Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[RDK]

Not only did he quote more tournaments when he was asked, but anyone familiar with the competitive scene of either game can tell you that this is the case. Mostly top tiers, with some high/uppermid tiers placing.

Yeah, he quoted more 3S tournament placings. Unless I overlooked, I didn't see any more Melee results except for the single example of Mango winning with a Jigglypuff. Definetely varied.

Again: tournament results mean absolutely nothing without a context, and in that case have no bearing on game balance.

Vader and Yoda are both mid tier at best. Yoda is supposedly a valid counterpick for one of the high tiers, but that's speculation. So far, I've seen two reasons for them to be banned:

1. People have to pay 5$ for the one they don't have, so they still kind of console-exclusive, since some people don't want to shell out the whopping sum of five dollars, and still others don't have the means to do so.

2. Yoda has wierd hitboxes that cause some horizontal attacks to whiff. This is, of course, completely remedied by just using low-mid attacks, and doesn't at all break the character, but some people like to complain, I guess.

Cervantes, Algol, Ivy, and Yoshimitsu are arguably top tier. X, Astaroth, Raph, and Siegfried are all either upper-mid or mid depending on whom you ask. Lizardman is solid mid.

Other common lower-mid characters include Yunsung, Nightmare, Rock, Darth Vader, Tira, & Maxi. Some argue that Maxi belongs on the bottom.

It's really no debate that Yoda, Zasalamel, and Mina are the worst characters in the game.

Keep in mind that a serious tier list won't come out for months. It's already obvious that the Brawl TL 1.0 is an enormous joke, so this is pure speculation at this point.

 

[pure_awesome]

]Yeah, he quoted more 3S tournament placings. Unless I overlooked, I didn't see any more Melee results except for the single example of Mango winning with a Jigglypuff. Definetely varied.

He's not bringing it up to say "Hey look, Jiggs won! Lol varied!" He's saying look at ALL the placers. Ignore the little number in front of their names and look at all the top 8. Mostly top tier, with some high.

It's the same for most major Melee tournaments. Marth, the Spacies, and Sheik rock the joint, and a few high tiers place. Anyone can tell you that.

Same with Third Strike. Ken, Chun-Li, and Yun kick everyone's face off, and you'll see some Makoto and maybe a Dudley.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Viva La Smashtaclysm

1st - Azen (Marth/Captain Falcon/Peach/Sheik/Link)
2nd - Chudat (Ice Climbers/Pikachu/YLink)
3rd - KDJ (Fox/Marth/Sheik)
4th - M2K (Marth)
5th - Drephen (Sheik)
5th - PC Chris (Fox)
7th - Chillin (Fox)
7th - Darc (Jigglypuff)

Super Champ Combo

1st - Mew2king (Marth/Fox)
2nd - PC Chris (Fox/Falco)
3rd - Mango (Jigglypuff)
4th - Cort (Peach)
5th - Wobbles (Ice Climbers/Sheik)
5th - Chu (Ice Climbers/Pikachu)
7th - Forward (Falco)
7th - Ken (Marth/Luigi)

OC3

1st - PC Chris (Fox)
2nd - M2K (Marth)
3rd - Chudat (Ice Climbers)
4th - Ken (Marth)
5th - King (Jigglypuff)
5th - Drephen (Sheik)
7th - Vidjo (Peach)
7th - Silent Wolf (Fox/Falco)

Happy? Probably not. I suppose I could also cherrypick Pound 2 where Chudat took first over M2K and Jiano came in third.

 

[RDK]

He's not bringing it up to say "Hey look, Jiggs won! Lol varied!" He's saying look at ALL the placers. Ignore the little number in front of their names and look at all the top 8. Mostly top tier, with some high.

It's the same for most major Melee tournaments. Marth, the Spacies, and Sheik rock the joint, and a few high tiers place. Anyone can tell you that.

Same with Third Strike. Ken, Chun-Li, and Yun kick everyone's face off, and you'll see some Makoto and maybe a Dudley.

My original point was that he's insane if he thinks that Melee or Brawl are more balanced than any given Capcom game that's played competitively nowadays. This includes SF2T, which we've already been over, as well as HD Remix which is relatively balanced, 3S which is about as balanced as Melee, etc.

