Imperfect Control

[errtu]

My whole regular group noticed this very quickly upon playing Brawl. Things like accidentally doing 3-4 jumps with MetaKnight if you don't turn off up-jumping, or rolling accidentally, or turning around randomly. On the other hand, I also noticed that the buffer system seemed to help early on with my controller's problem from Melee, which is that it tends to be sensitive to left inputs and doesn't respond well to tapping right (if you want to reverse a B move in the air, for instance), but that's just a coincidental benefit, obviously.

Mostly, yes, I think the few frames you might possibly be able to save with this buffer system aren't worth the chances of accidentally rolling or turning around. But, then, the game's bad all around, and this is really among the least of its problems.

yeah another guy who cant adapt... oh well. u dont like it? no one is making u play it man. play street fighter 4 then, that one looks cool too

 

[WastingPenguins]

Why are there still so many people who think that tripping is the result of a certain playstyle or punishment for certain actions (i.e. trying to dash dance)? Tripping is 100% random and has nothing to do with the way you're playing. You can trip when doing a smash attack. You can trip IMMEDIATELY when a match begins-- literally the first time you press forward on the control stick. Sorry, folks, it's totally random. If your friend seems to trip more often than you, and in more punishable situations, it's just bad luck. Period.

Anyway, the OP isn't complaining that the control system is unlike Melee. He's complaining that it feels generally loose in a way that is completely independent of other games. Haven't you guys ever read a game review before? It's perfectly legit to be critical of a game's control scheme. If I played the next Mario game and the controls felt unresponsive and unintuitive, I might complain about it. Not because it's different than a previous Mario game-- because, forgetting all other games, the controls just do not feel good.

I have no comment on the Brawl controls because I haven't played the game, but seriously people. Think before you post.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, this was really frustrating when I played because at the time it seemed like at times I was randomly turning around among other things, which left me with a feeling of "sloppiness" with the controls that I got called on as making up johns and imagining it since it seemed to be affecting me a lot more than others.

I thought perhaps it was my controller being overly sensitive for the game somehow and I was inputting things without realizing, but after later hearing about the buffering it all made sense and was more than likely from me trying to adjust positioning before landing/preemptively DIing/etc and the game was buffering those as inputs for later. =/

 

[errtu]

Why are there still so many people who think that tripping is the result of a certain playstyle or punishment for certain actions (i.e. trying to dash dance)? Tripping is 100% random and has nothing to do with the way you're playing. You can trip when doing a smash attack. You can trip IMMEDIATELY when a match begins-- literally the first time you press forward on the control stick. Sorry, folks, it's totally random. If your friend seems to trip more often than you, and in more punishable situations, it's just bad luck. Period.

Anyway, the OP isn't complaining that the control system is unlike Melee. He's complaining that it feels generally loose in a way that is completely independent of other games. Haven't you guys ever read a game review before? It's perfectly legit to be critical of a game's control scheme. If I played the next Mario game and the controls felt unresponsive and unintuitive, I might complain about it. Not because it's different than a previous Mario game-- because, forgetting all other games, the controls just do not feel good.

I have no comment on the Brawl controls because I haven't played the game, but seriously people. Think before you post.

well u should also think before u post. where is the proof for ur claims? tripping after immediately starting the match? proof please.

edit. im not saying u are incorrect. just prove it cause i have never seen this tripping after the go!

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^I've seen videos where it happens.

I surprisingly see where the OP is coming from, but Card is the winner here. Anyone trying to play a technical game gets *****. Brawl was fine tuned to be more about grace and thought, which means slow characters no longer get ***** by fast ones.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

thusly the problems with reviews, they are subjective.

if someone has the right to complain, people have the right to voice their disagreements


i dont think tripping is entirely random, but i supose there is no way of prooving otherwise as of now.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

^I've seen videos where it happens.

I surprisingly see where the OP is coming from, but Card is the winner here. Anyone trying to play a technical game gets *****. Brawl was fine tuned to be more about grace and thought, which means slow characters no longer get ***** by fast ones.

technical =/= fast

edit: ive personally never been punished for tripping. sorry for double post.

 

[fr0st2k]

Why are there still so many people who think that tripping is the result of a certain playstyle or punishment for certain actions (i.e. trying to dash dance)? Tripping is 100% random and has nothing to do with the way you're playing. You can trip when doing a smash attack. You can trip IMMEDIATELY when a match begins-- literally the first time you press forward on the control stick. Sorry, folks, it's totally random. If your friend seems to trip more often than you, and in more punishable situations, it's just bad luck. Period.

