Looking back at the Gematsu leak...

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, I no longer subscribe to the "If it's different or unique from the others of its ilk, it MUST be special" mindset, especially after Ridley. People did everything they could to argue that there was absolutely no coincidence between Ridley and the other "shown but not confirmed" characters, that it HAD to mean Ridley was unique or special. He wasn't. He was a boss, like everyone thought he'd be. Sometimes things ARE just black and white.

He's also an Assist Character. No, he is not "just a boss". People were heavily wrong about that, and it does matter because his role is severely unique. And he's a more unique version of Flying Man as well, due to having a transformation and acting near identical to a normal playable character. The fact he's willing to help you was normal normal "boss" behavior. People were correct to think he was unique, because he actually was.

I don't even NEED to: getting the WFT and villager were already WAY outside the realm of guessable possibility. No one even considered WFT to BE a friggin' character before she was revealed, and villager had already been blacklisted by Sakurai from Brawl.

And yet we have a person who did consider WFT well before this leak. That's a fact. And it wasn't just Sakurai. She was hard to guess, but don't act like it was impossible when there is proof that somebody did. The actual message itself. It doesn't matter if it was a joke thread, which is arguably in itself as to the thread's quality, it's the fact that somebody explicitly guessed her. As for Villager, yes he was unlikely, but that completely assumes people think a character who Sakurai put down whas zero changes next time around. For the average user, that's expected. Anyone doing research would know many characters he considers do indeed become playable later, no matter why they were removed. Mewtwo(who managed to do this twice of all things), King Dedede, Wolf, and Bowser are just a few. Thinking Villager may be playable later on is actually not unreasonable at all.

Again, Gematsu is 8 of 10 right, which as I said is still more accurate than the Pokemon leak yet no one tries to angrily dismiss that guy. 8 of 10 is a passing grade on any test that I know of. I give Sal credit for giving us a sizable chunk of the roster long before it was revealed.

That's great, which proves to me was he was overall legit, not that he could not have lied at any other time. Sal is not the leaker, however. He's the messenger. However, I'd like to note to you this "passing grade" stuff does not matter whatsoever. Guessing a ton of stuff right isn't the factor, it's how he got every single one right to be in the game in general and most of them at the right time, including a character that is completely new to the world. That sealed what made him legit. The chances of guessing those all is low, yet still not completely impossible. But you do not get a new character right before they were going to revealed.

Not to mention the fact that the ENTIRE reason Shulk was so popular in fake leaks was because of Gematsu...

He was not that hard to guess, as many thought he could be in. Well before it, so that's not correct either.

As Vanrose pointed out, the leaker could've been on one part of the dev team that didn't know what the others were doing and could've seen the HD Chrom model and assumed.

Which does not mean he was planned to be playable, but nothing more than an Assist Character, and being the main character of a game, got a High Quality model. This is no less possible. The fact he said he considered him(and maybe that's a translation error) means giving him a notable model was a stage in planning. Not that he will be playable, but he intended him to be in the game in a notable role no matter what, which he still is.

And why don't you explain the logic behind EVERY OTHER NINTENDO-MADE SMASH RUN ENEMY COMING FROM A PLAYABLE FRANCHISE, except for the ones from RH. Why is Rhythm Heaven so special that it gets representation in smash run while not having a playable character? Why not any of the DOZENS of more popular Nintendo franchises that could've also been represented via smash run?

Because unlike you, Sakurai doesn't use simple logic. He's done completely unique things nobody thought of. He made Ridley a Hazard/Assist character. Not a lame boss again. But an actual combination of Assist Trophy and Stage Hazard. Nobody really predicted that, just thought Ridley was highly special(and they were right).

You don't know if it had anything to do with a special rule. Also, as noted, Find Mii also has it without a normal playable Mii. The Miis are special and actually SSB characters, not from the Find Mii series, making three franchises with enemies without playables. Notably, we do not actually if the planned normal Mii was going to be represented via Find Mii, so that logic doesn't actually exist for them either. This can only actually apply to Ice Climbers, and the rest are still completely unprovable theories. Miis are iffy, but maybe possible. And so are Rhythm Heaven. Stop pretending a rule for how Enemies work exists. You do not know, and are still apply logic of something that may be a pure coincidence, that somebody made an assumption of, just like you are doing now.

Once again, it's not like Sal predicted Dixie Kong, Lip, Professor Layton etc. and we're insisting that THOSE characters (with no evidence to support them whatsoever) were just honest mistakes and Sal should be forgiven for them. We're talking about stuff that HAS genuine evidence that points to it was either playable or could legitimately be mistaken for playable.

It's not guenuine. It's a severe assumption that you know how Sakurai created and directed Smash run. When multiple stages show up with no character, it's pretty clear a series does not need a character to be playable to reprsent it. How can it not legitimately apply to Smash Run? Do we have a statement that it doesn't apply? Until he actually says it's a rule he decied, it is not very good evidence. It's a fair assumption, but evidence is highly pushing it, especially caling it "Strong". The only strong evidence for Chrom is the interview at best. Do you know why? Despite the translations being weird, he actually told us Chrom was in the running in some way. That's it. A model does not prove anything. There's other possible reasons besides "being playable" that he could have a high quality model. One I mentioned up above. Why is not that actually possible? You talk about this black and white crap, but refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, there is more than meets the eye here?