All of this, not to mention any of the CvS or SF Alphas. He's taking 3S vs. Melee exclusively and trying to argue against my point, and still failing.

 

[pure_awesome]

My original point was that he's insane if he thinks that Melee or Brawl are more balanced than any given Capcom game that's played competitively nowadays. This includes SF2T, which we've already been over

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.

And yes, we did go over it. By proving it was imbalanced. I believe the last posts on the topic were mine and Dreamer's, saying:

You also said that "you're still an idiot if you think Melee and Brawl are more balanced than any given Capcom game that's actually played competitively". So yeah, one game.

As for whether or not O. Sagat is overpowered... I mean, he is. There's no way around it. His fireballs (insanely fast and with little recovery time) alone give top players conniptions, and his ridiculous damage, ridiculous speed, one-hit uppercut deals with anyone in close, along with aerial approaches. The only characters than come close to his level are Boxer and Sim, but they at least have flaws. Half the cast can barely touch O.Sagat. Not figuratively, I mean they literally can't hit him because they can't get past the iron man defense.



Actually, Akuma is hard banned in most regions. But he's still part of the game. He still has to be considered when you're talking about whether or not the game is balanced. It's how he got banned in the first place, because he unbalanced the game.

Anyway, the game without Akuma is most certainly not balanced. Match-ups like Honda vers anyone with a fireball (save for Sim) or Cammy vers Claw are just stupidly one-sided and make you wonder if the game was even play-tested for high-level use at all.



Anyone compared to Zangief is bad.

and

As for Super Turbo, well, why take my word for it when I can just quote one of the top Super Turbo players in the United States?

"Most characters in [Super Turbo] cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is “broken” in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since."

Not even Brawl has anything this bad, since tournaments don't even boil down to Metaknight vs. Metaknight only. Melee has nothing even close to this.

"Even if [Old Sagat] is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable."

All of this, not to mention any of the CvS or SF Alphas. He's taking 3S vs. Melee exclusively and trying to argue against my point, and still failing.

I think he's doing a fairly good job, actually. This whole tournament results thing proved that the two metagames are, at the very least, comparable. But Third Strike only achieved that by banning a character in the first place. By logical deduction, that means the game is less balanced.

There's also the little problem of Marvel vs Capcom, which is just hilariously unbalanced, and there's no way anyone can make a case for Melee or Brawl not being more balanced than it is.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

My original point was that he's insane if he thinks that Melee or Brawl are more balanced than any given Capcom game that's played competitively nowadays. This includes SF2T, which we've already been over, as well as HD Remix which is relatively balanced, 3S which is about as balanced as Melee, etc.

All of this, not to mention any of the CvS or SF Alphas. He's taking 3S vs. Melee exclusively and trying to argue against my point, and still failing.

That's just it; I NEVER took 3S exclusively against Melee. I'm taking ST, 3S, CvS2 and Marvel against Melee and Brawl. It's hilarious how you said "not to mention any CvS" when I mentioned CvS2 several times (in nearly every post I made in fact) and even mentioned Alpha 3 once despite it not really being a comtemporary competitive Street Fighter game. How's the trolling going?

My point is that you're wrong and that you don't know what you're talking about. My point is that the Capcom games that are played nowadays are at least as unbalanced as Melee and Brawl. My point is that we have testimony from one of the best ST players in the United States saying that the best character in ST makes every single other character unviable and that the second best character makes about half of the other characters unviable. You're insane if you think either game is as unbalanced as Marvel, and anyone even remotely familiar with the game won't even try to argue against that.

 

[Yuna]

HA.

And Yoda and Vader are apparently still banned, albeit for stupid reasons seeing as how they're not console-exclusive. Woot woot for SRK.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=167993

Did I not call it?

And I quote:
I think they're still banned (for stupid reasons).

I haven't opened SC4; do horizontal attacks hit Yoda?

No. And neither do grabs (unless they are low? Dunno, I've never played against Yoda (because he is banned)).

...

...

Are you kidding me or are you just trying to be an ******* now?

Did you read? Let me quote:

Are you illiterate or just trying to be an <insert random expletive here>?

