How should I be edgeguarding with Ike?

[mistermoo33]

What are my options? I have been trying eruption, fair, dair, nair and occasionally counter, either on the recovery itself or on the ledge attack if I read it.

 

[BSL]

That's about it. If they don't have a teleporting recovery, eruption should work pretty well.

 

[Tacticulbacon]

What are my options? I have been trying eruption, fair, dair, nair and occasionally counter, either on the recovery itself or on the ledge attack if I read it.

I find that charging fsmash or usmash seems to do well enough, because people underestimate Ike's range and end up getting ragnell'd to oblivion. Sometimes you could even scare them into sd'ing.

 

[san.]

All of the above. It depends on what you're comfortable with and the situation at hand. Sometimes even dash attack and angled ftilts work.

 

[mistermoo33]

Played some more Ike tonight, have had the most success with fair especially if I train them to think I'll just edgeguard with eruption because the online input delay makes hitting the fair easier. It can KO too. Still working on the eruption timing.

 

[SuaveChaser]

Bair offstage works alot lol.

 

[Narigo1]

Dtilt is a really good edgeguarding tool imo.

 

[Doomedo]

Is Ike's counter any good for edgeguarding like Melee Marth?

 

[Burandin]

Good question indeed

 

[Mario766]

Most characters can sweet spot the ledge with their recoveries, so counter wouldn't do much good. You're better off going for an aerial or waiting for them to do something from the ledge.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Fair primarily for high recoveries.
Aether for Pikachu.
Bair against the wall or stage if they're going in low and hugging the stage's edge
Dair after hitting the edge while they're recovering.
Eruption if they try to recover low.
GRAB the rest. Anyone who comes back onstage, grab, pummel, and BThrow them.

Mixup Eruption and Bair. Conditioning players is helpful. But understand that Ike's true strength comes from cornering an enemy. Ike is a fairly slow character. What better way to beat someone down than to limit their mobility?

 

[TeeJay308]

DTilt is useful against DK. I hit him out of his UpB repeatedly. Might be good against other characters as well (Bowser probably? His UpB seems similar)

 

[Nysyarc]

DTilt is useful against DK. I hit him out of his UpB repeatedly. Might be good against other characters as well (Bowser probably? His UpB seems similar)

Bowser can mash his upB to get a lot more height and just go over it, but since Dtilt is so quick you could use it to cover low and then still hit Bowser off with something else if he tries to go over you. Also if DK is using his custom upB with the ridiculous windbox I don't think Dtilt will still work, but I could be wrong.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Eruption for Bowser and Donkey Kong.

Not Aether, what was I thinking...

 

[LoreLes]

Fair and Bair are your best friends for edgeguarding. If we're talking options when people are hanging on the ledge then Fair for the obvious jump recovery, jabs for getup or roll recovery and ftilt/dtilt for ledge attack.

 

[X-ian]

I usually go b-air on high recoveries and f-air if I'm going low and relatively deep off stage. People don't usually expect the double jump b-air considering Ike's weight. Aether has it's place for swatting down attempts of high recoveries as well. Also, with the active attack time of f-air, a back throw can lead to the opponent trying to recover quickly leading them right into Ragnell.

If I don't have time to set something up, I usually stand off with a Eruption or sometimes just wait with the down tilt. Going for the pummel throw usually works if my opponent is wise to either 2 of those options. Oh, and if you're trying to cover jump attacks off the ledge, you can usually get them with the f-air fastfall to launch them back offstage.

 

[blaqmystt]

i like b air because then your facing the stage ready for recovery, but hey, whatever suits the situation i suppose

 

[Jotunn]

Use F-Tilt for the quick, extended reach of an attack while you stand at the edge. It works more often than one would think and it is capable of taking away double jumps, in addition it will accurately punish delayed recovery or even lead to a surprise kill on the sweat spot.

This is a good delayed strike as many will anticipate the forward smash time to time so its a relatively strong read.

Eruption does however work in an identical fashion to F-Tilt, but is more reliable for punishing closer recovery when one anticipates the U-Smash due to it's deceptively long range. Making use of the super armor could help but I can't be entirely sure of it because patches.

Every body else covered just about everything else.

 

[PyroTakun]

"How should I be edguarding with Ike?"

Like a boss

 

[busken]

Can Ike's dtilt spike like it did in brawl? Because if It can then one good option would be Perfect Pivoting into dtilt which is great for characters that like to recover low like shiek.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Can Ike's dtilt spike like it did in brawl? Because if It can then one good option would be Perfect Pivoting into dtilt which is great for characters that like to recover low like shiek.

It actually launches enemies upwards now.

