Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[Eddie G]

Indeed, I was. Brawl isn't meant to be hacked... ... ...

It isn't meant to be played competitively either, look how far that got.

 

[Diddy2k8]

Hell no brawl isn't more balanced. When the game 1st came out i did think it was. But then again when the game 1st came out people though tl was the best char in the game and that snake was going to be low tier. Look how things change??

But to back up what im saying lets just take a look at the top and high tiers in melee.

Top tier-Shiek,Marth.Fox,Falco
High Tier,Peach,Falcon,Jiggly,IC
Mid,Samus,D-Mario,Dorf,Luigi,DK


Even though there are deftinaley tiers in melee the level between say shiek and d-mario isn't as crazy as say the level between mk and luigi. Basically the top tiers in brawl serverly outplays the other chars then the top tiers in melee. In melee players of equal skill can pick shiek and roy and still have very close matches. In brawl people of same skill level can pick mk and pokemon trainer and at the very least will get 2 stocked. But all in all as a peach main when i beat mk,snakes,and robs it makes the win that much more satisfying cause i know i deftinaley outplayed them.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

peach was in top in melee >.>

 

[IrArby]

Doesn't matter if it takes skill to use, it's still a broken aspect of the game.

If waveshining is so broken why are Yuna and AZ having a discussion over Marth's Melee dominance since Fox is ranked higher. Fox is not broken and him and Falco get combo the worst out of anyone in the game due to assorted CGs/Juggling. As someone pointed out earlier the only thing that keeps down mid, low, and bottom tiers is Shiek since many of those chars have decent matchups against Fox/Falco and a few have decent matchups against Marth.

 

[metaXzero]

If waveshining is so broken why are Yuna and AZ having a discussion over Marth's Melee dominance since Fox is ranked higher. Fox is not broken and him and Falco get combo the worst out of anyone in the game due to assorted CGs/Juggling. As someone pointed out earlier the only thing that keeps down mid, low, and bottom tiers is Shiek since many of those chars have decent matchups against Fox/Falco and a few have decent matchups against Marth.

Now? Where?

 

[Flamingo]

peach was in top in melee >.>

Why'd they have to go and nerf Sheik and Peach.. :\... they weren't OP.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

cause Sakurai loves Kirby and Marth. >__>
i don't think peach got hit as hard as sheik, but the game itself screws poor CF and JP.

 

[Dark Sonic]

peach was in top in melee >.>

No she wasn't. She was, and still is, only high tier.

The current tier list has
Top:
Fox/Marth
Shiek
Falco
High:
Peach
Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers

In the one before it...Fox and Falco were the only top tiers.

@IrArby
Umm...not really. Marth and Shiek pretty much wreck the mid tiers and below. Almost all mid tiers and below have at least two disadvantages against the top four (not I said disadvantages, not hard counters).

 

[metaXzero]

Why'd they have to go and nerf Sheik and Peach.. :\... they weren't OP.

Sheik wrecked lower characters harder then Marth/Fox/Falco/Marth.

Frickin hate Melee Sheik ):<

 

[IrArby]

Yoshi(bottom tier), Link(low tier), and Ganondorf (mid tier) both have almost 45-55 or 40-60 matchups with Marth. I said Shiek ruins every below her which is basically true except for like Doc.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Notice that I said at least two of the top four. Yoshi, Link, and Ganondorf have a lot of trouble with Shiek, Falco, and Fox (I think it's like 70:30 or something)

Actually, Yoshi does get wrecked by Marth.

Shiek is not exclusively ruining the midtiers and below, it's the combined matchups of the entire top tier that gives them problems.

 

[IrArby]

But doesn't Shiek keep many more lower tiered players down than Marth does? Which is my point. And I thought Yoshi would have as good of a chance as most bottom tierers against Fox since he so comboable. Obviously, his pitful shield would make a matchup against Falco terrible though.

