Has Marth been overrall buffed of nerfed?

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Can't decide, nuetral b is worse, and you can't use recover with side b anymore, but in combat it's BEAST

 

[JesiahTEG]

Hmm, let's take the factors you've posted.

His neutral B is worse.

You can't recover with Side B.

Side B is BEAST in combat.

That's 1 pro, and 2 cons. ****. Guess Marth is nerfed...

 

[Caspid]

Nerfed. The new gameplay mechanics have taken away his combo ability, and he has a little less speed, power, and range this time around. Even though the changes're small compared to other characters', he's still not as good as he was in Melee.

That being said, the neutral B you mentioned charges a little faster and gives pretty good horizontal recovery, and isn't half bad for edgeguarding. I find myself using it more than I did in Melee. And like you said, side B has been improved. He's got a ton of options out of shield, most notably up B (which seems to have a little more range and horizontal movement this time around). Finally, his counter is buffed beyond belief and makes for an amazing utility move.

 

[ForteEscape]

Nerfed. The new gameplay mechanics have taken away his combo ability, and he has a little less speed, power, and range this time around. Even though the changes're small compared to other characters', he's still not as good as he was in Melee.

That being said, the neutral B you mentioned charges a little faster and gives pretty good horizontal recovery, and isn't half bad for edgeguarding. I find myself using it more than I did in Melee. And like you said, side B has been improved. He's got a ton of options out of shield, most notably up B (which seems to have a little more range and horizontal movement this time around). Finally, his counter is buffed beyond belief and makes for an amazing utility move.

How could you say he was nerfed when you just mentioned a ton of pros, all of which are very good and outweigh his cons?

Losing combo ability from melee means nothing. No character can combo well, and if they can, it doesn't/shouldn't last very long.

The shorter sword bothers me, yes. I've missed on many fsmashes in brawl that would have been a direct hit in melee. But that's not something I can't get used to.

And to the OP: Neutral b is NOT worse. If you see someone shielding, shieldbreaker them. It's a lot more effective/faster than it was in melee (at least that's what it seems like) Even if you don't charge it it still destroys shields. Hence the name. Dur.

 

[TickleMePick1e]

he has been nerfed he cant combo

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dumbest ****ing post I have read in quite awhile.

 

[Iwan]

Hmm, let's take the factors you've posted.

His neutral B is worse.

You can't recover with Side B.

Side B is BEAST in combat.

That's 1 pro, and 2 cons. ****. Guess Marth is nerfed...

True you can't use dancing blade as recovery anymore, but the shield breaker (if knocked high enough) is definitely a useful way of recovering (using that then dolphin slash).

 

[Black_Lion]

look Marth hasnt been nerfed... Anyone complaining still has hopes and dreams that brawl is melee it aint. Two reasons why shield breaker was changed 1. His sword is historically known as a thrust weapon not a slash weapon thus like a rapier he lunges. 2. Other than areial manuverability the melee SB shared the same properties of the dragon slayer and as a shield break (i.e. its true function) is to break shields a thrust is much faster sorry if u melee fanatics are having such a hard time adknowledging that brawl aint melee so combo are gone o well if thats all u relied on might wanna play another character wait.... all characters hav gone through changes (***** about sheik she got screwed way more than marth do I digress) This is brawl not melee. In most cases recovery has gotten so easy for everyone the side b tactic is truly no longer needed is u truly (and I use this loosely) need more recovery use th new SB (wow useful already) So all these complainers is a new game may be u should switch your style up (OMG am I speaking in tongues!!!) even M2K the guy most of u guyz "wanna be" like altered his style (imagine that one of the best marth players didnt complain and adapted.) And if you suck it aint cuz of brawl its cuz u SUCK

 

[Proverbs]

