Is it possible Sakurai is actually saving strong first party additions?

[Guynamednelson]

So far Assist Trophies have appeared in 3/5 of the Smash games, and in not a single one has an AT also appeared as a fighter.

Well yeah, because Brawl couldn't have DLC and we don't know for sure what most of Ultimate's DLC is. People also exaggerate how many resources ATs take up, with the veteran ones having recycled Smash 4 models and movesets which scream "I was on a console with a tiny amount of RAM." If the work put into ATs was so important that they can't be hidden we wouldn't have many, many cases in which the pool the game will pull from.

Furthermore, "will focus more on giving us as unique and original content as possible" can be covered by AT characters being promoted with unique movesets.

 

[IanTheGamer]

Also, the hype generated by adding in long time popular requests that haven't already been added as playable fighters, (such as Krystal, who was a popular request even pre Ultimate), will help keep Ultimate relevant for a longer period

 

[ProfPeanut]

Also, the hype generated by adding in long time popular requests that haven't already been added as playable fighters, (such as Krystal, who was a popular request even pre Ultimate), will help keep Ultimate relevant for a longer period

A good metagame keeps a game relevant, not character reveals. No character pick can actually help a game build that.

At any rate, Sakurai's been on record multiple times saying that he treats every Smash game like it's the last one. Whether another Smash gets developed years later is completely irrelevant - Sakurai always makes the most of what he has, and delivers as best as he can, and it's always shown in his work. If we don't get more characters than what we have, then that is simply as many as they could give us.

Characters get out-prioritized by others - it happens all the time, and there's little special about how Ultimate did it. Trying to recontextualize them as "hidden aces" for the next game, though, feels like some really slimy reinterpretation of things, as if asserting that they're "100% playable and Sakurai-chosen, just wait until the next Smash game!" It's like trying to give characters the esteem of playability even when they haven't gotten it yet, or arguing that Sakurai obviously considers such-and-so to be shoe-ins for the next sequel (despite having no real evidence for the claim).

You know what's the best way to know if Sakurai thinks a character should be playable? It's when they're confirmed for Smash. After that is whether he goes on record about any characters that he thinks could be in Smash (which is why Geno still has a prayer up to now.) And after that? Nothing but pure speculation on our parts.

 

[pkivaness]

Well, I'll throw in my two cents on this case:

So far Assist Trophies have appeared in 3/5 of the Smash games, and in not a single one has an AT also appeared as a fighter. Similarly, we went through an extra wave of newcomers in the form of Smash 4 DLC, which also did not include AT's as fighters. And it seems like the direction this wave of DLC is going in will focus more on giving us as unique and original content as possible--which means no redundancies.

Which of my points are you referring to? When I said that a lot of fighters are deconfirmed as AT's, or that there could be more DLC? if so you'd be right, just curious.

Yes, if there's a second (or third, or fourth....) wave of DLC, that woulld be a lot of fighters. But I'm not going to discount the fact that sixteen unused fighter slots were discovered in World of Light, and Joker only takes up 2 (normal costume and school outfit. IIRC having separated renders counts as two slots, so Bowser Jr. counts as 8). And then there's thirty--count 'em, THIRTY--unused slots in the base roster. So it's really hard for me to discount the possibility of a second wave of DLC (that and the fact that such a missed opportunity could prove detrimental).

Sorry that was a mistake of mine.
As for my opinion, If Nintendo (Reggie) themselves said that the next smash fighters would be non-Nintendo characters, with Microsoft being sorta buddy buddy, I think anything could happen, to me since their are XBOX games coming to the switch, the process could be in reverse like with Joker, Persona 5 R and S are coming out for Nintendo Switch, vice versa for maybe a character like CupHead. I don't personally think he's making the cut, but I'm okay with it. I'd rather get surprised, that's just how I am.

 

[Arthur97]

Frankly, I'm not sure Sakurai cares about Nintendo at all anymore.

 

[osby]

Frankly, I'm not sure Sakurai cares about Nintendo at all anymore.

Are you sure? That contradicts with the amount of effort put into Nintendo IPs just this game.

I think people just confuse less proportional care to Nintendo with zero care.

