Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Matador]

lol, no. That's BoX7 vs ROB 60:40. The rest of us Marios have troubles. You should write a guide, lol.

I don't wanna claim anything about the falco ratio. I've only fought a handful of good ones. Figured I'd go lowest. My point is that it's not a bad match at all. The only ones you'd prolly CP are MK, G&W, Wario and D3.

Edit: I DO like how easily Sonic can set his up, especially because of his mindgames with the turnaround thingy (I dunno the name, but MK can do it too with his Fsmash).

 

[Darknid]

Well, I picked up Luigi to help vs Wario then I discovered Mario is similar but a lot funner. I second the both of them. They help DK out.

Anyways, Mario isn't too shabby vs Wario in my experience. He has similar advantages Luigi has, but he's harder to bait because he's more agile than Luigi and his aerials are faster(except fair and dair which are unique moves that have specific functions)

Those are pretty good credentials for a low tier, either way. With plenty of room to improve, just like Sonic.

 

[Browny]

ugh i said it before...

STOP POSTING MATCHUP RATIOS

THEY MEAN NOTHING

lets get back to REAL discussion now plz

 

[Tenki]

The board is known for being stuffed with *******es who think Sonic is 3rd on the tier list.

no.

This board is known for steak.

Besides, way back when Sonic was actually popular in Brawl, we flamed those useless fanboys away.

what's this? :3
---------------------
on FIHL shenanigans:

I have PT as a pseudo secondary and I use Squirtle's watergun much with some hope of FIHL-esque effects, but I really don't see that hitstun period being worth too much UNLESS they're in midair and performing an aerial, in which case you get a free hit.

Because if they're on the ground, then it just clang-cancels and they can just block >__>;

I hate this thread so much lol

 

[Matador]

ugh i said it before...

STOP POSTING MATCHUP RATIOS

THEY MEAN NOTHING

lets get back to REAL discussion now plz

I was just saying that Mario doesn't get wrecked too bad by high tier in the tourney scene. That holds no weight in discussion which character is overall better?

Edit: Yeah Tenki. It's used mostly on aerials like G&W's Bair, Peach's Dair and Marth's fair. It screws with their spacing and helps us get in.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You don't see it happen because you've apparently 0 Mario experience.

Umm assumptions make you look like an ***.
What I am asking you , is how mario is capable of doing it, WITHOUT losing his safety.
Considering that extending his hitlag extends the duration his hitbox is out.

..They aren't going to keep him away, and they aren't meant to. They are meant to mess with his approach, because his spacing game is skewed when he has obstacles to deal with.

he just stands there and jabs.
He also has good mobility and high range. Like really?

Whether it moves you or not, it is still a good move for what it is used for, which is punishing and following up. Look at Wolf's F smash. It is a leaner, but it has great range. Now, imagine that, but 10x safer.

You cannot follow up due to bad hitstun.
Let alone Sonic can do it too, better.
Keep ignoring posts.

Also, FIHL is fludd induced hitlag. Pretty sure this works on Marth's tippers. FLUDD one of Marth's attacks, this causes it to have hitlag, and Mario regains control before the hitlag ends, giving him time to close the gap or even to punish with F smash.

Punish with a 15 frame move on a move that ends in LESS than 15 frames.
Sorry that does not work.

let alone hitlag keeps the hitbox out. Oh and the tipper is small so imagine the INCREDIBLE difficulty that is there.

What's he gonna do? He can't PS, he has a fireball to deal with.

POwershield the fireball.

If he shields, you won't be punished.

He can't powershield?

If he dodges before dealing with the fireball, he will be hit by it, and after, you will not be punished.

Who dodges BEFORE a fireball an hit them just so that whent hed odge ends, they get hit ny same fireball.
Why not jab the fireball.

If he rolls, you will not be punished.[/quote great what you gonna do to him besides reset the position/

Chances are you will be using this the moment after he negates a fireball with an attack, meaning it is used as punishment in the same way you'd punish Ness/Lucas down B or GnW bucket, only the timing is tighter. I suppose he could use counter, though.
/quote]
When he negates a fireball with an attack the move IMMEDIATELY IS ENDED WITH NO LAG AFTER.
Good luck punishing. Eat a jab or tilt while you try to punish.

I never said that a Sonic main said this, but that its their reputation.

This s called a rumor.
You know when they say, Mario mains have a fetish for helpless women?
Yeah thats a rumor.

LET ALONE IT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO THE ARGUMENT AT HAND!

What's wrong with the term boxing?

Oh nothing at all dude.
but it does say you are new to the competitve scene since you are adopting new terms, for terms that already exist.
Close quarter combat.
CQC.
Close range.
So yeah.

