Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[Looticforgothispassword]

*sigh* blind optimism

If I want something to happen I better believe in it, as I've been a goalkeeper in this sport I know the validity of impossible and how much a lot of small things and tidbits of knowledge affect how good you are.

Sorry, but I'm free to say whatever I want about the character, its my OPINION.
Just as its your opinion that Link has untapped potential.
And nothing is impossible, but the mathematical likelihood of something can be so small that it may as well be impossible.
You can keep trying to be the best with Link, no one's stopping you, I'm just expressing my view that you may be wasting your time, particularly when you can count the number of Link players that have actually done something significant on two hands.
PM Link has already done more in a major tourney than Melee Link has (yes, PM has had some fairly large tourneys).
Hell, if PM didn't exist, I *might* still be trying to make it work, but now that I have a better alternative, there's no reason to.

You are entitled to your opinion, I haven't flagged any messages AFAIK. You can however not expect me or anyone else take any "blind pessimism" lightly and just sit there and ignore it. See my comment as a wish, not a demand, especially considering I cannot force it. I wish that you weren't seeing the problems but instead saw the oportunites. If you don't see the oportunities I wish you to not talk down on anyone else seeing them.

I don't know if you've tried PM Link, seeing as there's currently no PAL release, but if you did you might change your mind.
He's only going to get better once they get his grapple fixed to be like Melee, and every element of the physics engine to be like Melee.

I've played, I don't really like it, link actually feels broken, he's kinda a noob-character, like brawl MK. Too much is too good. I guess they will nerf him in 2 years if people still play PM then. I don't see people play it that long though as a new smash probably attracts the same audience as PM, maybe not you, but probably a big portion of the players.

 

[BRLNK88]

If I want something to happen I better believe in it, as I've been a goalkeeper in this sport I know the validity of impossible and how much a lot of small things and tidbits of knowledge affect how good you are.


You are entitled to your opinion, I haven't flagged any messages AFAIK. You can however not expect me or anyone else take any "blind pessimism" lightly and just sit there and ignore it. See my comment as a wish, not a demand, especially considering I cannot force it. I wish that you weren't seeing the problems but instead saw the oportunites. If you don't see the oportunities I wish you to not talk down on anyone else seeing them.


I've played, I don't really like it, link actually feels broken, he's kinda a noob-character, like brawl MK. Too much is too good. I guess they will nerf him in 2 years if people still play PM then. I don't see people play it that long though as a new smash probably attracts the same audience as PM, maybe not you, but probably a big portion of the players.

Ugh, I had a long post typed out and the site crashed on me, don't feel like retyping it.
I'll just say this, Link aint broken in PM, he's better, but not broken. All he needed in Melee was some speed buffs, and he got them in PM.

 

[Bigglestheman]

Thank you guys for telling us how bad our character is! If you guys weren't here then I would have thought he was number 1 on the tier list. I thought the frame data was just a hoax until you guys confirmed it! Good to know that losing games means my character is bad and not me. If I ever lose i'll make sure to remember that i'm really unbeatable I just play Link to be nice to other people I don't want to hog all the spotlight. :masterball:

Ground Freeze:
Down-Back-LowKick

Don't tell Midway but i'll share his suuuper secret Ice Grenade fatality it's
(Hold Low Punch) Back-Back-Down-Forward (release Low Punch) make sure you're full screen or it won't work!

Mortal Kombat II comes out June 25. DON'T TELL ANYONE!

 

[Goast]

I think it really depends on the match-up. Link maybe slow at getting into the air and has slow movement in general, but he packs quite a lot of priority in his aerials. You need be aware of which characters pack more priority than you or can outspace you in the air game (Marth and Ganon comes to my mind for this). Vs. Fox, from what you say you're doing, it sounds like you're on the right track to me.

thanks, should be something to think about. Honestly I actually have never played link against a legit Ganon before. I do feel comfortable with the long range fight against mart with the bombs. I guess I should give myself a mu refresher on the boards here

I just play Link to be nice to other people I don't want to hog all the spotlight.

By playing link you ARE hogging the spotlight lol, Seriously I'm overrated in my city just because of my link

 

[Bing]

Haha oh the Link boards are silly. Truly.

For the record, I'm not intending to put Link down, however I have a hard time over looking some of the things that are... well being over looked here. Link's not a horrendous character, if he was THAT bad, I wouldn't use him at all...(Mind you I use Pichu quite a bit, but thats a different story).


Moving on like the Adults we are or soon to become for any of you minors:

Link's "Runoff"(If you can call it that) up-b ledge guard. I don't think its the most effective option in the world, but I've used it while guarding characters like Peach floating back to the stage at specific heights, Spacies doing the straight up Recovery over the ledge(Aka not sweet spotted) and a few other situatiions.

I love Link's Moon Walk into bair. I don't know why but I just love it.

I skipped a lot of this last page because again, ya'll are silly.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

You wanna know why Im silly? It's cause all the arguments that are against link kinda doesnt really seem right.

