to go about mixing up the initial stimuli, and which climber is threatening them. If I know they want to jump out after the F smash, I can do a pivot smash as Popo, and jump-> blizzard as Nana, which I wouldn't be able to do with the dash backs.

Lastly, in your opinion, would AC back air, smash turn desync F smash as Nana, dash in as Popo function well as bait or trap, along the lines of what I've been describing?

 

[quindelin]

Lastly, in your opinion, would AC back air, smash turn desync F smash as Nana, dash in as Popo function well as bait or trap, along the lines of what I've been describing?

I've been trying to do what you described (AC bair into std) and I think it's too slow. Even when the bair autocancels and you interrupt with a dash back (entering the input to smash as you dash) for some reason it does not work. If I wait for nana to land and wait for her to enter a neutral position and then do the smash turn desync it works fine as it should. But obviously this takes forever. So either I'm doing this wrong or it's not possible to do a smash turn desync after you interrupt bair in the AC window.

 

[Liam_Butler]

I've been trying to do what you described (AC bair into std) and I think it's too slow. Even when the bair autocancels and you interrupt with a dash back (entering the input to smash as you dash) for some reason it does not work. If I wait for nana to land and wait for her to enter a neutral position and then do the smash turn desync it works fine as it should. But obviously this takes forever. So either I'm doing this wrong or it's not possible to do a smash turn desync after you interrupt bair in the AC window.

Huh, so maybe I don't suck. I've been trying to work on it, but couldn't get it either out of AC bair. Maybe doing a quick dash dance desync could provide a similar purpose, but it's pretty weird that std doesn't happen after AC Bair.

 

[quindelin]

Can someone link me wobble setups on a low % jiggs that just missed rest? I would have won an important set if I knew some setups

 

[NTRN]

I think that most of this also relies on stage positioning, which would limit their options enough where I feel this to be good. mid stage or on a platform doesn't seem like this would be strong, though I think that mixing up wavedash back as Popo and dash back in as popo would make it scarier to react out of shield, as wavedash back into back air would make jumping a bit riskier. A lot of this is character dependent, and I do realize the "pressure" I'm doing isn't true.

Another added bit of info I gain from this, if I hadn't already, is learn what their "panic defense option is", by which I mean what option they're most comfortable with and is their innate reaction when they get scared. But I digress.

I think that mixing up back dash smashes and pivot smashes is the best way to go about mixing up the initial stimuli, and which climber is threatening them. If I know they want to jump out after the F smash, I can do a pivot smash as Popo, and jump-> blizzard as Nana, which I wouldn't be able to do with the dash backs.

Lastly, in your opinion, would AC back air, smash turn desync F smash as Nana, dash in as Popo function well as bait or trap, along the lines of what I've been describing?

I wrote out a big response to this a few days ago but my phone died and it was lost, and I hadn't the motivation to write it again.

I think we come at things from different perspectives. I try to approach my practical desyncs from a 'coverage' standpoint. I don't care do much if I don't hit you, I just want to threaten and make it so you can't hit me. Eg. Threatening dd pivot usmash when Nana blizzards to protect Nana, then have Nana able to sh aerial or WD smash depending on if/how my opponent reacts. On dash backs in particular, I think they are great when your opponent has limited options.. Have Nana instant fsmash ledge while you cover the high angle.. Have Nana fsmash on platform while you shield drop bair through it for vertical coverage. As a mixup I think it works in neutral, and can make for an interesting on the attack-block-grab rock paper scissors game, where you can kind of play two hands at once if you do it right. I'll do something like sync fair, db fsmash and react to if they hit Nana or jump, or get hit.

Huh, so maybe I don't suck. I've been trying to work on it, but couldn't get it either out of AC bair. Maybe doing a quick dash dance desync could provide a similar purpose, but it's pretty weird that std doesn't happen after AC Bair.

And I was messing with it, and I'm pretty sure I hit like 2 ac bair dashback fsmashes in slowmo mode. I might not have though. I tried like 80 times. That said, if we assume you can't dash back nana smash out of ac, then you can sacrifice 2 frames, do a really late bair, l cancel it, and dbns no problem.

Is the 'popo first' dashback-smash a known desync? From standing. Non pivot. I have never seen info on it and if it is foreign, I'll write some stuff about it and some neat setups.

 

[ilysm]

quindelin I think the agreed-upon optimal wobble setup to punish rest is desync blizzard -> instant grab. I could be wrong about that though.