Anyway, the OP isn't complaining that the control system is unlike Melee. He's complaining that it feels generally loose in a way that is completely independent of other games. Haven't you guys ever read a game review before? It's perfectly legit to be critical of a game's control scheme. If I played the next Mario game and the controls felt unresponsive and unintuitive, I might complain about it. Not because it's different than a previous Mario game-- because, forgetting all other games, the controls just do not feel good.

I have no comment on the Brawl controls because I haven't played the game, but seriously people. Think before you post.

and what were saying is that the control scheme is fine, UNLESS, you played melee a lot and were expecting something extremely similar to its controls.

dont you understand that?

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^Fast characters had more to benefit from techniques like wavedashing and such than slow characters like this.

How many characters who have a slow-and-powerful playstyle like Bowser and Ganon are high on the general tier list? The various techniques that increase speed did not help them as nearly as much as it did faster characters--it widened that gap IMO.

 

[WastingPenguins]

well u should also think before u post. where is the proof for ur claims? tripping after immediately starting the match? proof please.

edit. im not saying u are incorrect. just prove it cause i have never seen this tripping after the go!

There is video proof out there. I don't know where it is, but it was discussed at length in another thread. Sorry if you don't believe without seeing for yourself, I'm not going to go find it, but I'm not making it up.Tripping is random. It can happen at ANY time that you are pressing forward on the control stick, no matter what action you are doing. Smashing, dashing, running, tilts, anything.

Anyway, all this talk about "graceful" play is vague and meaningless. A lot of the people around here like to make nebulous generalizations about "technical" play. "Technical players will get *****"-- what does this mean? That players with the best control over their characters actions will do especially poorly? How would you possibly come to this conclusion? If anything, the buffering system encourages MORE technical understanding of the controls. If you don't understand how it works and compensate, you wind up making sloppy, unintended movements-- you guys call that "graceful"?

 

[WastingPenguins]

^Fast characters had more to benefit from techniques like wavedashing and such than slow characters like this.

How many characters who have a slow-and-powerful playstyle like Bowser and Ganon are high on the general tier list? The various techniques that increase speed did not help them as nearly as much as it did faster characters--it widened that gap IMO.

This is exactly the opposite of the truth. In Melee, slow characters need l-canceling to be competitive far, FAR more than fast characters. Ever heard of "diminishing returns"? The faster you are, the less you benefit from getting a little faster.

Think about it like this: WITHOUT lag-canceling, a hypothetical fast character's (Fox) dair has .2 seconds of lag. A hypothetical slow character's (Ganon) dair has 1 full second of lag.

WITH lag canceling, Fox's dair now has .1 seconds of lag instead of .2. The difference between .2 and .1 is so small you probably won't even notice. Ganon's dair, on the other hand, now has .5 seconds of lag instead of 1 full second. The difference there is five times as big. In this example, l-canceling helps Ganon FIVE TIMES AS MUCH as it helped Fox.

I made up the lag times obviously but the principle is what matters.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

jack 5, kuma, potemkin(last version of GG), hugo, alex, zangeif. they are all solid, great characters, and slow.

no, they dont have the freedoms of the faster characters, but they can do things to compensate, and some are even better than quicker characters. (pot for example)

also: nice link in your sig, sonics fmash, bair and dsmash are pretty good ko moves. (bair especially, since its easy to land off stage with a rather large hitbox)

 

[errtu]

There is video proof out there. I don't know where it is, but it was discussed at length in another thread. Sorry if you don't believe without seeing for yourself, I'm not going to go find it, but I'm not making it up.Tripping is random. It can happen at ANY time that you are pressing forward on the control stick, no matter what action you are doing. Smashing, dashing, running, tilts, anything.

Anyway, all this talk about "graceful" play is vague and meaningless. A lot of the people around here like to make nebulous generalizations about "technical" play. "Technical players will get *****"-- what does this mean? That players with the best control over their characters actions will do especially poorly? How would you possibly come to this conclusion? If anything, the buffering system encourages MORE technical understanding of the controls. If you don't understand how it works and compensate, you wind up making sloppy, unintended movements-- you guys call that "graceful"?

well there is no reason for me to believe you just on your word. if i made a similiar claim, you would ask for the same. but yeah, whatever man

well maybe YOU need a more in depth understanding of the game cause it is just not coming to ya intuitively

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

wasting penguins: ive never tripped trying to do a fsmash, a ftitl, or randomly while running. tripping only seems to happen when you start a dash.