What part of it is only one tournament was confusing for you?

I was simply comparing the character variety among Top 8 finishers of the two games. Compare these top results side by side, and the character variety is roughly the same. It has mostly top tiers, with a few mid and upper mid tiers placing. If I pull out more top 8 results from both games this will remain the case.

One tournament.

I just TL;DR:ed the rest because it's probably just more crap about how one tournament proves anything.

Random results.

I'm seeing tons of Top Tiers + upper High Tier and then Chu Dat and Azen in a corner there.

Chu Dat never uses Young Link against really good player. Because Young Link ain't that good. Chu Dat is just Chu Dat. He friggin' uses Brawl Peach in tournaments. But, he doesn't pull the super lower tiers out for important matches... and even he can't win major tournaments as low tiers.

So it's basically Top Tiers + The upper High Tiers + Chu Dat and Azen. Wow, so it's just the Top 4 + a Peach or two + Chu Dat and Azen beating the **** out of people since they're just that good.

Come back with those results as if they meant anything when anyone besides Chu Dat or Azen come even close to placing as well in major tournaments of the same caliber with those characters.

 

[clowsui]

Just a note:

Azen uses Brawl Peach in tournies

Chu uses Kirby.

 

[pure_awesome]

So it's basically Top Tiers + The upper High Tiers + Chu Dat and Azen. Wow, so it's just the Top 4 + a Peach or two + Chu Dat and Azen beating the **** out of people since they're just that good.

...you know you just agreed with Dreamer, right?

It has mostly top tiers, with a few mid and upper mid tiers placing.

 

[Yuna]

...you know you just agreed with Dreamer, right?

I saw Urien in those EVO2Kx results. You know what tier he's in? Middle Tier (a.k.a. C tier, a.k.a. the, what, 7th "best" character in the game out of only 19 characters). Akuma is Middle Tier as well. There was even a Necro in there.

So his two tournament result sheets proved nothing. He just proved that 3S, too, has lower tiers win... by more players than the world's best Ice Climber and the world's best Random BS player (Azen), who happen to be the only people capable of placing that high with lower tiered characters than High.

So, really, Dreamer proved nothing. If anything, he only proved that both games occasionally have lower tiered characters make it far through brilliant play by some of the world's best players. Yippie.

 

[rehab]

-Chudat used Pikachu against Azen's Falcon sometime, but who cares

-What is even the argument here? Dreamer gave a couple of large tournament events from melee and 3S, noting similar results in terms of top tiers winning and high tiers placing in both games, plus pound 3. Some amount of high tiers place, while smaller amounts of top tiers win, in like everything mentioned, which suggests that at least melee is comparably balanced to multiple games mentioned, while maybe not all of them. What is anybody's point?

note PA hadn't posted before I started this

 

[RDK]

That's just it; I NEVER took 3S exclusively against Melee. I'm taking ST, 3S, CvS2 and Marvel against Melee and Brawl. It's hilarious how you said "not to mention any CvS" when I mentioned CvS2 several times (in nearly every post I made in fact) and even mentioned Alpha 3 once despite it not really being a comtemporary competitive Street Fighter game. How's the trolling going?

My point is that you're wrong and that you don't know what you're talking about. My point is that the Capcom games that are played nowadays are at least as unbalanced as Melee and Brawl. My point is that we have testimony from one of the best ST players in the United States saying that the best character in ST makes every single other character unviable and that the second best character makes about half of the other characters unviable. You're insane if you think either game is as unbalanced as Marvel, and anyone even remotely familiar with the game won't even try to argue against that.

We've already been over this, I don't know, how many times? No **** Akuma makes all the other characters unviable. He's banned for a reason, moron.

And I never said anything about MvC2; any idiot with half a brain knows how imbalanced that game is. Is this seriously the best you have? My original point was that Melee and Brawl aren't truly any more balanced than any given Capcom game that's played competitively nowadays. Marvel is a non-issue. The point still stands.

It's the Spacies, Marth, and Sheik for Melee and Yun, Chun-Li, and sometimes Makoto and Ken for 3S.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I just TL;DR:ed the rest because it's probably just more crap about how one tournament proves anything.