 

[Arthur97]

Are you sure? That contradicts with the amount of effort put into Nintendo IPs just this game.

I think people just confuse less proportional care to Nintendo with zero care.

Third parties on average seem to have more work on the special little touches. Like, pretty much everything about Mega Man being some kind of reference or Joker's end screen.

However, I do think they generally stepped up their game a bit for some of the first parties in Ultimate. Still, he seems to lack enthusiasm for the people paying his bills. He just generally seems more into the third parties. Just look at all the praise he gives some of them in interviews.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Third parties on average seem to have more work on the special little touches. Like, pretty much everything about Mega Man being some kind of reference or Joker's end screen.

However, I do think they generally stepped up their game a bit for some of the first parties in Ultimate. Still, he seems to lack enthusiasm for the people paying his bills. He just generally seems more into the third parties. Just look at all the praise he gives some of them in interviews.

I just don't know what you expect from him with regards to Nintendo related content? So far Nintendo content has dominated every facet of Smash with the singular current exception of Smash 4 DLC newcomers (And even then calling Bayonetta a third party doesn't exactly work the same way as others). That may be repeated again for Smash Ultimate DLC, but it's way too soon to tell. Also, Sakurai has done things like make Palutena's Guidance the primary Easter Egg of conversations for Smash that are distinctly Nintendo and just spent years building all this content. There's been lots of special touches done for first party characters over the 20 years of the series.Kirby being able to replicate every character in the game's standard special and appearance, Pichu hurting itself on electric attacks, Pokemon Trainer consisting of three unique characters packaged in one, Little Mac having the KO move, Bowser Jr. having the Koopalings as alternate costumes, Shulk being able to activate specific buffs, Inkling with special Ink mechanics, just to name a few. And like yeah, Mega Man gets a lot of references, but he's basically the same as King K. Rool which is pulling from a ton of different games to make an interesting move set. There's still clear passion behind everything, but he is starting to run out of more obvious Nintendo picks, which will only worsen as more first parties make it into Smash. And it's pretty reasonable to expect Nintendo to know that as well, so they're likely to continue encouraging third parties when possible.

And I mean, Sakurai is just another person who enjoys playing games. He casts a wide net like quite a few people and wants to talk about the ones he enjoys, so I don't take his third party praise to mean much of anything other than he likes playing games.

 

[Quillion]

Third parties on average seem to have more work on the special little touches. Like, pretty much everything about Mega Man being some kind of reference or Joker's end screen.

However, I do think they generally stepped up their game a bit for some of the first parties in Ultimate. Still, he seems to lack enthusiasm for the people paying his bills. He just generally seems more into the third parties. Just look at all the praise he gives some of them in interviews.

The older characters being left behind in being faithful and creative representations is a legitimate issue, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care about the first party characters.

 

[Arthur97]

The older characters being left behind in being faithful and creative representations is a legitimate issue, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care about the first party characters.

I don't have an issue with the old movesets (usually), but some more extra touches would be nice. I don't want entire movesets to be direct rips or close to it (like Ryu), but some nice nods are nice like DK's fair actually being more like his air attack in DK64 would be nice.

However, the main basis for the stance that he doesn't care much would be how little praise he seems to give to them compared to third parties. Plus, maybe since he pretty much has his pick of the lot with them, he doesn't care much about new choices, and I'm not sure at how good he is at realizing that just because he may not like them or see their potential, that that doesn't mean no one else does.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Well yeah, because Brawl couldn't have DLC and we don't know for sure what most of Ultimate's DLC is. People also exaggerate how many resources ATs take up, with the veteran ones having recycled Smash 4 models and movesets which scream "I was on a console with a tiny amount of RAM." If the work put into ATs was so important that they can't be hidden we wouldn't have many, many cases in which the pool the game will pull from.

Furthermore, "will focus more on giving us as unique and original content as possible" can be covered by AT characters being promoted with unique movesets.

Your point being....?

Sure, Brawl didn't have DLC. That's not my point. My point was that Brawl had a clear distinction between assist trophy and fighter, a distinction that has not been changed in 11 years. It's the one line that has never been crossed. Mii fighters, stage appearances, etc. All have redundancies. Not AT's.

