LCD WATCHers: The Mr. Game & Watch Video & Users Thread

[SeanS]

I believe it's somewhere around those numbers as well. The purpose of the videos isn't to say what a MU is, it's to show G&W can win. That's really all there is to it.

 

[MasterChef Doesn't Cook]

Username: MasterChef Doesn't Cook
In-game Name: MasterChef
NNID: <I don't own a console, I'll edit this when I do>
Country of Residence: USA, PA
Palette Color: Vomit Yellow
Message: It's hard getting into competitive when all you can do is mooch off of your friend's consoles, but I will certainly try.

Yo, I played at my second tournament (Smash Valley II) and I placed 9th overall! I would really appreciate any advice from more experienced g&w players. I was super nervous during my matches, and I definitely threw out a lot of unsafe options and non-optimal punishes, so anyway you think you can help me out, please do so! Thanks guys!

Pools MChef vs L30 (Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmyA3D1gsn8

Pools MChef vs The Baz (Ike, Little Mac)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prR7civa2PE

Top 16 (Winners) MChef vs Codeman (Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2XNDu88iWc

Top 16 (Losers) MChef vs Arrazzan (Yoshi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nwhl7WMqI

-Peace, Hip G Dawgs

 

[Youbacon42]

Username: MasterChef Doesn't Cook
In-game Name: MasterChef
NNID: <I don't own a console, I'll edit this when I do>
Country of Residence: USA, PA
Palette Color: Vomit Yellow
Message: It's hard getting into competitive when all you can do is mooch off of your friend's consoles, but I will certainly try.

Yo, I played at my second tournament (Smash Valley II) and I placed 9th overall! I would really appreciate any advice from more experienced g&w players. I was super nervous during my matches, and I definitely threw out a lot of unsafe options and non-optimal punishes, so anyway you think you can help me out, please do so! Thanks guys!

Pools MChef vs L30 (Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmyA3D1gsn8

Pools MChef vs The Baz (Ike, Little Mac)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prR7civa2PE

Top 16 (Winners) MChef vs Codeman (Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2XNDu88iWc

Top 16 (Losers) MChef vs Arrazzan (Yoshi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nwhl7WMqI

-Peace, Hip G Dawgs

Hi there! I took the liberty to watch all four sets and here's my side B about your gameplay:

Vs. Fox: That Match-Up is horrible for G&W in every way, but this fox threw out much unsave stuff himself. You did capitalize on some parts, but you could've gone more in at many spots. Learn to shield more (but not in the last-match-way. In that match he played you like a fiddle). if you shield an f-smash of fox, the punish is more free than Leffen. But you also need to space more, when you for example did a bair you would go into fox's face and he had a free grab (I guess this happened during match 2).
When you did your ledge get-ups, you kinda played for Fox most of the time. What the fox player did was pre-input either shield or smash attack and you would run into the punish most of the time. Take a bit more time looking at what the fox is going for. But of course not too long. If he charges a smash attack for example, you may want to try letting go of the ledge and punish with an up B. It works even better on stages like battlefield when you have a direct plattform to land on.
(But in all honesty, get a secondary who deals better with Fox.)

Vs. Ike/Little Mac: The Ike-MU on Battlefield... oh boy. that is funny. Anyways, you did shield much stuff he threw out and grabbed/capitalized as you could. But then you ran into counters and into other attacks... There isn't much to say about the other attacks, you just let yourself hit by em. But if you want to bait counters, try to empty jump a bit or just jump more in general. Don't only jump if you're going for attacks. You want to bait ike to think you're gonna throw an aerial and then if he airdodges/counters, boom. free punish. Over all, stop getting hit by his slow moves.
After looking at Match Two: Well look at that. It wasn't a perfect performance but you really improved mid-set. Good job!
Oh Boy, the second half of the Little Mac-Match was painful to watch... The first half was soooo beautiful, but then you ran into his attacks like you did in the first Ike-match. You ran into his counters especially. Don't always try to get maximum damage against people who love pressing down B. Just don't. Rather approach with empty jumps to bait a counter to get a much more effective punish.

Vs. Fox 2: Once again, arguably our worst MU. I'll give him that his perfect pivot movements looked clean, but he used those miles away from you. When he actually tried to approach with those, you got him quite many times (although he got some bairs which were looking clean), like during match one when you took out his stock for it. You did your best and you could've capitalized on many more spots, but dealing with fox is hard as G&W. That's just it.

Vs. Yoshi: Like the commentator said: This Yoshi player was very agressive (rofl at that commentator's curse).And you baited him at many parts wonderfully, especially in the beginning. When he started playing defensively you had a bit of trouble getting in (you relied more on him getting in), but eventually he went into you and boom, win.

Sooo, after sorting out the situational stuff, time to come to a conclusion: You have problems against counters. Try to bait them with (empty) jumps or faint attacks.
Unless I am drunk, I saw you never off-stage (and if you actually were, very rarely). You want to go off-stage. Look at that first Little Mac-stock.
If you need to go in, learn to space. You don't want to go inside your opponent after you hit his shield. Try a retreating fair/bair to gain some distance after your attack.
Besides that, try to connect an up-B after a nair. extra damage is always good.
That's it from me. Hope I could be helpful.

 

[MasterChef Doesn't Cook]

Hi there! I took the liberty to watch all four sets and here's my side B about your gameplay:

Vs. Fox: That Match-Up is horrible for G&W in every way, but this fox threw out much unsave stuff himself. You did capitalize on some parts, but you could've gone more in at many spots. Learn to shield more (but not in the last-match-way. In that match he played you like a fiddle). if you shield an f-smash of fox, the punish is more free than Leffen. But you also need to space more, when you for example did a bair you would go into fox's face and he had a free grab (I guess this happened during match 2).
When you did your ledge get-ups, you kinda played for Fox most of the time. What the fox player did was pre-input either shield or smash attack and you would run into the punish most of the time. Take a bit more time looking at what the fox is going for. But of course not too long. If he charges a smash attack for example, you may want to try letting go of the ledge and punish with an up B. It works even better on stages like battlefield when you have a direct plattform to land on.
(But in all honesty, get a secondary who deals better with Fox.)