 

[fr0st2k]

jack 5, kuma, potemkin(last version of GG), hugo, alex, zangeif. they are all solid, great characters, and slow.

no, they dont have the freedoms of the faster characters, but they can do things to compensate, and some are even better than quicker characters. (pot for example)

also: nice link in your sig, sonics fmash, bair and dsmash are pretty good ko moves. (bair especially, since its easy to land off stage with a rather large hitbox)

my chipp would totally rock your pot

 

[WastingPenguins]

Guys-- I'm not making this stuff up. There was a tripping thread in which several people performed EXHAUSTIVE analytical testing and posted their findings (i.e. they performed various actions, counted every press of the control stick and converted their findings into statistics.) This included hard video evidence of things like tripping while f-tilting, smashing, and everything else I said. The conclusion was that tripping can randomly happen ANY time you press forward on the control stick. I'm not going to provide examples because 1. the thread was massive, 2. the thread isn't active anymore as far as I know and I don't know what it was called to even find it, and 3. I'm not making any of this up so I don't care if a few random people think I'm lying for some reason.

 

[SynikaL]

^I've seen videos where it happens.

I surprisingly see where the OP is coming from, but Card is the winner here. Anyone trying to play a technical game gets *****. Brawl was fine tuned to be more about grace and thought, which means slow characters no longer get ***** by fast ones.

Please get out of here with that garbage. You've been pushing that "Brawl is for the less technically inclined/more mindgame oriented crowd" nonsense agenda for awhile now, and it's ridiculous. The more you imply Melee was less mindgame oriented because it was technical, the more you make yourself look like a fool. This is not a Brawl vs. Melee topic. STOP.


Thanks to Blue Shell, Card, M3D, Wasting Penguin and others for giving insightful responses. I don't have time to respond to everything proper.


-SynikaL
(and yes, the title is a homage to the vid -- and has somewhat of a double meaning to it)

 

[Ryuker]

Just to clarify. I tripped at the start of a match and it's probably that vid that there talking about. I still can't get why sakurai put this in there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Z9RcW-nzM

Thats the vid.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Anyway, all this talk about "graceful" play is vague and meaningless. A lot of the people around here like to make nebulous generalizations about "technical" play. "Technical players will get *****"-- what does this mean? That players with the best control over their characters actions will do especially poorly? How would you possibly come to this conclusion? If anything, the buffering system encourages MORE technical understanding of the controls. If you don't understand how it works and compensate, you wind up making sloppy, unintended movements-- you guys call that "graceful"?

By technicality, we're talking about speed of input compared to the timing of movement, so I guess technicality is the wrong word to use here. Super Fast Buttons doesn't help anymore, which is what Card is saying. You noticed how he said he had more control because the slow speed and buffering made timing easier, while his friend, who chained together technical moves, got owned and frustrated quickly? That's what we mean by grace vs. technicality.

This is exactly the opposite of the truth. In Melee, slow characters need l-canceling to be competitive far, FAR more than fast characters. Ever heard of "diminishing returns"? The faster you are, the less you benefit from getting a little faster.

Think about it like this: WITHOUT lag-canceling, a hypothetical fast character's (Fox) dair has .2 seconds of lag. A hypothetical slow character's (Ganon) dair has 1 full second of lag.

WITH lag canceling, Fox's dair now has .1 seconds of lag instead of .2. The difference between .2 and .1 is so small you probably won't even notice. Ganon's dair, on the other hand, now has .5 seconds of lag instead of 1 full second. The difference there is five times as big. In this example, l-canceling helps Ganon FIVE TIMES AS MUCH as it helped Fox.

Ick, I was thinking about it wrong. You win this one. Still, didn't help them a lick against fast characters. The fast characters were STILL faster even when the slow guys had reduction of lag, even if the fast characters DIDN'T cancel their lag. In terms of heavyweights being a bit more contendable in Brawl, I'd probably say super armor and the overall slower pace allows them to predict better. That, and fast characters have less kill moves compared to a slower one (Ike can kill with just about anything, Sonic has about two good killing moves total).

Even I, who walks the middle road between competitive and casual, thinks that Tripping sucks massive monkey **** and one of Brawl's few bad points.

 

[SynikaL]

You noticed how he said he had more control because the slow speed and buffering made timing easier, while his friend, who chained together technical moves, got owned and frustrated quickly? That's what we mean by grace vs. technicality.