Just remember, 3 franchiess at least have enemies. Potentially more.
-Ice Climber: We knew for a fact he worked on them.
-Rhythm Heaven: Does not have a playable character, and no solid evidence to show so.
-Find Mii: As there's zero implication that Miis were going to be under this franchise before being transformed into the Mii Fighters, a unique and unused concept before, this is not solid evidence whatsoever.
Lastly, Sakurai has never once said or even implied Smash Run would only use enemies from playable franchises. If you can prove he said this, go ahead.

I'll leave with this; Stop assuming so much. Not everything is some conspiracy and solid evidence means it's not really questionable at all. The interview was not even questionable. We definitely knew by them something was up with Chrom, just not the exact details. And it's slightly iffy, but only due to translations issues that could have come up. As his messanges even on Miiverse are changed around to mean something different, translation problems are common enough to take into consideration. We know for a fact that Sakurai thought of using Chrom. And that's as far we can legitimately get due to the rasing of most of the data. If you can find actual gameplay data of the Chorus Men, then we can show they were planned to be playable but cut for whatever reason. But this not exist. No interview exists. Just an assumption Smash Run uses a fan-made rule. That is the not very solid at all, and you need to seriously stop pretending it's unquestionable. Plus, the SSE had original characters unrepresented by a playable franchises. The SSB series had no playable rep till Smash 4. And Smash Run is pretty clear a remake of much of the SSE's style, the only exception being the reason to go through it(and direct Multiplayer VS Co-op/Single Player). Note how I'm taking tons of details into account. They all have relevance here.

Another issue is that just because IC's did it, every other franchise that has a Smash Run enemy(2 unrepped) somehow must have a planned playable character. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It's still an assumption, that no real detail from Sakurai's interviews say anything about. Or a Miiverse post. Now, if they did and I missed it, please point it out. Till then, you haven't provided proof that this is actually a thing, and thus, is a highly questionable premise to go off of. Because frankly, you have done nothing to support the theory with any actual evidence it's a thing, just throwing out questions as if they actually will support it. By saying it must be a thing, you are implying Sakurai made this rule. If he did, you can certainly cite this and prove your case. Do so, and sure, you have a real theory that is somewhat supportable. But as of now, you're leading people on with a very poor premise that doesn't hold real water. To put it even more bluntly; "My position is unbreakable because I say it is." That's seriously how the theory comes off as, which does not actually provide useful input in this discussion. It's a perfectly viable theory, but calling it evidence is pushing it. Especially since you have shown no intention of proving that theory actually right. Asking a question like that doesn't prove anything right, it's just a question you know nobody can answer, and thus, you will always win. If you continue to do this, I'm reporting. Either give legitimate proof, or just accept your theory is okay, but not evidence.

People do keep saying that supposedly people guessed Mii Fighters. But nobody has provided true evidence of that, namely citing where it came up well before the leak. If not before the message. If they can do that, even better. It doesn't prove other than the character name was guessable, but not at the exact same time the character will be revealed, however, which kind of does matter. If I missed the post where somebody properly cited, apologies for that.

Also, when it comes to Smash Run, we're looking at simple pattern recognition, here.

Which is not in any way actual evidence, just theories at best, one that are unsupportable. You need solid evidence to prove that theory right, which you have not given anything thus of. Right now, it's basically a conspiracy-type theory at best. What we want is you to cite where this "Smash Run is only repped by planning franchises" as some kind of a fact. It's not impossible, and nobody is saying it is. We're saying, to put it bluntly, there's no way to actually be sure it's truly the case. We're talking about planned characters. We need more than a major set of assumptions here. Especially when another franchise is completely unrepresented(Find Mii), and there is no extremely good reason to believe Miis were indefinitely going to be under that. Could they have been? Sure. But we were only told Miis were intended to be playable, but revamped to Mii Fighters. We were not told what franchise they'd be under, which means we cannot really claim this that easily.

In addition, since you loved to cite "pattern recognition", there was no playable SSB specific character in Brawl, where the SSE used the same ideal setup for its Enemy choice, as did the original Adventure Mode. The difference is Adventure Mode didn't have Weak Enemies from an unrepped franchise, but the SSE did. That actually means, going by a pattern alone, Sakurai has clearly no issue putting in Enemies from a franchise being unplayable too. That's just as logical as what you're saying. As they did decide to make an SSB character playable(and Giga Bowser only barely counts, as he did not gain his Smash Symbol in Brawl, being treated as a Mario character at that time notably), but even then, that's still 3 franchises without playable characters. 2 of which only arguably had planned ones, and one that we know did. Logic dictates by that alone, we should assume that 2/3 wins as well. I'm playing the exact same numbers game as you, keep in mind, so there's a lot of issues I find with your logic that doesn't quite well fit. In the end, no, I do not believe the Smash Run thing means anything in reality and may even be completely worthless as knowledge. They may have had even more enemies planned with no playable characters entirely. I am not counting some of the Namco ones since they do show up in Pac-Man games, and thus, could legitimately fall under that franchise. And if you don't, that's a fourth one without a playable rep, Dig Dug(and more I could've missed). The evidence is really not as strong as you think it is, and I'd say thinking outside the box and not applying assumptions as perfect logic is a bit important here. Sakurai already recognized the series enough to give them trophies. Why is it so hard to believe he found the enemy interesting for a rare one no less and threw it in? Just like he threw in the Hanenbow stage, that was not meant to have a representative of the playable variety. Even Smashville is different, being that he meant to have Villager playable at one point, but it never got past the consideration stage(which is not the same as planned, meaning they were programmed somewhat into the game beyond a simple model only, as frankly too many characters get that and simply become a Trophy if it doesn't work out. It doesn't mean really much in the long haul).

