If Brawl's newcomers were in Melee, where would they be on the Tier list?

[metaXzero]

Simple question. If Brawl's newcomers were placed in Melee, where do you see them on the Tier List. A detailed answer would be nice. Make an adapted tier list if you want. Just want to hear other people's opinions.

And Wolf can JC his shine like Fox/Falco.

Apologies if similar thread exist.

Discuss?

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

With l canceling and wavedashing? Meta Knight would be top tier, Fox would still be #1 in the game, Sonic would be top tier.

Hard to say because hitstun would be different and make things that aren't possible, possible.

 

[Zankoku]

It really begs the question, if characters from Brawl were moved into Melee, would they gain L-Canceling and more hitstun? Hitstun is character and attack specific, and though L-Canceling is mostly universal, there could be the odd case of things like G&W's aerials.

 

[metaXzero]

To answer the question, yes. This assumes that L-canceling, increased hitstun, and other Melee things are applied. Again, I just want to hear other people's thoughts.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Is it also assuming all the other melee physics things (like keeping running momentum when jumping from a dash)? Sonic would basically be an extremely buffed Captain Falcon, with great combo ability, great edgeguarding, and insane recovery. Easily top tier.

Metaknight is also another good contender.

I think Snake would move down a lot. Faster fall speed hurts snake's recovery (no C-4 for you) and more hitstun means that he'll just eat combos so much. The same would apply to DDD.

 

[Zankoku]

Diddy would be banned. Melee, having no code for tripping, would immediately crash whenever someone gets hit by Diddy's bananas.

 

[~rh]

Sonic would be hella ****ing hard to catch with wd'ing and l canceling.

 

[smashbro29]

sonic would be VERY fast

 

[=ArtH=]

Snake...lol...

 

[metaXzero]

Is it also assuming all the other melee physics things (like keeping running momentum when jumping from a dash)?

Yes it does. Pretty much Melee's engine on Brawl's newcomers.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Assuming Melee like physics (where shields are laggier, and certain moves will combo because of lcancelling and wavedashing) Fox would still be #1. No new Brawl character has anything that I see being along the lines of waveshining or jump cancel shine, even with new physics.

Metaknight would be top tier, right below Falco. Good recovery combined with combos.
Wolf and Zero Suit Samus would be somewhere in the upper tiers too, because of their speed.
Diddy would be between Peach and Falcon. He'd be able to combo quite well, but not quite as well as the characters above him.
Snake would be close to Samus's place. Good projectiles, good range, not quite enough to put him much higher.
Sonic would be somewhere around Doc on the tier list. No priority or kill moves hurts, but his moves would combo nicely and he'd have a really good dash dance.
Olimar would be around the same place, upper-mid tier. Range and priority, with a few stupid looking combos (with more hitstun, less landing lag, and higher fall speeds, he'd juggle like crazy). Melee Sheik and Falco would destroy him though, because their projectiles would probably stop pikmin pulls like they stop turnips.
Lucario would be around where Ganon is in Melee. He seems like he'd be more playable than Melee Mewtwo.
Lucas would be mid tier somewhere. He'd have some of the same weaknesses as Ness in certain matchups, but he'd be playable. He'd probably also DJC in melee.
ROB, Dedede, Wario would be low tier, around DK. With Melee physics, they'll be too slow compared to the rest of the cast.
Pokemon Trainer would be bottom tier, the only pokemon I see being good with Melee physics is Squirtle. But you'll have to change to one of the worse Pokemon at some point in the match...

 

[SonicLucario]

Sonic=God Tier
:D
He'd probably be high though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I disagree with you Rapid assassin with you're placement of Sonic and Snake. Sonic would be much higher, since he's got a very good recovery even with the faster fall speed, and he's already really good at edgeguarding with his high priority fair. Increased hitstun means he'd actually be able to combo, and L-canceling would make fair to f-smash a legitamate combo. His up B would be even better for both comboing and gimping. All in all, Sonic would've been a beast in the melee engine.

Snake on the other hand, takes a big nerf from the melee engine. Faster fall speed means no auto cancels, and even L-canceled aerials would be slow for him. His weight would also hurt him much more than help, as he'd be one of the easiest characters to combo in the game. Not to mention that he still wouldn't be able to combo himself since his moves are still powerfull. I'd put him just under Gannondorf IMO.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Sonic's tech chasing game would be unmatched.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

Sonic would own if you were actually good... Most of us would not be able to use him.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Most melee players actually had decent techskill. The level of the average tournament player was more than enough to handle all the techskill nessecary for Sonic.

 

[MarKO X]

Feel free to modify this as you wish.
With this, I'm assuming that all vets are in their Melee form.
Red shows a Brawl character.

-Top-
Fox
Falco
Sonic - lower than Fox and Falco because of his lack of priority, even if his combos would be godly.