How else would you describe a character's effectiveness in that sort of combat? How else would you describe Falco's closed quarters gameplay? The fact that you consider a stutter stepped Mario F smash laughable in the face of Marth's attacks that have less range is bad enough, but you didn't even know what FIHL was, and listed DK as a character who, because he has a lot more range than marth, beats Mario when Mario has a 6-4 on him. Now, are we going to start talking matchups or what?

You mentioned FIHL earlier just not the FIHL term itself.
So yeah, I knew about the ability just not the term for it already.
Stop failing.
Less range?
Really?
I am done with you dude. Have a good night.

 

[Tenki]

Also, FIHL is fludd induced hitlag. Pretty sure this works on Marth's tippers. FLUDD one of Marth's attacks, this causes it to have hitlag, and Mario regains control before the hitlag ends, giving him time to close the gap or even to punish with F smash.

on FIHL shenanigans:

I have PT as a pseudo secondary and I use Squirtle's watergun much with some hope of FIHL-esque effects, but I really don't see that hitstun period being worth too much UNLESS they're in midair and performing an aerial, in which case you get a free hit.

Because if they're on the ground, then it just clang-cancels and they can just block >__>;

Edit: Yeah Tenki. It's used mostly on aerials like G&W's Bair, Peach's Dair and Marth's fair. It screws with their spacing and helps us get in.

thus, FIHL works on Marth's tippers, but is useless opening-wise unless you use it to foil a tipper aerial.

 

[darkNES386]

If my parents bought me a sega system when I was a kid I'd be pretty pissed. This may explain why a lot of sonic mains are ****s..

The board is known for being stuffed with *******es who think Sonic is 3rd on the tier list.

Darknid, I didn't even know you played Mario. You've never posted on the Mario boards.

Well, I picked up Luigi to help vs Wario then I discovered Mario is similar but a lot funner. I second the both of them.

So basically, I'd prefer if Matador and BO X7 who both I've played with. (BO X7 in person too last August and hopefully at Play 'n Trade in a couple weeks) continue this conversation. I also feel any other people are welcome to discuss the strengths of their character instead of attacking the "lacking" of Sonic.

It's safe to assume that there's stuff about FLUDD that we may not know just like there's lots of deceptive priority on many of Sonic's attacks. We are suppoed to be discussing how our characters handle the rest of the cast.

Basically talk about your most knowledgeable characters only (so if it's not mario or sonic talk about the two of them with respect to you.)

 

[Matador]

It's safe to assume that there's stuff about FLUDD that we may not know just like there's lots of deceptive priority on many of Sonic's attacks. We are suppoed to be discussing how our characters handle the rest of the cast.

Basically talk about your most knowledgeable characters only (so if it's not mario or sonic talk about the two of them with respect to you.)

Lol, explain to me how we should go about doing that without ratios or anything.

 

[BoTastic!]

So basically, I'd prefer if Matador and BO X7 who both I've played with. (BO X7 in person too last August and hopefully at Play 'n Trade in a couple weeks) continue this conversation. I also feel any other people are welcome to discuss the strengths of their character instead of attacking the "lacking" of Sonic.

It's safe to assume that there's stuff about FLUDD that we may not know just like there's lots of deceptive priority on many of Sonic's attacks. We are suppoed to be discussing how our characters handle the rest of the cast.

Basically talk about your most knowledgeable characters only (so if it's not mario or sonic talk about the two of them with respect to you.)

Honestly I don't want to take part in this. Too much hate. O_O

 

[Darknid]

Umm assumptions make you look like an ***.
What I am asking you , is how mario is capable of doing it, WITHOUT losing his safety.
Considering that extending his hitlag extends the duration his hitbox is out.

If you mean Mario will be hit by the attack..It's impossible for Mario to actually run into it, he just has to punish what little ending lag there is. He clearly won't be using it with Marth right in his face, but when Marth is handling fireballs you can use it to close the gap and get inside for some CQC/boxing(by the way, I originally called it CQC and people asked what I was talking about. Nobody mistakes the word 'boxing', however.) It isn't a go-to move, but it can get you inside his zone and get a grab in, and Mario can be tough to shake off, even for a character with as many quick options as Marth.

he just stands there and jabs.
He also has good mobility and high range. Like really?

F smash beats Marth's crappy jabs. Hell, if he's sitting there jabbing you could shieldgrab approach, lol. This isn't a good way to deal with fireballs.

You cannot follow up due to bad hitstun.
Let alone Sonic can do it too, better.
Keep ignoring posts.

This is just incorrect.