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Verde Coeden Scalesworth don't forget both Xevious and Dig Dug franchises... both had enemies in Smash Run...

It is kinda funny how Ridley acts like an Assist Trophy in Pyrosphere when you remember that one of the pre-Brawl rumors claimed that Ridley was an Assist Trophy.

 

[Evello]

How was Ridley "special"?

The only thing that ever made him special that I saw was the amount of straw grasping to suggest that he might be playable.

People brought up all sorts of things like how Sakurai immediately clarified the roles of virtually every non-playable character except Ridley. He never outright said Ridley was a boss, while he blatantly and repeatedly identified every other AT or stage boss (arguably).

Also, when it comes to Smash Run, we're looking at simple pattern recognition, here.

The ice climbers were planned but cut when they discovered the 3DS couldn't handle them, but the polar bear remains in Smash Run.

It stands to reason that the very same thing was likely true for the Chorus Kids who also must've been at least two characters because their name is plural.

Likely is a bit of a stretch. You've seen a pattern, but patterns can be very deceptive. Ever hear of the black swan problem? And several somewhat-exceptions have already been presented: namely, the Find Mii enemies and Namco enemies.

I wish Sakurai would just swallow his damn pride, admit that the 3DS isn't powerful enough to handle the ICs/CCs and release them both on the Wii U as DLC anyway...

He's not hiding it; he blatantly admitted the 3DS couldn't handle the IC but the Wii U could. He just wants to keep the rosters the same, since the games are so interconnected.

Yeah, anyone can predict 100 newcomers and PROBABLY get all of the newcomers in that group, but they'll also get close to 85 characters wrong.

Sal "guessed" 10 and got 8 of them right, and the last two have extenuating circumstances which could explain their absence.

But even if you don't want to believe that, 8 of 10 is still more than credible.

The Gematsu leaker guessed 8 characters right, guessed 2 wrong, and missed 7 characters for debatable reasons (If I'm counting correctly). Just from a numbers perspective, that's nowhere near being beyond the realm of guessing. It's not conclusive evidence that he was a fraud, but neither is it particularly good proof that he's legitimate.

Further, while a single person in a vacuum guessing both Villager and Wii Fit Trainer is ridiculously improbable, someone, somewhere on the internet was bound to get it right. Are you familiar with the making of prediction brackets for sports tournaments? With enough participants, someone always approximates the final tournament results. That is not evidence that the best bracket-maker had foreknowledge of who would win. And just because Villager was thought to be deconfirmed does not exclude him from the prediction process. All sorts of people include impossible (i.e. not from video games) or improbable (characters with evidence against them) characters in their line-ups. The fact that one out of all the supposed leaks actually guessed some long-shot characters is not that surprising. Again, this does not mean the leaker is fake, but you can see why so many people don't find his guesses persuasive.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@ Verde Coeden Scalesworth don't forget both Xevious and Dig Dug franchises... both had enemies in Smash Run...

I know that the Dig Dug enemy was heavily used in Pac-Man games, so he isn't just a "Namco enemy", at least. As for Xevious, did they actually show characters from that franchise in tons of Pac-Man games. If not, that's yet another enemy from an unrepped franchise. Claiming "because Namco" still doesn't matter in that case, because it's an unrepped franchise regardless. Thank you.

It is kinda funny how Ridley acts like an Assist Trophy in Pyrosphere when you remember that one of the pre-Brawl rumors claimed that Ridley was an Assist Trophy.

It wasn't a rumor, we had data to show it was planned. In other words, him being a Hazard(a new role) and an Assist character(previously planned) is actually pretty cool. Sure, I wanted him playable, but I don't think this is bad either. They gave him a lot more love than the previous games, and he feels more like himself outside of the fact he teams up with players. Brawl was not bad on his personality, but copying Kirby Boss attacks annoyed me somewhat. They were still awesome, regardless, but eh.

I'm glad he was not a Boss again(and remember, Stage Bosses are just glorified Stage Hazards with more A.I. Otherwise, Kraid is no less a Stage Boss in Melee on Brinstar Depths. The fact they used a previous Boss from another franchise is not that relevant. That's just the character choice. It has nothing to do with how they work in the game. The A.I. is the key point(as is direct interaction), otherwise, the concept was first shown in Melee. If it's just a boss and has interaction alone, then you say Ultimate Chimera did it first. Although I do not know if he was a Boss in Mother 3. If not, then this is only kind of new). Note that the A.I. is immensely improved for these hazards, to the point they required new files, which less notable hazards are part of the stage data(which would include Kraid by game design). I know it's off-topic, but it was brought up by the OP alone, the idea that Ridley isn't special, despite people heavily getting it wrong what his true role was(really, why do people forget he's an assist character too? That's why his information was held back. If it weren't for that, he'd just be noted as a normal hazard you can beat up like the Yellow Devil. The assist part was very clearly special, never mind his transformation. He was far more special than people like to give credit for. Some thought he could be playable, but when you move and act similar to a player character, it's not unreasonable to think that. There was no hard evidence to show he was just a hazard(and even then, zero evidence to show he was an assist character. He was a highly surprising addition, and completely unique from Brawl). Really, bosses were not designed in the Smash series to normally assist player characters. Yet this guy does it. And can get KO'd while giving you KO points. Flying Man doesn't give you even that. Just saying.

 

[S_B]

Likely is a bit of a stretch. You've seen a pattern, but patterns can be very deceptive. Ever hear of the black swan problem? And several somewhat-exceptions have already been presented: namely, the Find Mii enemies and Namco enemies.

How do Miis not represent "Find Mii"?