And saying "they can promote them with unique movesets" isn't an argument at all. They can also put Shrek in this game if they want to. They have to have a serious reason to and frankly considering how rushed this game was if they planned on making an AT a fighter they would have been scrapped already and planned as DLC (like Piranha Plant).

Third parties on average seem to have more work on the special little touches. Like, pretty much everything about Mega Man being some kind of reference or Joker's end screen.

However, I do think they generally stepped up their game a bit for some of the first parties in Ultimate. Still, he seems to lack enthusiasm for the people paying his bills. He just generally seems more into the third parties. Just look at all the praise he gives some of them in interviews.

I don't have an issue with the old movesets (usually), but some more extra touches would be nice. I don't want entire movesets to be direct rips or close to it (like Ryu), but some nice nods are nice like DK's fair actually being more like his air attack in DK64 would be nice.

However, the main basis for the stance that he doesn't care much would be how little praise he seems to give to them compared to third parties. Plus, maybe since he pretty much has his pick of the lot with them, he doesn't care much about new choices, and I'm not sure at how good he is at realizing that just because he may not like them or see their potential, that that doesn't mean no one else does.

Ah, I see now.

Just because Sakurai went above and beyond with a couple of fighters to make their fans and long awaited entrance to Smash as happy and epic as possible means he is a control freak and cares little about Nintendo, or he simply doesn't care at all.

Yeah makes sense.
First party newcomers in Ultimate so far: (9)
Third party newcomers in Ultimate so far: (4)
I don't see how Sakurai could pass off as more interested in third parties.
He also doesn't "pretty much has his pick with the lot of them." Most of them were requests from other people.
: Fan demand
: Requested by the creator of MG
: Fan demand
: Fan demand
: Fan demand
: Most popular FF character
: Ballot winner
: Fan demand
: Fan demand
: Fan demand, selected by Nintendo and finally picked by Sakurai

Only 1 third party character (Joker) had their inclusion made partially my Sakurai's pick, and even then Joker was already heavily requested and picked by Nintendo.
Your idea that Sakurai is making personal picks for third party DLC fighters is a lie.
He sees the potential in every fighter he picks. He capitalizes on it. We got two remixes in this game just for King K. Rool (Gangplank Galleon and Crocodile Cacophony). Incineroar and Inkling have never before seen movesets. Ridley takes elements from both his games and his boss/Subspace appearances. So no, he's not ignoring first parties in favor of third parties in the slightest. You lie again.

I just don't think it makes sense to focus on what has been when discussing what could be.
By all accounts, it makes no sense for Toon Link to be a character if he is going to be a stage element. But instead, Alfonso steps in.
Chrom is the worst perpetrator of all- he's a mii costume, a final smash, and an echo of a character to which he has absolutely no relation. How does that make sense?

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me, it just doesnt make any sense to me.
Sure- an AT being a playable could... maybe... be considered redundant, in argument at least. To me, the prevailing argument is that a character being in the game at all was obviously important enough to have included at all.

The Toon Link argument is fair, but that's a stage cameo and not an AT appearence. As for Chrom, remember that he was a last minute inclusion and originally wasn't planned to be in the game, so he's really the exception here.

Sure, mii fighters and other things can be redundant, I understand, but AT's are simply the one line that has never been crossed.

 

[pupNapoleon]

The Toon Link argument is fair, but that's a stage cameo and not an AT appearence. As for Chrom, remember that he was a last minute inclusion and originally wasn't planned to be in the game, so he's really the exception here.

Sure, mii fighters and other things can be redundant, I understand, but AT's are simply the one line that has never been crossed.

It hasn't been crossed... yet.
It never really had a reason to be crossed (given that we only had one round of DLC, which was almost entirely returning veterans).
I think we easily could get an AT as a character- it's basically the 'runners up' for fully playable characters. The logical conclusion is that they were at one point most likely to be characters themselves, at least a bunch of them.

It would almost be odder to me to not get any AT involved.

