D. Disciple
Smash Master
Server: irc.globalgamers.net
Channel: #LucarioMeta
Re-Opening! Sunday, June 5th
[collapse=Pikachu MU]Session Start: Sun Nov 21 17:51:00 2010
Session Ident: #LucarioMeta
03[17:51] * Now talking in #LucarioMeta
03[19:01] * VeeVee (webirc@pool-71-160-192-123.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:01] <VeeVee> eh yo
[19:01] <VeeVee> hows dat metagame up in hurr
[19:01] <VeeVee> brb
01[19:02] <D_Disciple> sweet
[19:02] <VeeVee> back
01[19:02] <D_Disciple> anymore pika mains?
[19:02] <VeeVee> hmm
[19:02] <VeeVee> well
[19:02] <VeeVee> you could do two things
[19:03] <VeeVee> one, you could attempt to commandeer the pikachat
01[19:03] <D_Disciple> I'm reposting in there right now lol
[19:03] <VeeVee> or two you could go there and try and get them to come here
[19:03] <VeeVee> i think a lot of them dont know much about irc though
03[19:03] * Pitbull (webirc@pool-98-112-162-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:03] <VeeVee> btw by pikachat i mean here
[19:03] <VeeVee> http://xat.com/highvoltageclan
01[19:04] <D_Disciple> yeah I knew what you meant
[19:05] <@Linkshot> Pikas
[19:05] <@Linkshot> I see Pikas
03[19:05] * mr_evil (webirc@cpe-72-177-146-243.satx.res.rr.com) has joined #LucarioMeta
03[19:06] * mr_evil is now known as asdfasdf
03[19:06] * asdfasdf is now known as Pikabunz
01[19:06] <D_Disciple> the pika chat is a bit hostile
03[19:06] * Linkshot changes topic to 'PIKAS. PIKAS EVERYWHERE. DISCUSS LIGHT BALL SUB ENCORE PIKACHU VS SD LUCARIO-- ER, I MEAN THE PIKA:CARIO MATCHUP'
[19:06] <VeeVee> i dunno why theyre being mean
[19:06] <Pikabunz> it's you tag
[19:07] <VeeVee> well
[19:07] <Pikabunz>
[19:07] <@Linkshot> (P.S. Pikachu speed ties with Lucario and OHKOs with Light Ball Tbolt)
[19:07] <VeeVee> oh theres prime
[19:07] <@Linkshot> (Whoever wins the speed tie takes down their opponent)
[19:07] <VeeVee> whats me
[19:08] <Pikabunz> if disciple was there alone
01[19:08] <D_Disciple> k, let's start it up and if anyone else joins. They can jump in
[19:08] <Pikabunz> they would've listened
01[19:08] <D_Disciple> major sad face
[19:08] <@Linkshot> So
[19:08] <VeeVee> oh, youre the only pika in there atm though
[19:09] <@Linkshot> Who has experienced the Pikachu v Lucario matchup at high levels?
[19:09] <VeeVee> that still plays
[19:09] <@Linkshot> I HAVEN'T
[19:09] <Pikabunz> :/
[19:09] <Pikabunz> don't know if i'll be much help
03[19:09] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:09] <Pikabunz> I lose to Trela all the time
01[19:09] <D_Disciple> ugh, I need to grab trela or RT
[19:09] <Pikabunz> trelbell
03[19:09] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has left #LucarioMeta
01[19:10] <D_Disciple> oh sweet Browny's here
[19:10] <VeeVee> i need to play pitbull or flamewave sometime
[19:10] <VeeVee> i used to play pitbull a lot
[19:10] <VeeVee> like, 6 months ago
[19:10] <VeeVee> err, longer
[19:10] <@Linkshot> I'm bugging Flammie right now.
01[19:10] <D_Disciple> recent pika I played was Leaf
01[19:10] <D_Disciple> I didn't get to play K Prime at all
[19:11] <@Linkshot> I have one Pika in my region that I never get to play and isn't a pro level.
[19:11] <Pitbull> We played each other before, VeeVee?
[19:11] <@Linkshot> Flammie is Skyping for work.
[19:11] <VeeVee> pitbull its truth xD
[19:11] <@Linkshot> So no Flammie tonight
[19:11] <@Linkshot> Siiiiiiigh
[19:11] <VeeVee> i think the last time we played was tournament you ownd me
01[19:12] <D_Disciple> k, well Flame wont be here until 8 central time
[19:12] <VeeVee> i was just remembering like, last year when we would play at camamans a lot
[19:13] <Pitbull> Oh I remember now
[19:13] <Pitbull> the name threw me off
01[19:13] <D_Disciple> Anyway, let's begin
[19:13] <VeeVee> lol, yeah
01[19:13] <D_Disciple> Starting off with pikachu mains, what would you guys consider to staple approach in this match up.
01[19:14] <D_Disciple> and what you should be avoiding from Lucario
[19:15] <Pikabunz> jolts to approach
[19:15] <Pikabunz> that's all pika has
[19:15] <VeeVee> I think Prime probably is more reliable for info in general because hes played a lot more, my very minor experience is from over a year ago
[19:15] <@Linkshot> I'd assume Pikachu spams QAC
[19:15] <@Linkshot> Back and forth
[19:15] <VeeVee> QAC i think lucario would beat
[19:15] <@Linkshot> While Luc cries
[19:15] <Pikabunz> I never used qa to attack
[19:15] <@Linkshot> I think it clashes with fTilt and Jab, and fSmash doesn't come out fast enough.
[19:16] <VeeVee> the only other approach I might try is maybe something with a full hop
01[19:17] <D_Disciple> utilt beats it.
[19:17] <VeeVee> well
[19:17] <VeeVee> it takes prediction of sorts
[19:17] <VeeVee> tbh
[19:17] <VeeVee> im not sure if it would work cause
[19:17] <VeeVee> ive never done it vs lucario
[19:17] <VeeVee> just marth and ics
[19:17] <VeeVee> but if you think theyre going to utilt or shield
[19:18] <VeeVee> you can spotdodge and reverse grab
[19:18] <VeeVee> err
[19:18] <VeeVee> air dodge
[19:18] <VeeVee> but idk if that would work against lucario
01[19:18] <D_Disciple> what about fthrowing us?
01[19:19] <D_Disciple> would you guys wait for us to react before approaching, or try to get a usmash right after?
[19:19] <VeeVee> lucarios lame, i dont think we have any follow ups from oujr fthrow
[19:19] <VeeVee> i cant remember though
[19:19] <VeeVee> he's like, one of 3 or 4 characters like that
[19:19] <Pikabunz> i think we can fthrow upsmash at 0-10
01[19:19] <D_Disciple> well we can airwalk (non-momentum dair) after the fthrow.