So why Rhythm Heaven and not any of the DOZENS of other choices from franchises that are way more popular than RH? Why no enemies from Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Chibi Robo, Sin and Punishment, etc.?

Every Nintendo enemy in Smash Run is from a playable franchise (or franchises that were going to be playable but were then cancelled).

As for the Namco enemies, we've already established that Namco has put as much of their stuff into this game as possible.

He's not hiding it; he blatantly admitted the 3DS couldn't handle the IC but the Wii U could. He just wants to keep the rosters the same, since the games are so interconnected.

He was also on record saying that the 3DS version wouldn't hold the Wii U version back, which it clearly did...

Further, while a single person in a vacuum guessing both Villager and Wii Fit Trainer is ridiculously improbable, someone, somewhere on the internet was bound to get it right.

And he then went on to get 6 more right, none of which were "guaranteed" or "safe guesses" because, despite what many people like to say, hindsight is still 20/20.

There were plenty of people back then who would've considered Mewtwo, Ridley, KRool, Dixie, Takamaru and a number of others to all be "safe guesses". In fact, Mewtwo was the safest guess of all, as he topped both the US AND Japanese polls, yet he's only coming later as DLC.

Combine this with the fact that Sal had something to lose if he was wrong and I frankly cannot understand how anyone could dismiss the leak outright.

We have:
-8 of 10 right
-million to one shot of guessing WFT AND villager
-evidence that the two he got wrong were possibly planned to be playable at one point
-if he was guessing, he didn't go for the SAFEST guess of all, Mewtwo (seriously, NO character was safer to guess than Mewtwo, yet Sal did NOT "predict" M2...)

I don't see how people can blow it off as guessing. If Sal was this good at guessing things, he should've already won the lottery a few times by now...

Let me put this another way...

Say Nintendo WAS able to sue Sal for exposing information about their game to the public. Based upon what Sal revealed, I would say Nintendo DEFINITELY has a case against him.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How do Miis not represent "Find Mii"?

Because they represent Super Smash Bros. See that symbol? Look hard at it. What symbol does it show? Yeah. Mii Fighters are SSB characters. Miis are little NPC's shown off in a stage. You cannot play as a regular Mii but one of 3 classes.

So why Rhythm Heaven and not any of the DOZENS of other choices from franchises that are way more popular than RH? Why no enemies from Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Chibi Robo, Sin and Punishment, etc.?

Because Sakurai said so. That's the gist of it. Unless you can actually prove otherwise. Hey, he directs it, not you. Golden Sun doesn't even have an Assist Trophy anymore, notably.

Every Nintendo enemy in Smash Run is from a playable franchise (or franchises that were going to be playable but were then cancelled).

False. That's not applicable to Find Mii or Xevious. No excuses. They do not have a playable franchises and no playable character directly falls under that symbol. Even if it might have been applicable to Find Mii, which is unprovable, it does not apply to Xevious, and despite your bull excuse, proves your theory utterly wrong.

As for the Namco enemies, we've already established that Namco has put as much of their stuff into this game as possible.

Yeah, no. That's a bullcrap idea. It does not excuse the fact that it completely goes against your theory. Pooka, yes, because it's a Pac-Man enemy these days. Xevious guys, nope, because Xevious has no playable rep. It's all or nothing with a theory like that.

Either they all have a playable rep planned, or nobody for sure does. And you can bet there was not going to be a Xevious playable character. Since Sakurai did state he won't give Bandai-Namco special attention choosing playable characters. You claim Namco is a special case). Why is it impossible for Rhytham Heaven to be. Unlikely isn't an excuse. If one can be, why can't another? You are pulling up some severe excuses for this, here. In reality, the Rhythm Heaven enemies reason for being in are completely unknown, and theories are nice, but don't have any solid facts behind them. Not enough to prove a character was absolutely planned. It's not solid at all. The fact of the matter is, what actually proves it was definitely Chorus Men and no one else? Yes, it looks likely Chorus Men could be it due to a leaker,

He was also on record saying that the 3DS version wouldn't hold the Wii U version back, which it clearly did...

He said the exact opposite. You need to seriously improve your research.

And he then went on to get 6 more right, none of which were "guaranteed" or "safe guesses" because, despite what many people like to say, hindsight is still 20/20.

Nice accusations here. Did you seriously think Pac-Man, Palutena, MegaMan, Little Mac, and freaking Miis(Mii Fighters are a fair claim, Miis are not) were not severely easy or guaranteed guesses? Really, dude? Rosalina is slightly more iffy, as is Shulk. But barely. Both were very well known, but not as guessed. The rest? You could even throw Little Mac into the second group, but Pac-Man, Palutena and MegaMan were beyond safe guesses that anybody could get, especially freaking Pac-Man. You are severely underestimating these characters' popularity.

There were plenty of people back then who would've considered Mewtwo, Ridley, KRool, Dixie, Takamaru and a number of others to all be "safe guesses". In fact, Mewtwo was the safest guess of all, as he topped both the US AND Japanese polls, yet he's only coming later as DLC.

Mewtwo was not a safe guess since Brawl. People hoped he'd be in, but that was it. None of those were truly safe, and it didn't surprise me many weren't in at all.

Combine this with the fact that Sal had something to lose if he was wrong and I frankly cannot understand how anyone could dismiss the leak outright.

Sal never had anything to lose. His source did. Sal is not the leaker. You really need to brush up on a ton of your details here. You're severely lacking in knowledge of this leak and arguing a lot of non-factual points. Your biggest theory of Smash Run enemies doesn't hold water here. Especially when you make an "all of them did" claim when not every franchise shown did. You cannot actually claim any special exceptions exist for one series but cannot ever for another. Things don't work like that. If one doesn't work, then another is questionable by default.

