Interesting Tiers Are Interesting...

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Oh, hey SmashBoards! I didn't see you there.

Anyway, I suppose I'll cut right to the chase. Lately, I've been paying an unhealthy amouont of attention to the Super Smash Bros. Brawl tier list. Normally, I don't pay tier lists any attention in any sort of video game, but one day, my curiosity boiled over, and I had to have a look at Brawl's. I was really confused with my findings.

"What? Snake's ranked as second best?

Link's ranked behind JIGGLYPUFF??

DeDeDe's a TOP TIER CHARACTER???

Wha...?



Upon my first visit to the Brawl tier list, I left feeling befuddled and disoriented, and rightfully so. Snake had always felt clunky and slow to play as in my own personal experience playing as him, and DeDeDe had always been laughably easy for me to beat, and now I'm being told that these characters are supposed to be good? Great, even?

Huh?

Before going any further, you might want to see what I'm talking about. If you're like me, and don't pay any attention to fighting game tiers, you're probably finding this post somewhat difficult to follow.

It's dangerous to go alone. Take this!

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list

That, dear reader, is a link to a Smash Wiki article about Smash Bros. tiers. Go ahead and check out the Brawl tiers, if you feel like you need to, for it will make understanding the rest of this post much easier. You can memorize them, if you want. I'll wait...

...

...

...

All set? Alright then, let's continue.

As I previously mentioned, upon my first visit to this tier list, I was quite confounded. Snake, a character I found hard to use, was ranked right up at the top of the list, and Link, a character I had excelled at using for nearly all of my time playing Brawl, was placed waaaaaaay down at the bottom (more on that later). In my opinion, this tier list is screwed the heck up. Take Falco's position on the list, for example. S rank? Really? Something about that position seems... off... Where's Fox? If you think about it, Falco is a near clone of Fox, but somehow, Fox is placed three whole tiers below Falco, in the C rank. Why? In my opinion, Fox is slightly better than Falco, as he feels somewhat faster, and has a much more useful reflector shield. If I had created these tiers, Falco and Fox would have been placed within the same tier, within very close proximity with one another. The same thing goes for Wolf, another character that feels rediculously similar to Falco.

Another abnormality I found in this tier list, is the fact that King DeDeDe, a character that seemed so slow and unresponsive to me, had been placed in the S tier! How? I realize that he can chaingrab rather commendably, but other than that? He feels like an overweight penguin to control, and has the looks to match, at least in my experience with him.

And finally, Link. I've always thought that Link was an absolutely fantastic character to use; anyone else who mains as Link will probably tell you the same. Granted, his recovery is below average, and his movement abilities are somewhat restrictive, but come on! Second worst? Seriously, tier list? Surely he's better than Jigglypuff or Yoshi, right? I mean come on, at least put him into the D rank! Geez.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is, am I alone in believing that the Brawl tier list seems a little wonky? And if not, why do you think that the list is incorrect? State your opinions below.

But anyway, I'm not that big of a believer in Smash Bros. tiers to begin with. Brawl is a really well balanced game, and I believe that, because of that, each character can be played evenly (yes, even Ganondorf), albeit, with different techniques and learning curves.

Anyway, thanks for reading!

 

[lordvaati]

well, tiers aren't ranked from "easiest to use" to "hardest". they are like score charts, rating characters in certain areas. look at the original SFII, for example. Dhalsim is hard as hell to use, yet he's ranked second best in the game. It's kinda like that.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Well for one thing, just because YOU aren't good with a character, doesn't make them bad.

Also, the most recent tier list is almost 6 months old (more or less, I didn't check), so obviously it' can't be THAT accurate.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Have... Have you been playing with CPUs...?

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Have... Have you been playing with CPUs...?

Uh, no, not really...

 

[ndayday]

Questions should probably go in the Tier list thread or the Q&A thread. Both are in Tactical.

But yeah. As a Link main, I can

Spoiler

not

agree with you on him being good. He's trash.