[19:20] <Pikabunz> pika has nothng with dthrow
[19:20] <Pikabunz> usmash still hits
[19:21] <Pikabunz> also ff fair to follow up doesn't work on lucario
03[19:21] * hichez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:21] <Pikabunz> he can just dair
[19:22] <hichez> hello
[19:22] <hichez> so
[19:22] <Pikabunz> everything good that pika can do won't work on lucario pretty much
[19:22] <VeeVee> make sure you SDI the fair up though
01[19:23] <D_Disciple> hichez we're discussing approaching options
[19:23] <Pikabunz> the only time pika has the advantage is offstage
[19:23] <Pikabunz> you don't have to sdi the fair
[19:23] <Pikabunz> just dair if you get hit by it
[19:23] <Pikabunz> always works
[19:23] <VeeVee> oh, nm
03[19:23] * ElNoNombreHombre (ElNoNombre@c-24-16-158-136.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:24] <VeeVee> sup ENNH
[19:24] <Pikabunz> uair footstool doesn't really work
[19:24] <hichez> that was quick
[19:24] <hichez> does that mean pika is limited to thunder jolt spamming
[19:24] <Pikabunz> he's one of the hardest characters to do it to
[19:24] <Pikabunz> yeah i think so
[19:24] <ElNoNombreHombre> tjolt means you eat an AS if you do it dumbly.
[19:24] <Pikabunz> lucario can easily cancel jolts
[19:24] <VeeVee> jolts can = punishment
[19:25] <VeeVee> pretty laggy and sometimes aura just eats them and keeps going
[19:25] <VeeVee> *AS
[19:25] <hichez> oh
[19:25] <hichez> can't you jump and use it.
[19:25] <VeeVee> even worse
[19:25] <VeeVee> then youre stuck in the air while AS hits you
[19:25] <VeeVee> although you sometimes do want to jump and use it
[19:25] <ElNoNombreHombre> The move's so laggy that even if we hop then tjolt right away, we're nearly on the ground when we get to act again.
[19:26] <VeeVee> just probably not while he has a charged AS
[19:26] <hichez> VeeVee you should only worry about that when lucario is 80+
[19:26] <hichez> How about long distance
[19:27] <Pikabunz> how fast is lucario's fsmash?
[19:27] <Pikabunz> er slo
[19:27] <VeeVee> yeah theyre usually ok then
[19:27] <Pikabunz> slow
[19:27] <hichez> fsmash is on the slow side but it just has broken range
01[19:27] <D_Disciple> brb, checking the frames
01[19:28] <D_Disciple> hitbox comes out on frame 21
[19:28] <hichez> What grab combos does pika have on cario?
01[19:28] <D_Disciple> we can interrupt on frame 36
[19:28] <VeeVee> so 15 frames of lag?
[19:28] <VeeVee> is there an easy way to know how much shield stun it does?
01[19:29] <D_Disciple> yea
[19:29] <VeeVee> *calculate
[19:29] <ElNoNombreHombre> fthrow->usmash I think is pretty much it.
01[19:29] <D_Disciple> hitbox ends on frame 30
[19:29] <VeeVee> oh so more like 6 frames of lag
[19:29] <Pikabunz> i don't think pika can punish fsmash on shield
[19:29] <Pikabunz> you gotta ps
[19:29] <hichez> Pikachu is worse in this matchup than I previously though
01[19:30] <D_Disciple> ps to usmash would work right?
01[19:30] <D_Disciple> can't even do it out of ordinary shield?
[19:30] <Pikabunz> only if you're near him
[19:30] <VeeVee> whats lucarios quickest move
[19:30] <Pikabunz> ps to run usmash probably won't work
01[19:31] <D_Disciple> jab 1
[19:31] <Pikabunz> how fast is that?
01[19:31] <D_Disciple> hitbox on frame 6, ends on frame 9
[19:31] <hichez> up tilt is faster
[19:31] <Pikabunz> wow
01[19:31] <D_Disciple> can interrupt on the 10th frame
[19:31] <Pikabunz> lucario is slow
[19:31] <hichez> it comes out on frame 5
01[19:32] <D_Disciple> wait yeah, utilt is faster
01[19:32] <D_Disciple> hitbox comes out on frame 5, ends on frame 15
01[19:32] <D_Disciple> completes on frame 32
[19:32] <VeeVee> btw to confirm, fsmash only has 6 frames of lag from the end of its hitbox?
[19:32] <hichez> the problem with uptilt is that we have to be facing the opposite direction and the knock back isn't that great
[19:32] <hichez> at early percents
[19:33] <VeeVee> utilt starts in back of you?
01[19:33] <D_Disciple> dtilt ends faster though. comes out on frame 9, ends on frame 15, completes on frame 25
[19:33] <hichez> yeah
[19:33] <VeeVee> ah, interesting
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> oh yeah, shippo wants us to stall until he can get on his computer.
[19:35] <Pikabunz> lucario can shield to fsmash all of pika's smashes
[19:35] <Pikabunz> :o
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> Since he wants to enlighten us with his pika knowledge
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> wait, are you serious?
[19:35] <Pikabunz> yep
[19:35] <Pikabunz> pika's smashes are laggy as hell
[19:35] <VeeVee> yeah
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> I know we can force palm you after your smashes
01[19:36] <D_Disciple> but didn't think fsmash would work
[19:36] <VeeVee> it might not work if theyre charged
[19:36] <Pikabunz> maybe
[19:36] <Pikabunz> with upsmash
[19:36] <VeeVee> dsmash you can pretty much punish with your strongest move
[19:36] <Pikabunz> fsmash is laggier
[19:36] <Pikabunz> than dsmash
[19:36] <VeeVee> yeah but ppl always get outta dsmash
[19:37] <VeeVee> before it ends
[19:37] <VeeVee> if it hits their shield
03[19:37] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:37] <chez> some reason I got kicked
[19:37] <Pikabunz> what's dsmash's speed?
01[19:38] <D_Disciple> ours?
[19:38] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:38] <chez> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211488
[19:38] <chez> there is lucario's frame data
01[19:38] <D_Disciple> yeah, that's where I've been getting my info from
[19:39] <Pikabunz> hmm
[19:40] <Pikabunz> you can fsmash/dsmash our dair and bair i think
02[19:41] * hichez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:41] <chez> why would you be using bair
[19:41] <Pikabunz> it's fun
[19:41] <Pikabunz>
[19:42] <VeeVee> lucarios bair?
[19:42] <Pikabunz> our bair
[19:42] <chez> no pikas
[19:42] <VeeVee> lucarios bair is good in this mu
[19:42] <VeeVee> and prime you mean the landing hitbox?
