Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

[KeithTheGeek]

So (obviously or not) we just had a match-up chart thread with some interesting insights into match-ups. Muskrat Catcher tallied up the scores and raised some good points in this post. And, well, I figure this is as good of a place as any to discuss these things.

The first character I'd like to talk about is Game & Watch. In the thread, I voted that it was a positive match-up for Dedede, and it should be noted all of my votes were made under the assumptions of no customs. Of course a positive match-up can be something as minor as a 55-45 advantage, and truth be told I'm not sure how well Dedede does against GW.

I think GW has a great advantage state over Dedede because Dedede naturally has a hard time landing, and good GWs will keep you in the air and follow your landing. Dedede doesn't exactly have good air movement (understatement? lol) so that's not too hard to do. Additionally, he has tricky hitboxes to work around, and a great deal of them are disjointed and linger. His small size makes hitting him with aerials difficult to do as well.

But...I honestly don't think he should be killing us without either amazing edge-guarding, good luck on the hammer, or just having tacked on a lot (and I mean a lot) of percent. Bucket is useless in this match-up, and GW's attacks won't reliably kill Dedede. There's always 9 hammer cheese, but that's way too luck dependent to be considered reliable.

On Dedede's side, we completely outrange GW. We can safely poke at him from a distance, and I don't think there's much he can really do about it. And while we have trouble hitting him with our hard hitting attacks, he's so light we can score early kills off of him with just a few good reads. IMO I think these advantages outweigh our disadvantages in the match-up, which is why I voted for him as a positive match-up.

Frankly I'm surprised to see ZSS isn't on that unanimously bad match-up list. @| Big D | ranked this as an even match-up, and I'm really curious to read his thoughts on that.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

So (obviously or not) we just had a match-up chart thread with some interesting insights into match-ups. Muskrat Catcher tallied up the scores and raised some good points in this post. And, well, I figure this is as good of a place as any to discuss these things.

The first character I'd like to talk about is Game & Watch. In the thread, I voted that it was a positive match-up for Dedede, and it should be noted all of my votes were made under the assumptions of no customs. Of course a positive match-up can be something as minor as a 55-45 advantage, and truth be told I'm not sure how well Dedede does against GW.

I think GW has a great advantage state over Dedede because Dedede naturally has a hard time landing, and good GWs will keep you in the air and follow your landing. Dedede doesn't exactly have good air movement (understatement? lol) so that's not too hard to do. Additionally, he has tricky hitboxes to work around, and a great deal of them are disjointed and linger. His small size makes hitting him with aerials difficult to do as well.

But...I honestly don't think he should be killing us without either amazing edge-guarding, good luck on the hammer, or just having tacked on a lot (and I mean a lot) of percent. Bucket is useless in this match-up, and GW's attacks won't reliably kill Dedede. There's always 9 hammer cheese, but that's way too luck dependent to be considered reliable.

On Dedede's side, we completely outrange GW. We can safely poke at him from a distance, and I don't think there's much he can really do about it. And while we have trouble hitting him with our hard hitting attacks, he's so light we can score early kills off of him with just a few good reads. IMO I think these advantages outweigh our disadvantages in the match-up, which is why I voted for him as a positive match-up.

Frankly I'm surprised to see ZSS isn't on that unanimously bad match-up list. @| Big D | ranked this as an even match-up, and I'm really curious to read his thoughts on that.

You know, now that I think about it, GW doesn't really have good kill options on us. I actually ranked the MU as favoring GW for a few reasons. First, I have a friend who only plays casually, but still gives me trouble with his G&W. I usually still win when I'm trying, but he can really get a lot of percent on me (but its true, it is very hard for him to kill me). Also, he is extremely difficult to edge guard due to his up-B, and I love edge guarding.

However, I would reconsider this matchup for the same reason I put Shiek as even, when everyone else said it was negative - lack of kill power. I have never found the Shiek matchup unwinnable, or even unfavorable. Whenever I face a Shiek in a tournament, I actually am happy because its not going to be a match where DDD's weaknesses are specifically exploited.