If Link's slow is a problem, isnt the actual problem with being slow that you cant control the stage/space/punish things quick enough? If a slow character got much range doesn't that kinda solve the problem by not having speed(link's the only character with both good melee range and projectile range)? Why isn't this a major flaw that makes ganon useless?

Link's recovery isn't a problem, I dunno how you can say marths recovery is better than link's especially when you look matchup by matchup, . Saying Link's recovery is bad once you go into tumble like I saw someone write is kinda noobish, wiggling good makes this problem nonexistant, you also dont want to UpB without hitting your opponent in the air, it makes you a sitting duck lol. Also how can options like throw a projectile, airdodge, bomb jumping be ignored?

If Links ability to land kills is a problem, why is it a problem, I dont really notice that other than that some link players seem to think UpB is the goto kill option. Its not, dair is the goto kill option, and the dair needs to be used in smart ways, you need to know the situations where it will land, but once you do, you'll get easy kills from 80%(45% if puff on YS). Empty dairs are stupid though, but comboing into it is almost trivial, especially against characters where its important. Bomb->dair, tech chase dair and dthrow dair are the best options.

Links grab is different and unforgiving, its not bad(though not good), there are no safe smash attacks on links shield, people can't afford to miss link with an aerial, weak hit nair -> grab pseudo-combos thanks to landing lag. Its not a glaring flaw, especially when you consider that its not safe to shield against link cause of everything that sheild pokes.

Link has IMO one of the better OoS options with bombs, quick and great range in all directions. Dunno how that can be bad, if link doesnt got a bomb in his hand then his OoS options gets worse but nair/bair OoS is still okay. This was for me a flaw until I found out that bomb OoS is exactly what I needed.

So Im pretty sure that most people are just BSing, they don't know themselves why link is bad, bad they assume a lot of stuff cause some things have happened and are trying to find explanations to the facts. Melee is a damn deep game and that means that I dont think anyone actually grasps it. And why should I switch to a better character when Im clearly not the best with my current character, what would I earn in a switch?

 

[Bing]

You wanna know why Im silly? It's cause all the arguments that are against link kinda doesnt really seem right.

If Link's slow is a problem, isnt the actual problem with being slow that you cant control the stage/space/punish things quick enough? If a slow character got much range doesn't that kinda solve the problem by not having speed(link's the only character with both good melee range and projectile range)? Why isn't this a major flaw that makes ganon useless?

Link's recovery isn't a problem, I dunno how you can say marths recovery is better than link's especially when you look matchup by matchup, . Saying Link's recovery is bad once you go into tumble like I saw someone write is kinda noobish, wiggling good makes this problem nonexistant, you also dont want to UpB without hitting your opponent in the air, it makes you a sitting duck lol. Also how can options like throw a projectile, airdodge, bomb jumping be ignored?

If Links ability to land kills is a problem, why is it a problem, I dont really notice that other than that some link players seem to think UpB is the goto kill option. Its not, dair is the goto kill option, and the dair needs to be used in smart ways, you need to know the situations where it will land, but once you do, you'll get easy kills from 80%(45% if puff on YS). Empty dairs are stupid though, but comboing into it is almost trivial, especially against characters where its important. Bomb->dair, tech chase dair and dthrow dair are the best options.

Links grab is different and unforgiving, its not bad(though not good), there are no safe smash attacks on links shield, people can't afford to miss link with an aerial, weak hit nair -> grab pseudo-combos thanks to landing lag. Its not a glaring flaw, especially when you consider that its not safe to shield against link cause of everything that sheild pokes.

Link has IMO one of the better OoS options with bombs, quick and great range in all directions. Dunno how that can be bad, if link doesnt got a bomb in his hand then his OoS options gets worse but nair/bair OoS is still okay. This was for me a flaw until I found out that bomb OoS is exactly what I needed.

So Im pretty sure that most people are just BSing, they don't know themselves why link is bad, bad they assume a lot of stuff cause some things have happened and are trying to find explanations to the facts. Melee is a damn deep game and that means that I dont think anyone actually grasps it. And why should I switch to a better character when Im clearly not the best with my current character, what would I earn in a switch?

I'm starting to think that you don't even know what you're talking about. I'm not going to bother nit-picking your whole speech, just going to pick out two small pieces and comment on those, and then move on. The two pieces shall be bolded and re-quoted.

If Links ability to land kills is a problem, why is it a problem, I dont really notice that other than that some link players seem to think UpB is the goto kill option. Its not, dair is the goto kill option, and the dair needs to be used in smart ways, you need to know the situations where it will land, but once you do, you'll get easy kills from 80%(45% if puff on YS). Empty dairs are stupid though, but comboing into it is almost trivial, especially against characters where its important. Bomb->dair, tech chase dair and dthrow dair are the best options.

In this paragraph, you literally just talked circles. You're actually speaking negatively about your own character here while trying to defend it. This entire time we have saying how Link has a problem killing characters and you go off on how dair is his goto kill move and thats its super Situational and has terrible landing lag when missed. So thanks for making our lives easier.

And why should I switch to a better character when Im clearly not the best with my current character, what would I earn in a switch?