03[19:42] * Shippo (webirc@pool-71-172-48-157.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
01[19:42] <D_Disciple> okay, let's talk stages
01[19:42] <D_Disciple> oh look who it is
[19:42] <Shippo> FINALLY
[19:42] <Shippo> IM HERE
[19:42] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:43] <chez> yo
01[19:43] <D_Disciple> what stages would you guys ban against Lucario
01[19:43] <D_Disciple> and counter pick against him
[19:43] <VeeVee> I dont know much about stages. pikas only inherrently bad stage is brinstar imo
[19:43] <Pikabunz> our dair has 40 frames of landing lag
[19:43] <Pikabunz> lol
[19:43] <Shippo> Is anyone else comming?
[19:43] <chez> I thought BF was pretty bad for pika
01[19:43] <D_Disciple> Flame will be here soon
[19:44] <VeeVee> battlefield?
[19:44] <chez> BF=battlefield
[19:44] <Pikabunz> i like bf
[19:44] <VeeVee> yeah me too
[19:45] <chez> I thought the platforms limited tjolt and thunder
[19:45] <Shippo> they do a bit
[19:45] <VeeVee> platforms can be really good for jolts
[19:45] <Pikabunz> ^
[19:45] <Shippo> Limits most thunder options
[19:45] <VeeVee> because they circle around, and catch ppl
[19:45] <VeeVee> thunder you generally
[19:45] <VeeVee> dont use on the ground
[19:46] <VeeVee> id say a better way of putting it is it limits T2
[19:46] <Pikabunz> pretty much
[19:46] <VeeVee> i feel like platforms make it easier for pika to start combos too
[19:46] <Pikabunz> though the thunder not hitting you makes you lag more
[19:46] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:46] <Pikabunz> pika is really good at pressuring on platforms
[19:46] <chez> oh never knew that
[19:47] <Pikabunz> when the other person on on platforms
[19:47] <Pikabunz> i mean
[19:47] <Pikabunz> is*
[19:47] <VeeVee> oh, pitbulls played chocos pika recently. you should talk to him too, chocos pika is very good
[19:49] <ElNoNombreHombre> What's the relative range of lucario's dair vs pika's uair?
[19:49] <chez> unless you can time I wouldn't use it
01[19:49] <D_Disciple> good question
[19:50] <ElNoNombreHombre> I'm not sure pika can really give good platform harassment because of it, tbh.
[19:50] <VeeVee> ive tried the dair vs uair thing
[19:50] <Shippo> I love this matchup btw :#
[19:50] <VeeVee> imo
[19:50] <Pikabunz> dair beats uair
[19:50] <VeeVee> its not worth it
[19:50] <chez> yep
[19:50] <Shippo> I have never lost to a Pika :3
[19:50] <VeeVee> uair if youre really really lucky
[19:51] <VeeVee> will hit from an angle
[19:51] <VeeVee> or something
[19:51] <Shippo> Dair is so easy to catch though, if you're able to get close to pika you'll both get hit.
[19:51] <Pikabunz> uair wins if pika uses it from the side
[19:51] <Shippo> thats true
[19:51] <chez> Is pikas main problem getting the kill. What percent should lucario generally be dying at?
[19:51] <Shippo> wait
[19:51] <Shippo> yours ot our uair
[19:52] <VeeVee> pikas uair can hit from a diagnol
[19:52] <Pikabunz> 130-150ish?
[19:52] <VeeVee> also, you should always be scared to die
[19:52] <VeeVee> starting at like
[19:52] <chez> v
[19:52] <VeeVee> 80
[19:52] <VeeVee> but
[19:52] <VeeVee> you shouldnt be dying early
[19:52] <Pikabunz> we can get a lucky thunder
[19:52] <Pikabunz>
[19:52] <Pikabunz> or fsmash
[19:52] <VeeVee> pikas fsmash is also really strong
[19:52] <Pikabunz> fsmash is pretty strong
03[19:52] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has left #LucarioMeta
03[19:52] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:52] <VeeVee> and dsmash if you fall into the last hit
[19:52] <VeeVee> can sometimes kill
[19:53] <VeeVee> so make sure you always get out
[19:53] <Shippo> Thunder
[19:53] <VeeVee> or dont get hit by the last hit
[19:53] <Shippo> should NEVER kill us
[19:53] <Shippo> ever
[19:53] <VeeVee> btw
[19:53] <VeeVee> i think i saw somewhere someone said you should use counter for thunder
[19:53] <Shippo> yeah
[19:53] <Shippo> me
[19:53] <Shippo> :3
03[19:53] * hichez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:53] <VeeVee> im pretty sure air dodge is always the best option though >.>
[19:53] <VeeVee> idk ask prime
[19:53] <Shippo> depends
[19:54] <Shippo> you can get caught with your DI then fall into it
[19:54] <Shippo> you can press down b in reaction to
[19:54] <Shippo> "PIKA"
[19:54] <VeeVee> the only reason i suggest air dodge
[19:54] <VeeVee> is because thats the quickest thing you can do
[19:54] <VeeVee> out of hitstun
[19:54] <VeeVee> so at higher percents
[19:54] <VeeVee> it might come out in time
[19:54] <Pikabunz> air dodge is the fastest option
[19:54] <VeeVee> where a b move would not
[19:54] <Pikabunz> for avoiding thunder
01[19:55] <D_Disciple> best thing to avoid thunder, is to di away from pika when pops Lucario up
[19:55] <hichez> What your opponet realizes that you keep air dodging and just punishes it.
[19:55] <Pikabunz> airdodge always comes out on frame 14 after being hit
[19:55] <Pikabunz> or is it 12
[19:55] <Pikabunz> hmm
[19:55] <Pikabunz> but more damage doesn't delay your air dodge
[19:55] <Pikabunz> it's always the same frame
[19:55] <VeeVee> yeah, the only certain way youll avoid thunder
[19:55] <VeeVee> is
[19:56] <VeeVee> to DI the hit that knocks you up
03[19:56] * Red_Ryu (red_ryu@129.89.188.211) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:56] <VeeVee> if you go straight up (usually utilt) youre in a very unsafe postiion
03[19:56] * Fall (Nathan1337@76-216-141-134.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:56] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:56] <Fall> it didn't end yet right
[19:56] <Fall> I just got out of my meeting
[19:56] <Shippo> no
[19:56] <Fall> :x
[19:56] <Red_Ryu> looks like I got back in time, even if I am late :<
[19:56] <hichez> I have seen a couple of pikas guess and use a B reversed thunder and make contact.
[19:56] <Fall> No Esam?
[19:56] <Shippo> yeah
[19:57] <Pikabunz> best option is to airdodge and di to one side
[19:57] <Fall> brb
[19:57] <Red_Ryu> dodging thunder right?