Vs. Ike/Little Mac: The Ike-MU on Battlefield... oh boy. that is funny. Anyways, you did shield much stuff he threw out and grabbed/capitalized as you could. But then you ran into counters and into other attacks... There isn't much to say about the other attacks, you just let yourself hit by em. But if you want to bait counters, try to empty jump a bit or just jump more in general. Don't only jump if you're going for attacks. You want to bait ike to think you're gonna throw an aerial and then if he airdodges/counters, boom. free punish. Over all, stop getting hit by his slow moves.
After looking at Match Two: Well look at that. It wasn't a perfect performance but you really improved mid-set. Good job!
Oh Boy, the second half of the Little Mac-Match was painful to watch... The first half was soooo beautiful, but then you ran into his attacks like you did in the first Ike-match. You ran into his counters especially. Don't always try to get maximum damage against people who love pressing down B. Just don't. Rather approach with empty jumps to bait a counter to get a much more effective punish.

Vs. Fox 2: Once again, arguably our worst MU. I'll give him that his perfect pivot movements looked clean, but he used those miles away from you. When he actually tried to approach with those, you got him quite many times (although he got some bairs which were looking clean), like during match one when you took out his stock for it. You did your best and you could've capitalized on many more spots, but dealing with fox is hard as G&W. That's just it.

Vs. Yoshi: Like the commentator said: This Yoshi player was very agressive (rofl at that commentator's curse).And you baited him at many parts wonderfully, especially in the beginning. When he started playing defensively you had a bit of trouble getting in (you relied more on him getting in), but eventually he went into you and boom, win.

Sooo, after sorting out the situational stuff, time to come to a conclusion: You have problems against counters. Try to bait them with (empty) jumps or faint attacks.
Unless I am drunk, I saw you never off-stage (and if you actually were, very rarely). You want to go off-stage. Look at that first Little Mac-stock.
If you need to go in, learn to space. You don't want to go inside your opponent after you hit his shield. Try a retreating fair/bair to gain some distance after your attack.
Besides that, try to connect an up-B after a nair. extra damage is always good.
That's it from me. Hope I could be helpful.

Thank you so much! I did notice the counter issue, the fact I was trying to approach Little Mac unsafely even though I was ahead, and my poor aerial spacing when I took notes on the matches. But I didn't notice a lot of your other observations, e.g. my lack of edgeguarding attempts. Thanks a lot for pointing that out, because I need to remember that that's one of the areas g&w is best in. Thanks again dude!

 

[G-Guy]

Hey guys, I finally started to play FG again an I squared off against a great Ness right off the bat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBaAQ5SW8l0

I'd love to know what you guys have to say about my G&W. I love the character so much and any suggestions and criticism is highly appreciated! :-)

 

[Furret24]

I wasn't sure if this belonged here, but I thought I'd share this anyways.

I was playing some matches against my brother Yoshister a while back. I ended up getting two really good key kills. Hope you guys enjoy.

 

[Yoshister]

I wasn't sure if this belonged here, but I thought I'd share this anyways.

I was playing some matches against my brother Yoshister a while back. I ended up getting two really good key kills. Hope you guys enjoy.

I'm still upset.

 

[CostLow]

Hey guys, I finally started to play FG again an I squared off against a great Ness right off the bat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBaAQ5SW8l0

I'd love to know what you guys have to say about my G&W. I love the character so much and any suggestions and criticism is highly appreciated! :-)

Awesome finish. I'm just not a great G&W so I'm not sure what to tell you about your overall gameplay. Looks pretty solid to me though. G&W is just hard to win with from my experience.

 

[Furret24]

User name: Furret24
In-Game name: FlatZoner
3DS Friend Code: 5386-7994-1390
(Wii U) Nintendo Network ID: Dinoandallen1
Country of Residence: Antarctica USA
Palette Colour: Dark Green
Message: I'll get that 9 eventually.

I'm a scrubby solo Game and Watch main that wishes to be good at Smash some day. I think some critique from far superior Game and Watch mains would do me some good. I saved some FG replays of mine below. Outside of using too many dash attacks and dairs while not utilizing grabs and dtilt, is there anything else I need to work on?

Me vs Yoshister's Jigglypuff
Me vs A Lucas on FG
Me vs A Scrubby Luigi on FG
Me vs A Samus on FG
An FG Teams Match I did a While Back

My apologies for not having having any replays of actually good players.

 

[Rizen]

Is this where I have my video critiqued?
vs Mega Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fkLlBP3j5s
I started playing around with G&W again and am getting better but never had official training. Any critiques/advice is welcomed Thanks.

 

[SeanS]

Is this where I have my video critiqued?
vs Mega Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fkLlBP3j5s
I started playing around with G&W again and am getting better but never had official training. Any critiques/advice is welcomed Thanks.

My immediate reaction after about 30 seconds in is that you have no platform pressure. You elect for ground moves when they are completely and utterly inappropriate instead of opting for nair on shield or reactive up B after a shield drop.

A strange tendency to throw out jab with no spacing, and worse yet, dtilt as well (this move is very punishable and overused by new G&Ws).

Blanking dash attack into a held out shield is a no-no, unless you space the absolute end of the animation into shield and then follow up with a jab.

Falling with a nair into the ground is unsafe unless you get the majority of the animation out so that the fish will have hitboxes on the ground. Even then, it is decidedly unoptimal in a lot of situations. The better alternative is to re-space yourself and not attack without some kind of a read (if someone rushes you down as you try to reposition, pivot into ftilt or fsmash).

Drop through platforms better. At 1:54ish, Mega Man charges up a blatant down smash and you run away instead of punishing it.



If you want a good idea of how this matchup plays at a higher level on both ends (skip the first game if you just want to see G&W playing competently), check out this set:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNZKGy4XADc

 

[Rizen]

S SeanS thanks; I'll work on that stuff. I tend to revert to how Brawl G&W played with things like Dtilt.

 

[SeanS]

S SeanS thanks; I'll work on that stuff. I tend to revert to how Brawl G&W played with things like Dtilt.

He is a different character this time around, so the transition can be tough - good luck!