I would also like to see why Big D put ZSS as equal, so I figured I would explain why I saw the Shiek matchup as neutral. Think of it this way: Shiek can camp out almost any character due to the nature of her needles, and if needed her grenade. This is certainly one of her strengths against DDD, but DDD doesn't really get camped any worse than any other character when facing Shiek. Also, if we send a gordo at Shiek, she must stop charging needles and shield or hit it back, giving us time to approach. As a character that gets camped out by everyone, Shiek isn't actually that bad to approach in my opinion. My only concession in this matchup (and the reason it isn't positive for DDD) is that DDD's large size makes Shiek's combo game even better, but Shiek doesn't capitalize on the size increase in her combos as much as a fighter like Kirby does (another contested matchup), since Kirby can keep the combo going for extremely long times with his 6 jumps and hup-canceling. When facing kirby, you can consider your first 50% gone if he grabs you. Shiek can simply connect double Fair for longer, or combo out of throws for a larger range. However, once we get outside of combo range, Shiek needs a serious read to kill DDD. DDD is one of the few characters that can survive Shiek's kill setups, and unless the Shiek is playing some amazing mindgames, you can see all of her kill options coming. These options are limited to bouncing fish offstage, sweetspotted up smash, up-B airdodge reads, or a very high percentage up air. All of these options are not too difficult to dodge if you keep them in mind, but the up air is the scariest thing, since it is not too difficult to connect, but Shiek can't combo you at high percents, which means that you won't reach the percentage it takes to kill with it until very late in the stock. I don't think it is feasible for a Shiek to gimp a competent DDD, so we are sticking around until those late percentages, then all it takes is a few mistakes from the Shiek, and rage will take her stock. I admit that the Shiek does have to make a mistake, but it takes so long to kill DDD, that she will probably make a mistake in that time, especially if she gets impatient.

In short, Shiek's greatest weakness is her kill power, and there is not a single character in the cast that can capitalize on that as much as DDD can.

 

[williamsga555]

Agree with Keith on the Game & Watch matchup, for the most part. He gets to juggle us for free until about 100% every stock, but his only good finisher on us is up smash (which, given that we're Dedede, we still end up living pretty high up against that). In addition, we can't edgeguard him offstage well because Fire beats out almost everything we have.

However, he's one of the few characters we can somewhat wall out and finish somewhat early. He has few options for our spaced moves and, in the same boat as us, he can't edgeguard us offstage either that effectively. We get to live forever and finish him sub-100% with a raw bair almost anywhere on stage if he makes a mistake.

Thus, I find it hard to judge for sure where it sits for us. Seems like a kind of volatile matchup, in a sense, but there aren't many G&W players in my region (or really any at all), so I left it as unknown in the matchup poll.

=====

Also was super curious that Big D put not only ZSS but also Megaman as even matchups. I thought we got absolutely trashed on by those characters, so I'd love to hear his insight on it and be shown up (after all, who doesn't like a bit of optimism?).

And on that note, who would our worst matchup be if isn't one of those two? Diddy?

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

And on that note, who would our worst matchup be if isn't one of those two? Diddy?

Sonic. It has to be sonic right? God I hate a skilled sonic. I think that matchup is worse than ZSS by a good amount. Impossible to edgeguard, impossible to react to his approaches in time, impossible to escape some of his combos, and get killed early because his smashes are stupidly powerful for their speed. I personally think that Dedede has the POSSIBILITY to beat any character except sonic.

He doesn't even need a projectile or camping ability to be my least favorite matchup. That's how bad it is!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Honestly, if we had some sort of fast CQC tool the Sonic match-up would be way more doable (though still really really bad). This probably sounds really silly but what if jab 1 came out in 3-4 frames and transitioned into jab 2 sooner. A slightly faster ftilt would also be a godsend in this regard. Not to mention the plethora of fixes we could come up with for Gordo Toss...

 

[Soul Train]

Sonic. It has to be sonic right? God I hate a skilled sonic. I think that matchup is worse than ZSS by a good amount. Impossible to edgeguard, impossible to react to his approaches in time, impossible to escape some of his combos, and get killed early because his smashes are stupidly powerful for their speed. I personally think that Dedede has the POSSIBILITY to beat any character except sonic.