Punish with a 15 frame move on a move that ends in LESS than 15 frames.
Sorry that does not work.

let alone hitlag keeps the hitbox out. Oh and the tipper is small so imagine the INCREDIBLE difficulty that is there.


POwershield the fireball.

He can't powershield?

Who dodges BEFORE a fireball an hit them just so that whent hed odge ends, they get hit ny same fireball.
Why not jab the fireball.

Well how can you PS an F smash that occurs right after a fireball hits you? You could PS the fireball, but you wouldn't PS the F smash, and if you waited to PS the F smash you'd get hit by the fireball. Also, why would you jab with Marth? You'd get hit by the following F smash. This is one of the ways fireballs can be a real nuissance even if you have a way of making them disappear.

It also isn't very hard to use FIHL on Marth in my experience.

If he rolls, you will not be punished.[/quote great what you gonna do to him besides reset the position/

Chances are you will be using this the moment after he negates a fireball with an attack, meaning it is used as punishment in the same way you'd punish Ness/Lucas down B or GnW bucket, only the timing is tighter. I suppose he could use counter, though.
/quote]
When he negates a fireball with an attack the move IMMEDIATELY IS ENDED WITH NO LAG AFTER.
Good luck punishing. Eat a jab or tilt while you try to punish.

Yeah..but you will be attacking freely at any time after the fireball hits. He has to issue another attack after he negates the fireball. Basically, you are in a game of quickdraw, only you are able to draw before he can. Also, where are you finding these Marths that are using jabs? Marth's jabs are completely unsafe.

This s called a rumor.
You know when they say, Mario mains have a fetish for helpless women?
Yeah thats a rumor.

LET ALONE IT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO THE ARGUMENT AT HAND!

Alright, then that can end.

Oh nothing at all dude.
but it does say you are new to the competitve scene since you are adopting new terms, for terms that already exist.
Close quarter combat.
CQC.
Close range.
So yeah.

I remember this from the falcon vs ganon discussion as well as Marth vs Falco, where I was using the term CQC. When I use that term, people ask me what I mean. Someone made a post about 'boxing', and now when I use that term, people get it.

You mentioned FIHL earlier just not the FIHL term itself.
So yeah, I knew about the ability just not the term for it already.
Stop failing.
Less range?
Really?
I am done with you dude. Have a good night.

Ignoring the matchups?

 

[JayBee]

Sonic definitely has a higher learning curve than Mario. Mario really isn't even THAT hard to play at tourney level, but you really have to know the game to utilize all of his options.

I honestly have no idea why there aren't many of us. Boss still reps Mario for tourneys even though it's little. We have Marios like BO X7, Famous, TC1, VatoBreak, SupaTony, KirinBlaze, and others out there repping him and placing pretty well with their respective seconds for bad matchups but we're still low. I think our tourney representation is low or something, not sure. I personally just can't afford the time or money to get out to tourneys as much as I'd like, even though I've been to a few.

By the way, Mario vs D3 is NOT as bad as many make it out to be. Mashing out of the infinite since it requires a pummel is stupid easy up till 60%. I've seen Boss do it. I've done it myself. Again, just change your playstyle to campy and play safer. It's still a terrible matchup, but it's not scaring Marios away...not any Marios that'd actually make a difference anyway.

I also don't think Mario sweeps Sonic in spacing either. I just think that his ability to do things like pivot his cape and space Nairs to stutterstepped Fsmashes is pretty notable. I figure it gives him an edge, but hey, I could be wrong. I play Mario, you play Sonic. Naturally I'd have my bias even though I'm trying to stay as objective as possible.

Anyways, you have my opinion, though I doubt any other Marios will really agree with me. Mario is a tiny step ahead of Sonic in terms of potential because of his vast array of options, but Sonic isn't far behind. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he passed Mario in the next tier list...granted SBR actually pays attention to characters lower than Kirby on the list this time -_-

Ness >> Lucas, yet they're even. wtf.

yeah i think they are nearly eqaul but we are missing something if sonic's are doign clearly better than mario in tourneys. i think we are overlooking this. plus if boss has to do all that mashing to not get ***** by a ddd infinte, it doesn't really say its not a problem does it?

and though boss plays mario, he does a ton beter with luigi. and sonic's bair deals with the majority of their moves in terms of range and priority.

all his kill moves are situational or take too long lolololol. and compared to other character's priority sonic's for the mostpart is poor. his up smash is ez2c comin
who cares about invincibility frames in the beginning of his side b no sonic does that up close. his f smash is SLOW. his up air ie ez to c coming, and is situational. so is his b air.

yeah sonic's do use it close. all the time. it can be used to counter an attack by basically ignoring it and hitting for a spin dash combo. he can go through a lot of stuff with it when timed right. his up air juggling is one of the best in the game IMO. because its fast startup forces airdodges that are baited into more grabs and upairs/smashes. his fsmash is just abotu as fast as marios and from what i saw just now in training mode, just as good as marios.

