How is my gender relevant to this discussion, or any discussion, enough to have the question "begged" for?
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***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!
- Thread starter RyokoYaksa
- Start date
- Status
Scieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeence
OK guys I made science, here are my results:
-An attack's power decreases on a curve after each successive use, first dropping sharply, then slowly bottoming out to a bit less than half the attack's max power after about 8 uses. You recharge your moves by using different attacks. It doesn't matter if you spam 1 attack, it will still recharge your other previously used attacks.
-Attacks that are bottomed out will recharge faster than attacks near max power. For example, if you use attack A for the first time, then a different attack, then A again, the second A will be weaker. However, if you weaken attack A to its minimum power, then use a different attack, then A again, the second A will be a bit stronger.
-The game remembers a lot of your attacks. I'm not sure if there's a threshold for the number of other moves you need to do before it forgets about a worn out attack and resets it (I know it remembers at least 12). I mean, I did 23% with Ike's Fsmash, did 8 other attacks, and my next Fsmash did 21%. It seems a max power attack will maintain its power with about 10 other attacks between each use, though.
-When you die, your power levels get reset. Zelda/PT can also reset their power through switching(!). Your power levels are not increased by waiting, attacking thin air, attacking someone who is blocking, getting attacked yourself, or switching your attacks to someone else (thus, attacking marth then sheik then marth with one attack will weaken it just as much as using it on marth 3 times).
-All attacks refresh other attacks equally. If you weaken attack X through repeated use, 10 weak jabs will recharge it just as much as 10 fully charged smashes. Different hits of A combos count as seperate attacks, as do seperate throws and throw punches(!). However, repeated hits of infinite punches (like sheik, fox, etc) and drill attacks (mario's Dair) do not count as seperate. Projectiles are weird, too: only the first needle in Sheik's needle storm counts.
-Attacking someone who's countering doesn't count. It counts for the counterer, though, so each successive counter will be weaker, regardless of the attack they're countering.
-Attacking an object DOES count. For example, attacking wario's bike, any destructible things like the walls in MGS land or Luigi's mansion, etc.
-There's a tiny bit of randomization in the damages
- damage doesn't decrease in training mode. This confused me for a while.
I'm just assuming knockback is proportional to damage here, as damage was a lot easier to measure. I used Ike for my tests, and I reset him (killed him) at each line break.
nuuuuuumbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers
dt=downtilt, fs=fsmash, na=nair etc
fs23, 19, 18, 16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 11, 10, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10...
dt14, 13, 11, 10, 10, 8, 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7
Full charge B 38, 34, 29, 27, 25, 22, 20, 19, 17, 17, 18, grab punchx20, charge B 38, gpx10, cB 36, gpx15, cB39
Dtilt:14 Ftilt:16 Fsmash:23 Dsmash:14
dt13 ft13 fs21 ds12
dt12 ft14 fs19 ds12 <-went through this cycle twice more but the numbers bottomed out here
dt14, ft16, fs23, ds14, ut12, na10
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut12, na8
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na9
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft16, 13, 13, 11, 9
dt13, ft10, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 7, 8, dt13, ft9, dt13, ft9, dt12, ft11, dt11, ft11, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10
fs23, ft15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
fs21, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, 19, 18, ft11, fs16, ft10, 11, fs16, ft12, 10, fs16
fs23, ftx9, fs23
AAA combo 4/5/7, 3/5/6, 3/4/6, 3/4/6
spam first hit till it only does 2 or 1 %
AAA combo 1/6/7
Good stuff good stuff.
OK guys I made science, here are my results:
-An attack's power decreases on a curve after each successive use, first dropping sharply, then slowly bottoming out to a bit less than half the attack's max power after about 8 uses. You recharge your moves by using different attacks. It doesn't matter if you spam 1 attack, it will still recharge your other previously used attacks.
-Attacks that are bottomed out will recharge faster than attacks near max power. For example, if you use attack A for the first time, then a different attack, then A again, the second A will be weaker. However, if you weaken attack A to its minimum power, then use a different attack, then A again, the second A will be a bit stronger.