[19:57] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:57] <Shippo> Double team is also a good option against stray bolts
[19:57] <Shippo> circling a platform above you
[19:57] <Red_Ryu> yeah that is the correct method
[19:57] <Fall> Contacting Loli to contact to nick
[19:57] <Fall> to contact esam
01[19:57] <D_Disciple> I couldn't get a hold of esam
[19:57] <VeeVee> if pika is jumping at you with a jolt double team can be good
01[19:57] <D_Disciple> wish we can get kprime in here too
[19:57] <Shippo> you can't react to that
02[19:57] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:58] <Pikabunz> >>
[19:58] <Pikabunz> <<
[19:58] <Red_Ryu> Lucario Double teaming Thunder is nice sometimes
[19:58] <VeeVee> Xd
[19:58] <VeeVee> kprime is here
[19:58] <VeeVee> *xD
[19:58] <Shippo> cause i've played many pikeas
[19:58] <Shippo> and they love mixing up aerial approaces
[19:58] <Pikabunz> yeah i'm prime
[19:58] <Shippo> and luc doesn't have to approach pikachu
01[19:58] <D_Disciple> ooohhh
01[19:58] <D_Disciple> >.>
[19:58] <VeeVee> most pikachus are on a bit later
[19:58] <Pikabunz> hehe
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> k, what would you guys ban against Lucario, I don't think you guys answered that
[19:59] <hichez> In my expience pikachu's just bait and use run away tactics.
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> I heard brinstar, just in general
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> Technically if you PS everything you can make it so your not forced to approach
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> but still
[19:59] <VeeVee> what are lucarios best stages?
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> if you mess up your getting camped
[19:59] <VeeVee> i cant think of any stage that helps lucario particularly in the MU
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> Frigate and YI are usually picks
[19:59] <Pikabunz> lucarios like yi right?
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> yes
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> yeah
[19:59] <hichez> YI and FD are lucarios best neutrals
[19:59] <Pikabunz> frigate?
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> I like FD a lot
[20:00] <Fall> I like
[20:00] <Fall> CPing
[20:00] <Fall> Castle Siege
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> Prigate is a stage Luc takes with some characters
[20:00] <Fall> in this one
01[20:00] <D_Disciple> we know flame!
[20:00] <Fall> :D
01[20:00] <D_Disciple> we know!
01[20:00] <D_Disciple> lol
[20:00] <Fall> But
[20:00] <Fall> it works
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> in this MU probably not
[20:00] <Fall> **** you guys
[20:00] <Fall> We **** pikachu
[20:00] <Fall> on 2nd
[20:00] <Fall> and 3rd transformations
[20:00] <VeeVee> oh, who is flame
[20:00] <VeeVee> flame we need to play
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> Brinstar is nice in this MU
[20:00] <Fall> Thats me
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> for Luc
[20:00] <Shippo> I LOVE playing on frigate
[20:01] <Fall> Fall = FlameWaveK
[20:01] <Shippo> it makes pikachu recovering on the first half a LOT harder
[20:01] <VeeVee> the one thing id say about brinstar in this MU is to be careful
[20:01] <VeeVee> bc
[20:01] <Fall> Who is VeeVee
[20:01] <Fall> :x
[20:01] <VeeVee> you could die earlier then expected
[20:01] <VeeVee> Im veevee
[20:01] <Fall> I don't think I've heard of you
[20:01] <hichez> how long is this going to last
[20:01] <Fall> or know why we need to play
[20:01] <Red_Ryu> you could but Luc still gains more from the stage itself than vice versa
[20:01] <Fall> but
[20:01] <Fall> ok
[20:01] <Fall> **** CPing brinstar
[20:01] <Fall> everyone goes metaknight
[20:01] <VeeVee> its truth offline
[20:02] <Red_Ryu> meh
[20:02] <Fall> oh
[20:02] <Fall> SUP TRUTH
[20:02] <Shippo> I CP Frigate
[20:02] <Red_Ryu> I'd rather fight MK there than on Cruise
[20:02] <Fall> I HEARD MONTEBELLOS GOT CANCELED
[20:02] <Shippo> I actually CP'd to rainbow cruise
[20:02] <Shippo> and timed someone out
[20:02] <Shippo> :3
[20:02] <Fall> Why no calling me up and coming to my smashfest
[20:02] <Fall> D:
[20:02] <Pitbull> Spreading rumors never amounts to anything good
[20:02] <Fall> oh
[20:02] <Fall> I heard
[20:02] <Fall> from
[20:02] <Fall> Stridez
[20:02] <Fall> so
[20:02] <VeeVee> wait what
[20:02] <Fall> idk how true it is
[20:02] <VeeVee> montebello canceled yuesterday?
01[20:03] <D_Disciple> guys
01[20:03] <D_Disciple> stay on track
[20:03] <VeeVee> lol flame we need to talk somewhere else i guess
[20:03] <Shippo> rumors?
[20:03] <Fall> AIM and skype = FlameWaveK
[20:03] <Fall> Anyways
[20:03] <Fall> I'm just
[20:03] <Fall> Going to Say my take on this MU
[20:04] <Red_Ryu> If they can get kills earlier Pika can do better in this match-up
[20:04] <Fall> Pikachu has a hard time coming in our zoning without getting *****, but I've seen pikachus do good as long as they're not "OMG THIS IS SO GAY I HATE IT"
[20:04] <Fall> they can luck out with early thunder kills too
[20:04] <Fall> You can argue that this is a free ride
[20:04] <Red_Ryu> Like when people airdodge them wrong
[20:04] <Fall> But
[20:04] <Fall> DON'T take pikachu lightly
[20:04] <Fall> He has tons of mix-ups
[20:04] <Red_Ryu> I don't think Luc has any MU that is a free ride outside of Ganon
[20:05] <Fall> and his approach/grab game is pretty dumb
[20:05] <Fall> I haven't played a pikachu
[20:05] <Fall> that straight out abused my recovery though
[20:05] <Fall> yet
[20:05] <Shippo> well
[20:05] <Fall> lolz
[20:05] <Shippo> pikachu's up b mixup mindgames
[20:05] <Shippo> dont work on cario
[20:05] <Red_Ryu> When I played DLA he struggled to kill me
[20:05] <Shippo> as we can SH nair
[20:05] <Shippo> and cover the mixup
[20:05] <Red_Ryu> wtith Pikachu
01[20:05] <D_Disciple> yeah that was the first thing we said shippo
[20:06] <Fall> I don't
[20:06] <Fall> Refer
[20:06] <Fall> to Pikachu using the UpB
[20:06] <Fall> as an approach
[20:06] <Fall> I think its more used to clear space
[20:06] <Shippo> mix up
[20:06] <Shippo> MIX UP
[20:06] <Fall> w.e.
03[20:06] * LoliLovesNick (LoliLovesR@adsl-10-246-81.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[20:06] <Fall> I actually have an easy time reacting to UpB mix-ups
[20:06] <Fall> Hi loli!