You make a good point that every low character has at least two bad matchups against the high/tops but I still think Shiek has more and a bigger advantage over those characters than Fox/Falco do. As far as the Yoshi-Marth matchup, I've never played a decent Yoshi so I'm really going more by what the matchup section in the Marth tutorial says (and Fumi combo videos lol). So I'll take you word on that as thatguide is a little outdated now.

Also,

 

[xXTACXx]

yes of coarse brawl is more balanced than melee

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, to me it really doesn't matter "how badly" a character gets *****. If it's worse than 70:30, I expect them to pull out a secondary or something.

Shiek wrecks those characters harder, but that's not what makes them bad. What makes them bad is that they generally have trouble with most of the top tier, even if one or two of those matchups is only slightly disadvantaged.

Yoshi-Marth gets a lot easier when Marth starts pressuring Yoshi with fairs and d-tilts. Yoshi has a good crouch cancel and a fast d-tilt, so it really needs to be treated more like the Samus matchup (if your spacing isn't perfect, you will get punished). Basically, if Marth doesn't mess up there's really nothing Yoshi can do, and even if he does mess up it only slightly narrows the gap between them.

 

[Fletch]

yes of coarse brawl is more balanced than melee

Way to contribute nothing to this thread except your idiotic and unsupported argument.

Shiek is not exclusively ruining the midtiers and below, it's the combined matchups of the entire top tier that gives them problems.

While they don't have the best matchups with the top tiers, some characters just get utterly ***** in the Sheik matchup to a ridiculous extent. I'm not saying it would make lower tiers necessarily better without Sheik, but without the threat of her, I think a lot of the lower tiers could at least come close to tops.

 

[IrArby]

I agree with fletch 71011 since Falco and Fox can really get punished and are usually easier to edgeguard than Shiek though people will debate the latter part. Still, the point remains that alot of chars beneath Marth are the same speed or slower so getting inside his range is still a big obstacle. Its not the obvious **** the CGing someone for 50% or whatever that Shiek does though.

 

[Yuna]

Edreese and Snakeee say hi!

Edreese placed 7th out of about 110 in a regional Texas tourney WITH PEACH- Hobo 11.
Snakeee placed 5th and then 3rd in two recent regional tourneys WITH ZSS- C3 (VA) and then CH 4.5 (MD).

Edreese and Snakeee happen to be two of the best players in the United States. Now tell me, how come they place 7th at major tournaments, but still don't win their local tournaments, often placing "only" Top 5 and sometimes not even in the Top 5?

(I'm assuming. I only know Edreese's stats, I have not checked up on Snakeee's)

So Edreese managed to place 7th once at a major tournament. And? Does this mean Peach is magically viable to win major tournaments? Then why was it only 7th? And if he can possibly win against some of the best players in the United States, why is he still losing to players who aren't among the best players in the United States at the local level?

And how come you could only pull out two examples? If a character is viable, you should be able to pull out plenty of examples where they have placed in the Top 5.

Honestly, I have no opinion on which game is more balanced. I just thought I should let you guys know that those characters can place well in the right hands.

And you obviously didn't pay attention to my post. Because I said that. In the right hands, almost all characters can "place well". But they can still be unviable.

Maybe they got lucky in the brackets and didn't run into any match-ups against really good players whose characters outclassed theirs. Maybe they just played really well. Maybe their opponents were just not that up-to-speed on the match-up.

But still, it's just two players. Doing well at one tournament each. If their characters are so viable and they are so capable, why aren't they Top 5:ing every single major tournament they're going to? Why aren't they even Top 5:ing every local and/or minor tournament they go to?

ummmmmmmmmmmm... Brawl is better, no stupid wavedashing, less pointless mindgames, and allllso.... Less 0-death combos... thank u.

Oh by the way... Ban MK, and DDD's infinite.

If this isn't sarcasm, well... let's just say I wish I were mod and SWF allowed for draconian modding against stupidity.

So how many people have to be the most dominant player in the country with the same character for you to admit that that character is the best?