-High-
Zamus - with added hitstun, her dsmash might be a broken infinite, or close to it. She might even be top tier.
Sheik
Marth
Peach

-Mid-
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
DDD - a heavyweight with excellent recovery would be a Melee dream. add chaingrabbing, and I think I picked a perfect spot for him on this list.
MetaKnight - his combos would be even better, but if he's from Dreamland on Melee's engine, he's easy to eliminate as well, and he might not even be that strong...
Pit - still would have angel recovery, but being floaty usually means easy eliminations in Melee. He'd still have high priority and probably nice combos.
Samus
Diddy Kong - great combo potential, and if bananas still make you trip... questionable recovery though.
Dr. Mario
Jiggly Puff
ROB - I think he'd be average in Melee. A spike, nice recovery, but I don't play with ROB enough to know any combo potential, so he might be spotted higher than this.
Mario
Toon Link - if you wanna make a difference between Young Link and Toon Link, I think TL would be better because he has a better sword, thus making him stronger.
Ganondorf
Wolf - I dunno, this just feels like the right spot for him in this list.
Ike - he could possibly kill you at 50% if he was in Melee. That'll keep him from being low-tier.

-Low-
Link
Luigi
Wario - my guess is that he'd be a heavier version of Luigi in this game... not that effective, and maybe even less so.
DK
Roy
Olimar - much, much too easy to edgeguard since he relies on his Pikmin hook.
Y. Link
Snake - I put him down here because I have NO IDEA how to fight with Snake yet. he's an excellent character in Brawl, but I have yet to figure out why and how.
Pikachu

-Bottom-
Lucas - he'd be better than Ness (I think?) but not by much.
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Lucario - counter gives him a sole advantage over Mewtwo, but if he still has that Aura ability where he gets stronger when he's hurt, he won't last long in Melee.
Mewtwo


Pokemon Trainer would not be in this game because Charizard, Blastoise, and Venasuar come out of Pokeballs.
Lucario technically wouldn't be in this game either, but I put him in the list just for the hell of it.


One thing that I didn't take into account was WDing, because I hardly WDed in Melee. L-cancelling was a factor by default, as I L-cancelled in Melee before I knew it was called L-cancelling, so I definitely took that into account. Have fun with this.

 

[metaXzero]

Nice tier list MarCO X. My only disagreements are towards Lucario, Wolf, Wario, and Olimar.

Lucario is much better than Mewtwo, and his combos would be more effective in Melee. probably mid tier at least.

Wolf I assume would JC his shine in Melee. With that, WD would greatly boost his game since would probably also be able to Waveshine like Fox. High Tier at least.

Wario is more like Jigglypuff with two jumps then Luigi. Low-mid maybe.

And Olimar despite his easily edgegurded recovery, would be high mid at best (maybe). Increased hitstun would mean more combos and possible 0-death chains. His grabs alone might be broken.

Of course, this is my opinion. Tell me if I said something wrong.

 

[SiegKnight]

makes want melee with brawl characters ;_;

 

[metaXzero]

makes want melee with brawl characters ;_;

It really does. But Nintendo would never do it

 

[Empy]

You guys are putting Sonic too high, Fox and Falco have better killing moves and Sheik would probably still be better at making combo's then Sonic. Sonic just doesn't kill any character below 350%, probably not even Pichu, so to speak.

 

[metaXzero]

^^Sonic doesn't kill? I thought MK was the one with the killing problem...

 

[Dark Sonic]

You guys are putting Sonic too high, Fox and Falco have better killing moves and Sheik would probably still be better at making combo's then Sonic. Sonic just doesn't kill any character below 350%, probably not even Pichu, so to speak.

Ever heard of edgeguarding? Did you realize that Sonic actually has a very powerful foward smash and down smash, and the only problem is that you can't combo into them in brawl. Well, now you can, and it's essentially the same thing as comboing into shiek's fair. Sonic also has a great recovery, would be one of the only characters in the game who could act after his up B, and would have the best dash dance in the game (that's right, better than Captain Falcon's).

 

[MarKO X]

You guys are putting Sonic too high, Fox and Falco have better killing moves and Sheik would probably still be better at making combo's then Sonic. Sonic just doesn't kill any character below 350%, probably not even Pichu, so to speak.

Failed statement. On Melee's physics, his fsmash and dsmash would kill because you'd have to work to recover. Sonic kills easily when his opponent is at 150%, so I'm sure that Sonic can kill at 105% in this game, and that's not even counting his bair, which is vicious. And maybe Shiek would be better at making combos (maybe not, since Sonic does have a few spindash to aerial combos that are actual combos in Brawl when done right in), but Sonic would be the FASTEST character, and you can't combo what you can't catch, can you?

Ever heard of edgeguarding? Did you realize that Sonic actually has a very powerful foward smash and down smash, and the only problem is that you can't combo into them in brawl. Well, now you can, and it's essentially the same thing as comboing into shiek's fair. Sonic also has a great recovery, would be one of the only characters in the game who could act after his up B, and would have the best dash dance in the game (that's right, better than Captain Falcon's).