Sonic, Yoshi, and Megaman are all around the same level of difficulty (read: crazy annoying to neigh bloody impossible), depending on who's playing them. Meaning: yeah everyone agrees Sonic is hard as balls to fight, that's because even a For Glory scrub can spam half his moveset and D3 can't punish. But at a higher level Yoshi/Mega are just as difficult maybe worse, because one kills better than Sanic and the other zones better.

The same idea applies to ZSS. Sure you've probably wrecked your share of FG idiots that Fsmash/UpB spam all the time. But play a higher leveled player - I got some sets in with VABengal once - and it's...the stuff of nightmares. It's like you're the sheep tied to a post in Jurassic Park. NOWHERE IS SAFE AUGHH

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Honestly against ZSS players I think I'm just gonna start playing Mario. I prefer using my Doc in most cases and playing Doc more sometimes causes me to go for the wrong combos but Doc's mobility is also pretty bad, where as at least with Mario I feel like I'm able to challenge ZSS and focus on winning the neutral.

ZSS is a weird character where I don't think there's actually a problem with her kit (i.e. she's USUALLY fairly honest outside of early Boost Kick cheese for kos) but by design she holds down a lot of the lower tier characters, including Dedede. There's not much you can do to change this without taking away a lot of the things that make her good, barring turning Dedede into pre-3.5 PM Bowser with super armor on everything.

If we were faster and safer on shield we could at least safely challenge her from long range, but then you would still get zoned out by her excellent aerial game and get pressured ridiculously easily by paralyzer shot.

 

[Silly Symphony]

Zero suit is of course a bad matchup, but they're very methodic, so they're easy to read. I do hate ZZS not having a hurtbox in the middle of her DownB, going straight through my gordo setups even though her animation is inside my Gordo's hitbox.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I would like to mention I thought it was a little strange that everyone put Metal Knight as negative. He has a harder time killing, and we outrange him well. I admit, when I first played the MU (against the 5th best guy in Louisiana, a Metal Knight main), I thought the match was impossible, but once you learn to effectively space around his stuff, it's not that bad. Sort of like Cfalc, but not as miserable and annoying.

I'd also just like to state that ZSS is still stupid hard.

However, I feel like ROB is one of our absolute worst MUs, and I do have experience with this. I got some sets in with Chibo and Sassy at MLG alongside some of my local players and ROB just stops everything. Perfect shielding doesn't even work, because the gyro can just come back out as soon as it's gone. Even if you do get in, ROB has enough strengh and range to keep you out again.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Wouldn't ftilt be able to stop the gyro in its tracks? Granted it isn't much better than shielding if ROB has access to his laser, but it's an option.

I do agree ROB is a really bad match-up for Dedede however.

 

[williamsga555]

Funny enough, I have the opposite opinion of the Meta Knight/Captain Falcon matchups. Falcon I think we lose but not that bad, Meta Knight I think is miserable and annoying.

Basically, Meta Knight actually does kill us early, while Falcon usually doesn't. After all, Falcon's best early finishers, being knee, dair, and utilt at the ledge, don't work great on Dedede: early knee combos don't finish us off, thanks to our weight, and the only other way he's landing one is if he somehow lands a falling uair (harder than you'd think, given Dedede's better-than-average anti-airs in uair and ftilt). He can't meteor us properly because of up b's super armor, either. I often find myself living to 150-170% against Falcon.

Meanwhile, Meta Knight can still end us around 100% with a simple uair chain, which, being Dedede, is not difficult for him to land. Even with D3's absurd vertical endurance, shuttle loop just murders us when we're even decently high up. Not to mention that we really can't challenge his recovery well at all, so our ability to finish him off is surprisingly limited, given his poor weight.


Reminder, though, I think we do lose both matchups, but I wouldn't be terribly shocked to find out that Falcon is more even. I'm not convinced on Meta Knight being anything better than a poor matchup for us though.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

ZSS is a weird character where I don't think there's actually a problem with her kit (i.e. she's USUALLY fairly honest outside of early Boost Kick cheese for kos) but by design she holds down a lot of the lower tier characters, including Dedede. There's not much you can do to change this without taking away a lot of the things that make her good, barring turning Dedede into pre-3.5 PM Bowser with super armor on everything.

Constantly active super armor would be awesome. Give it to me!