It's good to know you don't even read stuff that isn't even that long. It was actually about how many tournaments will show the same trend of mostly top tiers with a few non top tiers placing.

I'm seeing tons of Top Tiers + upper High Tier and then Chu Dat and Azen in a corner there.

I don't consider first and second as a "corner."

Chu Dat is just Chu Dat.

Yeah, This is true.

Because Young Link ain't that good.

This is true.

Chu Dat never uses Young Link against really good player.

This is not. But I'll forgive you since I know you're from some other country.

So it's basically Top Tiers + The upper High Tiers + Chu Dat and Azen. Wow, so it's just the Top 4 + a Peach or two + Chu Dat and Azen beating the **** out of people since they're just that good.

Exactly what I mean by variety comparable to 3S results.

Come back with those results as if they meant anything when anyone besides Chu Dat or Azen come even close to placing as well in major tournaments of the same caliber with those characters.

And what about Wobbles, Darc and King? Do they not count just because you said so? The point is to show what the character variety is among top 8 finishers, something you insist on either ignoring or claiming is not my point.

I saw Urien in those EVO2Kx results. You know what tier he's in? Middle Tier (a.k.a. C tier, a.k.a. the, what, 7th "best" character in the game out of only 19 characters). Akuma is Middle Tier as well. There was even a Necro in there.

So his two tournament result sheets proved nothing. He just proved that 3S, too, has lower tiers win... by more players than the world's best Ice Climber and the world's best Random BS player (Azen), who happen to be the only people capable of placing that high with lower tiered characters than High.

So, really, Dreamer proved nothing. If anything, he only proved that both games occasionally have lower tiered characters make it far through brilliant play by some of the world's best players. Yippie.

This criticism is disingenuous and you know it. You know what tier Jigglypuff was in at the time of all those tournaments? Middle tier. How about all those tournament placings I didn't list with Hugs finishing top 8 as Samus? Middle tier. We even have a Pikachu in there.

We've already been over this, I don't know, how many times? No **** Akuma makes all the other characters unviable. He's banned for a reason, moron.

And I never said anything about MvC2; any idiot with half a brain knows how imbalanced that game is. Is this seriously the best you have? My original point was that Melee and Brawl aren't truly any more balanced than any given Capcom game that's played competitively nowadays. Marvel is a non-issue. The point still stands.

It's the Spacies, Marth, and Sheik for Melee and Yun, Chun-Li, and sometimes Makoto and Ken for 3S.

You're absurd.

Yeah, we know Akuma is banned. Melee doesn't have any balance issues anywhere near as severe as this. It only has balance issues as severe as Old Sagat. Brawl comes a little closer.

I said something about MvC2. It's a good thing we agree how unbalanced this game is. But saying it's a non-issue is flat out wrong. In the United States, it is the premier competitive Capcom fighter. And when I saying "Capcom games are not balanced," it is included, unless we pretend the United States doesn't exist. Of the four Capcom games that have been on Evo's lineup for the past 7 years, it is probably the only one that will remain on its lineup in 2009.

 

[Yuna]

It's good to know you don't even read stuff that isn't even that long. It was actually about how many tournaments will show the same trend of mostly top tiers with a few non top tiers placing.

You know, like Melee, right?

I don't consider first and second as a "corner."

They are Azen and Chu Dat. How many people have ever made it that far at a major tournament wielding the same characters vs. the gazillions making it as far wielding the Tops and Highs (I'm employing your own logic against you here).

This is not. But I'll forgive you since I know you're from some other country.

Who has he played and won against that can be considered a "really good player"?

Exactly what I mean by variety comparable to 3S results.

And what about Wobbles, Darc and King?

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of how Azen and Chu Dat randomly use Jigglypuff now (because AFAIK, Darc and King play Jigglypuff).

Well, we had Akuma, Urien and Necro place in the Top of EVO. Those are pretty much on the same place as Jiggs (actually, possibly lower down) relatively speaking since 3S only has 19 characters while Melee had 27

So, yeah, you just proved both games are equally balanced, kinda?

 

[pure_awesome]

We've already been over this, I don't know, how many times? No **** Akuma makes all the other characters unviable. He's banned for a reason, moron.