Okay, there's been some serious misinformation. I won't even bother quoting it, as it probably sticks out in your mind that someone said that Marth was slower in Brawl. WHAT!? Marth gained a decent amount of speed in Brawl and it's easy to see, allowing him to play at a much higher speed. True he can't really combo now, but does that nerf him? Not necessarily. As it's been mentioned, comboing is less pronounced in Brawl than it was in Melee, any sort of recovering is easier, everything's l-cancelled, and you can shield ridiculously fast. On the subject of recovery, yeah, his over+B can't help you recover anymore, but shieldbreaker can, and even so, his Dolphin Blade reaches higher now and you immediately sweetspot the edge. Not only that, but you also (and correct me if I'm wrong) seem to auto-tip anyone with Dolphin Blade, which also seems to have less lag time now and can be actually used in battle (*gasp* this'd be taboo in Melee except possibly for an aerial reverse Dolphin Blade to stop a recovery) . And, need I mention Dancing Blade which is not only faster, but stronger, easier to get out all four moves even by just spamming over+B, and actually worthy of use. Honestly, Marth has gained a lot, but he's also lost some nice touches we loved from Melee. Does this ruin him as a character? Far from it. Some of his moves KO easier (need I mention the back-air which also comes out faster now?) and he can easily survive in combat. Once again on the subject of recovery, Brawl has little of it now, a lot less than Melee anyway. Edgeguarding, although important, is not as pronounced as it was in Melee so, yeah, once again, more reason to disregard the loss of over+B recovery. Marth is a slightly different character now, but I don't think he's gotten worse. At the very least, he's been changed, but has lost and gained equal amounts, and that's probably the worst view you can have of him (except for no projectiles, but we're talking about changes from Melee to Brawl). Overall, Marth is still a very viable main.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The fact that everyone but Toon Link and Lucario are scared witless of him must mean something...I've never been a Marth player, but in order to be able to beat him, I study him closely. (I could play a better than average Marth in Melee, despite never practising with him as a main.) and IMO he's not at all nerfed enough.

 

[Lib3r4t3]

The only thing nerfed about him that I see is his range. He seems much more powerful this time around.

 

[UltimaXtreme]

new gameplay mechanics is already a valid argument to say he's been nerfed

 

[alchfilosofer]

new gameplay mechanics is already a valid argument to say he's been nerfed

that means EVERYONE is nerfed compared to melee (and that is a stupid lie), and it's a lame argument, because melee marth and brawl marth have different stiles. One has more combos running speed, little more range, ken combos, and easy recovery, and the other has, killer aerials (if tipped), better B-moves (counter, shield breaker, dancing blade and dolphin slash are awesome moves in combat), harder but better recovery and less lag.
If you can't adapt to that, marth is nerfed, if you can adapt to that marth is equal/buffed. But an overall new player will be better whit brawl marth, because has BETTER moves (all B, all aerials but the down aerial, better U and D smash)

 

[Epick]

Anyone who says Marth is nerfed is a moron

To the moron who says he can't combo anymore.... I really shouldn't even justify it with a response but the fact of the matter is nobody can easily combo anymore. Brawl combos are going to look a lot different than melee combos and use much more move variety once they start to be developed. The fact of the matter is any player worth is salt should be able to break pretty much every combo from every character right now.

Maybe if you took brawl Marth and somehow ported him back to melee he could possibly be nerfed. Everyone crying about Marth being nerfed is simply doing that in their mind. You really need to look at him now COMPARED TO OTHER BRAWL CHARACTERS, IN THE GAME SSBB and not compare him to melee characters in the game SSBM.

Marth is a beast now and he is for sure moving up the tier list, IMO he'll be top tier no worse than 3rd overall if that.