We have:
-8 of 10 right

Correct.

-million to one shot of guessing WFT AND villager

Arguable, but I can somewhat agree.

-evidence that the two he got wrong were possibly planned to be playable at one point

There's no evidence it was even the Chorus Men, just a Rhythm Heaven character at best, and that is very fishy evidence. An unprovable claim even. One that your rules for how it works doesn't make sense too. Read above to see why your claim is unprovable. Chrom we did get evidence of, from Sakurai himself, the only real evidence to make that claim. And it was very specific that he thought about Chrom for sure.

-if he was guessing, he didn't go for the SAFEST guess of all, Mewtwo (seriously, NO character was safer to guess than Mewtwo, yet Sal did NOT "predict" M2...)

That'd be great, but Sal didn't predict diddly squat, his leaker did. I didn't think he was safe either, and I figured that out the second he wasn't in Brawl. I was surprised at first, but after Jigglypuff was made more important in the long run, I realized in the end, she was far safer of a guess. Lucario was too for a returner. Likewise, Mewtwo is a veteran, something Sal's leaker had no reason to list even if he was planned beforehand. He was listing new characters only.

I don't see how people can blow it off as guessing. If Sal was this good at guessing things, he should've already won the lottery a few times by now...

If his leaker was good at guessing, he sure got one thing nobody was going to get right, new characters(Mii Fighters) exactly before they were revealed. That timing is way too coincidental. That sealed it from then there that he had insider information for sure. Not just the name, but the perfect timing.

Let me put this another way...

Say Nintendo WAS able to sue Sal for exposing information about their game to the public. Based upon what Sal revealed, I would say Nintendo DEFINITELY has a case against him.

They cannot sue someone who didn't exactly leak it, since Sal only translated the messages. Sal is the middle man, not the actual leaker. Seriously, stop speaking as if Sal is the leaker. It's very clear he is not, just his confidential partner is(which he had to keep secret to protect his job).

What you did not take into account is Sal's leaker has a job to protect as well, meaning making up stuff to throw off his employers is essential. Chrom I don't believe he made up. Chorus Men are another story. They are iffy on all fronts, as nothing makes it obvious it was them, including the idea that perhaps the Rhythm Heaven character chosen had the same issue as Chrom, too boring to be chosen. Another of many possibilities. I'd love to think they were the planned ones, but there's no way to truly tell, if a Rhythm Heaven enemy was planned, but the only evidence to show that is, you know, a very bad claim that doesn't make ultimate sense. With too many enemies not repped by playable franchises, including a special case, which still defeats your logic of "every enemy must be from a playable or was supposed to be a playable franchise", since in order to be a special case, it means that an exception ultimately exists. If one exception can exist, another can. And another. There's either no exceptions, or there are exceptions. You cannot seriously claim one is an exception, but outright refuse to admit there's no way another can be an exception. And nobody is saying it must be one, but it still is a possible case, that cannot be ignored.

Try another method, because as of now, it's not actually working here. It's not sound logic. It's a pattern you think exists, and a fan-made rule that you have failed to prove. In addition, there is solid evidence that exceptions are okay. You want to claim that Rhythm Heaven was likely not an exception? I'll buy that. But do not claim it cannot be, because that would require you to have insider knowledge, which it's very blatant you do not since you have consistently gotten details severely wrong, which hurts your argument quite a bit. For the record, I do not care how or why you got it wrong. Either way, you did, and it may be best to admit you made some mistakes and stop trying to make this claim already. It has holes. Just admit it's not perfect and move on. It's again, a fair theory. It is not ironclad, however. And in the end, the fact that it's not ironclad removes the "solid" part of this evidence. We call this anecdotal evidence, which is "coincidental, but isn't strong enough to make a very good case".

 

[Weldar]

False. That's not applicable to Find Mii or Xevious. No excuses. They do not have a playable franchises and no playable character directly falls under that symbol. Even if it might have been applicable to Find Mii, which is unprovable, it does not apply to Xevious, and despite your bull excuse, proves your theory utterly wrong.

I also disagree with the idea that every Smash Run enemy comes from a series that was planned to be playable. But it is a fact they almost all have some obvious connection with franchises representent elsewhere in the game. Usually it is being from a frnachise with a playable character but even the exceptions to that have some links
You could make the case the StreetPass Quest (or Find Mii) being represented by the Mii Fighters but even igonring those we have a Streetpass Quest stage. I wouldn't have really though much of something like say, the Baloon Fight fish being a Smash Run enemy for the same reasons, its a series that's already represented in Smash in some relatively significant way. Ice Climber has no actual representation outside of a trophy and a couple of songs in the WiU version but we know they were cut later into development and they do have some connection to Smash as a franchise given they have been playable in the past. The Xevious panels are definitely one of the weirder ones but the thing is despite Namco not getting any special treatment when it comes to characters they unquestionably as a 3rd party have more presence in the game than Sega and Capcom. Pac Man is representing classic namco as a whole in a way Sonic and Mega Man aren''t for their developers with things like the myraid of references in his up taunt, the music on Pac Land being primarily medleys of old school Namco games rather than Pac Man music and even items like the Boss Galaga and Special Flag getting in. Xevious does fit under that umbrella of old school Namco which is actually something that was being represented in Smash in other ways even if Xevious itself does not.
The Rythmn Heaven enemy by far sticks out the most, it has some representation in the form of some trophies but that's it. No music, no stages, no assist trophy. It is made by the same developer who makes Warioware but Wario isn't really representing many outisde influences that way. With every other enemy you can see the line of logic on why they might have though to use them in the game, with the sneaky spirit there's really nothing beyond someone in the development team really liking Rythmn Heaven and randomly putting it in. Its by no means confirmed but in conjunction with something like Gematsu the idea that some extra Rythmn Heaven represntation was planned at some point is enough to raise an eyebrow at at least