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of the fact that your main argument was that Marth was the best character in Melee. I wasn't even aware that I had ever contested that!

Nothing I said was in any way denying the fact that Marth was the best character in Melee. Nothing. Because that wasn't even what was beingargued!

You can be the best character in a game and still not be the only character who's capable of consistently winning major tournaments, which I'll remind you was your argument, the one I was arguing against.

Any proof that you could win reliably on at a national tournament with any character other than Marth? Can you locate any character (aside from Marth-because multiple people did the feet with Marth accross the lifespan of Melee) that won 2 or 3 national tournaments in a row? "Reliably win" sounds like "make it to the finals and lose to Marth".

This is this and that is that. This isn't conclusive proof that Marth was the only character who could reliable win national tournaments.

It's circumstancial. With this logic, Ice Climbers and Captain Falcon are way, way, way better characters than Sheik, Peach and possibly even Falco since they placed high (and sometimes won) way more than those characters (except for Sheik for a while there)! And Peach had no place being in the Top, High or even close to those tiers.

I mean, she was outdone in placings by several characters! Why the hell is she even up there?!

 

[camzaman]

I hope you're not a mod, Yuna, most mods are nice and concise but you have a knack for walls of text =)

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Yuna is concise.

 

[JPOBS]

My opinion:

Both games have broken aspects to them.
In melee: Fox's shine, Marth's 0-death chaingrabs on spacies, Shiek's chain grabs, Ice Climbers wobbling. these things JUST ARENT FAIR.

Brawl: DDD chingrab, Metaknight's existence. these things JUST ARENT FAIR

the difference is that in melee, it actually took skill. Waveshine is a very difficult tactic to master and become proficient at, and in all melee instances, once you perform the move perfectly, the opponent has little options to escape just like brawl. But atleast in melee, it was A LOT harder to pull these things off. Brawl skill set is so non-existant that doing things like DDD's chain grab isnt even impressive.

 

[Deathcarter]

My opinion:

Both games have broken aspects to them.
In melee: Fox's shine, Marth's 0-death chaingrabs on spacies, Shiek's chain grabs, Ice Climbers wobbling. these things JUST ARENT FAIR.

Brawl: DDD chingrab, Metaknight's existence. these things JUST ARENT FAIR

the difference is that in melee, it actually took skill. Waveshine is a very difficult tactic to master and become proficient at, and in all melee instances, once you perform the move perfectly, the opponent has little options to escape just like brawl. But atleast in melee, it was A LOT harder to pull these things off. Brawl skill set is so non-existant that doing things like DDD's chain grab isnt even impressive.

Level of skill required to do a technique is irrelevent. It a technique is capable of being mastered by the human hand, it WILL be used in high level tournament play.

Besides, ALL of the broken stuff in Brawl is only truly effective against the bad characters (and DK). Luigi, Mario, Samus would not of come suddenly viable if the chaingrab did not exist. Fox is disadvantaged to the majority of the Top tier; Pikachu is not the sole reason for his unviability.

I must mention that Meta Knight only ***** the bad characters. Everyone mentions him like he is an omnipotent god. I am VERY certain that DDD and Snake could be just as dominant as him. Everyone is just too into this Meta Knight craze. They are significantly ahead of the other 34 characters, they **** the lower tiers even better than Meta (and by lower tiers, I mean mid and below). Those characters, though worse than Meta, will rise to prominance soon. I am very confident that you can use Meta, DDD, and Snake independent of a secondary. After them, Brawl has at least double the amount of viable high tier characters as Melee. They are close in balance.

 

[Ace Of Flames]

Not in a million years is it more balanced.

 

[metaXzero]

Level of skill required to do a technique is irrelevent. It a technique is capable of being mastered by the human hand, it WILL be used in high level tournament play.

Besides, ALL of the broken stuff in Brawl is only truly effective against the bad characters (and DK). Luigi, Mario, Samus would not of come suddenly viable if the chaingrab did not exist. Fox is disadvantaged to the majority of the Top tier; Pikachu is not the sole reason for his unviability.