Sonic, Yoshi, and Megaman are all around the same level of difficulty (read: crazy annoying to neigh bloody impossible), depending on who's playing them.

Megaman is cancer, but I have been able to cheese wins out of a Megaman with edgeguards before, so the matchup is not fun, but not impossible. I also hate the Yoshi matchup, and he is harder to edgeguard, but it can be done. Also Yoshi isn't as bad as megaman in the neutral, but still very annoying.

On the topic of meta knight, he can true combo us into death fairly easily with up air chains into shuttle loop. And its inescapable! That matchup is just heavily dependent on the stage. Avoid low ceilings like the plague! If the ceiling is high enough, he is just similar to Kirby in that you can kiss the first half of your stock goodbye to combos, but then he struggles to kill.

 

[Flawed]

Megaman is beatable. (along with duck hunt- which apparently you guys have tons of trouble with)
I've beaten great megamen(?) and its one of the matchups that you learn after you play 100 times. Hell, even Gunblade has beat Zucco with D3.

I think its really 55-45.
Now I cannot agree with the ZSS being even. Forcing us to respect nair and getting baited into pivot grabs into death is not exactly a fun time. NickRiddle can combo me from 20-70% and then go for a "LOL dthrow up b "cause it still combos since he has little to no rage.
The nair is unbelievable as it has more stun than it should on normal shield (or is it just me) and its nearly 100% safe.

No one has faced a good Ryu, but when you do, lol its a funny matchup. I think its even. Play some of the Ryu's from Arizona

Ryu can play safe with space aerials and be safe on our shield and uptilt, dtilt strings into shoryuken. BUT, at kill percent, we can DI out of uptilt shoryuken. sounds unbelievable? its possible. And even if you DI awfully, you can corner DI and live at 144% lol.
Jab shoryuken will kill though, so thats what to look after.

Ryu does not have a reliable punish to up air poking at the stage if you hit his shield. Although he can Dtilt your recovery if you aren't scaling the stage, repeat up airs off the ledge are safer than other characters

 

[Gunblade789]

Megaman vs DDD is just a test of your brawl chops tbh. Running power shield is your best friend.

DDD vs Zss is a nightmare. I play this on Nairo's stream sometimes and you literally can get death combo'd if you get hit with a falling u-air. Zair is good vs DDD as well. Makes gordo basically irrelevant and is a good poke to stop the big guy so you as Zss can move around and do what you have to do.

DDD vs Ryu is a pretty interesting matchup. I have extensive practice vs one of the best Ryu players in Emblem Lord. This is a very neutral heavy matchup with the player who gets advantage even through positioning, will take the lead and can hold it quite well. Both characters can turtle the other effectively. DDD has the option to poke away at Ryu with very well spaced f-tilts and condition it to grab. Keeping Ryu out of boxing range is key. Besides that Flawed covered this matchup pretty well.

 

[atomicblast360]

What's every ones general thoughts on D3:Duck hunt? (I struggle with it hard)

 

[SoopaDerpcat]

I've honestly never encountered a Duck Hunt as Dedede. Duck hunts are surprisingly rare, and I'm not somebody who only ever plays as my main. I can imagine it would be pretty difficult, but then again a lot of Duck Hunt's projectiles are slow and/or have some pretty long cooldown times. Duck Hunt's melee game isn't terribly good (and his air game is AWEFUL), so I'd probably just try to power shield and maybe roll a bit until I get close enough that he doesn't have time to throw out his projectiles.

As for me, my worst Dedede matchup (well, my worst matchup for almost all of my characters and my playstyle in general) is fabulously stylish son of a bird, . He's just so...perfect against Dedede.
He always just manages to get up in my face and grab me before I have time to react, and once he gets the grab he more or less just kicks me along across the stage until I reach the ledge. Then I have to recover
VERY carefully to avoid getting easily styled with my huge hitbox and hope that I can push him back before he manages to grab me again.

The worst part is that Falcon mains seem to have psychic powers. They somehow know exactly when I'm going to shield, attack or retreat, and always set themselves up for the punish before I even press a button.
If I fail at a read, a punish or a spacing move, there's a 90% chance that the character I just failed against was Captain Falcon. He's a madman. I try to mix it up with gordo throws and aerials, but the Captain is just
too fast and powerful for me.

