Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[T-block]

if you're playing with items, d-smash can hit past the hammer with a little bit of timing. they can't recover if it hits them off stage.

the more you know

 

[humble]

"...if you're playing with items..."

 

[T-block]

 

[Zigsta]

Someone's been hanging with DMG.

 

[humble]

Someone's been hanging with DMG.

OH JESUS MAKE IT STOP!

 

[Buuda]

Humble- Have you read Reflex's guide? That covers quite a lot, and will probably be really helpful. As far as Ivy's grab game goes, F-throw and D-throw have great follow-ups, and F-throw CAN pseudo-cg (not well if the person you're playing is good and plays a light/floaty character). I often follow up Razor-Leafs with a grab, B-throw to space them out, then spam the Razor Leaves some moar until I get close enough to grab again. I play Ivyspam, not Ivysaur.

Edit- By Ivyspam, I mean I spam when I can within reason, so y'all don't go trollin' me tellin' me how bad my Ivy is because I shouldn't "just spam". XP

 

[humble]

Just looked at the frame data, ivy is fast. This is news to me. - nair, frame 4, bair, frame 4, dtilt, frame 4, jab, frame 4, dash attack, frame 4, bullet seed, frame 4.

Frame 4 ftw

 

[Steeler]

jab is frame 7.

 

[humble]

jab is frame 7.

yep, my bad. Ftilt is frame 5 as well I think.

I've found a situational use for tether cancel! While playing on SV, if ivy is on the ledge, wait until the platform comes over the ledge, then release from ledge, jump backwards, and tether. If you do it right, Ivy lands on the platform to cancel the tether. If you miss time it, just snap in to the ledge!

Speaking of fun ivy tether techs, instant tether ***** recoveries with helpless states hard. Mario, wolf, etc. It's really easy to mixup too, instant tether, release then double jump, fastfall nair to bulletseed, instant tether then release and airdodge while they come onto the stage, then grab and bthrow them back off.

 

[CHOMPY]

I'm having some approaching issues with Ivysaur. Can someone please give some tips on when I should back away and when it's a good time to approach?

 

[Phiddlesticks]

back away when youre winning, approach when youre losing

(basically, always approach)

 

[T-block]

Ivysaur has a terrible approach game... if they're not coming to you, I would seriously consider sitting back and letting your other pokemon recover.

 

[humble]

Ivy's air speed ruins her otherwise fine approach game. If you can, force them to come to you, but on characters with better projectiles, go in cautious and space your moves to avoid punishment.

EDIT: What are your guy's feelings on using uair low to the ground?

 

[Steeler]

it's got a ton of shield pushback, it's not bad.

 

[T-block]

it's something i've been telling myself to use more

 

[Buuda]

Yeah I like using SH or FHFF u-air quite a bit. It's not too laggy, really. As long as you hit the ground. The shield pushback is good, and it's got a pretty **** hitbox (even underneath Ivy), so I'd say it's pretty good.

 

[GoofBall]

Just to clear this up for me:

I don't know if it was a glitch, or sweet spot, or what, but I cannot recreate it. But then again, I don't main Ivy(or the others) or play the, often at all. But does Fair have a Spike effect at all?

Also, could it stage spike if they are hanging on the ledge?

Thanks

 

[T-block]

it can stage spike

it can't spike otherwise

 

[CHOMPY]

At what point do you use Ivysaur's Fair? When the opponent is approaching or when you Fair while your approaching?

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I use Fair for killing without trying to put myself at risk.

You should try to use Fair like once every 30 seconds since if you become predictible with it, you're going to get punished.

 

[Steeler]

fair is not a safe approach against good characters

 

[Magik0722]

I find fair to be pretty safe

 

[Steeler]

if the character has like no good OoS options...

 

[Kemious]

I find Fair only useful for forced air dodges

 

[Vermy]

Use fair when returning to the stage, it gets rid of edgehoggers when timed right. Strafe back to the stage without using your second jump, jump, fair. (Y)

 

[CoonTail]

Well we can autocancel SH F-air so if used properly and sparringly it works well but once you over use it things will get ugly from there

 

[humble]

Does anyone else use Ivy's tether cancel on SV? If you are on the ledge, wait until the platform comes to your side, then press down, immediately jump backwards, and then time your up-B press and you will tether to the ledge, and then as you swing down you land on the platform and cancel your tether. This is useful because it allows ivy to get off the ledge safely, it refreshes her tethers if you want to camp the ledge, and it looks really ******.

 

[oOTjayOo]

i might try that i saw some good tricks with it

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur Dash Attack has a lot of priority. I was using it to cover Luigi as he fell to the stage; works rather well.

 

[Kemious]

eh the dash attack is way too unsafe to use out side of using it when your opponents near the edge. Other wise your asking for a smash attack

 

[Zigsta]

Just don't be predictable with it. It comes out pretty fast.

Someone's spotdodging to the ground? Dash 'em.

 

[Toby.]