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Pretty sure this is the right thread but anyways I'd like some critiqued. (Hopefully this goes better than it did in the doc threads where I still have yet to have anyone reply.)
https://youtu.be/9mou7-uVuy4
https://youtu.be/CtoI9IB2rAM

First one I won second one I got dededestroyed. If you need anymore videos I can get upload some.

 

[SeanS]

VIDEO 1

At about 9 seconds in, you down throw to up smash with no reason. This series of moves is typically used when you have a hard read on someone trying to mash out a quick aerial (usu. neutral air from Mario, Yoshi, etc.) as they expect you to **** up a dthrow > nair timing. You should have simply thrown to nair instead.

The suicide was terrible, but we all mess up like that every now and then.

Never dthrow to judge, it is bad. You could have naired and he could have escaped. Since you keep doing this, it is hard for me to take your play seriously.

1:01, you had a free dash attack opening and had absolutely no reason to up smash. You were very wrong to think he would fall into you.

In general, you seem to have a tendency to play an air game when a ground game is much more effective. You would benefit from dash attacking, mixing up into dash grab, etc. instead of blanking raw fairs into an opponent (and if you do that, time it with a sourspot so you can jab after).

1:45 is the biggest indictment of your throw followup abilities, even more than the judge spam. You did absolutely nothing here. Fortunately for you, your opponent was super dumb and teleported into an up smash.

around 2:00, seriously, you do no dash attacks ever. This is one of G&W's best moves. You need to start using it.

Against any proper Mewtwo, you will find that Shadow Ball is used mostly as a punish in this matchup and isn't really thrown out, so your win condition was quite specific to the poor play of your opponent. Keep this in mind as you continue to play this matchup.

VIDEO 2

Absolutely terrible opening. You duck for no reason, fail to get a free dash attack (again), throw out a raw fair with no spacing at a bad part of your jump, and then land a jab only to not continue it. Then, after getting jabbed yourself, you fall into a raw gordo.

To punish Dedede's up b landing, jump and use an aerial. Do not simply run away from it. If you are within range while jumping, jump dodge and then use an aerial.

Around 0:26, you do fair to jab. Do this more, and learn to also sourspot the fair so you can jab after more easily (this is somewhat safe on shield, character-dependently)

0:30, when people lose ledge invincibility, threaten dash attack. Another example of how you will improve if you actually use this move. You are covering absolutely no ledge getup options, either, so the play here was totally unacceptable.

Up smash is not really an approach, it is kind of a counter / read move. Don't try to run up and throw it out all of the time.

0:46, again, no dash attack. It's like this move is completely unknown to you.

0:48, no pummel.

1:14, space before you fair.

1:22, what were you thinking? Go for the ledge grab and be safe!

1:33... I don't think you should try to save Dedede when you stage spike him.

Around 1:50, you keep getting hit by gordo (no shield, attack against it, anything), then you grab him only to do a delayed pummel with no throw. Self explanatory.

At 1:53, you fall on the ground, get taunted, and don't even go for an attack. You just duck and spam judge way later.


OVERALL

I think you have a long way to go as a player, but a simple step to success for you can go a long way right now. That's to start dash attacking and realizing that this move will open up a ton of options for you in every fight. Good luck learning it!

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

VIDEO 1

At about 9 seconds in, you down throw to up smash with no reason. This series of moves is typically used when you have a hard read on someone trying to mash out a quick aerial (usu. neutral air from Mario, Yoshi, etc.) as they expect you to **** up a dthrow > nair timing. You should have simply thrown to nair instead.

The suicide was terrible, but we all mess up like that every now and then.

Never dthrow to judge, it is bad. You could have naired and he could have escaped. Since you keep doing this, it is hard for me to take your play seriously.

1:01, you had a free dash attack opening and had absolutely no reason to up smash. You were very wrong to think he would fall into you.

In general, you seem to have a tendency to play an air game when a ground game is much more effective. You would benefit from dash attacking, mixing up into dash grab, etc. instead of blanking raw fairs into an opponent (and if you do that, time it with a sourspot so you can jab after).

1:45 is the biggest indictment of your throw followup abilities, even more than the judge spam. You did absolutely nothing here. Fortunately for you, your opponent was super dumb and teleported into an up smash.

around 2:00, seriously, you do no dash attacks ever. This is one of G&W's best moves. You need to start using it.

Against any proper Mewtwo, you will find that Shadow Ball is used mostly as a punish in this matchup and isn't really thrown out, so your win condition was quite specific to the poor play of your opponent. Keep this in mind as you continue to play this matchup.

VIDEO 2

Absolutely terrible opening. You duck for no reason, fail to get a free dash attack (again), throw out a raw fair with no spacing at a bad part of your jump, and then land a jab only to not continue it. Then, after getting jabbed yourself, you fall into a raw gordo.

To punish Dedede's up b landing, jump and use an aerial. Do not simply run away from it. If you are within range while jumping, jump dodge and then use an aerial.

Around 0:26, you do fair to jab. Do this more, and learn to also sourspot the fair so you can jab after more easily (this is somewhat safe on shield, character-dependently)

0:30, when people lose ledge invincibility, threaten dash attack. Another example of how you will improve if you actually use this move. You are covering absolutely no ledge getup options, either, so the play here was totally unacceptable.

Up smash is not really an approach, it is kind of a counter / read move. Don't try to run up and throw it out all of the time.

0:46, again, no dash attack. It's like this move is completely unknown to you.

0:48, no pummel.

1:14, space before you fair.

1:22, what were you thinking? Go for the ledge grab and be safe!

1:33... I don't think you should try to save Dedede when you stage spike him.

Around 1:50, you keep getting hit by gordo (no shield, attack against it, anything), then you grab him only to do a delayed pummel with no throw. Self explanatory.

At 1:53, you fall on the ground, get taunted, and don't even go for an attack. You just duck and spam judge way later.


OVERALL

I think you have a long way to go as a player, but a simple step to success for you can go a long way right now. That's to start dash attacking and realizing that this move will open up a ton of options for you in every fight. Good luck learning it!