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I also disagree with the idea that every Smash Run enemy comes from a series that was planned to be playable. But it is a fact they almost all have some obvious connection with franchises representent elsewhere in the game. Usually it is being from a frnachise with a playable character but even the exceptions to that have some links
You could make the case the StreetPass Quest (or Find Mii) being represented by the Mii Fighters but even igonring those we have a Streetpass Quest stage. I wouldn't have really though much of something like say, the Baloon Fight fish being a Smash Run enemy for the same reasons, its a series that's already represented in Smash in some relatively significant way. Ice Climber has no actual representation outside of a trophy and a couple of songs in the WiU version but we know they were cut later into development and they do have some connection to Smash as a franchise given they have been playable in the past. The Xevious panels are definitely one of the weirder ones but the thing is despite Namco not getting any special treatment when it comes to characters they unquestionably as a 3rd party have more presence in the game than Sega and Capcom. Pac Man is representing classic namco as a whole in a way Sonic and Mega Man aren''t for their developers with things like the myraid of references in his up taunt, the music on Pac Land being primarily medleys of old school Namco games rather than Pac Man music and even items like the Boss Galaga and Special Flag getting in. Xevious does fit under that umbrella of old school Namco which is actually something that was being represented in Smash in other ways even if Xevious itself does not.
The Rythmn Heaven enemy by far sticks out the most, it has some representation in the form of some trophies but that's it. No music, no stages, no assist trophy. It is made by the same developer who makes Warioware but Wario isn't really representing many outisde influences that way. With every other enemy you can see the line of logic on why they might have though to use them in the game, with the sneaky spirit there's really nothing beyond someone in the development team really liking Rythmn Heaven and randomly putting it in. Its by no means confirmed but in conjunction with something like Gematsu the idea that some extra Rythmn Heaven represntation was planned at some point is enough to raise an eyebrow at at least

I never bought that with Pac-Man. He represents his own series specifically. Yes, he references a few Namco stuff, but does not truly represented classic Namco. A few moves isn't the same as a dedicated moveset to showing off as much of Namco specifically instead of his own abilities, which as noted, almost everything he does is based around himself. He's a classic take on his character, with a few references.

Xevious is an unrepresented franchise when it comes to anything but a Smash Run enemy(and Trophies in gneeral). It's a Universe that has little. Rhythm Heaven is the same way. Being suspicious, which I agree with, isn't ironclad enough to matter. When it comes to Smash Run, the fact that it has Universes shown without playable reps is simply unknown to as why. Namco are clearly exceptions to this theory(which again, means the theory is not ironclad in any way. If an exception exists, it's a hole overall). The stages constantly have music from other games too. They are not the same as characters. Mr. Game & Watch's stages even has Dr. Mario music. Stage music doesn't mean much.

I don't think the Rhythm Heaven enemy sticks out that much. One thing to note is that it's a special enemy that is hard to hit, disappears fast, and basically pokes you for damage. Maybe that's all there is to it. It's a unique idea and he liked it. That's all it took for him to pick Greninja, just the fact he looked interesting. There doesn't need to be a beyond special reason. I do not deny the concept that a Rhythm Heaven playable character was potentially planned, but I don't believe this helps much to prove anything. If we could find any useful data besides a leak and a Smash Run enemy, which again, isn't that ironclad as pointless out before(however, what I've seen is that all the Smash Run enemies are from Universes that at least have a symbol in some way, or may have). I think it's just as possible we had a stage idea for Rhythm Heaven planned. But there's no telling whether it was a character or a stage, both which would require a respective symbol. As for Chorus Men, my issue here is we have nothing besides a coincidence with Ice Climbers(3DS issues) that suggests they're the likely choice and that a mostly correct leaker gave Sal that information to give to us. However, that alone isn't sufficient. We cannot actually say that the leaker himself(or herself, mayhaps) didn't guess a thing or two. Some things, no, I'm sure weren't guessed, but it doesn't take a genius to think Palutena, Pac-Man, or MegaMan are coming in. These are really easy to figure out. Villager and WFT, not to a high degree, even if one person guessed correctly beforehand(and a poll on this forum sometime back more or less suggests some did think she'd get in, but eh). Miis were easy as hell. Mii Fighters are arguably easy to guess as a name, but when they're about to be revealed? Too coincidental. That part just doesn't add up. That's a very high-strung coincidence, to the point that it makes you think he either knew something, or somehow hacked the website(a rumor that came up before that e3 of the reveal of Mii Fighter and Palutena). Anyway, while Sal himself has been well known as credible, his source is a different story. Enough was wrong that we can't actually take Chorus Men as truly definite. Possible, sure, of course! Planned? Not enough legitimately strong evidence, especially that proves it was those exact characters.