 

[NTRN]

And I was messing with it, and I'm pretty sure I hit like 2 ac bair dashback fsmashes in slowmo mode. I might not have though. I tried like 80 times. That said, if we assume you can't dash back nana smash out of ac, then you can sacrifice 2 frames, do a really late bair, l cancel it, and dbns no problem.

Is the 'popo first' dashback-smash a known desync? From standing. Non pivot. I have never seen info on it and if it is foreign, I'll write some stuff about it and some neat setups.

I figured it out. The ac bair works if you walk a frame before smash turning. I guess there is something about the cancel.. Maybe Nana can't cancel her landing animation into dash, but can into run, similar to the one frame walk for isai drops.

 

[Liam_Butler]

Can someone link me wobble setups on a low % jiggs that just missed rest? I would have won an important set if I knew some setups

The optimal rest punish is desync-charge f smash-release f smash-grab. Beats out pre mashing for a raw grab and potential SDI from blizzard. https://youtu.be/djJ9DgHtHq8?t=3m38s Wobbles does it here. Puts the opponent in hitstun, so they can't mash before the wobble starts.

I think we come at things from different perspectives. I try to approach my practical desyncs from a 'coverage' standpoint. I don't care do much if I don't hit you, I just want to threaten and make it so you can't hit me. Eg. Threatening dd pivot usmash when Nana blizzards to protect Nana, then have Nana able to sh aerial or WD smash depending on if/how my opponent reacts. On dash backs in particular, I think they are great when your opponent has limited options.. Have Nana instant fsmash ledge while you cover the high angle.. Have Nana fsmash on platform while you shield drop bair through it for vertical coverage. As a mixup I think it works in neutral, and can make for an interesting on the attack-block-grab rock paper scissors game, where you can kind of play two hands at once if you do it right. I'll do something like sync fair, db fsmash and react to if they hit Nana or jump, or get hit.

I've certainly used desyncs like that in the past, and this isn't me trying to replace those uses, more so me experimenting with new desyncs that I haven't seen people do yet. Definitely gonna use the DB desync for edge guarding, now that you mention it

 

[ilysm]

I understand that the blizzard is SDI-able, the goal is to grab them on the hit before significant SDI is possible; but, how exactly does putting the opponent in hitstun before you grab them prevent pre-mashing from a wobble? I thought that hit stun while not grabbed and hit stun while grabbed were two completely different states. How would the f-smash to grab setup be any different from, say, putting them in hitstun with a d-air before beginning the wobble?

 

[Liam_Butler]

I understand that the blizzard is SDI-able, the goal is to grab them on the hit before significant SDI is possible; but, how exactly does putting the opponent in hitstun before you grab them prevent pre-mashing from a wobble? I thought that hit stun while not grabbed and hit stun while grabbed were two completely different states. How would the f-smash to grab setup be any different from, say, putting them in hitstun with a d-air before beginning the wobble?

Wouldn't it be easier to grab off an f smash because you can control when the f smash is let go, don't have to worry about multiple hit boxes, and don't have to worry about the positioning of nana when you start your desync? And if the hitstun changes from when you're hit to when you're being grabbed, I've never heard of that, but it could be true. If it is true, then it doesn't matter how you get a grab off a missed rest. If it isn't true, then I'm pretty sure F smash is better because there's more hit stun and less opportunities to SDI.

 

[ilysm]

To clarify (I was a little mistaken in this regard), you want to grab them BEFORE the first hit of blizzard even comes out. That way, when you grab them, the multihit from blizzard traps them in grab stun even quicker than a pummel would (since a pummel requires those initial startup frames, but the blizzard is already happening once the grab connects) and there is no window for them to mash out or SDI. With f-smash, Nana is occupied in endlag which actually DELAYS the wobble setup without trapping them in hitstun (the stun from the f-smash disappears once you grab them in the same way that stun from d-air doesn't carry over when d-throw d-air chaingrabbing). You can control when the f-smash releases, but desync blizzard comes out on the same frame every time, so it shouldn't be too hard to time with practice. I don't know what you mean about positioning; whether you use blizzard or f-smash The Force should pull Nana right next to you.

 

[quindelin]

To clarify (I was a little mistaken in this regard), you want to grab them BEFORE the first hit of blizzard even comes out.

This leads me to another question: wasn't there an equation for how many mash inputs are needed to get out of a grab, depending on percent? Does adding the 14% of blizzard damage add any mash inputs needed for grab release, or are the mash inputs needed predetermined with the initial grab %?