 

[⑨ball]

No one here mentioned ledge trumped bairs?

They're kind of amazing and force players afraid of them(as well they should be) to do some pretty risky things.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

No one here mentioned ledge trumped bairs?

They're kind of amazing and force players afraid of them(as well they should be) to do some pretty risky things.

Doesn't work on guys like Little Mac who can Up B through the ledge before grabbing them.

The most efficient way I've found to ledge-trump someone is to roll towards the edge of the stage and do the run-off method. However, this isn't always going to work because I constantly find myself falling off the stage and past the ledge.

Also, when it does work sometimes, players can roll up back onto the stage before they get trumped off the ledge.

 

[⑨ball]

Doesn't work on guys like Little Mac who can Up B through the ledge before grabbing them.

The most efficient way I've found to ledge-trump someone is to roll towards the edge of the stage and do the run-off method. However, this isn't always going to work because I constantly find myself falling off the stage and past the ledge.

Also, when it does work sometimes, players can roll up back onto the stage before they get trumped off the ledge.

Who the hell cares about edgeguarding Little Mac? Most strings from Ike will send him too far offstage to recover anyway. You can Ftilt and smash him UpBing, and fair his sideB. He's not really an issue.

As for trumping, the run off method works well. In order to avoid the trump with a getup option they have to input it immediately, meaning they're gambling with options a player can react to easily. One's I might add that can all be covered with Usmash pretty efficiently.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Who the hell cares about edgeguarding Little Mac? Most strings from Ike will send him too far offstage to recover anyway. You can Ftilt and smash him UpBing, and fair his sideB. He's not really an issue.

As for trumping, the run off method works well. In order to avoid the trump with a getup option they have to input it immediately, meaning they're gambling with options a player can relate to easily. One's I might add that can all be covered with Usmash pretty efficiently.

Fight Renegade because your Little Mac opponents are too easy.

 

[⑨ball]

You can say that about literally any character. The question isn't "how do I edgeguard this player ?" it's "what options do I have against this character ?"

If a player is good, that's fantastic. It just doesn't change the fact that Little Mac's recovery is garbage and loses to plethora of subpar options.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

You can say that about literally any character. The question isn't "how do I edgeguard this player ?" it's "what options do I have against this character ?"

If a player is good, that's fantastic. It just doesn't change the fact that Little Mac's recovery is garbage and loses to plethora of subpar options.

They don't launch him far enough. Most of the time, Renegade recovered without needing the third jump. At high damage, he could use Up B when a Side B would have been the more common option.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Well, I've come to a point that I get scared to edgeguard someone. One reason is because players with certain characters are very good at turning that around on you quickly. Counter-gimping is very annoying because it makes you feel like you shouldn't have went for it or just charged Eruption instead.

If it's not a walk-off Fair, I usually don't edgeguard. Jumping out there for a Fair is risky, but sometimes I can nail it. Players tend to recover awkwardly low, so it's very hard to get to their level to take them out. Sometimes I can do a walk-off Bair if I angle it properly against their recovery. Then there's also walk-off Nair, but it never really nails them into the stage for a stage-spike. More often than not, I find them taking damage and getting sent upwards, making it even easier for them to recover back on stage.

Feel like I'm drastically running out of options. Eruption is my favorite method as it's the safest.

 

[Arrei]

I'm not very confident in my offstage game due to how gimpable Ike is himself - I only go for the offstage finisher when I think my opponent doesn't expect it. For example, I almost always go for the Eruption edgeguard instead, and when I do go offstage I tend to make predictable single jumps off with one attack at some point, then use my double jump back and Aether to get back when I miss. But the latter's purpose isn't really to edgeguard them, unless they're the sort to make very obvious recoveries like double jumping the instant they're Fthrow or Dthrown off the stage - it's so I can suddenly go for a more daring move when the time is right and hopefully it catches them off guard.

 

[⑨ball]

They don't launch him far enough. Most of the time, Renegade recovered without needing the third jump. At high damage, he could use Up B when a Side B would have been the more common option.

If they're not launching as far as you like, you might want to look at some other options. I know you're partial to counter at the ledge against Little Mac even though I advised against it. Why not try Ftilt in that MU?

Well, I've come to a point that I get scared to edgeguard someone. One reason is because players with certain characters are very good at turning that around on you quickly. Counter-gimping is very annoying because it makes you feel like you shouldn't have went for it or just charged Eruption instead.

If it's not a walk-off Fair, I usually don't edgeguard. Jumping out there for a Fair is risky, but sometimes I can nail it. Players tend to recover awkwardly low, so it's very hard to get to their level to take them out. Sometimes I can do a walk-off Bair if I angle it properly against their recovery. Then there's also walk-off Nair, but it never really nails them into the stage for a stage-spike. More often than not, I find them taking damage and getting sent upwards, making it even easier for them to recover back on stage.