 

[Black_Lion]

Thank You!! new game mechanics means a new marth gameplay!! Im glad there are still sensible marth players in the world! Also people complaining that marth's range has been shorten, guess what anyone how has a sword from melee are all shorter (its called balance so we dont b*tch about tier listing) im sorry if all u dragonslayer spammers cant tip like 2 yr olds anymore time to grow up and work for your kill. It seems like you guyz want the most unbalanced character like in melee (peaches down smash in melee, fox' lack of lag frames, sheiks f+air and rdiculous speed, marths speed power attack recovry time wow i jus listed the top 4 characters in melee) Brawl aimed to balance the gameplay and they did a pretty good job jus cuz u sorry marth players get ur *** handed to u by ness doesnt mean you suck (even though most of the complainers probably do) it means that its equal opprotunity for all characters

 

[Epick]

And to people complaining about tipping now... I think I was pissed about Marth's shortened range for maybe 30 minutes. Within an hour or two I was tipping every time just like in Melee. Sure it's slightly harder now, but any good player should be able to tip every single time with ease after a little practice.

Oh and guess what, his sword may be shorter but compared to other characters he still has range advantage. Example: If you can still tip fox during a move and still beat him with your disjointed hitbox and take no damage then what difference does it make whether he gets two inches closer before you rock his world?

 

[AllGoodNamesAreTaken]

We can't really say that hes worse than he was in Melee... we had 7 years of experience with Marth in Melee and Brawl was only out for around 2 weeks. It'll take time for us to realize if Marth has been buffed or nerfed. Everyone in brawl is still looking for ways to make their characters faster, stronger and overall more effective.

Now, I think that he has been nerfed a bit. Shorter range, brawl's nearly non-existant stun time... heck that screwed up his amazing combo ability. But some of his move have improved A BIT. Like his upsmash for example, ALOT more useful than it was in Melee. His shield breaker is somewhat more effective. Sword Dance is ALOT BETTER. His counter is somewhat faster as well.

In conclusion, he may have lost the things that made him one of the best characters in Melee, but he has also improved on the moves that were looked down upon. So really I think Marth barely changed in terms on how well he is able to fight against other characters. Just give people time to work on Marth and I'm sure we'll see he is just as capable as his Melee counterpart.

 

[TheKingofDes]

i think he was slightly buffed, his charge B move has an extended reach.

 

[Ryan-K]

oh for ****s sake

why does combo ability matter?

NOONE CAN ****ING COMBO IN THIS GAME

holy **** you people are dense

like all his moves kill, he has more kill moves than he did in melee, and still has more range than most of the cast, not to mention the overall nerf to horizontal movement in this game makes it harder to deal with range.

his neutral b fully charged is ridiculously good for recovery, and maybe if some of you played for more than 5 seconds you would realize some of these basic things.

He was buffed. Now shut up

 

[tsuji]

In my opinion marth was a bit buffed due to his increased knockback ability but if we think about the other characters who have been improved/buffed greatly (almost all character have potential), I would say that Marth has been nerfed compared to SSBM. Alot of different characters can win against Marth.

 

[Renegade31]

nerfed. the only thing i like better this time around is the fact that you dont have to time his >B as much as in melee. now he cant recover with >B, his neutral B sucks , his counter had a slower prep time (barely, but it makes a difference) and you cant do the ken combo as well

 

[error_alt_delete]

marth himself hasnt been nerfed, but, due to the fact that all characters can stand up to him now, in a different sense, he has been nerfed. so now he isnt "god tier" but he is still a good character.

 

[Lucan Desmond]

I think he's much better than before. In Melee I barely touched the B button when using him because his nueb was too slow and predictable, his f + b was slow and barely did anything except in the last hit, and his upB was completely useless for anything other than recovery. The B button in Melee was basically just for recovery with marth.

Now his shield breaker move is MUCH better in range, speed and its good for recovery! Plus in melee what was the point to it anyway? It was IDENTICAL to his fsmash, but you could charge it more. And if you actually got it fully charged and connected with it than that doesn't mean your a good player, it just means your opponent is completely ********.
Dancing blade is faster and stronger, but lost its recovery ability.... not even counting that as a loss since it just moved to the shield breaker attack.
Counter doesn't seem to have changed much, maybe a little faster?
And finally Dolohin Slash... its actually worth using in combat! It has a longer reach, does more damage and has more throw!