Sonic's edgeguard game would be broken as ****. Dropping springs on opponents and homing attack gimping would be much, much more effective since you can only air dodge once in Melee. And with his speed, I would predict a spindash > fair infinite.

As a matter of fact, there's a thread about modifying Brawl to play like Melee: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4408362#post4408362

 

[Tyr_03]

Lucas would be waaaaaay better than Ness. like ridiculously so. Assuming his PK Thunder worked similarly to how it works in Brawl he would be hands down the best edgeguarder in the game. His DJC Uair could juggle just like Melee Ness's too which would help a lot. Not to mention (presumably) his snake would act like other tether recoveries in Melee making his recovery actually decent since you wouldn't always be reliant on PKT2. Also Lucas's PKT2 is waaaay longer than Ness's for much longer recovery (even though it'd still be really hard to sweetspot like it is with Ness.) Then add on the range of his forward and up tilts for ground combat, his so easy to reflect with bat, and his multiple hitting huge hitbox down smash that would make it nearly impossible for characters to sweetspot. I honestly could see him even making high tier if these things really stayed the same for the Melee engine.

I can see Snake getting chaingrabbed by like every character with his size and falling speed. That alone might be enough to keep him from doing well with the Melee engine.

 

[metaXzero]

Poor Snake. It appears he would suffer the most from Melee's engine. That actually reminds me of that rumor about Hideo Kojima wanting Snake for Melee originally......

 

[Spire]

Regarding Snake though, if he was in Melee, I think they may probably have designed him differently. However, this does apply to all the new characters in that they would not be designed for Brawl's engine, but for Melee's.

 

[metaXzero]

Regarding Snake though, if he was in Melee, I think they may probably have designed him differently. However, this does apply to all the new characters in that they would not be designed for Brawl's engine, but for Melee's.

That is true. But I made this topic assuming that Brawl's newcomers were put in Melee as they are with Melee's engine effecting them (No matter how broken or garbage like some of them may turn out).

 

[Pyr0]

Wario with L canceled aerials and wavedash for supreme spacing... beyond upper tier.

 

[Exia 00]

not much would have changed for lucas accept NO B-STICK!
what sick minded person could think of such a cruel thread !

 

[-Ran]

Snake with L-canceled + wave dashing Neutral Air would just be flat out beastly.

 

[Banjodorf]

Diddy would be banned. Melee, having no code for tripping, would immediately crash whenever someone gets hit by Diddy's bananas.

lol

Spoiler

10diddykongswithbananas

 

[metaXzero]

I just realized only one person made an adapted Tier list...

 

[Naybewon]

This theory can be somewhat tested and simulated in Heavy Gravity mode Brawl. Obviously many Melee-related things aren't in there but at least you could get a slightly more accurate feel.

 

[Andromeda]

The poor old penguinking would be sooo low.

 

[metaXzero]

This theory can be somewhat tested and simulated in Heavy Gravity mode Brawl. Obviously many Melee-related things aren't in there but at least you could get a slightly more accurate feel.

Somewhat. But since some of Melee's veterans (except Marth) were changed significantely coming into Brawl (Fox can't waveshine (dash-shining isn't as good) or do a fast multi-shine. Captain Falcon's combos remain neutered. L-canceling is still gone. etc.) you still couldn't test them against Melee's finest.

Though you do get a slight grasp of how they control in Melee (sans directional air-dodging and L-canceling of course).

 

[Prax]

Metaknight would be at least high tier. He already has some good combos, and with the increased hitstun and gravity, he would have changrabs too. He would be right below fox and falco in my opinion, if only because he has no projectile.

 

[Naybewon]

Somewhat. But since some of Melee's veterans (except Marth) were changed significantely coming into Brawl (Fox can't waveshine (dash-shining isn't as good) or do a fast multi-shine. Captain Falcon's combos remain neutered. L-canceling is still gone. etc.) you still couldn't test them against Melee's finest.

Though you do get a slight grasp of how they control in Melee (sans directional air-dodging and L-canceling of course).

Again, that's why my post said "somewhat"

 

[metaXzero]

Again, that's why my post said "somewhat"

I'm Sorry. I overlooked your "somewhat". lol

 

[Jaxx Raxor]

Well I'm not an expert player so I'm exactly sure how the melee physics would affect the brawl newcomers but I think that Sonic would definitly be top tier, probably number 4 after Fox, Falco and Shiek as Melee tends to favor fast and agile characters. Metaknight would probably be number 5 because of his quick attacks and powerful down smash and up b.

I do agree that heavier characters like R.O.B. and DDD would be among the worst characters, in fact I think that R.O.B. would be the 2nd worst character, only better than Mewtwo because of his large size and floatness.

As for Snake, he would probably be low to mid mid-tier. The quick top tier charcters would shred him but his mines could be useful against the slower characters in midtier and bottom tier.