Feel like I'm drastically running out of options. Eruption is my favorite method as it's the safest.

It's fine to want to play conservatively in edgeguarding. Ike prefers it on stage if he can be and Eruption is a very powerful tool. Edgeguarding is always going to be high risk high reward and it's up to you whether or not it's worth it.

That said I took a look at your most recent videos and it's pretty obvious that you haven't taken Ike into training mode to learn his ranges yet. Eruption at the ledge is a big no no and something you really don't have to do.

After you do that your edge game (and overall game) should improve drastically.

I'm not very confident in my offstage game due to how gimpable Ike is himself - I only go for the offstage finisher when I think my opponent doesn't expect it. For example, I almost always go for the Eruption edgeguard instead, and when I do go offstage I tend to make predictable single jumps off with one attack at some point, then use my double jump back and Aether to get back when I miss. But the latter's purpose isn't really to edgeguard them, unless they're the sort to make very obvious recoveries like double jumping the instant they're Fthrow or Dthrown off the stage - it's so I can suddenly go for a more daring move when the time is right and hopefully it catches them off guard.

This isn't a bad strategy at all, but keep in mind the most important part here for you is [my opponent doesn't expect it]. This can be forced in a lot of situations with reads which become deadly in the hands of a character like Ike.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What exactly am I looking to do in Training? Or the lab, rather.

 

[Arrei]

The thing about using Eruption at the very edge though, is that Ragnell's hitbox is apparently out for a few frames more than the blast's is, so as long as your opponent's recovery doesn't have a rising hitbox attached to it like Dolphin Slash or Super Jump Punch, it doesn't really hurt to stand at the edge and get those few extra frames of leeway to catch the ledge snap, does it?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

The thing about using Eruption at the very edge though, is that Ragnell's hitbox is apparently out for a few frames more than the blast's is, so as long as your opponent's recovery doesn't have a rising hitbox attached to it like Dolphin Slash or Super Jump Punch, it doesn't really hurt to stand at the edge and get those few extra frames of leeway to catch the ledge snap, does it?

True. I started doing that in Training.

What about the ranges of each attack? I tried Dtilt, Bair, Fair, and Nair at max range against a Captain Falcon in Training to learn the spacing. Did a couple of backflip Fairs and Bairs as well. What else should I take a look at?

It is hard, admittedly, when I'm going for an approach on someone and they see it coming. I get too close with Fair/Nair by accident and they get a free shieldgrab.

 

[⑨ball]

@ Rango the Mercenary
Utilt, Ftilt, jab, grab, dash grab, and pivot grab as well. Ike gets a lot of mileage out of his grabs so don't be afraid to abuse them. Or rather, abuse them at any chance you get. Pivot Ftilt is also a really good spacing tool. Utilt is a fantastic kill move. Smashes should be known as well, but in general they're reserved for hard reads and punishes. You shouldn't be throwing them out in hopes that they'll hit or as "finishers".

The next thing to look for once you feel like you've got a good eye on your ranges is how long they take to start up and how long they last. If you haven't noticed it already the active time on these moves is important to recognize, because this is the corner stone of controlling space for Ike. The area where Ike can safely place a hitbox is [his space]. This doesn't always have to be directed at opponents either. While it's certainly good to know how far away you can hit your opponent(making it that much harder to punish you) it's also good just to know how much space it controls in the neutral.

Hitboxes can be placed between Ike and an opponent to discourage approaches, control the pace of the match, limit an opponent's options, or condition them into a punishable pattern of thinking. However, because Ike has so much range, this will often mean that opponents attempting to approach will get hit by these options while Ike remains safe if properly spaced.

This type of knowledge is what puts an end to [insert character here] being able to "punish your everything". It also lets you do something that's hardly talked about in smash bros, probably because it's assumed due to a lot of us being veterans as far back as 64: Watch your opponent. When you know your character, you don't have to look at them anymore. You already know what you're going to do so you can focus your attention on your opponent. This is a huge advantage for a player that's looking at their own character like newer players tend to do, because it will boost your reaction time and choice considerably.

The thing about using Eruption at the very edge though, is that Ragnell's hitbox is apparently out for a few frames more than the blast's is, so as long as your opponent's recovery doesn't have a rising hitbox attached to it like Dolphin Slash or Super Jump Punch, it doesn't really hurt to stand at the edge and get those few extra frames of leeway to catch the ledge snap, does it?