I must mention that Meta Knight only ***** the bad characters. Everyone mentions him like he is an omnipotent god. I am VERY certain that DDD and Snake could be just as dominant as him. Everyone is just too into this Meta Knight craze. They are significantly ahead of the other 34 characters, they **** the lower tiers even better than Meta (and by lower tiers, I mean mid and below). Those characters, though worse than Meta, will rise to prominance soon. I am very confident that you can use Meta, DDD, and Snake independent of a secondary. After them, Brawl has at least double the amount of viable high tier characters as Melee. They are close in balance.

Snake MAYBE (he has some bad match-ups, but may be able to beat them) but NOT Dedede.

 

[IrArby]

IMO approximately half of what makes a character good or bad in Brawl is priority. I'm asking here since I don't know but who's priority beats whose? MK's Fair/Nado/Side B thingie vs. Snakes Jab combo/Ftilt/Snake Dash? I would guess MK would have the upper hand here. MK has the better recovery however Snake has more powerful knockback moves than MK (except MK's UpB obviously) and Snake has the advantage of being able to kill MK upwards. I think its harder for Snake to camp MK but I'm not positive on that. These are more questions than statements though I'm kinda more sure of some than of others so your thoughts?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Luigi, Mario, Samus would not of come suddenly viable if the chaingrab did not exist.

um...this is Brawl not Melee lol. Mario bros are already viable as long as Dedede's not in the mix.

Fox is disadvantaged to the majority of the Top tier;

...and who ISN'T?

I must mention that Meta Knight only ***** the bad characters.

Brawl MK =/= Melee Sheik lol. MK ***** the good characters too.

Everyone mentions him like he is an omnipotent god. I am VERY certain that DDD and Snake could be just as dominant as him. Everyone is just too into this Meta Knight craze. They are significantly ahead of the other 34 characters, they **** the lower tiers even better than Meta (and by lower tiers, I mean mid and below). Those characters, though worse than Meta, will rise to prominance soon. I am very confident that you can use Meta, DDD, and Snake independent of a secondary. After them, Brawl has at least double the amount of viable high tier characters as Melee. They are close in balance.

I agree with most of this, however I think there are possibly more characters you can add to that equation. G&W? Falco? Diddy? IC? (more people are mastering 0-death CGs, it's only a matter of time T_T)

 

[Yuna]

um...this is Brawl not Melee lol. Mario bros are already viable as long as Dedede's not in the mix.

No, they really aren't.

...and who ISN'T?

The Top Tiers and High Tiers. Which is why they are Top and High Tiers (and viable).

Brawl MK =/= Melee Sheik lol. MK ***** the good characters too.

If you think going even or close to even against people equals ****.

I agree with most of this, however I think there are possibly more characters you can add to that equation. G&W? Falco? Diddy? IC? (more people are mastering 0-death CGs, it's only a matter of time T_T)

IC's have crappy grab range, crappy traction and the infinite requires Nana to not be separated from Popo and desynched at the same time. The reason why IC's aren't sweeping tournaments are because even with their infinites, they are barely viable.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Brawl MK =/= Melee Sheik lol. MK ***** the good characters too.

This is untrue. No character who is currently high tier or higher gets "***** by MK" (aka loses 7/3 or higher).

No, they really aren't.

Luigi actually is...

 

[Yuna]

Luigi actually is...

Not very. Barely.

 

[GofG]

If someone were tournament viable...

...wouldn't people actually use them in tournaments?

I don't know anyone who has won money playing Luigi or Mario.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

im sure some people have won smaller tournaments as other characters, but as the tourney gets bigger you see less variety and mostly just the same few or one being used, with other characters as maybe a cp. besides in places where the infinite isn't banned im sure you won't see a bunch of Mario and Luigis, out there.

 

[IrArby]

Lets just leave items on so EVERYONE can win again. A once great Marth can now lose to a scrub R.O.B. and everyone will be happy then right?