Right. Because he makes the game imbalanced. Hence, the game is imbalanced, because Akuma is there. Also, O.Sagat.

And I never said anything about MvC2; any idiot with half a brain knows how imbalanced that game is. Is this seriously the best you have? My original point was that Melee and Brawl aren't truly any more balanced than any given Capcom game that's played competitively nowadays. Marvel is a non-issue. The point still stands.

Marvel is a Capcom game, and is played competitively right now. So... uh... yeah.

It's the Spacies, Marth, and Sheik for Melee and Yun, Chun-Li, and sometimes Makoto and Ken for 3S.

Again, right. But 3S only achieved this balance by banning a character in the first place. So logically, Melee is the inherently more balanced game, see?

 

[Zeallyx]

Is Brawl more balanced than melee?

NO

falcon vs mk is ridiculous

 

[pure_awesome]

Is Brawl more balanced than melee?

NO

falcon vs mk is ridiculous

Bowser vs Sheik says hi.

Now go play with your auto-cancelled knee to trip combos.


Falcon vs MK isn't even the worst match-up in the game... why would you bring that up?

 

[RDK]

Right. Because he makes the game imbalanced. Hence, the game is imbalanced, because Akuma is there. Also, O.Sagat.

Again, right. But 3S only achieved this balance by banning a character in the first place. So logically, Melee is the inherently more balanced game, see?

I assumed when the phrase "played competitively" entered into the discussion, logically it was okay to take the games in their competitive form instead of as they are. This means with Akuma and the 3S characters banned. Competitively, they garnered a ban because they overcentralized gameplay.

Honestly, he's arguing a moot point and just pulling out biased, random tournament results to try and justify his point. Azen is Azen.

 

[Zeallyx]

Bowser vs Sheik says hi.

Now go play with your auto-cancelled knee to trip combos.

wanna take this outside kind sir?

Edit: it's arguably falcon's worst matchup, thats why

 

[Yuna]

Again, right. But 3S only achieved this balance by banning a character in the first place. So logically, Melee is the inherently more balanced game, see?

You never answered this question (and if it wasn't you I originally asked this question, then just answer it anyway):
Was Gill banned merely because he was a boss-character not available in the arcade or did he actually imbalance the game as well?

If he didn't imbalance the game and over-centralize it around himself, then his banning has absolutely nothing to do with the perceived imbalance of the game. If you're gonna use this as an argument, be prepared to answer the logical questions that followed!

 

[Vulcan55]

Again, right. But 3S only achieved this balance by banning a character in the first place. So logically, Melee is the inherently more balanced game, see?

I think you mean ST?
Nobody is banned in 3S
EDIT: Forgot about Gill

 

[pure_awesome]

I assumed when the phrase "played competitively" entered into the discussion, logically it was okay to take the games in their competitive form instead of as they are. This means with Akuma and the 3S characters banned. Competitively, they garnered a ban because they overcentralized gameplay.

Right... overcentralization caused by the fact that they were so much better, they imbalanced the game.

The original "competitive form" of SSF2T had Akuma not banned. He was just banned very, very quickly because he ruined it.

Honestly, he's arguing a moot point and just pulling out biased, random tournament results to try and justify his point. Azen is Azen.

They aren't biased, or random. Even if they were, any high-level player from either community could tell you that those results are indicative of most tourneys.

 

[pure_awesome]

You never answered this question (and if it wasn't you I originally asked this question, then just answer it anyway):
Was Gill banned merely because he was a boss-character not available in the arcade or did he actually imbalance the game as well?!

Nah, Gill was just crazy good. He imbalanced the game like a fat kid on a see-saw.

The question was originally directed at someone else. I probably just should have answered it anyway, in hindsight.

 

[Zeallyx]

right.
Then what is the worst matchup in brawl?

 

[Yuna]

Right... overcentralization caused by the fact that they were so much better, they imbalanced the game.

Does Gill imabalance the game? Answer the question straight on. Do you have proof of this?

The original "competitive form" of SSF2T had Akuma not banned. He was just banned very, very quickly because he ruined it.