(Incoming Johns) a lot of these things were miss inputs such as down throw to up smash I was trying to up tilt. And I probably should be more of a ground fighter. I should probably stop going for so many down throw hammers though they have come in handy. And the only reason I don't dash attack much is because I thought dash attacks weren't good but I guess game and watches is pretty good. But something that these replays don't show is how good I am at reading opponents and getting my bucket filled a bit. And the saving dedede thing wasn't intended (I'm sure you knew that though) and I got kinda mad when it happened. But anyways thanks for actually responding. (unlike the doctor Mario's) though it was a bit harsh but then again that's what critiqing is.

 

[Hyper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-u4a9_gRE
Any tips for my scrub GnW?(Also recommend muting commentary)

Also would setting cstick to tilt be better for GnW?

 

[SeanS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-u4a9_gRE
Any tips for my scrub GnW?(Also recommend muting commentary)

Also would setting cstick to tilt be better for GnW?

All ****ing right, a bracket G&W that wants tips. Be sure to join the skype group!

What were the stage banning rules? Electing to go T&C on game 1 is suboptimal for sure.

In the beginning, you go for grabs way too much. You should have stuck to dash attacking or mixing up with aerials.

Remember that you can Up B through projectiles. At about 0:54 you could have punished Yoshi for throwing an egg at you and possibly got a fair chase scenario.

At just above a minute of play, I can already tell that throwing grab out in this MU is definitely your biggest problem. You need to recognize that this move does not have a lot of range unless it is pivoted, and Yoshi is not a character you can really pivot grab against because of the b reverse he has.

1:12, what the **** is this? Don't just land into Yoshi like that. You could have easily regained stage control. And you didn't even throw out an aerial when going in! This was just completely braindead of you.

1:18, threw out judge.

1:24, you died in this scenario because you did your nair too high. You want to get it near the upper tip in these scenarios so you are safe. And, additionally, not landing all of the hits (if you so choose / must) can set up some nasty, albeit theoretically unsafe, vortex scenarios which can really reward you for taking risks.

Good foxtrotting - you should use it more in actual combat as well.

2:35, threw out judge. Took 11%.

I'm just generally getting the sense in this game 1 that you don't know how to respect Yoshi's b reverse. It's *much* easier said than done, particularly at the top level, but you are just getting decimated by it, particularly because of your interest in going for grabs all of the time. You can opt to spot dodge and jab punish or go for a preemptive aerial.

3:25, just throwing out upsmash like that with no reads or pressure was pitiful (the third time was the big error, and then you exacerbated it by quickly doing it THREE MORE TIMES in the middle of nowhere after you got hit for it... and then keep going for constant streams of up smashes afterwards anyway!).

You need to be willing to not go for blatantly obvious kill methods and mix up what you're doing. Keep going for dash attacks, get Yoshi offstage, and try to edgeguard him. And if you can't, punish him getting back to the stage somehow. And if you can't, just get whatever hits you can until there's an opening. That's how high level play works. You can't just expect to smash people freely.

4:10, wasted edgeguard opportunity by chefing (though it is T&C, so your options are limited; that said, you could have done some other things for sure)

That was one of the stupidest endings I've seen with this character. You did something completely suboptimal and won with it... but a win is a win. Your opponent had no idea what to do and made the foolish decision to recover straight to the ledge when a stream of **** was being thrown at him (no top level Yoshi would ever do this lmao). Also, nair kills are really rare. so props to that.

Game 2...

Your opponent CP'd to DL. Great for you - he's pretty dumb!

If you open with a grab against Yoshi at zero percent, you need to Up B. You got hit for going for utilt.

Good going for the up smash read off the grab (though I'm surprised he fell into it after you spammed it).

5:15, ???????? What was your thought process here?

5:24 is a great example of why generally you should not be using Chef to waste an edgeguard scenario, as well as 5:45.

You should learn to percent read and know when throw combos will or will not work intuitively.

6:36 is yet another example of why you need to improve your throw game. Chain grabs don't exist in this game! Go for something realistic!

7:00, when Yoshi misses a grab like that, this is a time when you actually *should* go for a grab. You could have converted more damage off of his mistake. Fortunately, you do that the next time he messes up like that.

7:40, don't throw out fair like that without a read. It is not safe on shield unless you sourspot it with great precision and jab right after (and even then, it's not too safe).

7:55, dash attack would be the proper response to this edgeguard scenario. If he could come back at all, you could back air for a clean kill.

Bad key at the end. You need a read on the opponent and their positioning.

Game 3...

The Pikachu switch is odd for sure, as it's definitely not a better matchup against G&W.

BF and FD are kind of equally good choices in this scenario. For the benefits you gain on BF, he gains some if he is *super* proficient with the quick attack stuff. I personally feel that BF is the right choice, but your decision here isn't unreasonable or wrong at all.

Please, don't throw out bucket like that randomly. Be safe.

12:39, threw out judge.

12:55, no nair?

I feel that you are throwing out bucket too much and that a truly good player would exploit this terribly by jumping up and hitting you with an aerial. It looks really predictable and unsafe. Even this player is not falling for it.

14:05, threw out judge. DId it again shortly after.

14:24, I want to see more stuff like this dair in your play. Don't just keep throwing out bucket.

Excellent up smash in the end. You want reads like that, not just up smash throwouts.

Game 4...

Back to Yoshi, which is the right decision on his part. And you don't have platforms to back you up this time. Fortunately, it's better than T&C, though.

15:15, terrible throw. If you are going to go for an up throw, you need to Up B. I don't recommend this against Yoshi in general, however; this is a fastfaller throw combo.

Another absolutely silly Chef kill.

Good job not getting shield broke by the Down B.

16:36, threw out judge. Did it again at 17:00 and got punished for it.





OVERALL

Congratulations on joining the tourney winning G&W club. I would really like to see you on the Skype group!

I do not think you're a bad player at all - you know how to foxtrot and can clearly fight your way through decent players with money on the line (?). But I do think you have considerable room to grow, and that you have the potential to really take advantage of what I say.

Your biggest problem by far, and one that will get brutally exploited in high level play, is your tendency to throw out grabs recklessly. Dash grabs do not have a lot of range and will get you zoned super easily. If you are afraid of exclusively relying on dash attacks, the logical thing to do is to incorporate an aerial game into what you're doing. You don't go for sourspot fairs into jab or empty hops into a ground move.