 

[Deathcarter]

Lets just leave items on so EVERYONE can win again. A once great Marth can now lose to a scrub R.O.B. and everyone will be happy then right?

I hope that you are being sarcastic. Because the competetive fighting game community values gameplay over balance. Melee and Marvel vs. Capcom are prime examples of this. Besides, items make Brawl MORE unbalanced.

Then again, civility from all of the posters on Smashboards is too much of an aggrieving expectation to force on people.

Spoiler

Unless your Yuna. Eh supports draconian modding of stupidity and doesn't afraid of anything. lol

 

[Grunt]

Because the competetive fighting game community values gameplay over balance.

Unless you're SRK.

 

[IrArby]

I hope that you are being sarcastic. Because the competetive fighting game community values gameplay over balance. Melee and Marvel vs. Capcom are prime examples of this. Besides, items make Brawl MORE unbalanced.

Then again, civility from all of the posters on Smashboards is too much of an aggrieving expectation to force on people.

Spoiler

Unless your Yuna. Eh supports draconian modding of stupidity and doesn't afraid of anything. lol

Yes I was definitely being sarcastic and I even referenced Ken's loss at Evo with items to that 14 year old. I thought it was kinda obvious honestly.

 

[Yuna]

im sure some people have won smaller tournaments as other characters

Smaller, local tournaments are won by ****ty characters all the time. Why? Because the talent pool is pretty limited at smaller, local tournaments. They do not have that many good players. So if the best player at hand just happens to be using a Low Tier and the skill gap is large enough between them and whatever players are 2nd best and so on (or if all of the good players just happen to be wielding low tiers or if the other good players just unfamiliar with the match-ups, and so on and so on), the low tiers can win.

Since when is this Brawl-specific?

The fact that maybe some Marios and Luigis somewhere are able to win their local biweeklies or whatever mean squat when those same Marios and Luigis lose badly whenever they go up against other players in larger tournaments. If they're so viable, why haven't the best Luigi and Mario players in the world been able to do well as them?

Where's your proof of that? Doing well at local tournaments against meager opposition means nothing.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Brawl is in no way more balanced than Melee.

People are under the impression that Brawl is balanced because they apparently suck less at it at a conventional/casual level. Then again, Brawl has made everyone suck, so therefore it's balanced to the untrained eye.

Therefore, Melee>Brawl<Melee

Yup, that just happened.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Smaller, local tournaments are won by ****ty characters all the time. Why? Because the talent pool is pretty limited at smaller, local tournaments. They do not have that many good players. So if the best player at hand just happens to be using a Low Tier and the skill gap is large enough between them and whatever players are 2nd best and so on (or if all of the good players just happen to be wielding low tiers or if the other good players just unfamiliar with the match-ups, and so on and so on), the low tiers can win.

Since when is this Brawl-specific?

The fact that maybe some Marios and Luigis somewhere are able to win their local biweeklies or whatever mean squat when those same Marios and Luigis lose badly whenever they go up against other players in larger tournaments. If they're so viable, why haven't the best Luigi and Mario players in the world been able to do well as them?

Where's your proof of that? Doing well at local tournaments against meager opposition means nothing.

its not just brawl specific i know that, i was replying to the person above me. I even said after that at larger tournaments you probably won't see them around that much outside of maybe the first rounds especially if DDD infinite is allowed. i didn't say doing well at local tournaments means doing better in something like national tournaments.

 

[Fletch]

Brawl is in no way more balanced than Melee.

People are under the impression that Brawl is balanced because they apparently suck less at it at a conventional/casual level. Then again, Brawl has made everyone suck, so therefore it's balanced to the untrained eye.

Therefore, Melee>Brawl<Melee

Yup, that just happened.

I'm sigging this.

 

[Tianxiazhai]

ggnore, =DD

 

[Kamikaze*]

No. To many weird chars that you have to adapt to and to many impossible matchups (dk v ddd lol).

Plus brawl has MK.