He never explicitly stated that -- you're just pulling these inferences out of your azz to push your abstract and absolutely ******** agenda. Don't refer to Card's posts to pillar you position, because you're hurting the integrity of his posts by doing it.


-Syn

 

[SynikaL]

*Nothing to see here*


-Syn

 

[Magus420]

I would think that the addition of needing to 'un-buffer' in order to maintain control over certain actions would also benefit the more technical players in that regard a bit too in the long run though.

 

[Zek]

Technically tripping isn't completely random, it's based on how often you dash. Somebody who does a lot of gratuitous dashing, dashdancing, etc will trip more often. Everybody will trip sometimes though.

 

[SynikaL]

I'd just like to point out that the original post presents a few situations where the UBS's will becomes unavoidable.


-Kye

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

So my observation that Brawl benefiting pacing of moves over speed is a "******** agenda". I'm not even sure what you pulled out of card's post, but that's what he implied, and I agree with it. It does not necessarily need to be explicitly said. Wow, way to be a complete *******.

 

[Magus420]

When spacing/fastfalling aerials before landing, can you override those inputs during the air to ground landlag?

 

[Seison]

Some of you need to start listening to WastingPenguins. He knows what he's talking about. take this post for example:

Why are there still so many people who think that tripping is the result of a certain playstyle or punishment for certain actions (i.e. trying to dash dance)? Tripping is 100% random and has nothing to do with the way you're playing. You can trip when doing a smash attack. You can trip IMMEDIATELY when a match begins-- literally the first time you press forward on the control stick. Sorry, folks, it's totally random. If your friend seems to trip more often than you, and in more punishable situations, it's just bad luck. Period.

Anyway, the OP isn't complaining that the control system is unlike Melee. He's complaining that it feels generally loose in a way that is completely independent of other games. Haven't you guys ever read a game review before? It's perfectly legit to be critical of a game's control scheme. If I played the next Mario game and the controls felt unresponsive and unintuitive, I might complain about it. Not because it's different than a previous Mario game-- because, forgetting all other games, the controls just do not feel good.

I have no comment on the Brawl controls because I haven't played the game, but seriously people. Think before you post.

I remember the thread he's talking about, wherein someone (or some people) conducted "exhaustive" research on the probability of tripping, and in what kinds of cases it can happen.

ALSO, while everyone doesn't have to agree with the OP, his statements should not be written off like he's complaining that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0. HE KNOWS THIS. Like Penguin said, he is allowed to complain about the controls in Brawl as an independent game in and of itself. I doubt that I, personally, will be dissatisfied with Brawl's controls; I love it too much on principle to hate it but that doesn't change the fact that the OP is allowed to complain, and that he's not saying, "this doesn't play like melee--it sucks"

 

[hippochinfat!!]

No one else is having these problems he's lying to feel important or because he's a melee elitist.

 

[WastingPenguins]

ALSO, while everyone doesn't have to agree with the OP, his statements should not be written off like he's complaining that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0. HE KNOWS THIS. Like Penguin said, he is allowed to complain about the controls in Brawl as an independent game in and of itself. I doubt that I, personally, will be dissatisfied with Brawl's controls; I love it too much on principle to hate it but that doesn't change the fact that the OP is allowed to complain, and that he's not saying, "this doesn't play like melee--it sucks"

Yeah. Does anyone remember the game Gunvalkyrie for Xbox? Anyway, it was an almost-awesome game that had a famously cumbersome, universally criticized control scheme. No one was mad that the game's controls were new or unique-- they were mad because the controls were unwieldy.

If a game has tight controls, a skilled player should be able to make his character do what he intends most of the time. If, however, there is a game where a skilled player is frequently unable to get his character to do what he wants, and if there are situations where the game literally does not allow that player to control his character how he wants... well these are not the hallmarks of a "tight" control scheme and this is essentially what the OP is complaining about.

Again, I can't comment on the merits of Brawl's controls because I haven't played it.

 

[startoonhero]

wow, i seriously thought i was the only one dealing with this issue when playing brawl.. cuz i would be randomly facing the other direction and getting pissed off wondering.. "WTF?!?! i didnt turn that way!!" and my friends would totally start owning me becuz of it.. im glad to see u guys found out the reason to this, so i can try my best to avoid it, becuz it does get really frustrating. :[

 

[brawlmaniac]

I have never heard of a universal buffer system...

 

[Winston]

I do have a problem with Card's post, though it isn't not nearly as bad as many of the posts here so eager to jump on SyniKaL for being "melee elitist".