The only thing Marth truly lost was range. His sword IS shorter by a few pixels, but I've already gotten used to it. And in the end I'm just rejoicing that I can finally use an attack other than his fair and fsmash and actually have that attack do something. I mained Marth in melee and I like the Brawl version of him much more.

 

[Robin60062]

Up Smash out of shield is the sexiest buff ever.

 

[Doomblaze]

And side-b being useable is the second sexiest buff ever.

 

[kario_mart]

n-n-n-n-nerrrfed!
but sorta ok? i guess. i mean if u look at ganon... and compare... its not that bad.

 

[Plasmaexe]

He's gotten a lot of buffs with tipping easily killing characters at 50% and his dancing blades actually comboes now. However he doesn't get the bit of horizontal distance from dancing blades in the air (Shield breaker charging is only viable if you're high in the air, not next to the stage under the edge or cliff) and with things like Kirby's drill kick working a lot better now, he's pretty easy to spike now without giving him much of a chance to recover. His throws aren't nearly as good now though, but I'm wondering if he has that chain throw that he had in Melee, which I doubt. The new air dodging system though makes it a lot easier to avoid his forward airs now though and the mechanics of this game of people being more floaty makes it easier to edge guard him.

 

[Jibbles]

Marth is neither buffed or nerfed

He's just different

This is Brawl, not Melee

He's got better specials, better Up Smash, stronger tip

He's lost grab range, sword range and insane comboing

At this point, it is impossible to tell if the new buffs can overcome the nerfs

Brawl is still new. Melee Marth has been played for about 7 years.

 

[Crappular]

Anyone who says Marth is nerfed is a moron

To the moron who says he can't combo anymore.... I really shouldn't even justify it with a response but the fact of the matter is nobody can easily combo anymore. Brawl combos are going to look a lot different than melee combos and use much more move variety once they start to be developed. The fact of the matter is any player worth is salt should be able to break pretty much every combo from every character right now.

Maybe if you took brawl Marth and somehow ported him back to melee he could possibly be nerfed. Everyone crying about Marth being nerfed is simply doing that in their mind. You really need to look at him now COMPARED TO OTHER BRAWL CHARACTERS, IN THE GAME SSBB and not compare him to melee characters in the game SSBM.

Marth is a beast now and he is for sure moving up the tier list, IMO he'll be top tier no worse than 3rd overall if that.

Maybe, but not nearly as large a moron as you are. And since everything is relative, I guess we would be geniuses compared to you.

Yes, comboing for everyone is harder now. However, Marth was exceptional at it in melee, making it one of his primary strengths. Logically, by everyone losing the ability to easily combo, it affects the characters who relied on it and utilized it the most, ie Marth. Of course, some may have also been hurt as much or more than Marth in this respect, but the point remains. The nerf to comboing hurt some characters more than others. It wasn't just a universal change affecting everyone equally.

He also suffered in two other areas. Firstly, Marth lost TONS of grab range. Again, this was one of his best and most frequently abused moves. It wasn't just a small nerf. Secondly, his range was reduced, albeit only by a small/moderate amount, depending on how you want to look at it. However, the implications it has on a character who heavily relied on tipping is significant.

In return, he got a few buffs to a few specific moves. Counter, neutral B, and Up B being three.

I believe that Marth was moderately nerfed. My argument is also far superior to yours, which entails some vague and ambiguous situation of porting SSBB Marth to SSBM. Seeing as this is the case, you should kindly shut the hell up and stop hypocritically calling others moronic. Thanks.

 

[alchfilosofer]

Yes, comboing for everyone is harder now. However, Marth was exceptional at it in melee, making it one of his primary strengths. Logically, by everyone losing the ability to easily combo, it affects the characters who relied on it and utilized it the most, ie Marth. Of course, some may have also been hurt as much or more than Marth in this respect, but the point remains. The nerf to comboing hurt some characters more than others. It wasn't just a universal change affecting everyone equally.