I really don't want to get into this one. However, I think you're viewing character choice wrong. What you said, actually doesn't really make sense. if you're not the best with a certain character... okay? Character choice is dependant upon your own personal style, as an example I could never main Link because I like to be super Aggro. Therefore I use Spacies. So if your style isn't suited to main Link, then an option to strongly consider would be a character switch..I'm still having a difficult time understanding your argument.

While yes, some people don't know what the **** they're saying, just "Up-B = 50% of Link's Kill moveset", then yes, that would be accurate and unforunately, thats not whats being thrown around here. I think you're becoming overly defensive and blinded by your love for the character, and theres one thing you need to realize, the people in this thread, love this character as well, just theres a difference in how everyone views things.

 

[BRLNK88]

I'll let Bing take it from here, he probably knows more than I do anyways/is more experienced.
Y'all have fun with your Sakurai Melee Link, I'll take my JCaesar PM Link.

 

[Goast]

I am almost certain that links moonwalk + projectile/short arial is a solid counter for spacies... okay maybe not solid but definitely useful simply due to spacing.

In fact I've been combining moonwalk+ arrow. Yes 2 seemingly innefective moves into a good counter for fox. It interrupts short ariel momentum very well and together makes it hard to power-shield properly.

I wanna try more moonwalk revers utilts

By the way My whole bombdropp + airdodgebackwards + zair has still been working wonders against really aggressive fox players and I still recommend using it once in a while.

Down air is a great KO imo but it really works well as a frametrap or out of a bomb combo. I think the reason why this sounds so odd is because most characters aren't used to basing their game heavily out of projectiles but link is (or in this argument should be). So if you have trouble getting KO's with links downair it's not because it's a bad move but you're not using the setups for it. This works with falco as well. It's very hard to kill with falco without lazer and shine pressure. However most falco players know this and learn the kill setups. and I think the point Lootic is making is that it's all learning curv but in the grand scheme relative.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

In this paragraph, you literally just talked circles. You're actually speaking negatively about your own character here while trying to defend it. This entire time we have saying how Link has a problem killing characters and you go off on how dair is his goto kill move and thats its super Situational and has terrible landing lag when missed. So thanks for making our lives easier.

I don't think I've missed a bomb->dair in I don't know how long. Its really not that hard to land a bomb->dair or the other kill-combos and that's basically what I'm trying to make people understand, links kill options are there, and sure they are not straightforward, but certainly not hard nor situational neither, the opportunities can be forced and they are easy to force too. The thing about the dair is that it doesn't miss, its like landing grabs with links, there will be a lot of situations where you can do it safe, so just don't do it when you can't do it safe.

I really don't want to get into this one. However, I think you're viewing character choice wrong. What you said, actually doesn't really make sense. if you're not the best with a certain character... okay? Character choice is dependant upon your own personal style, as an example I could never main Link because I like to be super Aggro. Therefore I use Spacies. So if your style isn't suited to main Link, then an option to strongly consider would be a character switch..I'm still having a difficult time understanding your argument.

Okay then I agree with you, "play a character that suits the playstyle". Got no problem with that, swapping characters cause there are no immediate results is what I'm against and as long as notice progress why should I switch? I still get better at the game with all characters no matter if I want it or not, a lot of the skills in this game are universal. If I were to play the best character that suits my playstyle it would be samus, but samus is a boring ***** to play so **** that, lol.

While yes, some people don't know what the **** they're saying, just "Up-B = 50% of Link's Kill moveset", then yes, that would be accurate and unforunately, thats not whats being thrown around here. I think you're becoming overly defensive and blinded by your love for the character, and theres one thing you need to realize, the people in this thread, love this character as well, just theres a difference in how everyone views things.

Might be true, might not, that doesn't matter cause this is a true ad hominen(though a kind one ) and not an argument in any way. I know Link's flaws, I just think they might not be as big as I know others do, I think that there might be ways to work around his weaknesses and more ways to capitalize on his strengths, for example Im practicing shield dropping to make more use of his nair and uair and give him better OoS options, Link already likes to be standing on and use platforms so it suits well with how he plays otherwise. But what I can say I couldn't care less about winning tournaments, that's too far to be reasonable goal atm.

 

[Bigglestheman]

RABLE!


You two should just settle this with a duel



I don't know if I would pick up a hat for some of you guys but Ken would. Okay I would but you better have a fatal fury hat.

Anything is possible and Link could win a major there is just a very small chance of it happening.

I'm now going to somehow obtain a poster of Link getting 1st in a major and having it say "I want to believe" like the X-Files cause it's just that pro.

 

[BRLNK88]

Link can be used in the process of winning a major, but he's never winning a major.

 

[Bing]

I'll let Bing take it from here, he probably knows more than I do anyways/is more experienced.
Y'all have fun with your Sakurai Melee Link, I'll take my JCaesar PM Link.