-The game remembers a lot of your attacks. I'm not sure if there's a threshold for the number of other moves you need to do before it forgets about a worn out attack and resets it (I know it remembers at least 12). I mean, I did 23% with Ike's Fsmash, did 8 other attacks, and my next Fsmash did 21%. It seems a max power attack will maintain its power with about 10 other attacks between each use, though.
-When you die, your power levels get reset. Zelda/PT can also reset their power through switching(!). Your power levels are not increased by waiting, attacking thin air, attacking someone who is blocking, getting attacked yourself, or switching your attacks to someone else (thus, attacking marth then sheik then marth with one attack will weaken it just as much as using it on marth 3 times).
-All attacks refresh other attacks equally. If you weaken attack X through repeated use, 10 weak jabs will recharge it just as much as 10 fully charged smashes. Different hits of A combos count as seperate attacks, as do seperate throws and throw punches(!). However, repeated hits of infinite punches (like sheik, fox, etc) and drill attacks (mario's Dair) do not count as seperate. Projectiles are weird, too: only the first needle in Sheik's needle storm counts.
-Attacking someone who's countering doesn't count. It counts for the counterer, though, so each successive counter will be weaker, regardless of the attack they're countering.
-Attacking an object DOES count. For example, attacking wario's bike, any destructible things like the walls in MGS land or Luigi's mansion, etc.
-There's a tiny bit of randomization in the damages
- damage doesn't decrease in training mode. This confused me for a while.
I'm just assuming knockback is proportional to damage here, as damage was a lot easier to measure. I used Ike for my tests, and I reset him (killed him) at each line break.
nuuuuuumbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers
dt=downtilt, fs=fsmash, na=nair etc
fs23, 19, 18, 16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 11, 10, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10...
dt14, 13, 11, 10, 10, 8, 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7
Full charge B 38, 34, 29, 27, 25, 22, 20, 19, 17, 17, 18, grab punchx20, charge B 38, gpx10, cB 36, gpx15, cB39
Dtilt:14 Ftilt:16 Fsmash:23 Dsmash:14
dt13 ft13 fs21 ds12
dt12 ft14 fs19 ds12 <-went through this cycle twice more but the numbers bottomed out here
dt14, ft16, fs23, ds14, ut12, na10
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut12, na8
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na9
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft16, 13, 13, 11, 9
dt13, ft10, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 7, 8, dt13, ft9, dt13, ft9, dt12, ft11, dt11, ft11, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10
fs23, ft15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
fs21, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, 19, 18, ft11, fs16, ft10, 11, fs16, ft12, 10, fs16
fs23, ftx9, fs23
AAA combo 4/5/7, 3/5/6, 3/4/6, 3/4/6
spam first hit till it only does 2 or 1 %
AAA combo 1/6/7
Good stuff good stuff.
TheGlitchMaster
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,119
Ha! now all the fox/falco/wolf mains can't spam the shine 
That just means I will have to make smart usage of it instead of going on a shine spree....Ha! now all the fox/falco/wolf mains can't spam the shine
Awesome...
EDIT O_o wow Mughump, nice work.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Mugwhump, wow, that's some tasty science.
If all that's true, that's fabulous work man.
If all that's true, that's fabulous work man.
Cheezit
Smash Ace
Ryoko's Gender
but anyway nice find ryoko, i shall test this out later this week when my copy is here and all rdy to go.
NESSBOUNDER
Smash Master
Mughump...that was amazing. Well now we know how this mechanic works. Aint science great?
Anyway, I can suddenly see weak A attack combos becoming more common field.
Oh, and Ryoko: perhaps this means that if you use Zelda's Fsmash a lot, it will eventually become inescapable? (but at the expense of KO power?) Since the knockback of each hit will decrease?
Anyway, I can suddenly see weak A attack combos becoming more common field.
Oh, and Ryoko: perhaps this means that if you use Zelda's Fsmash a lot, it will eventually become inescapable? (but at the expense of KO power?) Since the knockback of each hit will decrease?
PokemonLegacy
Smash Apprentice
Hopefully this will diminish Pikachu-Thunder(B+down) Spammers.