In return, he got a few buffs to a few specific moves. Counter, neutral B, and Up B being three.

I believe that Marth was moderately nerfed. My argument is also far superior to yours, which entails some vague and ambiguous situation of porting SSBB Marth to SSBM. Seeing as this is the case, you should kindly shut the hell up and stop hypocritically calling others moronic. Thanks.

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ALL top tiers in melee had awesome combos, and all lose them (except sheik). so ALL melee top tiers were affected in a very similar level for the lack of combos.

You forget TONS of buffed moves, like dancing blade (if used in peack of second jump, stills get you a little boost), Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Uair, Bair, Fair (in kill potential), Nair...

And you should STFU and stop trying to be an troll ***** whit no REAL argument.

 

[Crappular]

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ALL top tiers in melee had awesome combos, and all lose them (except sheik). so ALL melee top tiers were affected in a very similar level for the lack of combos.

You forget TONS of buffed moves, like dancing blade (if used in peack of second jump, stills get you a little boost), Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Uair, Bair, Fair (in kill potential), Nair...

And you should STFU and stop trying to be an troll ***** whit no REAL argument.

I heard ASCII pictures were a good way to start an argument, grammatical/spelling errors good midway through, and STFU a good way to end it.

Now, as for your first statement, I like how you snuck in the word "top tiers". I'm not sure what you couldn't understand about "some may have also been hurt as much or more than Marth in this respect," but that's not my problem. What about non top tier chars? Some characters who didn't warrant a second look in melee have suddenly grown a lot stronger now. What about the completely new brawl chars? Hence, my statement still stands.

Second statement. Dsmash is the same. Dtilt is slightly nerfed. Uair is practically the same, with perhaps a bit more kill power at the top of the stage. As you said, Usmash, ->B, F/Bair, Nair are all better. However, the reduction in his range affects almost all of his moves globally, which is something to consider. Also, Dair blows donkey balls now, Fsmash was nerfed slightly as well, along with Utilt.

But hey, calling someone a "troll ***** whit no REAL argument" is just brilliant. And by brilliant, I mean something that a fifth grader would be too mature for.

 

[alchfilosofer]

I heard ASCII pictures were a good way to start an argument, grammatical/spelling errors good midway through, and STFU a good way to end it.

Now, as for your first statement, I like how you snuck in the word "top tiers". I'm not sure what you couldn't understand about "some may have also been hurt as much or more than Marth in this respect," but that's not my problem. What about non top tier chars? Some characters who didn't warrant a second look in melee have suddenly grown a lot stronger now. What about the completely new brawl chars? Hence, my statement still stands.

Second statement. Dsmash is the same. Dtilt is slightly nerfed. Uair is practically the same, with perhaps a bit more kill power at the top of the stage. As you said, Usmash, ->B, F/Bair, Nair are all better. However, the reduction in his range affects almost all of his moves globally, which is something to consider. Also, Dair blows donkey balls now, Fsmash was nerfed slightly as well, along with Utilt.

But hey, calling someone a "troll ***** whit no REAL argument" is just brilliant. And by brilliant, I mean something that a fifth grader would be too mature for.

Well, the only melee mid/low tiers characters in melee who appear to have chances of being top/high tier are Zelda, Luigi and may Game and Watch ( i may be wrong in this one). Also the new characters whit top/high tier potential seems to be: Pit, Olimar, Dedede, toon link, ...Snake (maybe). BUT this treat is to tell if Marth has been overall buffed or nerfed so this is off-topic.