Umm... I dont even main Link... I think I've used him in like... 2 sets.... But thanks :D

I don't think I've missed a bomb->dair in I don't know how long. Its really not that hard to land a bomb->dair or the other kill-combos and that's basically what I'm trying to make people understand, links kill options are there, and sure they are not straightforward, but certainly not hard nor situational neither, the opportunities can be forced and they are easy to force too. The thing about the dair is that it doesn't miss, its like landing grabs with links, there will be a lot of situations where you can do it safe, so just don't do it when you can't do it safe.

I never said bomb-dairs were difficult... they're really not, and even easier with your Link. With that being said, my whole point is that with your original post, you made its sound like it was very Difficult and situational. So thats all I was saying.

Okay then I agree with you, "play a character that suits the playstyle". Got no problem with that, swapping characters cause there are no immediate results is what I'm against and as long as notice progress why should I switch? I still get better at the game with all characters no matter if I want it or not, a lot of the skills in this game are universal. If I were to play the best character that suits my playstyle it would be samus, but samus is a boring ***** to play so **** that, lol.

I commend you for being so passionate in regards to Link and so faithful. With that being said, you can probably save yourself some pain in accepting his place in the game and then look for ways to breaks his limits. I agree that no, despite the fact that this game has been out for so long, I am positive that there are ways that some characters could Improve. Armada is proving that right now with Peach. I do believe that every character has a ceiling, such as Link will never be A Tier or higher. I'm positive of that. Though I also feel that if someone could figure out a way to improve Link's Movement or something like that, he could slide in to the B Tiers. Just a thought.

Also I personally find Samus' fun to use, and I'm highly aggressive. But, to who his/her own.

Might be true, might not, that doesn't matter cause this is a true ad hominen(though a kind one ) and not an argument in any way. I know Link's flaws, I just think they might not be as big as I know others do, I think that there might be ways to work around his weaknesses and more ways to capitalize on his strengths, for example Im practicing shield dropping to make more use of his nair and uair and give him better OoS options, Link already likes to be standing on and use platforms so it suits well with how he plays otherwise. But what I can say I couldn't care less about winning tournaments, that's too far to be reasonable goal atm.

Most people who look at your current goal and say, eww, thats terrible. But I'm actually on the same level. I am no where near the skill to compete with the pros who show up at the locals, i.e KK, Unknown, I.B, Weon-X. Hell even players like Idea and Raynex(when he used to come). But At the same time, I think its also a negative attitude, I may not expect to win, but I still go for Gold every time. I go all out against them, and even if they 4 stock me, I can at least look at myself and know that I tried. So while yes, you can have knowledge in that you're not the best player there. But a negative attitude is just going weigh you down.

Also, I really hope you don't use the fact that Link has flaws as reasoning for poor perforamance/placings.

 

[Jackie]

Oh dear, there are a lot of pointless arguments going on. I'll jump into strategy talk though.

I disagree about dair being useful over upB. The main thing to keep in mind is the speed at which the moves come out. Dair setups are very situational because of its speed, and hard to kill fast fallers with when they can DI well. I like to use edgecancel dairs as a bait, but that only works for so long against a specific opponent. UpB comes out fast so it's easy to use reactively and improvisationally mid-combo, like weak nair into upB (my fav).

The main disadvantage of using upB is that it will get too stale for using bomb jumps, but I think it's worth it because of all the times it has gotten me kills when nothing else would have K.O.'ed.

On another note, are there any recent vids of any of you guys aside from Jesson? I think he's the only good Link player I've seen who has been consistently appearing in tournament videos for a while now.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I never said bomb-dairs were difficult... they're really not, and even easier with your Link. With that being said, my whole point is that with your original post, you made its sound like it was very Difficult and situational. So thats all I was saying.

Dunno how, I said it was almost trivial to land in that post. The only place I stated it was a problem was in the same sentence I started with an "if" as in not a fact or a beliefe but a conditional. I could break down the sentence into logics for you if you are familiar with logical sentences. Im sure that you cant resolve what you are saying I said in that post, revisit it and try to see what it actually says.

pain in accepting his place in the game

Done that...

then look for ways to breaks his limits

...tries this, with some progress too, started to perform better since I went outside the boundaries for how this character is "supposed" to be played.

I agree that no, despite the fact that this game has been out for so long, I am positive that there are ways that some characters could Improve. Armada is proving that right now with Peach. I do believe that every character has a ceiling, such as Link will never be A Tier or higher. I'm positive of that. Though I also feel that if someone could figure out a way to improve Link's Movement or something like that, he could slide in to the B Tiers. Just a thought.

And I agree, though to me the journey is the prize. He can be in w/e tier, I just want to see how far you can push him, and it is for sure a lot further than what have been showed so far.

I Also I personally find Samus' fun to use, and I'm highly aggressive. But, to who his/her own.

Im a defensive player, I've won a few games on time. Vilness comes to mind as the best player I've won a tourney match(though not the set) against on time. When I play Samus I am not very creative, links defensive game is actually quite wide, there are a lot of defensive tools to explore and exploit.