Your up smash usage is rather average. You try to make this move a battle of attrition for your opponent, whereby you don't mind failing so much as long as you net the kill eventually. It's a very suboptimal way to take advantage of this move instead of keeping pressure on the opponent and forcing them to naturalistically fall into a well timed up smash.

At higher levels of play, you will find that Chef is a very suboptimal move, particularly if you waste an edgeguarding opportunity for it. I understand that Yoshi is frustrating to edgeguard, but you do have options - the disjoints on fair and bair can pierce eggs for you, Up B can invincibility tank them for you at certain angles, and sometimes edgeguarding Yoshi can even be done with a simple Jab 1! Consider your options - you did get punished several times for your poor edgeguarding despite occasionally getting janky pressure situations with it.

Judge is straight up terrible. I get it, you want a 9 on stream, or just a bull**** win, but it will always hurt you as a player in the long run. It is a laggy move with extremely inconsistent payoff. You have other moves that are very strong per each hit and give you favorable vortex scenarios - use them!

In summary, I think you can really develop as a player if you are more concerted in what you do and don't throw out moves so recklessly. You have a good start fundamentally and are probably intelligent enough to not waste it. Join the skype group, keep playing, and be sure to seek out higher level players as well!

 

[Hyper]

Thanks for the tips. As for the 5:15 question, that was an error on my end. I pushed X too early so only A inputted.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

All ****ing right, a bracket G&W that wants tips. Be sure to join the skype group!

What were the stage banning rules? Electing to go T&C on game 1 is suboptimal for sure.

In the beginning, you go for grabs way too much. You should have stuck to dash attacking or mixing up with aerials.

Remember that you can Up B through projectiles. At about 0:54 you could have punished Yoshi for throwing an egg at you and possibly got a fair chase scenario.

At just above a minute of play, I can already tell that throwing grab out in this MU is definitely your biggest problem. You need to recognize that this move does not have a lot of range unless it is pivoted, and Yoshi is not a character you can really pivot grab against because of the b reverse he has.

1:12, what the **** is this? Don't just land into Yoshi like that. You could have easily regained stage control. And you didn't even throw out an aerial when going in! This was just completely braindead of you.

1:18, threw out judge.

1:24, you died in this scenario because you did your nair too high. You want to get it near the upper tip in these scenarios so you are safe. And, additionally, not landing all of the hits (if you so choose / must) can set up some nasty, albeit theoretically unsafe, vortex scenarios which can really reward you for taking risks.

Good foxtrotting - you should use it more in actual combat as well.

2:35, threw out judge. Took 11%.

I'm just generally getting the sense in this game 1 that you don't know how to respect Yoshi's b reverse. It's *much* easier said than done, particularly at the top level, but you are just getting decimated by it, particularly because of your interest in going for grabs all of the time. You can opt to spot dodge and jab punish or go for a preemptive aerial.

3:25, just throwing out upsmash like that with no reads or pressure was pitiful (the third time was the big error, and then you exacerbated it by quickly doing it THREE MORE TIMES in the middle of nowhere after you got hit for it... and then keep going for constant streams of up smashes afterwards anyway!).

You need to be willing to not go for blatantly obvious kill methods and mix up what you're doing. Keep going for dash attacks, get Yoshi offstage, and try to edgeguard him. And if you can't, punish him getting back to the stage somehow. And if you can't, just get whatever hits you can until there's an opening. That's how high level play works. You can't just expect to smash people freely.

4:10, wasted edgeguard opportunity by chefing (though it is T&C, so your options are limited; that said, you could have done some other things for sure)

That was one of the stupidest endings I've seen with this character. You did something completely suboptimal and won with it... but a win is a win. Your opponent had no idea what to do and made the foolish decision to recover straight to the ledge when a stream of **** was being thrown at him (no top level Yoshi would ever do this lmao). Also, nair kills are really rare. so props to that.

Game 2...

Your opponent CP'd to DL. Great for you - he's pretty dumb!

If you open with a grab against Yoshi at zero percent, you need to Up B. You got hit for going for utilt.

Good going for the up smash read off the grab (though I'm surprised he fell into it after you spammed it).

5:15, ???????? What was your thought process here?

5:24 is a great example of why generally you should not be using Chef to waste an edgeguard scenario, as well as 5:45.

You should learn to percent read and know when throw combos will or will not work intuitively.

6:36 is yet another example of why you need to improve your throw game. Chain grabs don't exist in this game! Go for something realistic!

7:00, when Yoshi misses a grab like that, this is a time when you actually *should* go for a grab. You could have converted more damage off of his mistake. Fortunately, you do that the next time he messes up like that.

7:40, don't throw out fair like that without a read. It is not safe on shield unless you sourspot it with great precision and jab right after (and even then, it's not too safe).

7:55, dash attack would be the proper response to this edgeguard scenario. If he could come back at all, you could back air for a clean kill.

Bad key at the end. You need a read on the opponent and their positioning.

Game 3...

The Pikachu switch is odd for sure, as it's definitely not a better matchup against G&W.

BF and FD are kind of equally good choices in this scenario. For the benefits you gain on BF, he gains some if he is *super* proficient with the quick attack stuff. I personally feel that BF is the right choice, but your decision here isn't unreasonable or wrong at all.

Please, don't throw out bucket like that randomly. Be safe.

12:39, threw out judge.

12:55, no nair?

I feel that you are throwing out bucket too much and that a truly good player would exploit this terribly by jumping up and hitting you with an aerial. It looks really predictable and unsafe. Even this player is not falling for it.

14:05, threw out judge. DId it again shortly after.

14:24, I want to see more stuff like this dair in your play. Don't just keep throwing out bucket.

Excellent up smash in the end. You want reads like that, not just up smash throwouts.

Game 4...

Back to Yoshi, which is the right decision on his part. And you don't have platforms to back you up this time. Fortunately, it's better than T&C, though.

15:15, terrible throw. If you are going to go for an up throw, you need to Up B. I don't recommend this against Yoshi in general, however; this is a fastfaller throw combo.

Another absolutely silly Chef kill.

Good job not getting shield broke by the Down B.

16:36, threw out judge. Did it again at 17:00 and got punished for it.





OVERALL

Congratulations on joining the tourney winning G&W club. I would really like to see you on the Skype group!