 

[bleyva]

tier lists are indicative of only THE top/gayest tactics in the game, and when those tactics are abused to their fullest ability, characters like Link and Fox arent going anywhere when there are clear roadblocks in the way.

playing keep-away with link might work against scrubby friends, but it just isnt practical in a competitive world where you can win so much more consistently with mk or snake.

 

[Naraku]

DDD vs Link. For luck :3

 

[Luxor]

The tier list is only reflective of top level competitive play. It doesn't apply for a bunch of randoms playing Smash as a party game.

/thread

 

[UltiMario]

The Tier list is a collection of data, most of which is Tournement results.

Accoring to those Tourney results, Snake, Falco, and DDD are good, Fox isn't great, and Link is trash.

No one person can decide what the tier list looks like, because no one person can max out the potential with every character.


Well, unless the Game is Smash 64, and you just to happen to be Isai, of course.

 

[Apollo$]

Play competitive brawl, then things will start to make more sense.

 

[Mota]

This made me lol, thank you good sir.

Seriously though I understand where you're coming from, before I came to SWF I felt the exact same way, KingDDD and Snake were slow and meh, whereas with Link I was beating lvl 9CPU Then you watch one video and you see Snakes godly tilts and nades, DDD bair and excellent grab.

It's quite funny how clueless we are before joining a forum.

 

[G&Wfanatic]

he sounds like a c-sticker. i think that's why he thinks dedede and snake suck. he has no idea how to use tilts.

 

[highfive]

You think Link is good? That's cute. :3

 

[fZk]

I can understand not seeing how incredible Snake is from the viewpoint of a random smash player that just plays CPU's or his little cousin, but Link is awful at every possible level. This guy has no idea what he's talking about.

Close this.

 

[UltiMario]

That's a bit mean, don't you think?

You could have at least let this thread die rather than bringing it back up and insulting him while doing so.

 

[Nova9000]

The thing is, each character is p[laced in regards to something. Take my main for example, ROB. ROB is a great character, but he has bad MUs which prevent him from growing any further in the tier list. It just so happens that those bad MUs are in the S tier, so it's not much that can be done except deal with it and prove to everyone how great your character is. Another example is DK. DK has incredible potential, but DDD will never allow him to be anything above B tier at best. The one move alone makes that much of a difference in competitive play.

Now to get to your point, Link is trash. Compared to Melee, IMO he was nerfed. His recovery is like half as good as it was in Melee, his power was nerfed, he's still slow, has no way of dealing with certain things, ect. I could go on and on about Link, but the fact is Sakurai made him as bad as he was in 64 roughly. If you want more proof of how bad Link is, check the Character boards and look at a MU chart and see how much justice you get on your opinion.
Anyway, you should read up on characters a bit more before posting opinions because it makes you look like a noob when maybe you aren't.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You think Link is good? That's cute. :3

QFT.

10QFT's

 

[ETWIST51294]

I'm not gonna lie, I actually think link was better in 64. >_>

 

[Pokemon Z RPG]

I don't agree with most of the tier list as well tbh, but everyone will have their own, different opinions. I personally think Toon Link should have been ranked higher, but that's just me, I might just think that because he's my main. Unlike 75% of the people on this forum, I don't think Metaknight is as good as you say he is, I didn't think he was very good at all, same goes with Snake.

 

[Meru.]

I'd just like to say that the people who made the tier list, did not pull it out of their ***.

menounderwater <--- ignore this.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

DDD and Snake are too good man. lol. He reminds me of me when i just joined the forums. You'll fully understand overtime why these characters are ranked in a certain position.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Ok, think what you will about Link. I just have to disagree with you

Sorry guys, but I've played my fair share of maches against these so-called "pros", and have been able to wipe the floor with them as Link. I don't know what your own personal exper-

OH! Wait, I have a great quote for this!

"Well for one thing, just because YOU aren't good with a character, doesn't make them bad."
-TaterSalad0881

That's pretty much it. Deal.

Oh, and Luxor, what makes you assume I'm just a random playing Smash as a party game?

Anyway, I wish you all luck on your own individual excursions

 

[VitaminC]

Tier Lists are designed around the chance a character has to win a tournament, taking into account all of the metagame and MUs at the time of creation. Link, as far as anyone was concerned, didn't place very high in tournaments. If you want Link to be somewhat good, play SSB64 or Melee.