Most people who look at your current goal and say, eww, thats terrible. But I'm actually on the same level. I am no where near the skill to compete with the pros who show up at the locals, i.e KK, Unknown, I.B, Weon-X. Hell even players like Idea and Raynex(when he used to come). But At the same time, I think its also a negative attitude, I may not expect to win, but I still go for Gold every time. I go all out against them, and even if they 4 stock me, I can at least look at myself and know that I tried. So while yes, you can have knowledge in that you're not the best player there. But a negative attitude is just going weigh you down.

Exactly my mindset, why even play if you don't at least try to win? Trying hard is enough."Winning makes you good, losing makes you better" -some random dude

Also, I really hope you don't use the fact that Link has flaws as reasoning for poor perforamance/placings.

Hell no, would never blame the character for my own stupidity and stubborness, also how does it help me become better?

 

[Bing]

Dunno how, I said it was almost trivial to land in that post. The only place I stated it was a problem was in the same sentence I started with an "if" as in not a fact or a beliefe but a conditional. I could break down the sentence into logics for you if you are familiar with logical sentences. Im sure that you cant resolve what you are saying I said in that post, revisit it and try to see what it actually says.

Well that was rude :/


I'm done here though, I wish you, Link Boards, Good luck. Debating here is pointless.

Also, Jackie, I'm sure you've also heard of Internet Explorer, he's probably the only other notable Link.(That consistently plays)

 

[Wake]

So how does Link deal with Peach's float while he is holding onto the ledge? How does he get back on effectively?

 

[Bigglestheman]

So how does Link deal with Peach's float while he is holding onto the ledge? How does he get back on effectively?

Spew words of negativity at Peach because she's emotional and will insta-KO herself from low self-esteem.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

So how does Link deal with Peach's float while he is holding onto the ledge? How does he get back on effectively?

Here the invince-frames are important, link can stall effectively on the ledge the same way CF and ganon can(don't know the frame data so maybe there are a few frames that aren't under invince), so the options are,
Stall until she drops, which actually is a worse situation for link IMO but voids the situation you suggested, but the more you can stall a floating peach the more predictable the time when she will act becomes.

ledgehop uair, ledgehop nair, ledgehop fair, ledgehop dair, if any of the will connect it's safe to go for them especially nair and uair since Links hitbox will be out way before his invince-frames ends you can't sheild or CC when in the air so its ultra safe.

Pull a bomb from the ledge and then later throw it at her, cause I kinda assume you want to use your crown in the situation you described and can't edgehog quick enough.

Jump up and light sheild the assumed aerial from peach. Then ledgejump an aerial.

Get up attack if under 100%, hits kinda high and can turn the edgeguard especially intresting since you wont be able to float and maybe not double jump if you were sloppy setting up the float.

Can't see myself use anything else intentionally. Might be some other nice tool I have forgotten.

EDIT: @bing: No actual offense meant, I just don't understand how you could interpret it the way you said you did. I see now it came out kinda cold. Sorry for that.

 

[BRLNK88]

Umm... I dont even main Link... I think I've used him in like... 2 sets.... But thanks :D

I may use him more than you do, but I do think you know your smash better than I do in general.
As a matter of fact, I've only used Link when my Marth doesn't work, particularly against another Marth (f*** Marth dittos). On occasion I'll benefit from the fact my opponent is relatively unfamiliar with the MU. Did well with Link against both Broly and Austin RC after getting ***** in a Marth ditto (Brinstar FTW).
I wouldn't dare use him though against a good spacie or Sheik main.

 

[Goast]

The main disadvantage of using upB is that it will get too stale for using bomb jumps, but I think it's worth it because of all the times it has gotten me kills when nothing else would have K.O.'ed.

This is true as it is a disadvantage... However in high levels of play the main disadvantage of using this move is that most patient players are aware of the threat for this move and well always approach link with this in mind ready to make the read as it can avoided and be heavily punished. Similar to the grab I rarely actually use it unless its a technical read, appropriate edgegaurd, or I've made a commit-able read. With that in mind it's disadvantage works in links favor because you have a superb jab (if you space ) and you can wavedash to space out projectiles and jabs. basically it's like how wes charged his samus but rarely used the b Special just to confine his opponents approach confidence.

All of links KO setups are really situation at higher levels of play so it's not about which one is better, it's about... at this moment where is your opponent what projectile is active and what position you are in. Sometimes upb edguarding won't do the trick. But with link you have so many options you just have to find the appropriate one.

 

[Jackie]

This is true as it is a disadvantage... However in high levels of play the main disadvantage of using this move is that most patient players are aware of the threat for this move and well always approach link with this in mind ready to make the read as it can avoided and be heavily punished. Similar to the grab I rarely actually use it unless its a technical read, appropriate edgegaurd, or I've made a commit-able read. With that in mind it's disadvantage works in links favor because you have a superb jab (if you space ) and you can wavedash to space out projectiles and jabs. basically it's like how wes charged his samus but rarely used the b Special just to confine his opponents approach confidence.

All of links KO setups are really situation at higher levels of play so it's not about which one is better, it's about... at this moment where is your opponent what projectile is active and what position you are in. Sometimes upb edguarding won't do the trick. But with link you have so many options you just have to find the appropriate one.