 

[williamsga555]

I've found Falcon to be a very strange matchup. A lot of his traits indicate he should absolutely stomp us, but I find I go pretty even with them usually.

The matchup feels like Falcon juggles us forever, but, unlike usual Falcon play, he struggles pretty heavily to finish us off. His two spikes all but don't work at all, due to our up b's super armor, our weight lets us survive most knee combos that would otherwise kill, and even things like raptor boost take ages to finish us because our vertical endurance is so good. Our advantage state is also pretty excellent against Falcon, as edgeguarding is incredibly potent against him.

But yeah, I wouldn't say we have an advantage in the MU though. His mobility, combos, and ledge getup coverage (this is super important...I struggle very heavily getting back on stage against a patient Falcon) really stack up. I think it's either even or very slightly in Falcon's favor. Leaning more towards even.

 

[Girthquake]

I've found Falcon to be a very strange matchup. A lot of his traits indicate he should absolutely stomp us, but I find I go pretty even with them usually.

The matchup feels like Falcon juggles us forever, but, unlike usual Falcon play, he struggles pretty heavily to finish us off. His two spikes all but don't work at all, due to our up b's super armor, our weight lets us survive most knee combos that would otherwise kill, and even things like raptor boost take ages to finish us because our vertical endurance is so good. Our advantage state is also pretty excellent against Falcon, as edgeguarding is incredibly potent against him.

But yeah, I wouldn't say we have an advantage in the MU though. His mobility, combos, and ledge getup coverage (this is super important...I struggle very heavily getting back on stage against a patient Falcon) really stack up. I think it's either even or very slightly in Falcon's favor. Leaning more towards even.

I think that Falcon on stage beats us. He has pretty good tools in the neutral against us and has the ability to get in. I think on stage pivot Ftilts and retreating bairs into turn around ftilts are important against someone being aggressive. Though once you get him off stage his recovery is very easy to punish even with our garbage Dair. Between our offstage pressure and covering so many options with Gordo traps we dump him pretty hard once we get him off the stage.

imo the best way to play it is to have a heavily reactionary base play style on stage and press your advantage as hard as possible once you get him off.

I would say the match up is very close to even. Though that's just my experience on WiFi

Basically I agree with you.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I don't know guys, I honestly think we have a slight advantage over Falcon. Let me esplain:
1. Like williamsga555 said it is really difficult for him to KO us as long as you don't let him get a read, or an offstage knee, which if you get hit by are your fault, not the matchup's fault. (Funny story: I once got falcon punched twice in one stock, and did not die from either. No I don't want to talk about how that happened, but I never lost that stock in the entire game!)
2. Like Girthquake said, we can edgeguard this man for DAYS! Captain falcon's biggest weakness is that recovery, and boy can we punish it. If he cannot wall jump on the stage, he has a very linear recovery, and he cannot mix it up much at all, so it's just a matter of punishing it. Combine this fact with fact #1, and we end up killing Falcon at 50-100%, and he ends up killing us at 150-200%, so even if we are taking TWICE the damage he does, we still win!
3. Falcon does not force us to approach. This is HUGE! It allows us a chance at dictating the pace of the match, and we don't have to be power shielding through a billion projectiles. However, falcon's approach game is amazing, but I still prefer it to having to approach.
4. We outrange the man quite comfortably. Sure he is fast, but with good timing and conditioning of the falcon player, we can stuff his approaches, and in the air especially, we can hit him before he can hit us.

I'm not gonna go out there and say that we destroy falcon, our weaknesses in the matchup are still apparent, but we have a LOT of advantages in this matchup. If you can capitalize on these strengths, I honestly believe that the matchup is swayed in our favor. The advantage is small, but I do believe it is there

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Patient Falcons > Patient D3s. Our advantages aren't that pronounced when Falcon can just abuse the hell out of his mobility and bait us out, which is what we usually do to them.

The MU is definitely in his favor.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KeithTheGeek]

It's in his favor but it's one of those match-ups I don't think is hopeless. He's probably the main high tier Dedede is capable of abusing to any significant manner. Of course, key word there is capable, provided we get into our advantage state...