[20:06] <Fall> <3
[20:06] <LoliLovesNick> lol i was seeing wtf this was that u wanted esam for
01[20:07] <D_Disciple> k, pikachu mains
[20:07] <LoliLovesNick> so i can actually TELL him
[20:07] <Fall> Oh
[20:07] <VeeVee> lol
[20:07] <Fall> This is a
[20:07] <hichez> I don't see that many up B mix ups being that sucessful
[20:07] <Fall> discussion chat
01[20:07] <D_Disciple> what would be your punishing options against us
[20:07] <Fall> about the lucario vs pikachu match-up
[20:07] <VeeVee> well
[20:07] <Fall> pretty much
[20:07] <VeeVee> pikachus upb might be safe if he doesnt land near you as a mixup
[20:07] <Fall> Pikachu's UpB makes him fat
[20:07] <VeeVee> but as far as actually hitting you with an nair etc
[20:07] <Red_Ryu> if he lands away from us it's safe
[20:07] <VeeVee> its unsafe
03[20:07] * LoliLovesNick (LoliLovesR@adsl-10-246-81.mia.bellsouth.net) has left #LucarioMeta
[20:07] <VeeVee> the most dangerous parts of up b
[20:08] <Fall> I don't like pikachu's UpB
[20:08] <VeeVee> are when hes starting
[20:08] <Fall> when I'm waking up though
[20:08] <Fall>
[20:08] <VeeVee> stick between the movements
[20:08] <VeeVee> or ending
[20:08] <Red_Ryu> Ohn yeah don't get footstooled by Pikachu
[20:08] <VeeVee> when hes actually moving its not that bad
[20:08] <Red_Ryu> QACL
[20:08] <Red_Ryu> it's pretty dumb lol
[20:09] <Shippo> also stutterstep fsmashing with lucario
[20:09] <Shippo> it pretty dumb
[20:09] <Red_Ryu> ...uhhh sort of
[20:09] <Fall> i don't like doing it vs pikachu
[20:09] <hichez> shippo when you say dumb is it a good or bad thing
[20:10] <Fall> I use ftilt more
02[20:10] * Pikabunz (webirc@cpe-72-177-146-243.satx.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[20:10] <Red_Ryu> If they are landing/edge I use it
[20:10] <Fall> I've actually been
[20:10] <Fall> Upsmashed before the fsmash hitbox came out
[20:10] <Fall> ala fox style
[20:10] <Fall> <_<
[20:10] <Red_Ryu> The move is fine on block, but the start-up is asking to be punished if Pikachu is up close
[20:11] <Fall> but um
[20:11] <Fall> I think
[20:11] <Fall> our close up game
[20:11] <Fall> IE
[20:11] <Fall> jab range
[20:11] <Fall> is a little better
[20:11] <Fall> even if pikachus jab is faster
[20:12] <Fall> I don't think its safe on block
[20:12] <Red_Ryu> jab and Ftilt are fine upclose
[20:12] <Fall> We're most in trouble when he's out of jab/grab range
[20:12] <Fall> and he can dtilt us
[20:12] <Fall> pikachu's horse kick is pretty safe on us too I think
[20:12] <Red_Ryu> His Dtilt outranges our ftilt?
[20:12] <Fall> faster
[20:12] <Red_Ryu> oh
[20:13] <Fall> trips a fair margin of the time too
[20:13] <Fall> So
[20:13] <Fall> Lucs
[20:13] <Fall> How do we go about
[20:14] <Fall> Edgeguarding Pikachu
[20:14] <Fall> in terms of
[20:14] <Fall> doing damage to him
[20:14] <Fall> not gimping him
[20:14] <Fall> [which is impossible]
[20:14] <Shippo> Oh
[20:14] <Shippo> Stutter Step Fsmash the ledge
[20:14] <Shippo> thats the best thing you can do
[20:14] <Shippo> and hold a fully charged aurasphere
[20:14] <Shippo> fair him if he gets off the ledge
[20:15] <Shippo> then fair him again
[20:15] <Shippo> jump back, you should ALWAYS make it
[20:15] <Shippo> then proceed to keep edgeguarding him
[20:15] <hichez> what happens if he decided to upp off the ledge
[20:15] <hichez> *up B
[20:16] <Fall> invincible nair work Vs his SideB UpB?
[20:16] <ElNoNombreHombre> invincible nair?
[20:17] <Fall> grab the ledge
01[20:17] <D_Disciple> nairing from the ledge
[20:17] <Fall> back off
[20:17] <Fall> nair with the invincibility frames
01[20:17] <D_Disciple> the invincibility frames
[20:17] <Fall> a metaknight/pikachu/peach/ any character with a good nair staple
[20:18] <Fall> I gotta say though
[20:18] <Fall> I've
[20:18] <Fall> never played
[20:18] <Fall> Anther/ESAM tier pikachus
[20:18] <Fall> ><
[20:19] <hichez> is anther still active?
[20:19] <Shippo> I played pikapika
01[20:19] <D_Disciple> only in MI i hear
[20:19] <Shippo> RJ beat Esam in a MM
[20:19] <hichez> oh
[20:19] <Red_Ryu> Yeah I haven't played a top level pika
[20:19] <Red_Ryu> beat I've played was DLA's Pika that he secondaries
[20:19] <Fall> Anther still plays hisoutensoku
[20:20] <Fall> LOL
[20:20] <Fall> idk what else to say
[20:20] <Fall> someone suggest a topic
01[20:20] <D_Disciple> k, I wanted to do this with the wolf discussion but it failed miserably
[20:20] <Pitbull> Stages to not fight Pika on
[20:20] <hichez> the only pika main I played would be scatz he is decent
03[20:20] * RT (rt@c-76-30-94-15.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
01[20:20] <D_Disciple> wanted to analyze a match
[20:20] <Fall> Oh
[20:20] <Fall> which match?
01[20:20] <D_Disciple> and what better one than Lee Martin vs Esam
[20:21] <Fall> Shippo vs Esam
[20:21] <Fall> clearly
[20:21] <Fall> buht
[20:21] <Fall> link?
01[20:21] <D_Disciple> hold up
01[20:21] <D_Disciple> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqIZW5wHgEs
[20:21] <Red_Ryu> Lee wasn't doing the match well :/
[20:21] <Shippo> lee also on the hardest stage for the matchup
[20:21] <Shippo> for lucario
[20:22] <Fall> PS1 isn't hard at all
[20:22] <Red_Ryu> and sick playing that btw
[20:22] <Fall> the ****
[20:22] <Red_Ryu> he was throwing up that weekend
[20:22] <VeeVee> hardest nejutral but im sure pika could pick a gayer stage
01[20:22] <D_Disciple> I want to put up the crew match at MLG Dallas too
[20:22] <RT> If I recall, both Lee and Esam said Lee wasn't playing the matchup right.