I do not think you're a bad player at all - you know how to foxtrot and can clearly fight your way through decent players with money on the line (?). But I do think you have considerable room to grow, and that you have the potential to really take advantage of what I say.

Your biggest problem by far, and one that will get brutally exploited in high level play, is your tendency to throw out grabs recklessly. Dash grabs do not have a lot of range and will get you zoned super easily. If you are afraid of exclusively relying on dash attacks, the logical thing to do is to incorporate an aerial game into what you're doing. You don't go for sourspot fairs into jab or empty hops into a ground move.

Your up smash usage is rather average. You try to make this move a battle of attrition for your opponent, whereby you don't mind failing so much as long as you net the kill eventually. It's a very suboptimal way to take advantage of this move instead of keeping pressure on the opponent and forcing them to naturalistically fall into a well timed up smash.

At higher levels of play, you will find that Chef is a very suboptimal move, particularly if you waste an edgeguarding opportunity for it. I understand that Yoshi is frustrating to edgeguard, but you do have options - the disjoints on fair and bair can pierce eggs for you, Up B can invincibility tank them for you at certain angles, and sometimes edgeguarding Yoshi can even be done with a simple Jab 1! Consider your options - you did get punished several times for your poor edgeguarding despite occasionally getting janky pressure situations with it.

Judge is straight up terrible. I get it, you want a 9 on stream, or just a bull**** win, but it will always hurt you as a player in the long run. It is a laggy move with extremely inconsistent payoff. You have other moves that are very strong per each hit and give you favorable vortex scenarios - use them!

In summary, I think you can really develop as a player if you are more concerted in what you do and don't throw out moves so recklessly. You have a good start fundamentally and are probably intelligent enough to not waste it. Join the skype group, keep playing, and be sure to seek out higher level players as well!

I get that judge isn't the most consistent move but it's not terrible. And I'm not saying it should be thrown out there at random. You can rapid jab on the ledge and combo it to a judge. You can use it as a punish if they use a move with lots of end lag. If you read an air dodge you could punish with a judge. It CAN true combo off of down throw but the percents that it works are very strict. 2 can cause tripping so you can follow it up with almost anything. 3 deals lots of shield damage. 6 is ok at killing. 7 can make fruit come and you can heal 4%. 8 can freeze so you could maybe kill with an up air when they thaw out or something like that. 9 is an insta kill and can completely turn a game around. 4 and 5 aren't terrible but they're not really good either. Really the only bad one is 1. Overall it should be used when you're desperate for a kill or if you're at lower percents and won't get punished as hard. If it was terrible GimR wouldn't use it.

 

[SeanS]

I get that judge isn't the most consistent move but it's not terrible

Nah, it is. It comes out super slowly, is instantly punishable the vast majority of the time, and produces inconsistent results by its very definition. If you want to be a consistently good player, it is a blatantly suboptimal means of attack.

You can rapid jab on the ledge and combo it to a judge

against bad players.

You can use it as a punish if they use a move with lots of end lag

You can also use your smashes as a punish.

It CAN true combo off of down throw but the percents that it works are very strict

Nair is also consistent and the percents it works at are not very strict.

Overall it should be used when you're desperate for a kill

If you are good, you will not be desperate for a kill.

If it was terrible GimR wouldn't use it

GIMR is not really the best G&W out there. He lost to Lorenzo in G&W dittos 2-1 and I don't think GIMR even plays G&W now.

While not a bad player by any means, he certainly benefits reputation wise from being the owner of a top stream. Meanwhile, Regi is hardly known outside of Mexico and the G&W skype group, my region's streaming is inconsistent / unpopular as of now, and all the other solid G&Ws I know don't really get exposure outside of locals and make no effort to promote their reputation.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

"against bad players." So they're bad if they get hit by a true combo? Ok.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Nah, it is. It comes out super slowly, is instantly punishable the vast majority of the time, and produces inconsistent results by its very definition. If you want to be a consistently good player, it is a blatantly suboptimal means of attack.



against bad players.



You can also use your smashes as a punish.



Nair is also consistent and the percents it works at are not very strict.



If you are good, you will not be desperate for a kill.



GIMR is not really the best G&W out there. He lost to Lorenzo in G&W dittos 2-1 and I don't think GIMR even plays G&W now.

While not a bad player by any means, he certainly benefits reputation wise from being the owner of a top stream. Meanwhile, Regi is hardly known outside of Mexico and the G&W skype group, my region's streaming is inconsistent / unpopular as of now, and all the other solid G&Ws I know don't really get exposure outside of locals and make no effort to promote their reputation.

I didn't say GimR was the best game and watch main I just brought him up cuz he's a well know game and watch main who sometimes uses the judge hammer

 

[steuben]

"against bad players." So they're bad if they get hit by a true combo? Ok.

you're being sarcastic, but in a way you're right. you aren't a bad player if you are caught in a true combo, but you're a bad player if you get led into one. only bad players are going to recover into your jab.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

you're being sarcastic, but in a way you're right. you aren't a bad player if you are caught in a true combo, but you're a bad player if you get led into one. only bad players are going to recover into your jab.

Yes I was being sarcastic. But what do you mean "recover into your jab." Have you seen what this is? The initiator of the jab cancel has to have their back facing the ledge because they fall off the ledge which gives them the opportunity to throw out an attack. So this could be done by going for a regular get up and then if they're waiting by the ledge you could catch them with a jab.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Also GimR still uses game and watch it seems he's just been using other characters too. Cuz on VGbootcamps channel there was a set uploaded 4 days ago with GimR using Game and watch.

 

[steuben]

if you do a regular get-up off the ledge, "a good player" is not going to sit there and take a jab to the face.

 

[Folie]

The only "true combos" leading into judge are incredibly situational (ex: 35-38% on sheik, which im p sure is one of the only if not the only "true" dthrow to judge combo out there and even that can possibly be escaped from). Keep in mind that just because a combo is "true" in training mode doesn't mean it's actually true because training mode does not account for combo DI, which means a lot more for g&w dthrow combos than some people think it does (see: Fox as a character, p sure the uthrow combo at low %'s is one of the only ones he can't escape despite multiple followups being "true" in training mode).