Some more science:
-I think all 4 hits of Snake's nair count, but all 4 hits of Falco's nair only count as 1
-Most projectiles count. Snake's rocket/grenade and falco's lazer do
-Link's bow and bombs count, but it looks like his aerial hookshot doesn't
-I think all 4 hits of Snake's nair count, but all 4 hits of Falco's nair only count as 1
-Most projectiles count. Snake's rocket/grenade and falco's lazer do
-Link's bow and bombs count, but it looks like his aerial hookshot doesn't
kilroy
Smash Journeyman
wow wow wow. this is the best thread on this board right now. the implications of this set my mind ablaze with potential strategies.
man i can't wait to get my hands on this game.
man i can't wait to get my hands on this game.
Hydde
Smash Lord
nice nice find!!!! incredible!! good job everyone...
GreenKirby
Smash Master
Because you have demon Zelda for an icon. (Sure , SMART people know that it doesn't automatically mean you're a girl. But the common man wouldn't know that.)
Also, in a sexist time like this, if they find out you're a girl, they won't take you or even this topic as seriously. >_>
On topic: Good find. Now my brother won't spam Falco's down A so much.
Actually, I think it's more like, "did a girl just make one of the most important discoveries possible about Brawl? That is hot."
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure that if Ryoko were found to be female, the posts in this thread would double in number by the end of the day >_>
Too many people judge things like avatars and sigs (like when people thought Banks was black lulz).
I mean heck, I could be a girl, but with my bland username, "manly" Snake avatar, and stark black & white sig, you'd never know!
mugwhump, this is great info. Statistics make me happy =]
Too many people judge things like avatars and sigs (like when people thought Banks was black lulz).
I mean heck, I could be a girl, but with my bland username, "manly" Snake avatar, and stark black & white sig, you'd never know!
mugwhump, this is great info. Statistics make me happy =]
Girls are pretty. (ºдಠ)
Meta_Link
Smash Rookie
Cool, awesome find =)
Dark Nemesis
Smash Apprentice
Well, this makes Meta Knight look even better, due to his lack of killing moves.
And.. (This may be wrong) Marth's tipper isnearly useless now
..Great find, though.
And.. (This may be wrong) Marth's tipper isnearly useless now
..Great find, though.
Lunaretic
Smash Apprentice
That, is some of the most awesome Science ever.
To quote portal.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive". \o/ Thanks a ton for all those numbers! :D
To quote portal.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive". \o/ Thanks a ton for all those numbers! :D
Death33284
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2008
- Messages
- 4
mugwhump's findings should be added to the first post. Excellent work there.OK guys I made science, here are my results:
-An attack's power decreases on a curve after each successive use, first dropping sharply, then slowly bottoming out to a bit less than half the attack's max power after about 8 uses. You recharge your moves by using different attacks. It doesn't matter if you spam 1 attack, it will still recharge your other previously used attacks.
.
.
.
Good stuff good stuff.
Blue sHell
Smash Journeyman
Maybe The Moves Dont Get Weaker But The Opponent Gains Resistance
Sorry for the caps, I just really don't want this idea to be flooded and unseen.
RESISTANCE:
It's quite possible that the moves don't diminish in dmg and knockback, but the opponet taking the hits starts getting resistance. Think about it. This way everytime you kill your opponent all your moves will be "fresh" as you guys have been saying. It'd be a much better idea on the developers part, so I think it really is worth testing.
This is how I'll test(or someone else can):
Plug in three controls and pick Fox and two Marios. On one mario rack them up to 100% only using your gun. The second you rack up to 100% only using Upsmash(he won't die because it'll be so spammed). Then when the Upsmash Mario is at around 100% Upsmash him one last time and log the distance he goes up and the dmg he takes. Then simply walk over to the gunned Mario and Upsmash him once.
And if the gunned Mario takes a "fresh" hit. Then BAM we just discovered resistance.
------------------------------------
My friend that got brawl just a bit ago(and the reason I've had playtime) is gone to visit his girlfriend in another state till friday night and he brought his wii and brawl with him -_-.
On saturday I'll test this. Feel free to do so yourselves though.
Sorry for the caps, I just really don't want this idea to be flooded and unseen.
RESISTANCE:
It's quite possible that the moves don't diminish in dmg and knockback, but the opponet taking the hits starts getting resistance. Think about it. This way everytime you kill your opponent all your moves will be "fresh" as you guys have been saying. It'd be a much better idea on the developers part, so I think it really is worth testing.