The jiggs still has about 20 frames to mash after the blizzard ends, accounting for the frames between the last hit of the blizzard and the first frame that ftilt hits. Those 20-ish frames could change depending on when you headbutt with Popo as Nana's blizzard is about to end, but idk. That still should be a lot better than any fsmash setup.

 

[ilysm]

M2K's formula is t = 1.6d + 76 - 6b

Where 't' is the amount of time stuck in the grab in frames, 'd' is the amount of damage you have, and 'b' is the amount of buttons you press.

The goal is to time the Popo pummel so that it links with the blizzard and sets up an inescapable wobble. This is quite possible (it's actually possible to wobble entirely with blizzard and pummel, which people I guess call 'blizzobbling' but there's no real reason to do that).

 

[Liam_Butler]

M2K's formula is t = 1.6d + 76 - 6b

Where 't' is the amount of time stuck in the grab in frames, 'd' is the amount of damage you have, and 'b' is the amount of buttons you press.

The goal is to time the Popo pummel so that it links with the blizzard and sets up an inescapable wobble. This is quite possible (it's actually possible to wobble entirely with blizzard and pummel, which people I guess call 'blizzobbling' but there's no real reason to do that).

I guess I misunderstood what you meant, my mistake.

 

[ilysm]

Nah, it's all good. I actually initially didn't understand it too (I thought you'd grab off the first hit of blizzard when in reality you'd grab right before blizzard started) so I didn't communicate it too well until like halfway through. My b.

 

[Liam_Butler]

Nah, it's all good. I actually initially didn't understand it too (I thought you'd grab off the first hit of blizzard when in reality you'd grab right before blizzard started) so I didn't communicate it too well until like halfway through. My b.

Glad we had a civil discussion over the internet that resulted in us both learning things about our characters we did not understand prior.

 

[choknater]

alright guys i lost to spark in like 5 sets in a row

i got some VODS i'm gonna need some help

i think he's one of the best in the world in that matchup (he has beaten nintendude)

i think there are clear mistakes when i watch myself play so i wanna figure out what i can practice and i think your perspectives can help

 

[Smasher89]

Jab->smash turn desync->nana f smash->wavedash backwards as Popo and react to what happened after Nana smashes
Back air just out of reach of their shield->spot dodge-> charge down smash->WD at them and let it release and then react

Im trying to learn jab>turnaround sopo dsmash(jab turnaround dsmash is usually quite legit) nana backair to set up pressure, still need to perfect it, and Nana often goes into a quite bad positioning making it hard to hit small characters with the backair, i think the first part forces a reaction to not let go of the shield, the second part keeps the pressure up and then popo is free to move with potencially a nana backairing them setting up for a reaction.
Would be cool to know the exact escape options against that (roll away after dsmash?) and if the roll in that case would be possible to cover, which I think it's.

 

[Liam_Butler]

Im trying to learn jab>turnaround sopo dsmash(jab turnaround dsmash is usually quite legit) nana backair to set up pressure, still need to perfect it, and Nana often goes into a quite bad positioning making it hard to hit small characters with the backair, i think the first part forces a reaction to not let go of the shield, the second part keeps the pressure up and then popo is free to move with potencially a nana backairing them setting up for a reaction.
Would be cool to know the exact escape options against that (roll away after dsmash?) and if the roll in that case would be possible to cover, which I think it's.

I'm no expert, but I think stage positioning and character variation determine escape options how easy it is to cover. Also, how are you desyncing nana for the turnaround d smash?

 

[choknater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXPVhcF5Qdc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azVXXaap-z8

can y'all help me? see anything glaring that i can fix? just posting this beforehand, i'm gonna do a VOD analysis on stream on my own before i try to absorb a bunch of outside opinions

follow me in advance:
twitch.tv/choknater

i mostly do art, but sometimes i do melee vod analysis (i don't play melee on stream... yet)

 

[NTRN]

I'm no expert, but I think stage positioning and character variation determine escape options how easy it is to cover. Also, how are you desyncing nana for the turnaround d smash?

You just do it. Popo can u or d smash from stand or walk at any time. When chased, I like WD away (facing away) then turn around popo d or usmash > fh blizzard from Nana, because it is fast and gets the blizzard in the right direction. Similar to pivot smash, but you don't need to dash. It is a great bait. Most people only see popo, and they react to what he is doing, but neglect Nana if they are moving at the same time.


Correction: you don't need to be in dash as a requirement of the desync - such as for pivot smash. You do need to dash