Dtilt is nerfed and at the same time is faster and give Marth a little of impulse?, Uair is a WAY BETTER if you ask me, I mean it can kill at 112% and in melee you need like 170%.
also if you make count of the buffed/nerfed moves you can tell if Marth has an buff or a nerf: nerfed: Fsmash, Utilt, Dair Grab/trows (4) = 7 moves. Buffed: all b moves (4 (can be 12 since dancing blade is 9 moves in one)), u/n/b/fair, dtilt, Usmash = 10/18.
and tell me if so many buffed moves can't help the nerfed range

also sorry about "no REAL argument".let me change it to "some fake argument"

 

[V]

i dont think either. i just think he's different. some attacks are nerfed some are buffered

 

[Hydde]

I think most of his moves has been bufed, but for personal preference and the way i used him in melee, for ME, his gameplay has been nerfed.

Moves like dancing blade, up smash, fair and the godly dolphin out of shield received new buffes and utilities, which is great. But things which were like the epitome of marth gameplay were severely nerfed in my view.

-The range of his sword, which was like the bane of everyone, now is not as good. Yes, he has better range that a lot of the cast and can dominate indeed, but it feels anyways strange. At the beggining i was like " well ok is not much different", but in the past few days i have noticed that i has been failing alot of hits because i just cant dominate the range now.

-Edguarding: Well, everyone has been ****ed up in this department, but marth in melee was dependant of his edguard. I know, he has some other killing moves now, but with the overall floatiness, marth still cannot kill some characters until very high %. Other charcasters do not have edguard either but, they have very pwerfull KO moves to compensate. Marth has his tipper, but is not as reliable as , let say, a wolf down smash. You can still go out and gimp people with fair, but is not always possibleto hit the incoming enemy.

-Grab: This, of all the other factors is what has severed my gameplay the most. I relied a lot on dash dancing and grab game. Now Marth has a very disgusting grab, he cant rely on it anymore, which was like his second best bet in melee. Not to mention that he doesnt have anymore grab combos (yeah , almost no one does, but again, marth depended on them alot)

But the real problem for me is not the lag of good grab, but the fact that marth´s mindgames are now so simplistic that i just dont find it funny anymore. Now, marths metagame is simplistic, but in a not so good way, and when things turn ugly, he is forced to camp and camp and camp... in front of the enemy. He has become so predictable that people when fighting marth, tend to camp A LOT more. Before you cannot do that excesively because of the range and speed of his grab (and of course, sffl), but now, there is no problem, just camp that marth.

I was not the tactical type of Marth. I relied a lot on fakes, and when i got the chance of a grab or a free hit, i improvised combos combined with set rules of marth´s metagame to finish people. Now, ina game that u need to wait a lot more, and bait and, well, camp more, I dont find my style being as usefull, and will certainly force me to adapt the new more campy style of marth.
Another friends of mine, who relied much more on tactical approaches and camping are now having a good time with him, but im not.

I still main marth and will certainly continue being my main, but i just find him not as cool or as versatile as before.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No one is as versatile as before.

Brawl is a campfest and even though Marth has no projectile he is actually a very good camper thanks to his speed and range.

So camp away.

 

[alchfilosofer]

to: "Hydde"

sorry if u can't play very good marth in brawl, but the gameplay and character in brawl is much more different. he had lose some of his better cards (and almost anyone can't use any of these cards, so it's not a big problem), but he make stronger his weakness leaving now whit almost 0 useless moves (except grabs), and that make his overused moves penalty don't be of worry. and for me that is enough to say he was buffed (at least for my not_spam_any_move_Marth, which i had always been attached since melee).

 

[Mew2King]

he's been nerfed, but not that significantly

 

[alchfilosofer]

he's been nerfed, but not that significantly

no offense, but if you don't put evidence there nobody can seriously take that like a fact, no mater if you're a pro or not (and even less if the evidence is pointing to the opposite side)

 

[pichuthethundergod]

I can't say whether he's been buffed or nerfed, all I know is that I do better with him now than I did in melee. In fact he feels more like Roy now, who I preferred anyway.

 

[Anklez15]

The only thing nerfed about him that I see is his range. He seems much more powerful this time around.

i have to agree 100% with u and also for the people who say u cant use side b to recover big deal only the first side b in melee actually helped him with horizontal distance the rest was all di