I won't disagree with you here, though I was originally trying to emphasize the speed at which upB comes out, not how long the cooldown time is (clearly atrocious haha). I would consider upB not useful at all in high level play if you're basing it on reads. I think it's best as a reactionary move so you can get it every time you want it, like the nair setup I mentioned. It's also a decent out of shield option if they are at a percent where you can get a hard knockdown. Techchase platform waveland upB is also nice if you get the chance. I think the best way to use it in a read is if you think they will do a normal get-up or roll from the edge and you get the weak hit of upB to spike them, unless they are good at DIing down for the tech (like Axe).

Random little trick I love is throwing the boomerang straight ahead and waiting for it to come back at that angle towards the opponent. Most often, they will shield or get hit (both of which are easy to react or observe a habit of doing). It's an easy way to get in a grab (or upB if they get hit).

Side note: I think returning boomerang is the most underrated and underutilized powerful tool in Link's arsenal.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

All of links KO setups are really situation at higher levels of play so it's not about which one is better, it's about... at this moment where is your opponent what projectile is active and what position you are in. Sometimes upb edguarding won't do the trick. But with link you have so many options you just have to find the appropriate one.

I kinda disagree with this, depending on what you mean with situational. Link got many enough situations to land a dair for it to be a goto attack for landing kills. Landing dairs is something I think everyone should try to learn at it's finest, cause it really makes things easier. Force them into a situation they screw up and then dair. bomb(both drops and throws)->dair, dtilt->dair, dash attack->dair, utilt->dair, uair->dair, tech chase dair, point blank rang -> dair, rising bair -> double jum dair, dthrow -> dair. See how many the situations are? Though all are not applicable to all characters you are never short on options to land a dair safely. The UpB can't be comboed into in as many ways and it got more lag than the dair. I've almost stopped using dthrow -> UpB as it seems inferior to dthrow/uthrow -> dair in almost all matchups (note however that I don't have the spike since I play PAL, so less reward for the huge risk). Fsmash is also a solid candidate for a good finisher, its the kind of move you can throw out and see if it connects, if we compare it to fox's usmash which all thinks is good its duration is only 8 frames longer(49 vs 41 frames) first frame is out way later, but it got other properties that are useful instead.

 

[Goast]

I won't disagree with you here, though I was originally trying to emphasize the speed at which upB comes out, not how long the cooldown time is (clearly atrocious haha). I would consider upB not useful at all in high level play if you're basing it on reads. I think it's best as a reactionary move so you can get it every time you want it, like the nair setup I mentioned. It's also a decent out of shield option if they are at a percent where you can get a hard knockdown. Techchase platform waveland upB is also nice if you get the chance. I think the best way to use it in a read is if you think they will do a normal get-up or roll from the edge and you get the weak hit of upB to spike them, unless they are good at DIing down for the tech (like Axe).

Random little trick I love is throwing the boomerang straight ahead and waiting for it to come back at that angle towards the opponent. Most often, they will shield or get hit (both of which are easy to react or observe a habit of doing). It's an easy way to get in a grab (or upB if they get hit).

Yeah even in high level play Upb OOS works wonders.

Side note: I think returning boomerang is the most underrated and underutilized powerful tool in Link's arsenal.

Really... I feel like returning boomerang is used alot... Then again I only really watch older classic link players and J666 and IE for the most part. But yeah it's the backbone of links gameplay and I recommend link players to develop this as much as possible. I actually use it to setup arrow gameplay... which is great because then I still have the bombs at my disposal keeping my opponents guessing. I really try to get all 3 of links projectiles active and working in a assembly line style. + links stanky leg and reverse utilt.

 

[Skler]

I know I'm super late because I've been busy, but I wanted to mention BRLink's wrongness about Link placings.



On topic: Link's KO moves are pretty soft, but it isn't too hard to get people off the stage with him and then land an easy spin or dair. His edgeguard is also effective at gimping spacies, once they have to firefox you can kill them by doing a drop off nair, tapping them with your upB on the way up, rinse and repeat combo. It takes a little bit of practice, but they really can't recover well against you (once you've screwed up their sweetspot you just get on the edge and spin while laughing).

Link covers the illusion like a champ as well. Never really had trouble killing spacies off the edge as Link since I realized what moves cover which options.

Not. Enough. Links.

 

[BRLNK88]

Where was I wrong about Link's placings?
Whats the highest Germ, you, Aniki, Smasher or HDL have ever gotten in a major?
Actually, Aniki and Smasher don't count, that was so long ago, the metagame is completely different.
And naturally Link is a master of gimping, but first you have to get your opponent OFF the stage... you can gimp Mango's Falco as easily as anyone else, but not when he's ****** you 90% of the time.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

How do you handle illusion skler? I really hate that move, can't really react to it and have to guess way more than I'd like to.

EDIT: @BRLNK88: Mango's Pichu would **** my Link, so I don't really see your point.

And just using terrain control is often enough to put them on the ledge from where you can start gimping them(not an option on DL, but a nice strategy at other stages), bomb->fsmash is a nice launcher combo, bomb->fair, weakhit nair -> dash attack -> FJ nair -> DJ nair is also a nice combo to set up gimps, uthrow -> dair, and you should know dthrow/uthrow upB. Doesnt gimp floaties, but then again, who and what does gimp floaties. I dont see a good puff, peach or samus getting gimped by anything really.