Marios biggest flaw is that he doesn't have much range but, he has fast grounded moves,fast aerial moves that all auto cancel and can input 2 before landing on the ground,excellent gimping game,a pretty safe approach,good Oos moves ,moves that "string" into each other and has decent kill moves his only real flaw is he doesn't have much range.

Sonics biggest flaw is he doesn't have good priority,decent approach,or good kill power thats why mario is better imo and shadowlink i am stating facts about mario i'm not lying.
sonic has more flaws than mario

sonic has avarage priority, dare i say more priority than mario. its just that marios are a bit faster overall, but if sonic spaces he beats mario in the air. he can do the same to luigi too. sonic's approaches are extremely verstile, and be freestyled and is more diverse that most of the cast once cancelling is involved. his killing ability is just like marios what are you talkign about? this is probably why sonic is doing better in tourneys now that i think about it. he has better ranged moves and has the ground speed to space them better to make up for his slightly slower than mario's moves.

Shadowlink...

Go to your copy of Brawl. Place Marth on one side. Place Mario on the other.

F-smash with Marth and walk towards Mario until you are barely missing him.

Have Mario face away from Marth, F-smash, and watch Marth go aflame.

It's not the same as walking forward and F-smashing. Simply not.

<3

i tired this just now. its true, thats awesome, however, he is clearly being displaced forward. not saying its not a great way to punish, but he is moving forward. the range doesn't increase.

Darknid, I didn't even know you played Mario. You've never posted on the Mario boards.

wooooooow. that sucks.


the more i listen the more im convinced sonis is better. when i look at the moves, sonic actually ourranges mario move per move basis. marios are faster, but sonic's ground speed overcomes this. everything else is equal just about attribute wise. but few seem to matche sonics speed and movement/ approach options and that's where the tourney wins are coming from. that, and smart players.

marios need more player to step it up. that's all it seems to me. it ll happen by the end of this year IMO. but right now, sonic is more proven to win. im not making that up at least.

someone also mentioned sonics horrible spindashes but they clash with fireballs, and that mario fsmash you love so much. i jsut tested this in training more too. Sonic's Down B vs Mario's Fsmash was a tie. the end.

 

[:mad:]

yeah i think they are nearly eqaul but we are missing something if sonic's are doign clearly better than mario in tourneys. i think we are overlooking this. plus if boss has to do all that mashing to not get ***** by a ddd infinte, it doesn't really say its not a problem does it?

Sonic has more players.
Mario does have a few select players that do exceptionally well at tournaments, we just never report the results to Ankoku. That list is extremely unaccurate.

and though boss plays mario, he does a ton beter with luigi.

Luigi is the better character.

yeah sonic's do use it close. all the time. it can be used to counter an attack by basically ignoring it and hitting for a spin dash combo. he can go through a lot of stuff with it when timed right. his up air juggling is one of the best in the game IMO. because its fast startup forces airdodges that are baited into more grabs and upairs/smashes. his fsmash is just abotu as fast as marios and from what i saw just now in training mode, just as good as marios.

Sounds good to me.
Though frame data says otherwise. Mario's Fsmash hits on frame 15, Sonic's hits on frame 17. Which is barely noticeable, but still in Mario's favor.

sonic has avarage priority, dare i say more priority than mario. its just that marios are a bit faster overall, but if sonic spaces he beats mario in the air. he can do the same to luigi too. sonic's approaches are extremely verstile, and be freestyled and is more diverse that most of the cast once cancelling is involved. his killing ability is just like marios what are you talkign about? this is probably why sonic is doing better in tourneys now that i think about it. he has better ranged moves and has the ground speed to space them better to make up for his slightly slower than mario's moves.

So this entire paragraph just puts Sonic on par with Mario. And no, Mario beats Sonic in the air. Fair's your best bet if you try to put out some damage, and if both characters space their bairs, Mario's is faster.

i tired this just now. its true, thats awesome, however, he is clearly being displaced forward. not saying its not a great way to punish, but he is moving forward. the range doesn't increase.

Obviously. It doesn't increase range, we've been over this. It gives Mario an extra option if his opponent won't move. It's basically just him taking a step or two, then Fsmashing. It has farther range in front of him because he stutter STEPS forward.

wooooooow. that sucks.

no u.

the more i listen the more im convinced sonis is better.