Actually, Akuma wasn't banned very, very quickly IIRC. Also, stop strawmanning. This is what you said:
"Again, right. But 3S only achieved this balance by banning a character in the first place. So logically, Melee is the inherently more balanced game, see?"

Nobody was contesting Akuma's ban. Everybody knows why Akuma was banned. Answer the **** question.

Does Gill actually over-centralize the game and/or imbalance it severely or was he merely banned because he was a boss character? Gill... in 3S (because you used that as an argument yourself!), not Akuma in SSFT2.

What, did you think I wouldn't catch you strawmanning yourself?

They aren't biased, or random. Even if they were, any high-level player from either community could tell you that those results are indicative of most tourneys.

No they're not. We do not have Jigglypuffs randomly place Top 8 at most tournaments. And only the tournaments Chu goes do has ICs place high and Azen is the only one repping the Mid to Lowish Tiers.

Those are indicative of Azen's and Chu's skills, not of a pattern among the lower tiered characters.

 

[brinboy789]

right.
Then what is the worst matchup in brawl?

D3 vs DK
MK vs Falcon
G&W vs Jiggs

the list goes on...

 

[Yuna]

Nah, Gill was just crazy good. He imbalanced the game like a fat kid on a see-saw.

The question was originally directed at someone else. I probably just should have answered it anyway, in hindsight.

Ah, but you see, now that I actually have the answer, I can tell you that it doesn't matter!

Because Gill was never intended to be played Competitively anyway. Capcom knew how Competitive SF works. Capcom actually hires some of the best SF players in the world to beta test their games and stuff, so it's not like they're Sakurai and just winging it.

Capcom knew that over-powered BS doesn't fly. Gill in 3S is most probably just the exact same character as the final boss. Final Bosses are supposed to be highly imbalanced and break the game. Gill is an extra unlockable character just there for ****s and laughs.

Capcom knew he would never be allowed in tournaments when they designed him pursely because he was a console-only character (AFAIK), so they already knew he wouldn't be used in Competitive gaming.

Gill was never intended to be played in Competitive gaming. He was designed as an extra for ****s and giggles. He didn't and was never intended to affect the metagame of Competitive 3S.

 

[Zeallyx]

D3 vs DK
MK vs Falcon
G&W vs Jiggs

the list goes on...

My point exactly.
Pure_awesome, thats why I brought it up.

 

[RDK]

Right... overcentralization caused by the fact that they were so much better, they imbalanced the game.

The original "competitive form" of SSF2T had Akuma not banned. He was just banned very, very quickly because he ruined it.



They aren't biased, or random. Even if they were, any high-level player from either community could tell you that those results are indicative of most tourneys.

Jigglypuff placing top 8 is indicative of most tournament results? HA.

In any case, I'd like Dreamer to actually enter into the conversation again and defend his untenable position instead of letting other, more able people debate for him.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

You know, like Melee, right?

Yes.

Who has he played and won against that can be considered a "really good player"?

Ken, Bum, maybe others, but I haven't gone to every tournament Chudat has attended. Yeah, he lost against them, but then again, that wasn't your original point. He uses Pikachu more often than Young Link, but he has still used them both against "really good players" in serious matches.

So, yeah, you just proved both games are equally balanced, kinda?

Yeah, my original point was that Capcom games are as unbalanced or worse. This fits the former. I mostly refer to Marvel when I speak of Capcom games that are more unbalanced, but also ST to a lesser extent.

 

[Yuna]

Ken, Bum, maybe others, but I haven't gone to every tournament Chudat has attended. Yeah, he lost against them, but then again, that wasn't your original point. He uses Pikachu more often than Young Link, but he has still used them both against "really good players" in serious matches.

Fine, I asked the wrong question.

But if he doesn't win as them against really good people, then it clearly doesn't matter that he can win as them against not-so-good people, right? Thus, the names Pikachu and Young Link and whatnot do not belong next to his name when mentioning people placing high as said characters because he doesn't place high as them, he places high as IC's. He just happens to play them on the way there.

Yeah, my original point was that Capcom games are as unbalanced or worse. This fits the former. I mostly refer to Marvel when I speak of Capcom games that are more unbalanced, but also ST to a lesser extent.