 

[Xelrog]

"Will never happen because it hasn't happened before" is a non-argument and it's been thrown out the window multiple times over the course of Smash's life. Even if Sakurai himself has said outright that Assist Trophies are deconfirmed as characters (which he hasn't, has he?) that also means nothing. Sakurai statements are gone back on all the time.

Anything could happen at any time and to think otherwise is just ignoring history.

 

[Deleted member]

My hopes for first party picks would easily be Mach Rider, Adeleine and Pauline.

Yes, I know that Pauline appears in New Donk City. But she only does so when you pick Jump Up Super Star as the song, making it a bit easier to pull something similar to Toon Link in the Spirits Tracks stage if she somehow gets in.

 

[SmashChu]

Third parties on average seem to have more work on the special little touches. Like, pretty much everything about Mega Man being some kind of reference or Joker's end screen.

However, I do think they generally stepped up their game a bit for some of the first parties in Ultimate. Still, he seems to lack enthusiasm for the people paying his bills. He just generally seems more into the third parties. Just look at all the praise he gives some of them in interviews.

This has been one of my major criticism of Sakurai for a while and why I think he needs to step back and let someone else take charge.

In general, I think Sakurai too often uses Smash for his own gain. You can see this in Nintendo characters too. Why is Incinaroar in when Decidueye was more popular? "Oh, well I really wanted to work on a wrestling character." Why are there so many Fire Emblem characters? Same thing. He'll always come up with a justification. It's hard to believe he's doing it for fans when it's a game he gushes about. "But Nintendo chose him." It's hard to believe him when he claimed Bayonetta totally won the ballot and we find out later she was added 2 weeks after the ballot started. Sure Sakurai, she won. Whatever you say.

I think Sakurai wants to add guest characters because he wants to work on different series. Remember, he left HAL because he was working on sequel after sequel. So, it seems to me, he uses Smash to work on other series and will turn it into his own personal MUGAN. I think the person making Smash needs to be a huge Nintendo fan and willing to put that first. Ultimate is a weird inbetween game and, as such, the number of Nintendo characters is growing. Ultimate isn't even a year old but we have series like ARMS, Dragalia Lost and Astral Chains not to mention the other characters from existing series. Moreover, Smash will probably have to downsize next time. Fans are going to expect new content and that's not feasible when your trying to port 80 characters over. It's going to have to focus on Nintendo and reduce the number of series, and Sakurai probably isn't the man for the job.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Why is Incinaroar in when Decidueye was more popular? "Oh, well I really wanted to work on a wrestling character."

To be fair, Decidueye lacks popularity in Japan, and most of its Western popularity was just wanting a quota to be filled. It's actually Rowlet that has the supposed popularity Decidueye has, the Smash community just ignores it because they're biased in favor of certain body shapes.

 

[lucasla]

I still think that the current 5 newcomers will be of games to promote games that are coming for the Nintendo Switch. And maybe, a second wave of characters for the next year could be first party additions.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

To be fair, Decidueye lacks popularity in Japan, and most of its Western popularity was just wanting a quota to be filled. It's actually Rowlet that has the supposed popularity Decidueye has, the Smash community just ignores it because they're biased in favor of certain body shapes.

That’s missing the point of the popularity of Pokemon reps being entirely unknown prior to launch of the game when chosen. Incineroar was highlighted as being later than the rest of the roster, Sun and Moon didn’t release until late 2016 and the starters popularity always takes some time to really settle even if there are some general trends on first reveal. Incineroar was almost definitely being worked on by then given how Sakurai does things.

It’s more he just chose the one he was interested in when there wasn’t even a popularity to consider with regards to Pokemon.

And plus, Decidueye really seems to have been vastly overrated in popularity overall. He’s popular, but he’s not made it to Greninja status even or anything like that...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Still, he seems to lack enthusiasm for the people paying his bills.

If they people paying his bills didn't share his enthusiasm, they wouldn't pay his bills.

 

[The DanMan051]

It hasn't been crossed... yet.
It never really had a reason to be crossed (given that we only had one round of DLC, which was almost entirely returning veterans).
I think we easily could get an AT as a character- it's basically the 'runners up' for fully playable characters. The logical conclusion is that they were at one point most likely to be characters themselves, at least a bunch of them.