Maybe you could show us a video of your Link so everyone can see how amazing he apparently is.

 

[Samps]

I still kinda feel that Lucas should be higher on the tier list. I know he has the grab release penalty and its pretty easy to abuse, but i still think his prolonged hitboxes and high priority make up for it.

 

[gm jack]

I still kinda feel that Lucas should be higher on the tier list. I know he has the grab release penalty and its pretty easy to abuse, but i still think his prolonged hitboxes and high priority make up for it.

If nothing else, Marth having an infinite on him is really quite bad. While low tiers may have a few good things, those above them either have better tools, or better versions of the same tools.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Sorry guys, but I've played my fair share of maches against these so-called "pros", and have been able to wipe the floor with them as Link. I don't know what your own personal exper-

Pros? It'd be nice to have some names, please.

"Well for one thing, just because YOU aren't good with a character, doesn't make them bad."
-TaterSalad0881

That's pretty much it. Deal.

And just because some people can use bad characters well cannot make said characters good.

But anyway, I'm not that big of a believer in Smash Bros. tiers to begin with. Brawl is a really well balanced game, and I believe that, because of that, each character can be played evenly (yes, even Ganondorf), albeit, with different techniques and learning curves.

The tier list ranks the characters from best to worse (essentially). If Brawl were as well balanced as you say, then don't you think the tier list would have very few tiers, or perhaps not exist at all? Brawl is not balanced.

I suggest that you go to a tournament and then see if your opinions change.

 

[gm jack]

But anyway, I'm not that big of a believer in Smash Bros. tiers to begin with. Brawl is a really well balanced game, and I believe that, because of that, each character can be played evenly (yes, even Ganondorf), albeit, with different techniques and learning curves.

Anyway, thanks for reading!

Ganondorf has no moves other than his pathetically ranged grab which are not spot dodgable on reaction. MK has killing moves faster than that.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, think what you will about Link. I just have to disagree with you

Sorry guys, but I've played my fair share of maches against these so-called "pros", and have been able to wipe the floor with them as Link. I don't know what your own personal exper-

OH! Wait, I have a great quote for this!

"Well for one thing, just because YOU aren't good with a character, doesn't make them bad."
-TaterSalad0881

That's pretty much it. Deal.

Oh, and Luxor, what makes you assume I'm just a random playing Smash as a party game?

Anyway, I wish you all luck on your own individual excursions

Who are these so called "pros" you play agianst? Your friends?

I still kinda feel that Lucas should be higher on the tier list. I know he has the grab release penalty and its pretty easy to abuse, but i still think his prolonged hitboxes and high priority make up for it.

I love these newbies that have no idea what makes a character good in smash. http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=127918

 

[UltiMario]

OH! Wait, I have a great quote for this!

"Well for one thing, just because YOU aren't good with a character, doesn't make them bad."
-TaterSalad0881

That's pretty much it. Deal.

Link mains think that Link is trash.

/thread

 

[Baro]

I am convinced this is a troll thread.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I am convinced this is a troll thread.

When will people realize that new members and trolls are completely different things? New members are simply new to Smash, like this guy, and therefore do not have all of the background knowledge on different topics than forum veterans. Trolls have the knowledge, and post stupidly on purpose in order to anger others or in an attempt to be funny.

This guy is clearly new. Give him some time.

 

[Tacel]

I completely agree with SpaghettiWeegee.

As hard as I can, I try to stay away from tiers. In my opinion, tiers are completely ridiculous and completely biased. Do tiers prevent a Jigglypuff from beating a Meta Knight? Since when should you be underestimated because of the character that you main?

I find it funny that the excuse for the confusion caused by the tier list is that it's old. Brawl has been out for about 23 months now. People have had all the characters in Brawl for probably about 23 months now. Are characters changing? No. No, they aren't. Players have been getting better with characters, but the characters themselves are not changing.

Tiers should not stop you from being your favorite Nintendo character. Do some people feel that they have to be a top tier character? I seriously don't know, but I hope to God that that isn't the case.