01[20:22] <D_Disciple> since they are both at 3 stocks
[20:22] <Fall> its slightly disadvanteus
[20:22] <Fall> if anything
[20:22] <Fall> fighting pikachu on Rainbow is far more annoying
[20:22] <Fall> <_<
[20:23] <Fall> um
[20:23] <Fall> Lee going in
[20:23] <Fall> o
[20:23] <hichez> who has the adv. no rainbow
[20:23] <VeeVee> biggest thing is lee got edgeguarded hard
[20:23] <Fall> even with a lead
[20:23] <VeeVee> he kept airdodging onto the stage
[20:23] <Fall> LEE WHY ARE YOU APPROACHING WITH A STOCK LEAD ON A PS1 TRANSFORMATION
[20:23] <Fall> WTF
[20:23] <Fall> ,_,
[20:23] <Red_Ryu> bad idea when he was doing it into ESAM
[20:24] <Fall> well it worked out for him I guess
[20:24] <Red_Ryu> airdodged int Fsmash teice that match I beleive
[20:24] <hichez> how does lee get away with rolling behin his opponets?
[20:24] <Fall> 1st stock was lost stupidly
[20:24] <VeeVee> air dodge into fsmash and thunder
[20:24] <Fall> Because you have to mix-up it up
[20:24] <Fall> Well enough
[20:24] <Fall> that they don't expect it
[20:24] <Fall> chez
[20:25] <Fall> This Nick commentary
[20:25] <Fall> lolz
[20:25] <RT> The better your opponent is, the more likely they'll get away with dumb stuff.
[20:25] <Fall> WHY
[20:25] <RT> like rolling
[20:25] <Fall> WHY ARE YOU APPROACHING
[20:25] <Fall> meh
[20:25] <VeeVee> lees a stock behind
[20:25] <Fall> no
[20:25] <Fall> 2:30
03[20:25] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[20:25] <Fall> in
[20:25] <VeeVee> oh
[20:25] <Fall> even stocks
[20:25] <Fall> 60 to 50
[20:26] <Fall> on the tree
[20:26] <Fall> WHAT
[20:26] <Fall> HES TAUNTING
[20:26] <Fall> DASH IN
[20:26] <Fall> AND FSMASH FROM THE TREE
[20:26] <Fall> go****
[20:26] <Shippo> This makes me sad
[20:26] <Shippo> :<
[20:26] <Shippo> I can't watch these
[20:26] <Fall> Lee gets thunder'd
[20:26] <Shippo> I swear to god
[20:26] <VeeVee> he airdodge onto the stage 3 times
[20:26] <Fall> this is almost as bad as Lee Vs X
[20:26] <VeeVee> and died the same way all three time
[20:26] <Fall> almost
[20:26] <VeeVee> lol
[20:26] <Shippo> thats a HUGE mistake
[20:26] <Shippo> lee vs x
[20:26] <Shippo> made me sad
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> now then, on a stage that I think favors Lucario a lot.
[20:27] <hichez> Fmash is a great move when your opponent is landing. It seems like a move that shouldn't work.
[20:27] <Browny> DONT WATCH THOSE LEE VS ESAM WVIDS
[20:27] <VeeVee> does sonic beat lucario?
[20:27] <Browny> THEYRE SO WRONG/BAD
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> be careful of the quality
[20:27] <Fall> no lol
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> and no he doesn't
[20:27] <Browny> YOU GET WORSE AT THE GAME BY WATCHING THEM
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFn9wCeOd8
[20:27] <Browny> also, sifnt come to #luc Red_Ryu
03[20:27] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has left #LucarioMeta
[20:27] <Fall> Browny stop trolling
[20:27] <Fall> go****
[20:27] <VeeVee> i was surprised how close this match was
[20:27] <Fall> wheres game 2
[20:27] <Fall> oh
[20:27] <Fall> metaknight
[20:28] <Fall> nvm
01[20:28] <D_Disciple> he goes metaknight lol
[20:28] <Fall> Lee doesn't know how to play the MU
[20:28] <Fall> get done son
[20:28] <RT> both Lee and Esam agreed that Lee played the matchup wrong.
[20:28] <VeeVee> esam seems to punish him a lot when he comes onstage
01[20:28] <D_Disciple> yeah he did a better performance in the crew matcha gainst him.
[20:28] <VeeVee> is lucario have issues gettong back onstage?
[20:29] <VeeVee> *getting
[20:29] <hichez> Lee kept falling for the bait
[20:29] <Fall> Lucario has slight issues getting back
[20:29] <Fall> I guess
[20:29] <Fall> but
01[20:29] <D_Disciple> not really, Lee just kept airdodging into him
[20:29] <Fall> Lee just Airdodgesd
01[20:29] <D_Disciple> esam then would fsmash
[20:29] <Fall> WAY TOO MUCH
[20:29] <Fall> like
[20:29] <Fall> son
[20:29] <Fall> just grab the ledge
[20:29] <Fall> <_<
[20:30] <RT> There are some Trela vs Kprime vids too.
[20:30] <Fall> get them
[20:30] <VeeVee> first kill esam naird him offstage
[20:30] <hichez> Patg told me that if you have use upB as last resort when you need to get away ussally your opponet will punish with a grab
[20:30] <Fall> Trela knows how to play this MU
[20:30] <Fall> hopefully
[20:30] <RT> Youtube it.
01[20:30] <D_Disciple> yeah, I didn't want to throw them up when he was stillin here though
01[20:30] <D_Disciple> but he left
[20:30] <Fall> Trela was here?
[20:30] <Fall> go**** it
[20:30] <Fall> I need to ask him how to do UpB ledge cancels
[20:31] <Fall> THE FLASHIEST LUCARIO WOULD KNOW
[20:31] <RT> LOL
[20:31] <Fall> THAT TRELA FLASH
[20:31] <Red_Ryu> oh Trela
[20:31] <Fall> HYPE HYPE HYPE
[20:31] <hichez> just practice
01[20:31] <D_Disciple> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnlViUgs0Kc last one guys
01[20:31] <D_Disciple> then we can wrap it up
01[20:31] <D_Disciple> cause my comp keeps crashing whenever I try to get a youtube vid
[20:31] <hichez> It really not that reliable as it hard to hit the lip of the stage with lucarios up
[20:31] <Fall> well
[20:32] <Fall> **** you
[20:32] <Fall> imma
[20:32] <Fall> make it reliable
[20:32] <Fall> ;o
[20:32] <hichez> lol
[20:32] <Fall> trela doing good
[20:32] <Fall> passive aggressive tyle
[20:32] <Fall> LOL FAIR KIL
[20:32] <Red_Ryu> WTF
[20:32] <Shippo> I don't have any vids of me playing a lucario :<
[20:32] <Shippo> Yeah
[20:32] <Shippo> Nair works wonders on pikachu
[20:32] <Red_Ryu> Trela is getting my seal of flashyness
[20:32] <Fall> get done son
[20:32] <Red_Ryu> Fair kill is lol
[20:33] <Fall> Kprime getting the business here
[20:33] <Shippo> also thanks to pikachu teaching me how to smash DI his downsmash
[20:33] <Shippo> I almost beat ChiboSempai
01[20:33] <D_Disciple> DI up
[20:33] <Fall> Shippo you shoulda CP'D SV
[20:33] <Fall> :V
[20:33] <hichez> wow kprime got killed by a fair that is just bad.