 

[Girthquake]

I mean unless you're delusional and lying to yourself most match ups in the game bar a slight few are negative for DDD. It's just about HOW badly you get pooped on. Falcon doesn't poop on you as hard as say ZSS or Sonic.

Also nice to see you posting Smooth Criminal. I haven't seen you around this character forum since Ryu came out

Tbh I'd say 45/55 Falcons favor

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Well, people keep telling stories about their DDD getting rekt by a falcon, but I have NEVER had that happen to me. In fact, on Anther's ladder, the only time I have ever beaten a player who was in gold league was a falcon player, and not only did I beat him, I went 2-0 on him! No lag, no unfair or outside influences, just a silver III player versus a gold player. He must have known what he was doing to get that high, and I beat him handily. I have never lost to a falcon on Anther's. Also, I have faced a falcon at my local tourney and beat him handily, and while for glory falcons are a horrible indicator, I have never met one that has made me feel like I was at a disadvantage due to my character. They have made me think that I have an advantage!

If the stories are true, I will eventually find a falcon that makes me change my mind, but until I do, I honestly believe that we have an advantage.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, I haven't been posting much of anywhere since then aside from the odd Social. But yeah, for the most part, I'm back. Thanks.

And I agree with that, Girth, it's a matter of degrees in some cases. At least there are some things we can do to offset Falcon in the MU. Discouraging too much wild movement on his part is one of them, and probably key to winning. Working in tandem with midrange Gordo Tosses is a pretty good way of doing that. Sure, Falcon could also take the risk and try to power his way through it, but D3 and his disjointed normals are right there waiting for him at the end of the line. So he's probably gonna try and avoid **** altogether, abusing his mobility to find a gap, and in that situation that's where you have to try and get him. Hopefully he'll overextend himself, and you'll get the advantage.

Just an example

Muskrat Catcher

Honestly, bud, I can understand why you'd think that, but wait 'til you play a Falcon that decides to play patient with you in neutral. Like, super patient. It's nervewracking to know that just about any button you can press will get you punished.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I tend to beat most Falcons I play, at least those that aren't clearly above my skill level, but I think that largely has to do with how people tend to play Falcon. If they would respect Dedede's options more it'd be more one-sided in his favor.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I played Cashmere pretty frequently up until a couple months ago. He's probably one of the best Falcons in Florida, bar none. Think of him as a mini-Fatality.

Falcons that respect Dedede's options and, worse, know how to get around them altogether can be terrifying, trust me.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Aki]

I find it hard to judge matchups like Falcon, that are not as one sided as ZSS for example. Of course individual skill isn't everything but for these kinds of matchups, it feels to me as if it's the only thing that decides the difference. I have yet to lose a set against a Falcon who would beat me in a neutral matchup but if I lost to a Falcon, he would most likely also be able to beat me with another character.

 

[williamsga555]

Can attest that patient Falcon's are a real pain to face. Ties pretty heavily to what I was talking about with him covering our ledge getups.

If we're on the ledge, Falcon just standing right outside of getup attack range is awful for us. He can punish basically any of our options super easily and safely if he just waits it out. Standard getup loses to jab, dash grab, sh bair. Jump loses to sh bair. Roll is a free punish if he reacts properly. Found I've had to either just endure the pain until he finally guesses wrong, or bait something out with ledgedropping. If he's patient enough that option does nothing.

Still, though, if the matchup isn't even, I think it's damn near close to it.

Also, run-off aerials are hilarious against Falcon.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

The only advantage over Falcon I have is that I'm the only DeDeDe player in my area (I'd say State, but there might be one guy that doesn't go to tournaments), so no one knows what to do against me.

 

[Dar4]

Yep, falcon wrecks dedede sadly. With his speed he can pretty much punish anything we do. Plus combo us for days and then gimp our up B hard. Good falcons are super though to beat with Dedede, probably a 60-40 matchup at the very best at high level honestly. #3 ranked player in my state mains him. I would never play Dedede against him. I did once and it wasn't pretty. Pretty much have to make soul reads to win.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

So I did a spontaneous write-up of everything I could possibly think of in my experience against. It was on the Discord chat so unfortunately I couldn't copy/paste it so I screencapped it. Tell me what you think and hopefully it helps out a bit.