 

[BRLNK88]

OK Mango was an extreme example, point is Falco wins the onstage MU vs Link, so your opportunities to gimp him will be limited. It's even worse against Fox.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Though I don't disagree with that statement as such I want you to expand on it a little, there might be nice ways around their stuff. There might be things that we can expand upon to make the matchups a little closer, any actual in-game case is worth to consider. Especially a bair+nair+fair+jab spacing game is important in both matchups IMO, you need to play it defensive without sheilding. Projectiles are also less effective but bombs are actually really good vs flaco, especially if you get off PowerSheilds a lot, you can score some easy percentage. Both matchups are winable when you got equal skill, the character advantage aren't tilting the matchup that much (probs like 3.14:sqrt(-1) in ratio).

 

[BRLNK88]

Falco/Link is 60:40 at best
Fox/Link is 80:20. Why you ask? Because Fox can do whatever the hell he wants to Link. Link has nair and edgeguarding. Fox has literally every tool at his disposal, and it works.
With some speed buffs and a longer wavedash it could become 65:35. He could at least deal with Fox's overwhelming speed and pressure, and can't get waveshined.

 

[Goast]

honestly even tho fox has his shine and a relatively decent power-shielding gameplay *cough* kels...

Links projectile game can still hardcore overwhelm the species. You have to be halfway smart about using them... like a real bomb... derp Proper projectile following ups/positioning is the key. But for good link players I expect this to feel somewhat natural overtime like shffl lasers with falco or wave-shining with fox.

It sounds to me like maybe you've tried playing link like fox or falco. Try playing fox like link and see how that works out. (hint... it doesn't )

As in chess an imbalance only favors the person who forces it as the dominant theme. So if you simply choose to let fox run all over you and shine while you play without any target or approach methods... then yes your argument is 100% supported. Then again if links projectile game... clearly superior to fox's passive (though useful) lazer gameplay dominates the match theme then link wins simply because fox doesn't have support points. What good is his speed if he can't move.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

Hey peoples, I have very recent, new matches up. I've been practicing with a friend roughly weekly for just a couple months now (since I've literally never been able to play this game before with where I live; thank jeebus the air force finally sent a good smasher/training buddy up here!) and I'm looking to get some critique if anyone is up for it. The more the merrier. I want to improve

There's a crap load of videos (18), these 3 are my favorites, but if you feel like watching more, please do!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmKeSyXQDTs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5kE9Rt2KU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoE-Qz7wuDE

Entire playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHdwCXtX-x35OVunFIfMwiKeFg5fwa_xs&feature=view_all


Things I already know I need to work on from watching a few myself:

• Don't shield excessively when not needed (cuz I'm scurred yo)
• Don't spotdodge excessively (also cuz I'm scurred)
• Stop going for so many stupid grabs (I be missin', then gettin' mah deezies bapped)

 

[BRLNK88]

honestly even tho fox has his shine and a relatively decent power-shielding gameplay *cough* kels...

Links projectile game can still hardcore overwhelm the species. You have to be halfway smart about using them... like a real bomb... derp Proper projectile following ups/positioning is the key. But for good link players I expect this to feel somewhat natural overtime like shffl lasers with falco or wave-shining with fox.

It sounds to me like maybe you've tried playing link like fox or falco. Try playing fox like link and see how that works out. (hint... it doesn't )

As in chess an imbalance only favors the person who forces it as the dominant theme. So if you simply choose to let fox run all over you and shine while you play without any target or approach methods... then yes your argument is 100% supported. Then again if links projectile game... clearly superior to fox's passive (though useful) lazer gameplay dominates the match theme then link wins simply because fox doesn't have support points. What good is his speed if he can't move.

Using projectiles on a competent Fox is NOT as easy as you're making it sound.
I've watched Germ fight Foxes plenty of times, the only thing thats really effective is spamming nair. It's not hard to Fox to stop lazer camping once he realizes you're camping back and just pressure the crap out of you. You can't grab him safely, you have no safe options out of shield. It's absurdly difficult to actually kill him outside of an edgeguard. Not to mention you MUST play mistake free, thats probably one of the toughest things about the MU.
Is it still winnable? Yes, but its miserably difficult. Try putting your argument on the Fox board and see what they have to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS_MmuVisHo&feature=g-vrec

 

[Jackie]

Hey peoples, I have very recent, new matches up. I've been practicing with a friend roughly weekly for just a couple months now (since I've literally never been able to play this game before with where I live; thank jeebus the air force finally sent a good smasher/training buddy up here!) and I'm looking to get some critique if anyone is up for it. The more the merrier. I want to improve

There's a crap load of videos (18), these 3 are my favorites, but if you feel like watching more, please do!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmKeSyXQDTs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5kE9Rt2KU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoE-Qz7wuDE

Entire playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHdwCXtX-x35OVunFIfMwiKeFg5fwa_xs&feature=view_all


Things I already know I need to work on from watching a few myself:

• Don't shield excessively when not needed (cuz I'm scurred yo)
• Don't spotdodge excessively (also cuz I'm scurred)
• Stop going for so many stupid grabs (I be missin', then gettin' mah deezies bapped)

I only watched the first one. You caught your worst habits already, so I won't repeat those. I would incorporate crouch canceling into your game a lot more. Aside from missing the grabs, you're not making much from your grabs. Most spacies like to tech in place at a low percent, so dthrow then fsmash both hits to punish their tech/missed tech. It's a pretty hard punish, so they'll tend to tech away after. You can be more creative from there based on their position on stage.