To use another move as comparison, dthrow to fair is faster and has a much easier hitbox to hit with and lingers better as well, but even that is often reliable and can often be avoided. If this combo often doesn't work, I don't know why people insist dthrow to judge does.

The bottom line is, if you land dthrow judge, chances are
1. you read your opponent or (more likely)
2. your opponent is not combo DI'ing your dthrow and trying to jump or airdodge out of a followup like they should be

as far as Gimr goes, he has solid fundamentals and a solid punish game, but I can see a lot of lack of character knowledge in his games when he does things like strike to smashville on the first game (should usually be your first ban), practically spam dtilt in neutral (literally more laggy and punishable than a couple of our smashes despite a fast startup), and exclusively usmash when opponents are above him rather than attempting to use other tools (ex: aerials and dash attack) to vortex them for more % or even a kill. Wouldn't dream of calling him bad, but not someone I would advise setting a standard to and using as an example of top-level G&W play

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

The only "true combos" leading into judge are incredibly situational (ex: 35-38% on sheik, which im p sure is one of the only if not the only "true" dthrow to judge combo out there and even that can possibly be escaped from). Keep in mind that just because a combo is "true" in training mode doesn't mean it's actually true because training mode does not account for combo DI, which means a lot more for g&w dthrow combos than some people think it does (see: Fox as a character, p sure the uthrow combo at low %'s is one of the only ones he can't escape despite multiple followups being "true" in training mode).

To use another move as comparison, dthrow to fair is faster and has a much easier hitbox to hit with and lingers better as well, but even that is often reliable and can often be avoided. If this combo often doesn't work, I don't know why people insist dthrow to judge does.

The bottom line is, if you land dthrow judge, chances are
1. you read your opponent or (more likely)
2. your opponent is not combo DI'ing your dthrow and trying to jump or airdodge out of a followup like they should be

as far as Gimr goes, he has solid fundamentals and a solid punish game, but I can see a lot of lack of character knowledge in his games when he does things like strike to smashville on the first game (should usually be your first ban), practically spam dtilt in neutral (literally more laggy and punishable than a couple of our smashes despite a fast startup), and exclusively usmash when opponents are above him rather than attempting to use other tools (ex: aerials and dash attack) to vortex them for more % or even a kill. Wouldn't dream of calling him bad, but not someone I would advise setting a standard to and using as an example of top-level G&W play

But the GimZ alwayz winZ.

 

[G-Guy]

had some nice momentum against a great Falco on FG today, which got totally busted by a 1...

for your pleasure:

 

[Rizen]

Can someone please critique my G&W?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmlfjqsHrVQ
I don't know the finer points of G&W's combos so this is me winging it.

 

[SeanS]

Can someone please critique my G&W?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmlfjqsHrVQ

I don't know the finer points of G&W's combos so this is me winging it.

I'll do this assuming you're not a G&W main and such, and just touch on the major issues in your play.


Nair is the standard dthrow followup. You will have to react to DI (usually away, but you never know) on fastfallers like Fox, and character weights / percents can mess around with it a little, but it is a true combo for the most part.


You seem to Up B a lot for no particular reason. Perhaps you're feeling pressured? I don't know, but your choice is severely limiting your landing options and making you fundamentally predictable / punishable. Your opponent is not particularly skilled, so this isn't too evident, but this will limit you at higher levels of play.


When you try to stage spike with bair, anticipate where your opponent will be going in their ledge recovery process and don't just throw it out defensively. In addition to letting you hit your opponent decisively, this also lets you move them very close to the stage's edge while they are in hitlag, decreasing their probability of teching your kill attempt.

At 2:02, you probably could have killed with an up air off of this grab (though I play by instinct and don't memorize percents, personally). Even if you couldn't, it would have been worth a try, or perhaps a read of a poor choice of air dodge instead of jump (thus leading into the kill uair anyway).

You can also use your Up B to stage spike. The knockback is quite good for this, even at low percents.

Against poor Fox players, if you sense a uair coming in your direction, you can outrange it with a dair, potentially leading to a kill at high percents.

Do not get up to the stage with an attack like you do in 3:10! You can be shielded and grabbed.

For low percent Fox, your best options out of throw are uthrow > Up B or dthrow > jab.

In general, Chef is a very bad move and you should not use it much, least of all to edgeguard. Any good player will take advantage of you in this scenario. You have some of the best edgeguarding aerials in the game, complete with lingering hitboxes. Use them!

There are plenty of other small things that I can go over, but I hope this sets you on the right track. And if you want to get a sense of how competitive G&W is played, check my videos out; or if you are truly serious about using this character, come to the Skype group.

 

[moofpi]

Come On and Ban #41
Winner's Round 32
Gpik (G&W) vs Superoven (Luigi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6huPuOArys

Winner's Semis
KossisMoss (G&W) vs Rice (Mario)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-85kG2Q7zuA

 

[pepi1197]

Just to ask it, why did Gpik go for dthrow->utilt->usmash instead of utilt->nair at 1:44 in the first vid?

Super clean movement and good use of nair for platform control though.

 

[G-Guy]

mmmmm, that up smash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKrylcq1B5c

 

[Lufos]

Hey!

I'm pretty new at G&W but I just find him so much fun to play. Fought a good player on for glory for a couple of matches today and thought that I'll save these replays and show them to you guys so you might have some comments on where to improve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61NBAPlwZpE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxloKCQKYmw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edOkU3xSoe8

EDIT:
Third up

 

[MasterChef Doesn't Cook]

Hey!

I'm pretty new at G&W but I just find him so much fun to play. Fought a good player on for glory for a couple of matches today and thought that I'll save these replays and show them to you guys so you might have some comments on where to improve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61NBAPlwZpE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxloKCQKYmw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edOkU3xSoe8

EDIT:
Third up

What's up? I don't have too much time to write up a full review of the footage, but I'll get what I can in here!

-I noticed a lot of d-tilt. While initially it may seem like a better option than jab due to it's range, it should only be used in a scenario where you know it will hit, mess up a short hop or Peach float, or when they are a distance away where jab will not do a better job of covering them. It is very laggy at the end, so it can be punished rather easily out of shield.