[20:33] <Fall> UPB CAN CEL
[20:33] <Fall> TRELA FLASH
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> he died from it, cause he did a thunder jolt in front of trela
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> shush Flame
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> even I can do that
[20:34] <Fall> teach me
[20:34] <Fall> :C
[20:34] <Fall> watching matc h2
[20:34] <Fall> Trela starts with a nice string
[20:34] <Fall> playing passive aggressive
[20:34] <Fall> eh
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> k, I've taken up your guys time long enough. Let's wrap this up
[20:34] <Fall> how?
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> overall match up?
[20:34] <Red_Ryu> Grabing people when they run up and shield is something a lot of people should do more
[20:34] <Fall> Lucario's Favor
[20:35] <Shippo> 65:35 Lucario
[20:35] <Shippo> IMO
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> 55:45 or 6:4 Lucario imo
[20:35] <Fall> Disadvantage either slight or Heavy depending on the pikachu's mindst
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> Shippo, 65:35?!
[20:35] <Fall> Shippo thinks its a free ride
[20:35] <Shippo> pikachu doesn't have tools to do much of anything to lucario
[20:35] <Fall> I don't agree
[20:35] <hichez> I say 6:4 lucario
[20:35] <Fall> I think
[20:35] <Fall> pikachu can
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> he has tools to face us
[20:35] <Fall> threaten us
[20:35] <Shippo> I think ddd v lucario is 35:65 Lucario :o
[20:35] <Fall> if he's holding a light ball
[20:35] <Fall> :D
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> Funny I don't
[20:35] <hichez> lucario can get baited too easily and tjolt camping is still half way legit
[20:35] <Fall> Agility + Light Ball
01[20:35] <D_Disciple> veevee you agree?
[20:36] <Fall> Get volt tackled son
[20:36] <Fall> TRUTH GET YOUR BUTT IN HERE
[20:36] <hichez> I say that you give pika a thunderstone
[20:36] <RT> *plays Doryuuzu*
[20:36] <Shippo> >.>
[20:36] <Red_Ryu> At the very least I don't think this is even
[20:36] <RT> You all lose.
[20:36] <RT> Trollololololololol
[20:36] <VeeVee> agree with which one
[20:36] <Fall> nah son
[20:36] <Shippo> but seriously it's heavily in Lucario's favor
01[20:36] <D_Disciple> overall match up
[20:36] <VeeVee> sorry
01[20:36] <D_Disciple> what do you think
[20:36] <VeeVee> catching up
[20:36] <VeeVee> which one though
[20:36] <VeeVee> oh
[20:36] <Shippo> we force lucario to approach, which he isn't very good at.
[20:36] <VeeVee> 6:4 sounds good
[20:36] <Fall> I play that Erefunn RT
[20:37] <Shippo> I guess I can settle on 6:4 :l,
[20:37] <Fall> Get untauntable sleep powder'd
[20:37] <VeeVee> sorry im catching up
[20:37] <VeeVee> on the convo
[20:37] <Fall> MISCHEVIOUS HEART
01[20:37] <D_Disciple> it's cool truth
[20:37] <Shippo> can we stick to the matchup though :/
[20:37] <RT> Fine fine, switch in with my own Erefunn.
[20:37] <VeeVee> alright
[20:37] <Fall> D said we were wrapping up though
[20:37] <Fall> :x
[20:37] <VeeVee> yeah 6:4 sounds good
[20:38] <RT> ANyways, 6:4.
[20:38] <VeeVee> i think if pika gets a stock lead
[20:38] <Fall> 6:4 is good
[20:38] <VeeVee> it can be trouble for lucario
[20:38] <Fall> if pika gets a stock lead
[20:38] <VeeVee> so dont let that happen
[20:38] <VeeVee> lol
[20:38] <Fall> its hard[/collapse]
This IRC is to be used for serious Lucario talk on match ups, strategies, possible new techniques and other intelligent discussion. The general goal is to share information between all Lucario players, expand on old play styles and character specific strategies as well as develop new ones, and hopefully learn and grow collectively as a community.
~~~~~~~~
Rules
1 - This is NOT a social chat, this is a room made for LEGITIMATE INTELLIGENT Lucario metagame discussion. Use #Lucario for non-serious discussion. That means no excessive off topic nonsense, spamming or random links to things not related to Lucario. If I even see the words "furry", "yiff" or anything of the like, you will be banned indefinitely.
2 - If a new idea is brought forward, be it a new technique or a different approach to a matchup, it is to be THOROUGHLY discussed and tested from multiple angles before either heralded as useful or dismissed as useless. That means serious application in multiple matches as need be until it's full potential is clear. Excessive pessimism towards new ideas will constitute a 3 day ban. Do not fear change.
3 - That last rule being said, do not post anything that is VERY obviously useless in every situation. I don't care if you can add 2 pixels to ES on the full blood moon of August, and I'm sure anyone semi-competent at grabbing the ledge does either. However, do NOT dwell on these things for too long. We're trying to promote new ideas, growth and creativity, which by nature tends to bring out useless techs/ideas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
IRC client download links
http://www.globalgamers.net/?p=webchat (in browser IRC client hosted by GG themselves, simply input your name and the channel's name #LucarioMeta)
http://www.mirc.com/
http://www.xchat.org/
http://www.mibbit.com
Enjoy
(credit to FlameWaveK, I stole the name for the channel lol)
I'm sooo not surprised by the first match up discussion at all lol.
Channel: #LucarioMeta
Re-Opening! Sunday, June 5th
[collapse=Pikachu MU]Session Start: Sun Nov 21 17:51:00 2010
Session Ident: #LucarioMeta
03[17:51] * Now talking in #LucarioMeta
03[19:01] * VeeVee (webirc@pool-71-160-192-123.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:01] <VeeVee> eh yo
[19:01] <VeeVee> hows dat metagame up in hurr
[19:01] <VeeVee> brb
01[19:02] <D_Disciple> sweet
[19:02] <VeeVee> back
01[19:02] <D_Disciple> anymore pika mains?