 

[Weldar]

Pac Man as a fighter is certainly just representing himself but classic Namco is a whole is being repressented in Smash and they're doing most of it via Pac Man. They made an effort to show of a lot of games in his up taunt. A lot of stages have a random song or two not from their franchise with the ones that are mostly non franchise songs being stages like Duck Hunt or Pictochat that have limited options in their source. Pac Man does not have limited music options but Pac Land has only 3 Pac Man songs, 5 medleys of specific Namco games and 2 medley or various Namco arcade games, they clearly made an effort to focus on classic Namco music over Pac Man music (much like say Mario Bros in Brawl focusing on 8 bit Nintendo music instead of general Mario music).

All that said I actually agree with you overall. I do think the Sneaky Spirit stands out slightly more than the Xevious thing but I don't think it alone confirms anything. I think it was pretty likely they at least thought of Rythmn Heaven outside of the context of the smash run enemy and a few trophies, but that doesn't mean they were ever at the point of seriously working on anything.

On the topic of Gematsu itself, I do beleive there was some credence to it but that's actually because of how it guessed Greninja, or rather it didn't. It guessed a Pokemon from Pokemon x/y which is vague and wishy-washy and made me only doubt it at first. But when Sakurai revealed that in early rosters they set aside a for a new pokemon and chose Greninja later on after that actually made me beleive it more. Putting something so vague in a fake list only makes you look less credible, but if it a real internal roster said something like that it would make sense. Which would mean if the info was real it was very old since Greninja was chosen based off just concept art long before X and Y came out, probably would have had to have been at least 2 years ago. I don't really buy the idea someone saw a model of Chrom and assumed, I think its likely all this leaker ever saw was a list of names on paper of an early rough draft of the roster. We know from interveiws Sakurai breifly considered Chrom but from the way he talks it also sounds like he dropped that idea fairly quickly. But in an early draft Chrom could have been the first character to come to mind for a new Fire Emblem rep, with him being switched for Robin when it came time to actually think speficis of how characters could work. Its not certain but I think that's all the Gematsu leak probably was. Which would mean the Chorus Kids were put down as an idea but they may very well have been dropped long before any work began

 

[Deleted member]

Guys, guys, guys, I think you have it all wrong!

The guy might be a psychic, maybe he has a type of clairvoyance to be exact, which might be why there is no public record of legal action taken. I mean have you people even considered the supernatural at all? It's entirely irrational to rule it out. ESP has not been disproved to exist exactly; so, for all we know this guy could have been a psychic.

No, no, no.

It's clearly.....

 

[S_B]

They cannot sue someone who didn't exactly leak it, since Sal only translated the messages. Sal is the middle man, not the actual leaker. Seriously, stop speaking as if Sal is the leaker. It's very clear he is not, just his confidential partner is(which he had to keep secret to protect his job).

Hence why I explicitly said that IF THEY COULD SUE HIM as in purely a hypothetical situation.

Of course Sal isn't the leaker. The only point I'm trying to make is that, if Nintendo had a means of silencing Sal, they would've done so.

Let me put it YET ANOTHER WAY: If Nintendo was the mafia and Sal was "speculating" on their "operations", they'd have put him in cement shoes and dropped him in the ocean by now.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think the 3Ds is to blame for the leak's falsehood.

Chrom wa sprobably in a tag team with Robin from day 1, and the Chorus Men were probably the trio counterpart ot the Ice CLimbers. but 3DS **** that.

 

[Phaazoid]

Guys, guys, guys, I think you have it all wrong!

The guy might be a psychic, maybe he has a type of clairvoyance to be exact, which might be why there is no public record of legal action taken. I mean have you people even considered the supernatural at all? It's entirely irrational to rule it out. ESP has not been disproved to exist exactly; so, for all we know this guy could have been a psychic.

The truth revealed

Gematsu was...

Spoiler

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hence why I explicitly said that IF THEY COULD SUE HIM as in purely a hypothetical situation.

Of course Sal isn't the leaker. The only point I'm trying to make is that, if Nintendo had a means of silencing Sal, they would've done so.

Let me put it YET ANOTHER WAY: If Nintendo was the mafia and Sal was "speculating" on their "operations", they'd have put him in cement shoes and dropped him in the ocean by now.

Right.

Anyway, I don't like this subject. My actual most important point is how you're cherrypicking that "exception" for your claim. It doesn't make sense in the end. In reality, if your idea is that all specific franchises get a playable character, than any exception messes up that idea. Xevious is an exception to the rule. Since that is the case, it's definitely possible Rhythm Heaven is too. And Find Mii or Smash Bros. would be too depending what franchise Mii Fighter would represent. In other words, Sakurai clearly is okay with exceptions, thus, you're making it too black and white here. I agree it's suspicious and possible, but it's not very strong due to no telling what exact Rhythm Heaven character was indefinitely planned. We have a person with a fairly good track record, and something that suggests the franchise will get a rep, and a pure conceptual idea that Chorus Men would have the same issues as IC's, except we don't even know if they were ever going to be designed that way(while it's true Sakurai said multi-characters were an issue), if designed at all. It's very anecdotal. It's a logical assumption, don't get me wrong, but we don't have enough specific data pointing to them, just good reason to believe it was them. That's why it's not solid evidence, but purely anecdotal.