I mained Lucario because I like him as a character. I didn't even look at any tier list. I like Pokémon. I like Lucario. I like to play as him. I also have the full confidence that I could beat a beginner that picked Meta Knight based off of tiers. Before Brawl came out, I was psyched about Meta Knight. I thought that he was awesome in all of the Kirby games that he was in. I earned him in any game I could, such as Kirby: Nightmare in Dreamland and Kirby Air Ride. I was planning on maining him to the max. Did I? No. Once we got home from the midnight release, I wanted to play as him, but when I did... I realized how much I disliked playing as him. To me, he was way too fast. Nobody should be forced to play as him just because he's a top tier. Not only should you like the character, but you should enjoy fighting as that character.

I know that my brother is very good as Link. No matter who I am, he usually beats me. I also believe that he has some video game skills that I do not yet possess. If you bring tiers into this, my brother should rarely if ever win, but he does. That is because he is a better video game player than me. Am I a bad video game player? I don't think so. Yet, I am a better tier.

To me, tiers are what potential a character has. That potential can increase depending on the user. Think of this: a player is quick to think and has great hand eye coordination. He has been playing as Link ever since the first Super Smash Brothers for the N64 came out. He goes up against a great Snake using Link. Based off of tiers, Snake clearly has greater potential than Link, but Link wins. What do you think is the cause of this outcome? I believe that this would be because of a player with experience and skill. What's more, this smasher picked Link for his love of Zelda games. Isn't that what Super Smash Brothers was made for? Being able to duke it out with your favorite Nintendo characters and have a good time?

 

[UltiMario]

Tier lists are pretty much collections of Tourney results, they can't be biased since its data. It represents tourney data, and IN GENERAL, who has the most good/bad match-ups. It doesn't mean a Jiggly can't beat a MK, or a Link can't beat a Snake, its just EXTREMELY UNLIKELY from equally skilled players.

The wall of text above me now means nothing.

 

[Pokemon Z RPG]

I completely agree with SpaghettiWeegee.

As hard as I can, I try to stay away from tiers. In my opinion, tiers are completely ridiculous and completely biased. Do tiers prevent a Jigglypuff from beating a Meta Knight? Since when should you be underestimated because of the character that you main?

I find it funny that the excuse for the confusion caused by the tier list is that it's old. Brawl has been out for about 23 months now. People have had all the characters in Brawl for probably about 23 months now. Are characters changing? No. No, they aren't. Players have been getting better with characters, but the characters themselves are not changing.

Tiers should not stop you from being your favorite Nintendo character. Do some people feel that they have to be a top tier character? I seriously don't know, but I hope to God that that isn't the case.

I mained Lucario because I like him as a character. I didn't even look at any tier list. I like Pokémon. I like Lucario. I like to play as him. I also have the full confidence that I could beat a beginner that picked Meta Knight based off of tiers. Before Brawl came out, I was psyched about Meta Knight. I thought that he was awesome in all of the Kirby games that he was in. I earned him in any game I could, such as Kirby: Nightmare in Dreamland and Kirby Air Ride. I was planning on maining him to the max. Did I? No. Once we got home from the midnight release, I wanted to play as him, but when I did... I realized how much I disliked playing as him. To me, he was way too fast. Nobody should be forced to play as him just because he's a top tier. Not only should you like the character, but you should enjoy fighting as that character.

I know that my brother is very good as Link. No matter who I am, he usually beats me. I also believe that he has some video game skills that I do not yet possess. If you bring tiers into this, my brother should rarely if ever win, but he does. That is because he is a better video game player than me. Am I a bad video game player? I don't think so. Yet, I am a better tier.

To me, tiers are what potential a character has. That potential can increase depending on the user. Think of this: a player is quick to think and has great hand eye coordination. He has been playing as Link ever since the first Super Smash Brothers for the N64 came out. He goes up against a great Snake using Link. Based off of tiers, Snake clearly has greater potential than Link, but Link wins. What do you think is the cause of this outcome? I believe that this would be because of a player with experience and skill. What's more, this smasher picked Link for his love of Zelda games. Isn't that what Super Smash Brothers was made for? Being able to duke it out with your favorite Nintendo characters and have a good time?