It would almost be odder to me to not get any AT involved.

In that instance, I think it's more important for people to begin re-evaluating which ATs would be more likely to get promoted.
The likes of Lyn, Waluigi, Bomberman... or more along the lines of Alucard, Shadow, and Zero?

 

[pupNapoleon]

In that instance, I think it's more important for people to begin re-evaluating which ATs would be more likely to get promoted.
The likes of Lyn, Waluigi, Bomberman... or more along the lines of Alucard, Shadow, and Zero?

If you mean- unique characters or clones/echoes/semiclones, sure--
but as far as specific characters, you know everyone will tend to pick the ones they want.

Which is why, obviously, Bomberman and Isaac would be the two to get in.

 

[Quillion]

I still think the only characters that are being deliberately saved are the ones that were "too new". Everyone else requires tangible demand to be considered.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I still think the only characters that are being deliberately saved are the ones that were "too new". Everyone else requires tangible demand to be considered.

I think it stands to reason that we may have had a character or two delayed for technical or financial reasons
-either the company had stipulations that required them to be DLC
-or they couldnt successfully be completed by the launch

 

[Wunderwaft]

You guys need to remember that the next Smash game is coming out in like what, 10 years? That's a pretty long time folks, I doubt Sakurai thought that far ahead and predicted how the gaming landscape would look like in 10 years.
Sakurai has gone on record to say that he treats every Smash game as his last, which is why he puts a lot of effort into each game and adds as much content as possible. When Brawl came out people said the popular fan favorites like Krystal, Geno, Isaac etc. were shoe-ins for the next Smash game and Sakurai was saving them for the next game, they have yet to become playable in Smash. The point I'm trying to make is that Sakurai never thinks that far ahead and he usually doesn't save stuff for the next game.

As for the next game, no one knows what might get added. This is arguably going to be the longest wait for the next Smash game yet.

Super Smash Bros came out in 1999
Super Smash Bros Melee came out in 2001
Super Smash Bros Brawl came out in 2008
Super Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS came out in 2014
Super Smash Bros Ultimate came out in 2018

The wait between Sm4sh and Ultimate was four years, that is incredibly short compared to the years of wait for and after Brawl. Each Smash game was released once in every console generation. And considering Nintendo said they planned to support the Switch for 7-10 years, it's gonna take a long time until we see the next Smash game.

 

[lucasla]

You guys need to remember that the next Smash game is coming out in like what, 10 years? That's a pretty long time folks, I doubt Sakurai thought that far ahead and predicted how the gaming landscape would look like in 10 years.
Sakurai has gone on record to say that he treats every Smash game as his last, which is why he puts a lot of effort into each game and adds as much content as possible. When Brawl came out people said the popular fan favorites like Krystal, Geno, Isaac etc. were shoe-ins for the next Smash game and Sakurai was saving them for the next game, they have yet to become playable in Smash. The point I'm trying to make is that Sakurai never thinks that far ahead and he usually doesn't save stuff for the next game.

As for the next game, no one knows what might get added. This is arguably going to be the longest wait for the next Smash game yet.

Super Smash Bros came out in 1999
Super Smash Bros Melee came out in 2001
Super Smash Bros Brawl came out in 2008
Super Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS came out in 2014
Super Smash Bros Ultimate came out in 2018

The wait between Sm4sh and Ultimate was four years, that is incredibly short compared to the years of wait for and after Brawl. Each Smash game was released once in every console generation. And considering Nintendo said they planned to support the Switch for 7-10 years, it's gonna take a long time until we see the next Smash game.

It's a lot of time to add new characters, but this means they have a lot of time to make the experience of Smash better. 7 years is time to make 2 or 3 entire games. They could remake the entire infrastructure of the online service, that is terrible, and they could even create an entire campaign in DLC format like the Splatoon Octo Expansion. If not, after 5 years, we will have the same terrible online experience.

 

[Door Key Pig]

-or they couldnt successfully be completed by the launch

Soooooooooo Piranha Plant, then?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Soooooooooo Piranha Plant, then?