Nobody has ever argued that the Marvel games are balanced. They pretty much just winged it and hoped for the best or some crazy **** like that for those games. I mean, come on. Just compare Megaman to Storm or something.

 

[pure_awesome]

Jigglypuff placing top 8 is indicative of most tournament results? HA.

No they're not. We do not have Jigglypuffs randomly place Top 8 at most tournaments. And only the tournaments Chu goes do has ICs place high and Azen is the only one repping the Mid to Lowish Tiers.

Those are indicative of Azen's and Chu's skills, not of a pattern among the lower tiered characters.

Exactly. And in 3S, we don't have Akuma's randomly placing Top 8 either. Hence, the ultimate point, which I thought we all agreed on:
In Melee, the complete tourney scene is, for the most part: Marth, Spacies, Sheik, and a few other characters here and there.
In 3S, Ken, Yun, Chun-Li, Makoto, and a few other characters here and there.


As for the Gill thing... that's pure speculation.

My point exactly.
Pure_awesome, thats why I brought it up.

Well if BRINBOY says it, it must be true.
Worst match-up? DDD vs Samus, Fox vs Pika.

Nobody has ever argued that the Marvel games are balanced. They pretty much just winged it and hoped for the best or some crazy **** like that for those games. I mean, come on. Just compare Megaman to Storm or something.

To be fair, RDK was the one that said that any given Capcom game (which one would assume includes Marvel) was more balanced than Melee/Brawl.

Poor Megaman.

 

[Yuna]

As for the Gill thing... that's pure speculation.

Yes, let's assume Capcom are total idiots and just created a totally imbalanced unlockable boss character and intended for it to be allowed in tournament play, despite having some of the best SF fighters beta testing the game for them.

Do you seriously think none of the beta testers went "Hey, Gill's too good!"? And if they did, why is he still unlockable? That's right, because they knew he'd be banned.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

The answer to the Gill question is both.

I think it's worth putting Pikachu next to his name considering that's who he played in Grand Finals and Winners Finals of that particularly tournament. If it should be removed, then so should Urien and Necro from the 3S results previously listed.

 

[Zeallyx]

you are kidding right? (directed@pure_awesome)

 

[RDK]

To be fair, RDK was the one that said that any given Capcom game (which one would assume includes Marvel) was more balanced than Melee/Brawl.

Poor Megaman.

To any normal person, Marvel being horribly unbalanced beyond reason should go without saying.

Let me revise my statement so even more panties don't become twisted any further. "Melee and Brawl aren't any more balanced than any given Capcom game, barring MvC2 which any idiot can see is ridiculously imbalanced.

Happy?

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Almost. It comes pretty close to my original claim that Capcom games are at least as unbalanced as Melee and Brawl, but including Marvel.

 

[Yuna]

I think it's worth putting Pikachu next to his name considering that's who he played in Grand Finals and Winners Finals of that particularly tournament. If it should be removed, then so should Urien and Necro from the 3S results previously listed.

Great. Fine. But where would we draw the line of when to accept lower tiered characters in tournament results as proof of balance? Only if it's in the grand finals? Loser's finals? Winner's finals? Winner's semi?

We clearly have to draw the line somewhere. Me using Zelda (in Melee) and winning as her in the very earliest rounds of tournaments means jack squat and proves nothing other than that my opponents for those sets were pretty bad.

 

[pure_awesome]

@Yuna: Assuming you're right, Capcom's intentions don't actually change the fact that Gill was in the game, and, for a brief period of time, used in the competitive community. Whatever Capcom's decision about him was, he's still part of the game, and must be considered when discussing the game's balance.

Happy?

Slightly. It's still wrong, given what we've been saying about SSF2T (and 3S, to a lesser extent), but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

you are kidding right? (directed@pure_awesome)

That's funny.

 

[Dragoomba]

In my opinion... Brawl is more balanced.

Melee Chars placing well in tournies: Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, Falcon, Jiggly, Peach, IC's, Ganon
Brawl Chars placing well in tournies: Meta, Snake, G&W, D3, Marth, Falco, Wario, ROB, Lucario, DK, Diddy, Peach, Pit, Kirby, IC's, Pikachu, TL, Olimar, Ness(?)

These are from my observations, however.