Very well put. That is often the case and is why I am also against tier lists, because, like you said, it really depends on the person. Someone can be just as good with Link as someone is with Metaknight, or better. It all comes down to the player's strategies, ways of using the character's moves, and experience that makes them a good brawler, not the character they use.

 

[Tacel]

Tier lists are pretty much collections of Tourney results, they can't be biased since its data. It represents tourney data, and IN GENERAL, who has the most good/bad match-ups. It doesn't mean a Jiggly can't beat a MK, or a Link can't beat a Snake, its just EXTREMELY UNLIKELY from equally skilled players.

The wall of text above me now means nothing.

You obviously didn't understand what I was getting at.
But you are right about the biased part.

Very well put. That is often the case and is why I am also against tier lists, because, like you said, it really depends on the person. Someone can be just as good with Link as someone is with Metaknight, or better. It all comes down to the player's strategies, ways of using the character's moves, and experience that makes them a good brawler, not the character they use.

You are exactly right.

 

[smashmachine]

this thread is drawing out all the scrubs

tiers DO exist

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

As hard as I can, I try to stay away from tiers. In my opinion, tiers are completely ridiculous and completely biased. Do tiers prevent a Jigglypuff from beating a Meta Knight? Since when should you be underestimated because of the character that you main?

That's not what tiers are. Tiers don't say that X character cannot beat Y character. Those are matchups.

Tiers should not stop you from being your favorite Nintendo character. Do some people feel that they have to be a top tier character? I seriously don't know, but I hope to God that that isn't the case.

They don't. Tiers do not govern which character you can play. That's called personal preference.

I mained Lucario because I like him as a character. I didn't even look at any tier list. I like Pokémon. I like Lucario. I like to play as him. I also have the full confidence that I could beat a beginner that picked Meta Knight based off of tiers.

What's your point? Yeah, of course you can, because it's a beginner. Just because MK isn't top tier doesn't mean that anyone can pick him up and win.

Before Brawl came out, I was psyched about Meta Knight. I thought that he was awesome in all of the Kirby games that he was in. I earned him in any game I could, such as Kirby: Nightmare in Dreamland and Kirby Air Ride. I was planning on maining him to the max. Did I? No. Once we got home from the midnight release, I wanted to play as him, but when I did... I realized how much I disliked playing as him. To me, he was way too fast. Nobody should be forced to play as him just because he's a top tier. Not only should you like the character, but you should enjoy fighting as that character.

I don't think you understand what tiers are. Tiers never tell anyone who to main. They simply state the relative position of each character.

I know that my brother is very good as Link. No matter who I am, he usually beats me. I also believe that he has some video game skills that I do not yet possess. If you bring tiers into this, my brother should rarely if ever win, but he does. That is because he is a better video game player than me. Am I a bad video game player? I don't think so. Yet, I am a better tier.

That's because he's a better player. Tiers don't say that Link can never beat Lucario. They say that Lucario is a better character than Link.

To me, tiers are what potential a character has. That potential can increase depending on the user. Think of this: a player is quick to think and has great hand eye coordination. He has been playing as Link ever since the first Super Smash Brothers for the N64 came out. He goes up against a great Snake using Link. Based off of tiers, Snake clearly has greater potential than Link, but Link wins. What do you think is the cause of this outcome? I believe that this would be because of a player with experience and skill. What's more, this smasher picked Link for his love of Zelda games. Isn't that what Super Smash Brothers was made for? Being able to duke it out with your favorite Nintendo characters and have a good time?

You're portraying the tier list as a massive oppressive beast who takes the fun out of everything. It isn't. It doesn't tell anyone who to main, and certainly doesn't say whether or not one character can beat another. Matchups are used to determine who will win between two characters of equal skill levels, the tier list ranks characters based on how good they are compared to every other character.

 

[UltiMario]

**** you Vrael I was in the mood to rant but you already did all the explaining for me.

 

[Youko]

People need to stop having misconceptions on what tiers really are and then have logical discussions about them in the stickied Tier List thread in the Tactical Discussion forum.