What's up with this label of "Graceful" play?

How are like rolling, fail to minimize lag on your attacks, using clunky attacks instead of combos, and just moving slowly in general (these are the results of not utilizing "technical" play) graceful?

Where's this aesthetic judgement coming from?

To certain other people...

The fact that Melee was much more demanding technically made it just as much of a "mindgames" oriented game BECAUSE playing well demanded precise technical implementation WHILE keeping devoting your mental processes to playing smart and outsmarting your opponent.

Stop mindlessly knocking melee and/or SyniKaL. Stop running around and labeling everyone a whiner just because you can't or won't understand the points being made.

Also, Magus420 is one of the most credible and helpful posters I've seen on smashboards. Just sayin'.

 

[Zink]

Syn knows his stuff, people. He isn't an exclusively Smash player, or even a hugely active forum member: he probably posts more at SRK than here. And if you don't even understand buffering, how can you pretend to derogotate him?
Buffering is far more useful when you have a complex input and you can gaurantee a hit, ie buffering a stun edge for Ky in GG. In Smash, where there are few solid combos and all inputs are a button and one direction, it seems pretty out of place. I'm sure we'll get used to it, but it really doesn't have a place in Smash unless it's to mitigate lag online like someone suggested.

 

[SynikaL]

So my observation that Brawl benefiting pacing of moves over speed is a "******** agenda". I'm not even sure what you pulled out of card's post, but that's what he implied, and I agree with it. It does not necessarily need to be explicitly said. Wow, way to be a complete *******.

Look, I don't usually do this, but I do feel I owe you an apology. You didn't deserve that kind of tone in my response. You just really seem to be reaching for any attempt to create this distinction between play styles that simply does not exist and I'm not trying to create a "Brawl vs. Melee" or "Casual vs. Competitive" debate out of this thread. Technically inclined individuals are not brain-dead and not all smart players have lethargic fingers.


-Kye

 

[fr0st2k]

Look, I don't usually do this, but I do feel I owe you an apology. You didn't deserve that kind of tone in my response. You just really seem to be reaching for any attempt to create this distinction between play styles that simply does not exist and I'm not trying to create a "Brawl vs. Melee" or "Casual vs. Competitive" debate out of this thread. Technically inclined individuals are not brain-dead and not all smart players have lethargic fingers.


-Kye

i like you .. and thats quite a compliment considering i dont get along with like .. 90% of the people on this site :\

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^Seconding him, and apology accepted.

This is probably going to take a bit more thought. Melee SEEMED like it benefited somebody with faster fingers than a faster brain, but then I remember someone posting an example of seeing really fast Foxes in Melee tournaments, yet getting owned by much smarter low-tier characters.

 

[Winston]

^Seconding him, and apology accepted.

This is probably going to take a bit more thought. Melee SEEMED like it benefited somebody with faster fingers than a faster brain, but then I remember someone posting an example of seeing really fast Foxes in Melee tournaments, yet getting owned by much smarter low-tier characters.

The real point is that really Fast Foxes who were ABLE to play smart while being really fast were the players who did the best. I think that's a good way for a game to reward player skill.

Also, moving really fast in ssbm is really fun.

 

[pirkid]

I have never heard of a universal buffer system...

Most people haven't.

So, the controls aren't tight? Their different?

It seems as if we're going downhill with this game everyday, and it hasn't been released yet.

 

[lengeta]

I love the buffering, it's hawt. This is also more beneficial than detrimental; the game is slightly better for it. Now you don't have to time perfectly to get frame-perfect attacks out. [sarcasm]Now al teh scrubs r gonna pwn the trny***s. XO[/sarcasm]

 

[Firestorm88]

It seems to me like a way to deal with latency issues online. They give you buffer windows for inputs to allow for lag over the online connection and allow you to appear to be playing with more precise controls than you typically could in an online fighter. It will make the online experience appear to be closer to "normal" gameplay, but the effect on offline play is that it creates these bizarre buffer inputs that screw the more precise players up.

In response, players that are more competitive and precise with their inputs will need to properly use the buffer system to their advantage. Learn to buffer escapes, attacks, grabs & combos so that you execute things more quickly. This kind of play might make online play less rewarding, but will make players more competitive in live events.

This was my very first reaction when I even heard the word "buffer" mentioned. It seems to be a way to make online work better. I don't find it too detrimental to gameplay.

I think this is just an adjustment thing. Once you've adjusted from SSBM to playing this in "SSBB" mode, it should work better for you and just click.