We don't actually know what the case was with Piranha.
Maybe he was not ready.
Maybe he was held back to add a freebie to the pass, when making a full pass was the decision.
Maybe he was seen as a bad marketing move as a second Mario character in the base game.
Who knows.

 

[osby]

The idea that only reason we didn't get some characters is Sakurai saving them for the next game feels like a Smash 4 speculation artifact.

I think most characters didn't make it in simply because they weren't considered "enough" or simply didn't considered at all, not because they were so important that Sakurai had to save them for hype. The whole thing always felt like fanbases trying to prove their characters' worth without any evidence.

 

[pupNapoleon]

The idea that only reason we didn't get some characters is Sakurai saving them for the next game feels like a Smash 4 speculation artifact.

I think most characters didn't make it in simply because they weren't considered "enough" or simply didn't considered at all, not because they were so important that Sakurai had to save them for hype. The whole thing always felt like fanbases trying to prove their characters' worth without any evidence.

This goes back to the idea- it is a shame other games don't go for the 'All Stars' route. I know part of what makes Smash special is how it takes care of the characters, and another is that there arent other games like it. There are more reasons Smash is special, just for the roster and outside of the gameplay, but it is a shame other franchises cannot do so, for the same reason Smash almost couldnt (watering down the nature of the characters, and the game may flop anyway).

Ah well. Morning morning rant over.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I honestly doubt it. There's no real big name left, only Dixie Kong honestly. Who still sort of is lesser important than DK, Diddy and K.Rool despite being a very popular character regardless. DK and Diddy have had way more titles than them, and have been given more love to them by both Nintendo and Rare back in the days. She is in this regard a little bit comparable to Bandana Dee, who is also easily the 4th most likely / important Kirby inclusion but still a league behind what's already in Smash.

Of course Dixie Kong has all the merrits to make a great character. But she's really the top of the basket here, and will likely result to become a Diddy semi-clone because of resources and because it would make a little sense. I love Dixie, I miss her on the roster, but am realistic here.

There's not much left beside her. I love Impa, but her missing out on Breath of the Wild with a huge role as the Sheikah Champion makes her reliant on a new role for inclusion. Skull Kid has popularity, but he doesn't have the sheer iconic status of the Triforce trio, or warrant inclusion because he's a different version of Link or Zelda. Ganon would make the most sense here.. and he's quite overlooked. Ganon's absence isn't felt as much, because Ganondorf is already there and he's way more workable anyway (not for Brawl and Smash 4 though, but you get my point).

And another thing that Ultimate didn't really have is a retro Nintendo newcomer. So take one, or two of them. And that's already something that fills a quota for required Nintendo newcomers.

Of course there's the new kid on the block status, which can be filled with Nintendo LABO and Spring Man from ARMS. And then obviously there's the given Mario, Pokemon, Fire Emblem newcomer, and Xenoblade will probably get either Elma or Rex.

The list is quite stale. But I think / suspect they might go the Piranha Plant-route with adding first party newcomers. Newcomers that are not the most obvious, but still make up for something interessting and are still very recognisable like the infamous Plant.

For example, DKC could add Dixie or Funky as semi-clone or in Funky's case, Echo status. But they could also opt for something different. For example Rambi the rhino, or Cranky as a fully unique newcomer. They don't make as much sense at first, but the gameplay differences would make up for it. Rambi would be another great mobile heavy weight character who charges straight forward ahead to deal great damage, but at the cost of lag, aerial options and recovery. Cranky was probably the most unique helper Kong in Tropical Freeze, and would make for a great niche newcomer due to his legacy as the original Donkey Kong, and having never been absent like Dixie (DKC Returns, DK64) or K.Rool (DKC Returns, Tropical Freeze). Rambi has also been in every game where DK, Diddy and K.Rool have been in, and is the only Animal Buddy who returned for the Retro games and made cameos even in Mario Kart.