(also Soul Train it is my humble opinion that this thread should be stickied.)

 

[Aki]

I think the main problem against Ryu is that his Shoryuken kills DDD retardedly early and is easy to pull off, too. Unless I am doing something terribly wrong, dying at around 90-100% against Ryu is not that rare.
As for Gordos, Ryu has fair, up air and Hadouken to keep them away.
I don't mean that the matchup is terrible but 55/45 is too optimistic if DDD can't even abuse his weight and recovery.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Kinda funny that you guys bring up Ryu right now. Just yesterday at my local tourney, I two stocked the second best Ryu in SoCal, NCJacobT. Although, maybe I got a bit lucky. The first time I got knocked off stage, I baited him to come out to far to try to get a follow up, then he found that he was too far from the stage to recover even though I still could, and he died pretty early. I don't know if that counts as an SD, because it was my intention to have him do that. Then I just beat him out on the next stock by abusing my range and survivability. Ryu is not scary to me at all when I play DDD, even with a player like NCJacobT, who is much better than me in terms of raw skill. Afterwards he switched to his main, Pikachu, and rekt me, but that just goes to show how good the matchup versus Ryu is in comparison.

It was a pretty funny moment though. Jacob is power ranked in so cal, and he lost his first tournament game to a nobody playing DDD. All the people watching were calling him a fraud, and he changed his tag to NBJacobT (I don't know what it stands for but it looked like he did it out of shame)

 

[Deleted member]

I made my own personal MU chart for Dedede. Miis are not counted because literally nobody cares about those characters.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Wow, that's a cool website/program! I agree with almost all of those. My only major differences would probably be making the Diddy, Link, Toon Link matchup even more in their favor, giving Palutena, Doc, Pac man, Lucas, and Greninja a slight advantage, and putting Lucario and Captain Falcon at slight advantage (those would be my opinions though). Maybe I will make one of these. Looks fun!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah not taking that chart seriously unless we include Miis. People do play those characters where/when they're able. We should be as inclusive as possible, and not only just for the sake of data. If you see where I'm going with this.

Sorry bud.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah not taking that chart seriously unless we include Miis. People do play those characters where/when they're able. We should be as inclusive as possible, and not only just for the sake of data. If you see where I'm going with this.

Sorry bud.

Smooth Criminal

My apologies, I shouldn't have been so close-minded. I remade the chart with Miis included, but this assumes any set or weight is allowed for them. If it were 1111, guest size then Dedede beats them all solidly I'd say.

 

[Flawed]

So I did a spontaneous write-up of everything I could possibly think of in my experience against. It was on the Discord chat so unfortunately I couldn't copy/paste it so I screencapped it. Tell me what you think and hopefully it helps out a bit.

(also Soul Train it is my humble opinion that this thread should be stickied.)

-If you sweetspot the ledge while scaling battlefield dsmash will hit you 100%
-If you sweetspot the ledge while not scalling battlefield, dsmash can also hit you, just so much less likely.
-If you sweespot straight up on smashville, you are safe.
-If you scale and or sweetspot FD, you are safe

-UP TILT Shoryuken IS DI-able for the fat king. PLEASE LAB AND LEARN GUYS.
-jab shoryuken is not. you should die from this and only this





Now, Falcon.

My matches against fatality consist of

-starting the neutral
-bodying him to 138% on his final stock while im on first stock
- him getting a dthrow, nair
-falling up air into down air
-im dead from some 30ish percent spike.
-Second stock same thing

game 2
-starting neutral
-he dash around fthrow, dash attack
-i try to land, get nair'd u-air'd
-i go to reset to ledge
-he down air me through the stage as i up b.
- i laugh because i dont know what else to do
-He tells me he can space it onstage to spike when D3 is about to grab ledge because of his model size
-i lose

 

[Aki]

-UP TILT Shoryuken IS DI-able for the fat king. PLEASE LAB AND LEARN GUYS.

How do you DI that? If he hits you with one up tilt, the Shoryuken comes out too fast to be able to get out. Unless you mean up tilt chains.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You can SDI out of Ryu's light utilt. Not sure if you can do it fast enough and get away from a True SRK in time, though. Need to lab this.

Smooth Criminal