-You're landing in with aerials on shield very close to the opponent. Without proper spacing, this will allow your opponent to easily just hold shield and wait until you throw out a move. Either space with the very tip of bair hitting shield, or mix up by landing far away with an option ready when they have to pursue.

-A lot of full hop fair in neutral. It's not a multi-hit move, and takes a long time for it to end. An opponent can catch on to this and punish accordingly.

-Try being a little more patient in neutral. A lot of what I saw in Game 1 was damage he got when you threw out an option randomly, rather than reacting to him. He was waiting for you to mess up in neutral, and punished accordingly. G&W can do a lot to mess up Mario in neutral, he can bair out his short hops, and Up Smash if Mario lands too close with an aerial. Try to be a little more patient and once you see how your opponent reacts to certain situations, punish accordingly and ride the momentum. Empty foxtrots can do a good job of baiting out options from an opponent.

-When your opponent double jumps out of your first nair after dthrow, try not to follow up with up B (This happened in game three). It has a very small chance of hitting in that instance, and now you are above Sheik (aka bad position). If you are going to follow up with up B, do it immediately only if the follow up looks guaranteed.

-You had some nice bair gimps on that Mario, good job there! That's what wins the match-up for us. But be wary of doing that against Sheik, her recovery requires a bit more care (you got hit by her up B when you attempted to hit her)

-Work on punishing ledge get up a little better. Once in game three you stood at ledge holding shield facing the opposite direction, and then got hit by ledge attack anyway. It was probably a fear thing, or predicting the wrong option, but judge be careful of not even trying to cover ledge options.

Overall, decent job! You knew how to gimp that Mario, which was key to winning that match-up. Just work on some overall fundamentals, and you should see an improvement in your game!

If anyone else has better/more advice to give, please do! I was in a bit of a rush when I wrote this.

 

[Lufos]

What's up? I don't have too much time to write up a full review of the footage, but I'll get what I can in here!

-I noticed a lot of d-tilt. While initially it may seem like a better option than jab due to it's range, it should only be used in a scenario where you know it will hit, mess up a short hop or Peach float, or when they are a distance away where jab will not do a better job of covering them. It is very laggy at the end, so it can be punished rather easily out of shield.

-You're landing in with aerials on shield very close to the opponent. Without proper spacing, this will allow your opponent to easily just hold shield and wait until you throw out a move. Either space with the very tip of bair hitting shield, or mix up by landing far away with an option ready when they have to pursue.

-A lot of full hop fair in neutral. It's not a multi-hit move, and takes a long time for it to end. An opponent can catch on to this and punish accordingly.

-Try being a little more patient in neutral. A lot of what I saw in Game 1 was damage he got when you threw out an option randomly, rather than reacting to him. He was waiting for you to mess up in neutral, and punished accordingly. G&W can do a lot to mess up Mario in neutral, he can bair out his short hops, and Up Smash if Mario lands too close with an aerial. Try to be a little more patient and once you see how your opponent reacts to certain situations, punish accordingly and ride the momentum. Empty foxtrots can do a good job of baiting out options from an opponent.

-When your opponent double jumps out of your first nair after dthrow, try not to follow up with up B (This happened in game three). It has a very small chance of hitting in that instance, and now you are above Sheik (aka bad position). If you are going to follow up with up B, do it immediately only if the follow up looks guaranteed.

-You had some nice bair gimps on that Mario, good job there! That's what wins the match-up for us. But be wary of doing that against Sheik, her recovery requires a bit more care (you got hit by her up B when you attempted to hit her)

-Work on punishing ledge get up a little better. Once in game three you stood at ledge holding shield facing the opposite direction, and then got hit by ledge attack anyway. It was probably a fear thing, or predicting the wrong option, but judge be careful of not even trying to cover ledge options.

Overall, decent job! You knew how to gimp that Mario, which was key to winning that match-up. Just work on some overall fundamentals, and you should see an improvement in your game!

If anyone else has better/more advice to give, please do! I was in a bit of a rush when I wrote this.

Thanks for that! Yeah I talked to Gucki as well and he pointed out some of your stuff as well... Especially the patience, dtilts, aerials on shield and ledge punish is what I gotta practice now. Got a tourney next week, will post replays after that again

 

[G-Guy]

I finally feel really confident with old G-dubs and I am shaking off the "roll to get away" habit that plagued me for a while. Occasionally a back-roll still slips, but they arn't always bad (at least that's what I hope XD)

Ran into an amazing Doc who really put my G&W to the limit and I'd love to hear from you guys what I can do better in order to be a little more efficient.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwGenuchDgY

Hope my G&W isn't too shabby...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I finally feel really confident with old G-dubs and I am shaking off the "roll to get away" habit that plagued me for a while. Occasionally a back-roll still slips, but they arn't always bad (at least that's what I hope XD)

Ran into an amazing Doc who really put my G&W to the limit and I'd love to hear from you guys what I can do better in order to be a little more efficient.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwGenuchDgY

Hope my G&W isn't too shabby...

Okay bro, let me tell you something:

In general, I feel you were not too keen on your opponent's habits. It seemed like you were focused on trying to make these amazing reads, but you only connected about a hand full. Making these reads without knowing your opponent enough is absolutely a bigger and deadly dice roll than usual. You also were making some scared decisions, like double air dodging into his Usmash when he Dthrowed you. You got to learn the art of doing nothing to see what the opponent wants to do or what he thinks you're gonna do. This is also present in how you played the neutral. You were a little far from the opponent when you played the neutral in the beginning and after about 3s, you guys immediately bumrushed each other. Don't do that without knowledge on him. Play more patient in the neutral and watch him. Throw out more Attacks intelligently (that means, don't do the same Retreating Bair motion over and over again. That's not a proper neutral. Not saying you did though). Another thing I find is that your spacing in this Match was a bit misguided and I can mark that up as MU inexperience. I say this because I also saw you trying to hit that doc with Fair when you were within his Usmash range that has intangible at his head. It's basically a anti air move that forces you to play old school footsies. I see tons of flaws in that doc as well and I think you could had Beaten him pretty convincing had you been more cautious in the neutral and a bit more confusing to the opponent (it seems he was reading you kinda hard). My 2 cents for now, I'm gonna edit this later and watch more.