I think additions like these, amongst what is actually popular and in demand, would make up for a greater selection of first party additions.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I honestly doubt it. There's no real big name left, only Dixie Kong honestly. Who still sort of is lesser important than DK, Diddy and K.Rool despite being a very popular character regardless. DK and Diddy have had way more titles than them, and have been given more love to them by both Nintendo and Rare back in the days. She is in this regard a little bit comparable to Bandana Dee, who is also easily the 4th most likely / important Kirby inclusion but still a league behind what's already in Smash.

Of course Dixie Kong has all the merrits to make a great character. But she's really the top of the basket here, and will likely result to become a Diddy semi-clone because of resources and because it would make a little sense. I love Dixie, I miss her on the roster, but am realistic here.

There's not much left beside her. I love Impa, but her missing out on Breath of the Wild with a huge role as the Sheikah Champion makes her reliant on a new role for inclusion. Skull Kid has popularity, but he doesn't have the sheer iconic status of the Triforce trio, or warrant inclusion because he's a different version of Link or Zelda. Ganon would make the most sense here.. and he's quite overlooked. Ganon's absence isn't felt as much, because Ganondorf is already there and he's way more workable anyway (not for Brawl and Smash 4 though, but you get my point).

And another thing that Ultimate didn't really have is a retro Nintendo newcomer. So take one, or two of them. And that's already something that fills a quota for required Nintendo newcomers.

Of course there's the new kid on the block status, which can be filled with Nintendo LABO and Spring Man from ARMS. And then obviously there's the given Mario, Pokemon, Fire Emblem newcomer, and Xenoblade will probably get either Elma or Rex.

The list is quite stale. But I think / suspect they might go the Piranha Plant-route with adding first party newcomers. Newcomers that are not the most obvious, but still make up for something interessting and are still very recognisable like the infamous Plant.

For example, DKC could add Dixie or Funky as semi-clone or in Funky's case, Echo status. But they could also opt for something different. For example Rambi the rhino, or Cranky as a fully unique newcomer. They don't make as much sense at first, but the gameplay differences would make up for it. Rambi would be another great mobile heavy weight character who charges straight forward ahead to deal great damage, but at the cost of lag, aerial options and recovery. Cranky was probably the most unique helper Kong in Tropical Freeze, and would make for a great niche newcomer due to his legacy as the original Donkey Kong, and having never been absent like Dixie (DKC Returns, DK64) or K.Rool (DKC Returns, Tropical Freeze). Rambi has also been in every game where DK, Diddy and K.Rool have been in, and is the only Animal Buddy who returned for the Retro games and made cameos even in Mario Kart.

I think additions like these, amongst what is actually popular and in demand, would make up for a greater selection of first party additions.

Would you say there's much left in the way of straight up new first party franchises without a character in Ultimate? I'd like a Rhythm Paradise rep, but beyond that, the "timing issue" of ARMS characters and those deconfirmed by Assist Trophy or Mii costume, what options do we have?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Would you say there's much left in the way of straight up new first party franchises without a character in Ultimate? I'd like a Rhythm Paradise rep, but beyond that, the "timing issue" of ARMS characters and those deconfirmed by Assist Trophy or Mii costume, what options do we have?

For Smash Ultimate? Not really much. Dixie, Isaac and Impa where my choices after K.Rool got confirmed. Outside of them and the other deconfirmed popular picks, there's not much.

Personally am prepared for the 3rd party additions, and try to be optimistic that there's characters I can get excited about, as Banjo or Monster Hunter.

 

[Opossum]

Your point being....?

Sure, Brawl didn't have DLC. That's not my point. My point was that Brawl had a clear distinction between assist trophy and fighter, a distinction that has not been changed in 11 years. It's the one line that has never been crossed. Mii fighters, stage appearances, etc. All have redundancies. Not AT's.

And saying "they can promote them with unique movesets" isn't an argument at all. They can also put Shrek in this game if they want to. They have to have a serious reason to and frankly considering how rushed this game was if they planned on making an AT a fighter they would have been scrapped already and planned as DLC (like Piranha Plant).


Ah, I see now.

Just because Sakurai went above and beyond with a couple of fighters to make their fans and long awaited entrance to Smash as happy and epic as possible means he is a control freak and cares little about Nintendo, or he simply doesn't care at all.