Or be a real man and SH bullet seed.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Real men typhdash.

 

[CHOMPY]

If you dash often and your opponent get's in the habit of putting up their shield, you can just use a RAR late fast fall back air and then use a ftilt to poke their shield.

 

[Tesh]

Doesn't the spike portion of nair combo into dash attack but not any of ivy's smashes? Or does nair stop doing that at high percents?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Everyone--

Remember when I was talking about the platform potential of Ivysaur?

It's because it allows you to use your aerials without having to fall back to the stage with her terrible horizontal aerial mobility holding her back.

F-Air is potentially great for damage, KOs, and spacing, but when you start falling, you have nothing good to protect yourself with.

B-Air is potentially great for combos and excellent spacing, but it leaves a fairly large gap between two B-Airs, deals crap damage, and is predictable.

What if we start mixing them up within a single jump? That's where platforms come in. With a full-hop F-Air (which is mostly safe, especially when retreating), after your hitbox comes out, you're easy pickings for the opponent normally. However, if you do an immediate full-hop F-Air underneath many platforms, the animation is over before you land on the platform. If you time it well, you can use the F-Air a little after you jump, making it even safer. That being said, you have plenty of leeway to buffer it out of a full-hop, but if you can time it well, all the better. Just takes practice.

This allows you to gain your entire moveset immediately after a F-Air, which is awesome.

Aggressive, fast characters can be dealt with by following the landing up with an immediate Dash Attack (if their attack doesn't have much range), F-Tilt/F-Smash (if they try to space horizontally) or jumping D-Air (if they try to juggle you with U-Airs or something).

Outside of that, though, you can just turn around, fall through the platform, and immediately B-Air, allowing for a F-Air -> B-Air defense that is safer than doing the same aerial twice, as well as very unpredictable because of your options when you land from the F-Air.

You can do this on any legal stage with platforms (they all seem to be at least near the perfect height off the ground for it). I may make a list of which ones are perfect and which ones allow you to do a F-Air later to make it safer.

Also, have we messed around with short-hop B-Reversed Bullet Seed? I imagine it might work well against characters with really good shield games and spotdodges (since it's easy to shield afterward). Perhaps the movement provided by the B-Reverse will allow Ivysaur to stay on a person's shield long enough to start shield-poking on shield. This also goes with the idea that Ivysaur should be aiming to make the opponent use up their shield.

Experiment with this stuff and tell me what you think!

 

[Zigsta]

Interesting, Reflex. I'll mess around with it!

Increased mobility is always a good thing.

 

[bigman40]

Haha. I was just about to ask if Wavebounced bullet seeds were looked at more, but Reflex beat me to it.

 

[T-block]

Everyone--

Remember when I was talking about the platform potential of Ivysaur?

It's because it allows you to use your aerials without having to fall back to the stage with her terrible horizontal aerial mobility holding her back.

F-Air is potentially great for damage, KOs, and spacing, but when you start falling, you have nothing good to protect yourself with.

B-Air is potentially great for combos and excellent spacing, but it leaves a fairly large gap between two B-Airs, deals crap damage, and is predictable.

What if we start mixing them up within a single jump? That's where platforms come in. With a full-hop F-Air (which is mostly safe, especially when retreating), after your hitbox comes out, you're easy pickings for the opponent normally. However, if you do an immediate full-hop F-Air underneath many platforms, the animation is over before you land on the platform. If you time it well, you can use the F-Air a little after you jump, making it even safer. That being said, you have plenty of leeway to buffer it out of a full-hop, but if you can time it well, all the better. Just takes practice.

This allows you to gain your entire moveset immediately after a F-Air, which is awesome.

Aggressive, fast characters can be dealt with by following the landing up with an immediate Dash Attack (if their attack doesn't have much range), F-Tilt/F-Smash (if they try to space horizontally) or jumping D-Air (if they try to juggle you with U-Airs or something).

Outside of that, though, you can just turn around, fall through the platform, and immediately B-Air, allowing for a F-Air -> B-Air defense that is safer than doing the same aerial twice, as well as very unpredictable because of your options when you land from the F-Air.

You can do this on any legal stage with platforms (they all seem to be at least near the perfect height off the ground for it). I may make a list of which ones are perfect and which ones allow you to do a F-Air later to make it safer.

Also, have we messed around with short-hop B-Reversed Bullet Seed? I imagine it might work well against characters with really good shield games and spotdodges (since it's easy to shield afterward). Perhaps the movement provided by the B-Reverse will allow Ivysaur to stay on a person's shield long enough to start shield-poking on shield. This also goes with the idea that Ivysaur should be aiming to make the opponent use up their shield.

Experiment with this stuff and tell me what you think!

I love posts like this... make me think about the character in different ways.

I did wavebounce Bullet Seed once, and it looks sexy as hell.

 

[Geenareeno]

Are there any good video examples of PT's wavebounces? I've heard about rocksmash and bullet seed but i don't know what they look like or what the use of them is.