Fair enough.

when i look at the moves, sonic actually ourranges mario move per move basis. marios are faster, but sonic's ground speed overcomes this.

If Mario can put out more moves, it provides a wall, meaning your ground speed plays a smaller role because you could end up running right into a SHDBair.

everything else is equal just about attribute wise. but few seem to matche sonics speed and movement/ approach options and that's where the tourney wins are coming from. that, and smart players.

No, tourney results come from smart players that play smart.
Sonic wins tournies because he has amazing approach options? Against a Wario or Meta Knight, I'd be surprised if his approaches would work.

marios need more player to step it up. that's all it seems to me. it ll happen by the end of this year IMO. but right now, sonic is more proven to win. im not making that up at least.

Indeed. And no, nothing's gonna change. Mario just isn't tourney viable. But we can still hope for the best.

someone also mentioned sonics horrible spindashes but they clash with fireballs, and that mario fsmash you love so much. i jsut tested this in training more too. Sonic's Down B vs Mario's Fsmash was a tie. the end.

Super-cool.

 

[Tenki]

Honestly I don't want to take part in this. Too much hate. O_O

Not really. You should be fine for the most part,

unless you're:
1) obviously trolling and they don't catch on to you (hint: > 100)
2) obstinately holding to a point that most people disagree with (can be gameplay or definition issues >_>)
3) multiquoting alot

Well how can you PS an F smash that occurs right after a fireball hits you? You could PS the fireball, but you wouldn't PS the F smash, and if you waited to PS the F smash you'd get hit by the fireball.

I have issues with this.

Mario main, confirm this please.










Mario main, confirm this offline please.

 

[:mad:]

I have issues with this.

Mario main, confirm this please.










Mario main, confirm this offline please.

Eh, I wouldn't believe it. If you shield the fireball, drop it, then reshield all in under 15 frames, it's true.

 

[Tenki]

lol, thought so.

it's freaking powershielding.
Either you have noticeably slow reflexes or you're playing online if you can't re-shield before Mario's F-smash after P-shielding a fireball.

 

[:mad:]

Lol yeah, if a Mario has a fireball out, he'd be better off jabbing. That puts more pressure on the Sonic, and it's hella safer.

 

[BoTastic!]

Not really. You should be fine for the most part,

Idk. I might be flamed on. o_O

 

[PK-ow!]

Power shield has no lag, just the 1 frame you shield. The only way you could fail to shield an attack after that is if that attack comes out faster than a second shield - which I believe comes out frame 2 for every character.

So, you can beat the PS with one of two moves in succession only if they strike exactly one frame apart.
However, when power shielding, I believe you also may hold shield, so you have nothing guaranteed.

I'm here cuz mah Ness lost his steak. >_>

 

[:mad:]

Idk. I might be flamed on. o_O

That's what I'm afraid of. o_o
I can sense some retaliation for my earlier post, lol.

 

[darkNES386]

Like Tenki said, don't pull a darknid and say:

Mario is awesome at spacing, sonic can't space... but he can run really fast... which actually works really well... but he still sucks at spacing so Mario is better... even though Sonic is probably better against D3.

I'm curious how you handle R.O.B. ... come on BO!

 

[:mad:]

Eh, Mario vs. ROB's heavily debated. Everyone but BO thinks it's a disadvantage, he thinks it's 60:40 Mario.

I still say even or slight disadvantage for us.

 

[BoTastic!]

I'm telling you guys Mario beats rob. Look at Boss Vs Jcaesar on youtube. Me and Boss can't be the only Marios who take robs down. >_>

Edit: you guys aren't fighting him the right way.

 

[:mad:]

I tried fighting him the left way.

no u.

 

[Kinzer]

Man, oh I am so tired, and I was playing Wi-Fi all dai, and then this happens...

I'm just going to address the posts that have not been repleid to.

I also love how we had to get a GD moderator to try to get this thread back in place, why is it such a coincidence that we have not had to resort to this with the other 3 characters discussed prior...?

Yeah, you people know who you are...

They come out in 13 frames, Dsmash in 16, Fsmash in 17. While somewhat situational, they aren't as slow as you prefer to think. >_>

Actually, I believe Mario and Sonic's FSmash come out on the same frame (take it or leave it), so if that's slow, then well... yeah.

It's just dandy for Mario that he has quicker options OoS... and with good power I suppose.

If I may interject..

Brawl is a piss poor game.

Not that Sonic's the kind of character who's meant to just charge head-long into an opponent anyways >_>

Can we agree to disagree? It's an okay game I suppose.

But forgetting that.

I thought Sonic was that kind of a character .

Well, maybe doing it smartly. >.>

I personally don't care. I hardly play this game. I just hate seeing people spew those fake ideals all over the boards.