Yeah makes sense.
First party newcomers in Ultimate so far: (9)
Third party newcomers in Ultimate so far: (4)
I don't see how Sakurai could pass off as more interested in third parties.
He also doesn't "pretty much has his pick with the lot of them." Most of them were requests from other people.
: Fan demand
: Requested by the creator of MG
: Fan demand
: Fan demand
: Fan demand
: Most popular FF character
: Ballot winner
: Fan demand
: Fan demand
: Fan demand, selected by Nintendo and finally picked by Sakurai

Only 1 third party character (Joker) had their inclusion made partially my Sakurai's pick, and even then Joker was already heavily requested and picked by Nintendo.
Your idea that Sakurai is making personal picks for third party DLC fighters is a lie.
He sees the potential in every fighter he picks. He capitalizes on it. We got two remixes in this game just for King K. Rool (Gangplank Galleon and Crocodile Cacophony). Incineroar and Inkling have never before seen movesets. Ridley takes elements from both his games and his boss/Subspace appearances. So no, he's not ignoring first parties in favor of third parties in the slightest. You lie again.

The Toon Link argument is fair, but that's a stage cameo and not an AT appearence. As for Chrom, remember that he was a last minute inclusion and originally wasn't planned to be in the game, so he's really the exception here.

Sure, mii fighters and other things can be redundant, I understand, but AT's are simply the one line that has never been crossed.

Don't say "Chrom was a last minute addition" as a fact when there's currently no official statement saying so. There's nothing to indicate that echo fighters were a last minute thing this time around, and even among the echoes, he's one of the ones that the most work was put into, which would go against the notion of him being last minute, if anything.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Don't say "Chrom was a last minute addition" as a fact when there's currently no official statement saying so. There's nothing to indicate that echo fighters were a last minute thing this time around, and even among the echoes, he's one of the ones that the most work was put into, which would go against the notion of him being last minute, if anything.

OK, fair enough. But I'm not going to forget the fact that it took them 4 months to correct Chrom's victory theme. He may have bee last minute, but you're right, there's no official proof.

 

[Opossum]

OK, fair enough. But I'm not going to forget the fact that it took them 4 months to correct Chrom's victory theme. He may have bee last minute, but you're right, there's no official proof.

Yeah, but there are lots of things that still aren't fixed with a lot of characters. For example, Wolf goes into his Brawl idle stance while holding certain items. Some things just slip through.

Plus if we take the Piranha Plant leaker's words to heart, bug fixing was incredibly behind schedule lol.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Would you say there's much left in the way of straight up new first party franchises without a character in Ultimate? I'd like a Rhythm Paradise rep, but beyond that, the "timing issue" of ARMS characters and those deconfirmed by Assist Trophy or Mii costume, what options do we have?

Assist Trophy deconfirmation is a logical fallacy.

 

[Xelrog]

Link is a Mii Costume. Link deconfirmed.

 

[UserKev]

In terms of quality picks, Dixie Kong and Ashley are very "savior" like picks for early reveals. Krystal would be mediocre, like scraping the bottom of the barrel. Skull Kid, Porky and Isaac have established hype while still maintaining that surprise factor. BWD and Toad, while have a unique and exclusive hype, are expected. Even though one of my most wanted reps, I don't know what type of hype Cranky Kong would generate but he'd grow on people while having that surprise factor in his favor. I believe Slippy Toad would do better than Krystal.

 

[PhantomShab]

It's pretty likely that he actually is saving them. After all I'm sure he'd like to have at least 75 assist trophies in the next game.

 

[UserKev]

Massive necro. And boy oh boy did I make some terrible arguments and theories. O_O I do feel like we've reached the end of legacy picks and the rest will be entirely new characters.

Waluigi, Toad, Dixie Kong, Tom Nook, Ashley, Isaac, and Bandana Dee are a given. It does look like Echoes will make ways for the likes of secondary fan favorites that wouldn't otherwise be likely. For Mario, it's time for Birdo. She's the easiest echo. Kamek is a legacy pick and fairly iconic that definitely should be in the running. If you bring up Pokémon or Fire Emblem, you'll definitely solidify how we've reached the end of senior Nintendo options.