This is true, and is shaping up to be a very powerful option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpax41DC_Y

However, it is still a risk/reward option. Having it available as a choice is never a bad thing, but what if you don't think that risk is worth it? What if you're playing a fragile speedster like Fox or Little Mac and you'd rather retain your stage control over chancing a miss on those active frames and getting punished for it? This is where your distanced Eruption comes in. It's more than fine if a player wants to do that, but it should be an option weighed against other good ones he has so that he can always make the decision that feels best to him.

 

[Blitzus]

The more intricate answers have more merit than mine, but in general,
If they're recovering Low, Dair of Eruption will do you well.

If they're recovering high, a Fair or more effectively Bair is your friend.

If they're recovering onto the stage, but aren't necessarily "high", you can hit them with whatever you want, and Eruption's range is kinda absurd.

What I tend to try, personally, however, is if they're low to mid recovering, just eruption in general.
High recovery, I'll Bair them.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

@ Rango the Mercenary
Utilt, Ftilt, jab, grab, dash grab, and pivot grab as well. Ike gets a lot of mileage out of his grabs so don't be afraid to abuse them. Or rather, abuse them at any chance you get. Pivot Ftilt is also a really good spacing tool. Utilt is a fantastic kill move. Smashes should be known as well, but in general they're reserved for hard reads and punishes. You shouldn't be throwing them out in hopes that they'll hit or as "finishers".

The next thing to look for once you feel like you've got a good eye on your ranges is how long they take to start up and how long they last. If you haven't noticed it already the active time on these moves is important to recognize, because this is the corner stone of controlling space for Ike. The area where Ike can safely place a hitbox is [his space]. This doesn't always have to be directed at opponents either. While it's certainly good to know how far away you can hit your opponent(making it that much harder to punish you) it's also good just to know how much space it controls in the neutral.

Hitboxes can be placed between Ike and an opponent to discourage approaches, control the pace of the match, limit an opponent's options, or condition them into a punishable pattern of thinking. However, because Ike has so much range, this will often mean that opponents attempting to approach will get hit by these options while Ike remains safe if properly spaced.

This type of knowledge is what puts an end to [insert character here] being able to "punish your everything". It also lets you do something that's hardly talked about in smash bros, probably because it's assumed due to a lot of us being veterans as far back as 64: Watch your opponent. When you know your character, you don't have to look at them anymore. You already know what you're going to do so you can focus your attention on your opponent. This is a huge advantage for a player that's looking at their own character like newer players tend to do, because it will boost your reaction time and choice considerably.



This is true, and is shaping up to be a very powerful option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpax41DC_Y

However, it is still a risk/reward option. Having it available as a choice is never a bad thing, but what if you don't think that risk is worth it? What if you're playing a fragile speedster like Fox or Little Mac and you'd rather retain your stage control over chancing a miss on those active frames and getting punished for it? This is where your distanced Eruption comes in. It's more than fine if a player wants to do that, but it should be an option weighed against other good ones he has so that he can always make the decision that feels best to him.

You really helped me. The hitboxes and reading my opponent strategies are something I utilized heavily in Mortal Kombat. I was a Sub-Zero main and I knew to gauge every one of my opponent's attack angles and when I needed to block while also focusing my vision on him and not myself. It took a while to get to that level here, but I really appreciate you knocking it back into my skull.

 

[⑨ball]

You helped yourself, man. It's easy to type some letters, or hand out suggestions based on your own experience. It takes actual effort to weigh them against what you know and actually practice or learn/relearn what you need to. That's something you should be proud of and keep in mind as you continue to level up as a player.

Also Sub-Zero is super fun to play like Ike so you can congratulate yourself on good taste in characters too.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Okay, so new problem. When I'm not chasing someone off the stage or charging Eruption, then what should I do?

-Getting back on from the ledge normally (hitting right or left)
-Rolling back on stage from the ledge
-Jumping back on stage from the ledge
-Attacking back on stage from the ledge.

Nair seems to work well against people rolling, but attackers seem to have high hitboxes that hit me in the air. And for some reason, despite the active frames of Nair, people who use the first option tend to go right through Nair, leaving me punishable instead.

 

[Arrei]

What I tend to do if I haven't gathered enough info about my opponent's habits to make a hard read is run right up to the edge and shield, to bait an action out and punish a get-up attack if they go for it. After a few rounds of this, I'll try to chase jumpers with an Uair since they'll often try to airdodge as they jump, read rollers with an Ftilt or Usmash if I'm trying to get the kill, and try to jab or grab normal and attacking get-ups.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What about people who are landing back on-stage from a DThrow, UThrow, or other attack that launches them upwards? Unless you're trying to juggle with aerials, what's the best way to beat someone trying to land on the ground and not going for the edge?