This part is hard to explain, so ignore this paragraph if it doesn't make sense. Your movement is a little weird, like left-right and a lot of up-down but not much diagonal. I would try to incorporate more subtle aerial movement for spacing.

 

[Skler]

Where was I wrong about Link's placings?
Whats the highest Germ, you, Aniki, Smasher or HDL have ever gotten in a major?
Actually, Aniki and Smasher don't count, that was so long ago, the metagame is completely different.
And naturally Link is a master of gimping, but first you have to get your opponent OFF the stage... you can gimp Mango's Falco as easily as anyone else, but not when he's ****** you 90% of the time.

Straight Link? As far as I know the highest placing was 13th in a major tournament. It was in '07 though.

Dealing with the illusion is easy, just throw a boomerang or jab it. Then you nair a lot until they stop coming back. It's dealing with their recovery from high that's annoying (need to predict the mixup), but you can usually just react to their firefox/illusion and uair juggle them for a little if they recovered onto a platform before hitting them off again.

It's not the easiest edgeguard in the world, but getting a spanimal off the stage is a kill if you play it correctly and they can't just make it back with a double jump. Link can cover multiple options at once, I usually toss a boomerang at their illusion distance as soon as I hit them off and then do something based on how high/low they will recover from.

To be honest, the best way to fight a good Fox is to jab spam him if he's aggressive, and use careful projectile setups if he's campy. If you can force him to stay on the ground (and you have ways of doing that) you can really screw him up. Link's jab, when spaced/timed correctly, beats all of Fox's aerials. Not enough Links abuse the high hitbox of his jab to punish SH approaches. It's a bunch of free damage and can lead into the dsmash/grab depending on how they react.

A good Fox will usmash Link out of his nair every time, and Fox can even trade nairs with you and be on the ground first to punish your landing.


I'll even say Falco/Link is bad, but not as bad as it seems. It looks like Link is getting ***** the entire time, but the moment Link gets a combo he kills Falco, whereas Link survives until 150%+ because Falco can't land easy kill moves on Link, or even edgeguard him that well.


Edit: I have been looking for an excuse to use "The More You Know" for a long time now.

Edit 2: If you grab a spanimal at less than 30% you need to dthrow them and tech chase with more grabs. If you grab them near an edge you need to dthrow them, get between them and the center of the stage, and grab based on their tech or spin attack in that position (use spin if you're behind in stocks, as it will gimp them if they tech towards the edge as a mixup). Those are the rules of grabbing space animals below 30%, and they are unwavering.

Bonus tip: If you grab them and are at the extreme edge of the stage your Dthrow will have reduced knockback, try using dthrow -> turn around -> dsmash.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Using projectiles on a competent Fox is NOT as easy as you're making it sound.

Neither is it as hard as you make it sound.

You can't grab him safely, you have no safe options out of shield.

SH weak hit nair SH Fair and SH bair all pseudo comboes into grab by exploiting the unavoidable landing lag fox gets. You can also still punish whiffed aerials and smashes and CC is your sheild vs fox mostly as fox doesn't got that much against a CCing Link and you got dsmash from it. You also got Bomb OoS which is surprisingly good if you light sheild a little.

EDIT: Thanks skler for the notes btw, will certainly use them.

 

[Spife]

oh em gee sklr is posting and active?
Are you playing too?

I have a question: anyone play sd remix? Link feels so good in that.
Also don't go to the darkside, they don't have cookies (just easier combos).

 

[BRLNK88]

Neither is it as hard as you make it sound.

SH weak hit nair SH Fair and SH bair all pseudo comboes into grab by exploiting the unavoidable landing lag fox gets. You can also still punish whiffed aerials and smashes and CC is your sheild vs fox mostly as fox doesn't got that much against a CCing Link and you got dsmash from it. You also got Bomb OoS which is surprisingly good if you light sheild a little.

EDIT: Thanks skler for the notes btw, will certainly use them.

You're going to have to show me some proof bro.
Surely there are some good foxes that you play, record some matches and prove me wrong.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Yeah, why would I make that kind of effort when there is nothing to gain for me. As I said, couldn't care less what people think about how good I am. I only care about improving.

 

[Skler]

oh em gee sklr is posting and active?
Are you playing too?

I have a question: anyone play sd remix? Link feels so good in that.
Also don't go to the darkside, they don't have cookies (just easier combos).

I wish people near me actually played Melee