Do it because you're our debater with the official Pink name! :D

Our other awesome person is Shadow... he just don has the pink.

And now I see why most people avoid coming to this thread...

Perhaps that's because it's too headesk-worthy for some people when their arguments are proven wrong. Or something related I don't know.

@Mario_101 - I think the Sonics would maybe respect us more if you at least put up a reasonable argument. :/

I love Mario mains in general, I'm not going to develop some kind of hate just because of a few certain bad apples. Don't worry you're doing it right. I know Aegz already said this but I want to clarify that you have nothing to worry about as a majority.

Well first off, Bowser is the best defensive character in the game. Saying Mario is not as good on D as Bowser is like saying a basketball player isn't as good as MJ. It's a useless statement. Mario has a great camping game. Every character can shield every projectile. This proves nothing. His fireball is still one of the best obstacles in the game, he will have two fireballs coating the ground at once, and you can't **** around with jabs all day, he will change it up and FLUDD you to push you offstage or pop you with a bair.

In terms of matchups, I've <<<exclusively>>> been talking about high/top tiers. Snake, Marth, Wario, DK, Diddy, ROB, Olimar, Falco, Lucario..None of these are really bad matchups for Mario, and they're all **** near even. There's also the fact that you can't really trust the MU threads in the sonic boards because sonic mains think their character is a lot better than he appears to be, which may be true but as of right now I've no evidence to believe he does well against D3.

I didn't know Bowser was the best at it, I just used it as an example to say which character would probably have it better... his defense game does him no good when a couple of the characters can force approaches though... Which explains why he isn't as good as he could be... but alas this is getting off-topic. I was just using jabs as an example too, of course the more efficient thing to do would be to shield them and just keep going, which I also question where such a camping game will get him once he runs out of stage.

-Wait a minute, speaking of stage... since when was our testdummy offstage? You're talking about a camping game, not an offstage-harassment (or anything-related to) game for the moment. This is an opponent approaching you from the stage, not off of it, right?

...Besides that what doesn't it prove? If we didn't have shields in this game, then maybe yeah people would have to either jump over Fireballs or just swiss them aside! Like I aid, it can't be done forever either, eventually something's gonna have to happen...

And since when could any character, let alone Mario RAR in the air...? how's he gonna hit anybody with Bair after conjuring up Fireballs? You're talking like you fight opponents who can't position/space for their lives. and AFAIK F.L.U.D.D. only goes one way, so the most it will do onstage (which is what we're assuming) is just push them away, but then there are better things to use than onstage guard F.L.U.D.D. now isn't there?

YAY my favorite part of the quote!

Forgetting that both characters' MUs are still similar (again, IDC for 5 points, no major difference), you think Sonic isn't presented as accurate as could be? Well you're right on that part but you obviously know next to nothing about this character.

I can't really trust your MU ratios either since there could be just a tiny pinch of bias in their too, not to mention in the competitive world they don't mean anything hardly. ^_^

And God knows nobody here will ever take your word on any MUs.

...But then what am I doing? MUs don't position characters on the tier list, sure it may have some kind of influence but I doubt that's the biggest piece, since it's just a bunch of guys coming together to come up with a simple number when really it's the strategies of how to take advantage of what and how to try and make as little mistakes and still keep natural character flaws to an absolute minimum.

Obviously you did not read my previous post (not the one you quoted, durr) where I said how Sonic can do just d*** fine against D3... I wonder if I could start arguing why D3 might not be a 4-6 disadvantage.... nah too much trouble for something that doesn't matter.

As did I. The second Kinzer walked in, I foresaw trouble.

Oh, you know me all too well.

i like how everyone ignored what i said

You're here now right? XD

Nah c'mon, don't act like nobody reads your posts, because unless you're a troll or not backing up any of your reasons (which I beleive IIRC you were), then your opinion is considered.

Wario's aireals actually have rediculous priority. How can Sonic possibly outrange Wario in the air? That can't be true.

Tell me why this pertains to the discussion at hand?

Lol, explain to me how we should go about doing that without ratios or anything.

Use them as something to consider, not something to use as an end-all be all, or otherwise Ganondorf would undisputedably be below Captain Falcon with his MU ratios (note, he gets destroyed by Shiek and ICs AFAIK).

Not really. You should be fine for the most part, unless you're multiquoting alot.

Aww man Tenki, that's a low blow to us actually trying. :/

P.S. I don't know which would be more troublesome for Sonic to deal with, a jab or a smash, both have their cons, like a jab being fast but having no range, and a smash attack... well I should not even have to describe that for you (you know where this is going, right?)