This is how I'll test(or someone else can):
Plug in three controls and pick Fox and two Marios. On one mario rack them up to 100% only using your gun. The second you rack up to 100% only using Upsmash(he won't die because it'll be so spammed). Then when the Upsmash Mario is at around 100% Upsmash him one last time and log the distance he goes up and the dmg he takes. Then simply walk over to the gunned Mario and Upsmash him once.
And if the gunned Mario takes a "fresh" hit. Then BAM we just discovered resistance.
------------------------------------
My friend that got brawl just a bit ago(and the reason I've had playtime) is gone to visit his girlfriend in another state till friday night and he brought his wii and brawl with him -_-.
On saturday I'll test this. Feel free to do so yourselves though.
WHAT? If anything, people are much less sexist now, than ever before.
Terrabottuti
Smash Journeyman
Well, this thread is simply just AMAZING now. It's great that we've been able to find a whole new Brawl mechanic that could really change things around, like this, and such conclusive evidence as well... excellent work, mugwhump! There's nothing like having hard science to back things up, for once.
I must say that I'm rather pleased with this new mechanic of making stale moves actually become stale... it's a pretty common mechanic in fighting games and the like to promote a more colorful playing style, and I think that suits Smash Brothers perfectly. I'm guilty of attack spamming on occasions in Melee and 64, but something like this will easily promote me to explore all the aspects of the characters I play as. That's pretty good of the developers to do this, some could say it's just even more limitations in addition to what's been thrown about over the past few days, but at this one makes SENSE, and it doesn't destroy things completely.
As I have said, this will promote a little more variety as far as playing style goes, so I hope most new Brawl videos can reflect on this, since a lot of Melee videos could get pretty old since there were one or two very abuseable attacks that you would just see over and over again. At least things can spice up now... if they don't just trip all over the place!
I must say that I'm rather pleased with this new mechanic of making stale moves actually become stale... it's a pretty common mechanic in fighting games and the like to promote a more colorful playing style, and I think that suits Smash Brothers perfectly. I'm guilty of attack spamming on occasions in Melee and 64, but something like this will easily promote me to explore all the aspects of the characters I play as. That's pretty good of the developers to do this, some could say it's just even more limitations in addition to what's been thrown about over the past few days, but at this one makes SENSE, and it doesn't destroy things completely.
As I have said, this will promote a little more variety as far as playing style goes, so I hope most new Brawl videos can reflect on this, since a lot of Melee videos could get pretty old since there were one or two very abuseable attacks that you would just see over and over again. At least things can spice up now... if they don't just trip all over the place!
Nope
I don't think so.... if your opponent did have resistance, it would probably reset when your opponent dies, and opponents dying has no effect on the power of my attacks (it's ME dying that resets power).
And if you weaken a move on one character, it remains weak for other characters.
Onichi
Smash Apprentice
I'm extremely happy that this is in and has been found, (and i mean really happy, since in Melee a friend of mine mained marth and was just annoying with just forward tilts, d-smashs and counters. He is going to be a bit surprised.) However I'm not sure if anyone realized yet that this is one of the most 'anti-noob' thing we have found so far. Not only is it because you have to master the moveset and its applications, but you have to rotate your moves around and noobs in any fighting genre game (including Smash) tend to find one move and spam it 'til it works.
Since Sakurai said he was making in accessible to all and make it still masterable (in more or less words) i think this maybe what he was refering too.
Since Sakurai said he was making in accessible to all and make it still masterable (in more or less words) i think this maybe what he was refering too.
Gorlith
Smash Rookie
Very possible. This is an interesting mechanic in that way, it really increases the depth of game play beyond just spamming the same move a few time and then up spiking. I think it will make it so that you really have to come up with more complex combos. And as many have stated this is a double edged sword, it cuts spamming for damage/knock-back and makes it possible to sort of spam someone right into the range you need them to be at to complete/start a great combo. I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the aspects he was referring to.
Lunaretic
Smash Apprentice
Am I the only one really interested to see the -style- differentiations between competitive players once this is really well known? Take two mario players, one may try to cycle between his aerials for damage and then go for the Fsmash for the KO, another may decide to play a heavy ground game and roll with the Fsmash as a combo-finisher, and go for the backthrow KO.