Or in other words, you might notice that people are not saying the theory is bad, just not enough to draw an extremely notable conclusion. It has holes, which I've pointed out before. I would entirely agree with you if Xevious wasn't there at all. Since the SSE existed and the SSB franchise technically had characters, even if unplayable, they're an acceptable exception. But then we have another exception. It stands to reason that more than two exceptions can exist as well. 4 unrepped Franchises is a bit much. Claiming all 4 would definitely have had playable characters doesn't add up. We know Xevious would not since Sakurai wanted Bandai-Namco to have no special attention character-wise(this may be why he uses Pac-Man to reference a few other series, even if he largely based him upon his own classic style). As I said, I don't believe Pac-Man represents Classic Namco that much. The stages do through music, but that's about it. Pooka is a Pac-Man enemy since World. If somebody knows if Bacuras(the Xevious enemy) made a single appearance in Pac-Man, then I can buy where the exception exists. Note that its Universe is specifically Xevious, however, so the exception still is a bit more than it needed to be. Likewise, as pointed out, patterns do not make for an extremely logical approach. Sakurai does not follow them to a t. Pokemon broke it going into 4. It introduced 2 new characters in the first game, 2 in Melee, 4(5 if you count Pokemon Trainer as his own guy, but only 4 are directly playable on the battlefield), and 1 in For. He put Yoshi among the Mario characters in Smash 4 despite spending tons of time separating them everywhere outside of Event Matches sometimes(where everyone who were common characters to exist or cameo in the Mario universe could team up). Patterns aren't strong, and Sakurai clearly does not find them key. Also, even if you want to slightly differentiate it for Pokemon, every game had two new slots for a playable character. Smash 4 does not, as Charizard is a veteran, and even that pushes it, since Sakurai made it clear Brawl had 39 playable characters already, meaning that he can't be counted as a newcomer. The pattern could exist(a pretty flimsy pattern, anyway) if we got two completely new characters in slots this time around, but we didn't for Pokemon. Basically, patterns aren't evidence, they're probably not even something that matters. Even if he thinks about it, it doesn't really show up in the games enough to think he cares about it.

 

[SS-bros14]

Gematsu arguments? Thought these were dead...
Anyway, I always though it was real. People always say things like "Oh please, ANYONE could've guessed these characters easily!" even though there wasn't another leak with this much credibility that turned out fake. And of course there's the "He didn't predict _______!" argument, but that argument isn't very good either since it was never said that he was leaking all the characters. Yes, he got a few names wrong, but there's still the spectualtion that his source just saw an early roster planning document (Which would explain Chrom and Pokemon from X/Y). Also, he predicted Wii Fit Trainer, which is a pretty hard character to predict, and called the Mii's Mii Fighter, which also no one else really saw coming.
Also, didn't the Ninka and/or Vaanrose leak call Duck Hunt Duck Hunt Dog? Why aren't we calling those fake?
Edit: Almost forgot, the Chorus Kids and Chrom. Chorus Kids most likely were planned, seeing the representation it got with trophies and a Smash Run enemy. But since the Ice Climbers didn't work, Sakurai probably didn't even bother trying to put in the kids. With Chrom, Sakurai did say he was planned but then scrapped, because of reasons already known (Chrom would be too similar to Marth and Ike, blah blah blah).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Gematsu arguments? Thought these were dead...
Anyway, I always though it was real. People always say things like "Oh please, ANYONE could've guessed these characters easily!" even though there wasn't another leak with this much credibility that turned out fake. And of course there's the "He didn't predict _______!" argument, but that argument isn't very good either since it was never said that he was leaking all the characters. Yes, he got a few names wrong, but there's still the spectualtion that his source just saw an early roster planning document (Which would explain Chrom and Pokemon from X/Y). Also, he predicted Wii Fit Trainer, which is a pretty hard character to predict, and called the Mii's Mii Fighter, which also no one else really saw coming.
Also, didn't the Ninka and/or Vaanrose leak call Duck Hunt Duck Hunt Dog? Why aren't we calling those fake?
Edit: Almost forgot, the Chorus Kids and Chrom. Chorus Kids most likely were planned, seeing the representation it got with trophies and a Smash Run enemy. But since the Ice Climbers didn't work, Sakurai probably didn't even bother trying to put in the kids. With Chrom, Sakurai did say he was planned but then scrapped, because of reasons already known (Chrom would be too similar to Marth and Ike, blah blah blah).

Actually, he said he considered Chrom specifically. Unless that was a poor translation of the interview, we only know for a fact that Sakurai thought of him, but not that he was outright planned at all.

To clarify for Mii Fighters, while somebody could guess that name, guessing it just as it was going to be revealed along with Palutena accurately is a pretty huge coincidence, one that has a beyond unlikely chance. Even Wii Fit Trainer was more guessable as a character to play as than this exact combination of events. I mean, somebody did before, you know? Villager is more murky, but only the name usage. Nobody knew that name, and Animal Crossing Guy was as accurate as you were going to get for the player character, outside of the word Boy or Girl instead of Guy.

Please note some of my replies on why I don't believe the Smash Run enemy is strong enough to make Chorus Men likely. To keep it simple;
-Xevious, Find Mii, Ice Climbers, and Rhythm Heaven all have Smash Run enemies but no playable character.
-If Xevious is an exception because of Namco having a character already, then Rhythm Heaven can potentially being an exception too. Find Mii may have been the original symbol for Mii, since Sakurai did say he turned the Miis into Mii Fighters to make them completely unique.
-We have no evidence to suggest that Chorus Men were even programmed, or were going to be similar to Ice Climbers at all.
-Chrom was removed from either being planned or considered due to being boring. How do we know Sakurai didn't find a Rhythm Heaven character boring as well?(er, that might've sounded weird, but eh. You get what I mean, right?)
-In the end, it's ultimately anecdotal and they're nothing pointing to Chorus Men outside of a leaker's word. Especially since him putting in a few false bits to avoid being cut is just as believable. Or even that it wasn't just a Rhythm Heaven character in general, and he guessed Chorus Men. Chrom could be similar, being listed as Fire Emblem: Awakening character.