 

[:mad:]

Actually, I believe Mario and Sonic's FSmash come out on the same frame (take it or leave it), so if that's slow, then well... yeah.

Two frame difference, Mario's is slightly faster.

Do it because you're our debater with the official Pink name! :D

I has the pink! I'll be the Mario debater.

Perhaps that's because it's too headesk-worthy for some people when their arguments are proven wrong. Or something related I don't know.

It's headesk-worthy to participate in a discussion that's basically saying "We're better than you, here's why." That is the point of this thread, right? Discussing how you beat the people above you?

I love Mario mains in general, I'm not going to develop some kind of hate just because of a few certain bad apples. Don't worry you're doing it right. I know Aegz already said this but I want to clarify that you have nothing to worry about as a majority.

That paragraph was major homo, but we love you too. See you guys at the next Olympics.

Oh, you know me all too well.

I barely know you at all, we've never talked.

P.S. I don't know which would be more troublesome for Sonic to deal with, a jab or a smash, both have their cons, like a jab being fast but having no range, and a smash attack... well I should not even have to describe that for you (you know where this is going, right?)

Jab's faster, so that's mainly why I said it.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh... kay. Two frames faster is... obviously faster.

Oh dear lord no that's NOT the main purpose. I won't lie, if I believe in something, I'll try and prove it right, but if I can't then I'll turn over. In this case, let's just say SOMEHOW Sonic got to be on the higher end of mid-tier right at this point of time in the metagame. I'm pretty sure it would be REALLY hard to argue why Sonic might be a better character than Toon Link. In fact I've bee agreeing with Tenki that we probably should go over some of the characters below Sonic, because err... let's see... Yoshi and PT (maybe Jigglypuff as of late but pretend like you haven't read this part) are very good contenders, and it would probably be our duty to prove why they shouldn't rise above Sonic, no matter how far they move up. If we can't prove why not, then by all means have those characters above Sonic. Could you please tell me where you got the idea that it was just some sort of blunt message that says "Our character is better than yours and we want to know exactly how and why that", because that can't be the case if the factors are greater than what we don't want to accept (assuming our bias was to an extreme)/can't deny or no longer refute. We can find a common goal if you're willing to work with us, I promise.

Uhm... what else... Oh right... I'll say this, in all honesty I see Mario and Sonic now sharing the same spot, like Lucario/Olimar or Ness/Lucas (not really but you know what I mean). If I hadn't been presented with some info, I would still believe Sonic > Mario (well alright da**** I THINK that, but you know as fighters in Brawl I'm more realistic, as you're reading... right?). Perhaps the title is misleading? (Sasuke was trying to tell us something, for sure...)

Also I know we haven't talked at all, but it's strange how you know how I do!

 

[:mad:]

That was more than the answer I was looking for... CALM THE DOW - oh wait, wrong character forum.

The title is extremely misleading, I just assumed it was you guys trying to prove that you're better than the rest of the low tiers.

If we haven't talked, of course I know that you know that we haven't talked.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Went and looked up some of the FIHL stuff, and some of BO's vids, who's totally legit btw, and the FIHL seems cool. The only annoying thing is how situational it seems.
The closer the opponent is when you use it, the more useful it is and more likely you are to punish them. Otherwise there's no real point in using it at all.
The only time I can see it being used is when you're being pressured, but then you have to take into account the start up lag (20 frames?).

I wonder how this plays a part for Squirtle. *Seconds PT*

 

[BoTastic!]

BO's vids, who's totally legit btw

Why thank you =)

I wonder how this plays a part for Squirtle. *Seconds PT*

Mario>>>squirtle In every way, shape and form. He's just a weaker version of Mario.

Also I never use FIHL that much. But its useful when you it use it. Leaves characters Like Marth wide open.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I knew this would happen.

That makes two of us

ugh i said it before...

STOP POSTING MATCHUP RATIOS

THEY MEAN NOTHING

lets get back to REAL discussion now plz

I disagree since this thread is about trying to see why Sonic should be higher in the tier list. Match ups play a very important part in that I would have thought D:

Lol, I can't believe you people have actually sunk to ranting about who has the better games from about 20 years ago. Really, it's like saying which is better, apples or oranges. We all have different preferences...honestly

Talk about stuff that matters guys I don't remember seeing anything about comparing recovery between the two or anything proper match up comparison (and by match up comparison, I mean match ups that have been clearly discussed with good input from both sides)

I agree with Straked though. Chis, you might want to change the title of the thread to maybe something like 'Why Sonic should be higher than...'