The possible differences between players' styles even with the -same character- are immense. IMO the ideal characters based on this mechanic are going to be those with ~3 strong low-percent KO moves, and the rest all average level-semi-quick moves to rack up the dmg, allowing players to cycle between the KO moves to try and keep the mindgames flowing or for their own style preferences.
The possible differences between players' styles even with the -same character- are immense. IMO the ideal characters based on this mechanic are going to be those with ~3 strong low-percent KO moves, and the rest all average level-semi-quick moves to rack up the dmg, allowing players to cycle between the KO moves to try and keep the mindgames flowing or for their own style preferences.
Ok, there's been some research done on how moves recover from the "staleness" factor, but after reading through the whole thread, I'm still confused on one point - do moves gain "staleness" on whiffs/hitting shields? It appears that they become more stale when they hit something (breakable stage piece, item, opponent, whatever) and that all other moves become less stale when a different move hits something (same list). It also appears that if move A is stale, constantly whiffing move B will not make move A less stale (though smacking a wall over and over will).
However, here's what's probably the most important question: does whiffing move A over and over make move A more stale, or does it HAVE to connect with something? I'm assuming a whiff will make the move more stale (IIRC it happened that way in melee) but we have no evidence of this in brawl yet. Can someone make a test video of that?
However, here's what's probably the most important question: does whiffing move A over and over make move A more stale, or does it HAVE to connect with something? I'm assuming a whiff will make the move more stale (IIRC it happened that way in melee) but we have no evidence of this in brawl yet. Can someone make a test video of that?
It must connect, and deal damage to the object for a count of "staleness" to be applied to the attack.
Help!
Smash Journeyman
Thanks for the science Mugwhump
rushehidaka
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2008
- Messages
- 14
excellent work mugwhump!! I can already imagine all of the crazy things you can accomplish with this. Ike combos? yikes...
and ryoko, seriously though, GREAT FIND. You done made New Jersey proud.
and ryoko, seriously though, GREAT FIND. You done made New Jersey proud.
Why is everyone freaking out over this?
This is the exact same mechanic that was in Melee.
Not only that, the rate and amount by which an attack diminishes (1-2% every 8 swings based on attack) isn't enough to promote more verity, especially with with such a short reset time.
Marth isn't going to stop spamming fair over a 3% dmg difference just because he swung 20 times - no one is.
This is the exact same mechanic that was in Melee.
Not only that, the rate and amount by which an attack diminishes (1-2% every 8 swings based on attack) isn't enough to promote more verity, especially with with such a short reset time.
Marth isn't going to stop spamming fair over a 3% dmg difference just because he swung 20 times - no one is.
I think there will be a little optimization with this kept in mind, so you have a little edge. But most people will just do what they can do at the opertunity. So if you have an opertunity for a fsmash 3 times in a row and that's the best option. People will take it. Like I said, just mainly used for that extra bit of damage and extra bit of knockback. Though it sounds like with DI and such the way it is, every bit of knockback helps.
If you Fsmash someone once and it doesn't KO, it will not KO the 2nd time if used in succession. Or the 3rd time. Or the 4th time. Or the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th time.
In all that time you spent spamming Fsmash on your opponent and allowing the opponent to live and build up your damage meter, you could've spent the additional thought process into hitting them with something else that would've just KO'd outright.
In all that time you spent spamming Fsmash on your opponent and allowing the opponent to live and build up your damage meter, you could've spent the additional thought process into hitting them with something else that would've just KO'd outright.
READ THE FIRST POST. MY GOD.
Chaosteil
Smash Rookie
This is quite interesting news... Now I will have even less options for using my KO moves for metaknight.. But I see how this will be game-changing.
Now instead of wavedashing, efficient use of this mechanic could be the one, that separates the beginners from the pros, and the tournament scene will live on, with WiFi play even more than before. What can I say else.. Brawl is awesome!
(Can the Sakurai-bashing please stop now?)
Now instead of wavedashing, efficient use of this mechanic could be the one, that separates the beginners from the pros, and the tournament scene will live on, with WiFi play even more than before. What can I say else.. Brawl is awesome!
(Can the Sakurai-bashing please stop now?)
frankisvital
Smash Journeyman
This thread is way too important to be this far down on the page. It should really be stickied.
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