And whoever was arguing about Mario's F Smash, I should point out that Sonic's has slightly more range. And Sonic can stutter step as well. Mario's F Smash is noticeably stronger in terms of killing power from the fire part

 

[Browny]

matchups =/= matchup ratios

When people go 'mario goes 45:55 vs snake' with absolutely NO proof whatsoever of this being the case, its pointless. Snake isnt sitting #2 on the rankings list, destroying the vast majority of the cast while having even matchups with low tiers. just because someone says 50:50 in a matchup based on pure theory means NOTHING when that character is getting slaughtered in the tournament scene.

something along these lines is more appropriate

Sonic and mario are both disadvantaged against most of top and high tier with a few solid counters in there too. Mario seems to perform better in many of these matchups than sonic does, but he gets countered harder by a select few. the fact that these hard counters represent some of the most popular choices in tournament while sonics counters are less popular makes the viability of each character different. As a character as a whole with matchups across the entire cast, mario is most probably better but in terms of tournament viability, Sonic seems to be the better character as he is more capable of placing highly based off tournament results thus far

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ah right, my apologies, I misunderstood what you'd put Woops

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Mario>>>squirtle In every way, shape and form. He's just a weaker version of Mario.

But, but, but... Squirtle's blue ... >_>

Lol nah, I know. Squirtle sucks and dies too early, but I still love him. If only because of his agility in the air.... and shellshifting... and the fact that he ***** Olimar...

But yeah I've noticed the similarities, utilt juggles (Squirtles is faster though), up air juggles. dair .... upB.... bair....

But I digress.....

FIHL seems useful, it'll take awhile before it can be properly utilized. I'll look for it used against Marth.

 

[Chis]

Yeah, mind games should be considered because this thread is about how Sonic played at higher levels will do better then another character played on that level. And Sonic move set allows for 'mind games'. Ahem, baiting an attack and reaction and punishing accordingly. Since the proprieties of his dash, spin charge and spin dash allow for multiple options and stuff. Some say it's dependent on the player, however this is happens regularly in high level, and is also part of Sonic play style.

Also let's talk about stages and stuff.

 

[BoTastic!]

matchups =/= matchup ratios

When people go 'mario goes 45:55 vs snake' with absolutely NO proof whatsoever of this being the case, its pointless. Snake isnt sitting #2 on the rankings list, destroying the vast majority of the cast while having even matchups with low tiers. just because someone says 50:50 in a matchup based on pure theory means NOTHING when that character is getting slaughtered in the tournament scene.

something along these lines is more appropriate

Sonic and mario are both disadvantaged against most of top and high tier with a few solid counters in there too. Mario seems to perform better in many of these matchups than sonic does, but he gets countered harder by a select few. the fact that these hard counters represent some of the most popular choices in tournament while sonics counters are less popular makes the viability of each character different. As a character as a whole with matchups across the entire cast, mario is most probably better but in terms of tournament viability, Sonic seems to be the better character as he is more capable of placing highly based off tournament results thus far

Fail. who said Mario was 44:55 snake? >_> wow That match ups is 60:40 snake.

Also noone plays Mario. Sonic is so much more popular than Mario

 

[Chis]

Urg, I can't be bother to explain that a bajillion Sonic's are not entering and winning tourneys. As many people have explained in this thread alone that this is not the case. Unless you mean that Mario’s just under used, like Falcon in tourneys.

On a random note, now I know what your user name means.

 

[BoTastic!]

Urg, I can't be bother to explain that a bajillion Sonic's are not entering and winning tourneys. As many people have explained in this thread alone that this is not the case. Unless you mean that Mario’s just under used, like Falcon in tourneys.

On a random note, now I know what your user name means.

My bad, that's exactly what I mean. Mario is very underused in tournaments. Also 5000 cool points to what you think my name means.

 

[vato_break]

As i already mention sonic has more flaws than mario does and mario has more going for him,ex :gimps,priority,apporach,killing power,combos...marios really only flaw is that he doesn't have much range but, sonic doesn't either so thats why imo mario is the better chacracter

 

[Browny]

priority = range as far as mario and sonic are concerned, since mario isnt exactly packing snake/DK/ike's tilts to simply overpower moves on the ground, his priority is severely lacking overall. people REALLY need to understand this. characters do not have a value of priority assigned to them. Snake doesnt have high priority, he has massive disjoints which overpower and outdamage everything. luigis attacks are simply faster than almost everyone elses. Sonics uair and side b hop dont have high priority, they have a massive disjoint and invincibility. remember when you say mario has more priority that sonic its one of these factors PER ATTACK... nothing else

also you forget recovery. its quite important lol, mario can gimp well, but he also gets gimped himself. sonic never dies unless he hits the blastzone