[19:02] <VeeVee> hmm
[19:02] <VeeVee> well
[19:02] <VeeVee> you could do two things
[19:03] <VeeVee> one, you could attempt to commandeer the pikachat
01[19:03] <D_Disciple> I'm reposting in there right now lol
[19:03] <VeeVee> or two you could go there and try and get them to come here
[19:03] <VeeVee> i think a lot of them dont know much about irc though
03[19:03] * Pitbull (webirc@pool-98-112-162-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:03] <VeeVee> btw by pikachat i mean here
[19:03] <VeeVee> http://xat.com/highvoltageclan
01[19:04] <D_Disciple> yeah I knew what you meant
[19:05] <@Linkshot> Pikas
[19:05] <@Linkshot> I see Pikas
03[19:05] * mr_evil (webirc@cpe-72-177-146-243.satx.res.rr.com) has joined #LucarioMeta
03[19:06] * mr_evil is now known as asdfasdf
03[19:06] * asdfasdf is now known as Pikabunz
01[19:06] <D_Disciple> the pika chat is a bit hostile
03[19:06] * Linkshot changes topic to 'PIKAS. PIKAS EVERYWHERE. DISCUSS LIGHT BALL SUB ENCORE PIKACHU VS SD LUCARIO-- ER, I MEAN THE PIKA:CARIO MATCHUP'
[19:06] <VeeVee> i dunno why theyre being mean
[19:06] <Pikabunz> it's you tag
[19:07] <VeeVee> well
[19:07] <Pikabunz>
[19:07] <@Linkshot> (P.S. Pikachu speed ties with Lucario and OHKOs with Light Ball Tbolt)
[19:07] <VeeVee> oh theres prime
[19:07] <@Linkshot> (Whoever wins the speed tie takes down their opponent)
[19:07] <VeeVee> whats me
[19:08] <Pikabunz> if disciple was there alone
01[19:08] <D_Disciple> k, let's start it up and if anyone else joins. They can jump in
[19:08] <Pikabunz> they would've listened
01[19:08] <D_Disciple> major sad face
[19:08] <@Linkshot> So
[19:08] <VeeVee> oh, youre the only pika in there atm though
[19:09] <@Linkshot> Who has experienced the Pikachu v Lucario matchup at high levels?
[19:09] <VeeVee> that still plays
[19:09] <@Linkshot> I HAVEN'T
[19:09] <Pikabunz> :/
[19:09] <Pikabunz> don't know if i'll be much help
03[19:09] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:09] <Pikabunz> I lose to Trela all the time
01[19:09] <D_Disciple> ugh, I need to grab trela or RT
[19:09] <Pikabunz> trelbell
03[19:09] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has left #LucarioMeta
01[19:10] <D_Disciple> oh sweet Browny's here
[19:10] <VeeVee> i need to play pitbull or flamewave sometime
[19:10] <VeeVee> i used to play pitbull a lot
[19:10] <VeeVee> like, 6 months ago
[19:10] <VeeVee> err, longer
[19:10] <@Linkshot> I'm bugging Flammie right now.
01[19:10] <D_Disciple> recent pika I played was Leaf
01[19:10] <D_Disciple> I didn't get to play K Prime at all
[19:11] <@Linkshot> I have one Pika in my region that I never get to play and isn't a pro level.
[19:11] <Pitbull> We played each other before, VeeVee?
[19:11] <@Linkshot> Flammie is Skyping for work.
[19:11] <VeeVee> pitbull its truth xD
[19:11] <@Linkshot> So no Flammie tonight
[19:11] <@Linkshot> Siiiiiiigh
[19:11] <VeeVee> i think the last time we played was tournament you ownd me
01[19:12] <D_Disciple> k, well Flame wont be here until 8 central time
[19:12] <VeeVee> i was just remembering like, last year when we would play at camamans a lot
[19:13] <Pitbull> Oh I remember now
[19:13] <Pitbull> the name threw me off
01[19:13] <D_Disciple> Anyway, let's begin
[19:13] <VeeVee> lol, yeah
01[19:13] <D_Disciple> Starting off with pikachu mains, what would you guys consider to staple approach in this match up.
01[19:14] <D_Disciple> and what you should be avoiding from Lucario
[19:15] <Pikabunz> jolts to approach
[19:15] <Pikabunz> that's all pika has
[19:15] <VeeVee> I think Prime probably is more reliable for info in general because hes played a lot more, my very minor experience is from over a year ago
[19:15] <@Linkshot> I'd assume Pikachu spams QAC
[19:15] <@Linkshot> Back and forth
[19:15] <VeeVee> QAC i think lucario would beat
[19:15] <@Linkshot> While Luc cries
[19:15] <Pikabunz> I never used qa to attack
[19:15] <@Linkshot> I think it clashes with fTilt and Jab, and fSmash doesn't come out fast enough.
[19:16] <VeeVee> the only other approach I might try is maybe something with a full hop
01[19:17] <D_Disciple> utilt beats it.
[19:17] <VeeVee> well
[19:17] <VeeVee> it takes prediction of sorts
[19:17] <VeeVee> tbh
[19:17] <VeeVee> im not sure if it would work cause
[19:17] <VeeVee> ive never done it vs lucario
[19:17] <VeeVee> just marth and ics
[19:17] <VeeVee> but if you think theyre going to utilt or shield
[19:18] <VeeVee> you can spotdodge and reverse grab
[19:18] <VeeVee> err
[19:18] <VeeVee> air dodge
[19:18] <VeeVee> but idk if that would work against lucario
01[19:18] <D_Disciple> what about fthrowing us?
01[19:19] <D_Disciple> would you guys wait for us to react before approaching, or try to get a usmash right after?
[19:19] <VeeVee> lucarios lame, i dont think we have any follow ups from oujr fthrow
[19:19] <VeeVee> i cant remember though
[19:19] <VeeVee> he's like, one of 3 or 4 characters like that
[19:19] <Pikabunz> i think we can fthrow upsmash at 0-10
01[19:19] <D_Disciple> well we can airwalk (non-momentum dair) after the fthrow.
[19:20] <Pikabunz> pika has nothng with dthrow
[19:20] <Pikabunz> usmash still hits
[19:21] <Pikabunz> also ff fair to follow up doesn't work on lucario
03[19:21] * hichez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:21] <Pikabunz> he can just dair
[19:22] <hichez> hello
[19:22] <hichez> so
[19:22] <Pikabunz> everything good that pika can do won't work on lucario pretty much
[19:22] <VeeVee> make sure you SDI the fair up though
01[19:23] <D_Disciple> hichez we're discussing approaching options
[19:23] <Pikabunz> the only time pika has the advantage is offstage
[19:23] <Pikabunz> you don't have to sdi the fair
[19:23] <Pikabunz> just dair if you get hit by it
[19:23] <Pikabunz> always works
[19:23] <VeeVee> oh, nm
03[19:23] * ElNoNombreHombre (ElNoNombre@c-24-16-158-136.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:24] <VeeVee> sup ENNH
[19:24] <Pikabunz> uair footstool doesn't really work
[19:24] <hichez> that was quick
[19:24] <hichez> does that mean pika is limited to thunder jolt spamming
[19:24] <Pikabunz> he's one of the hardest characters to do it to
[19:24] <Pikabunz> yeah i think so
[19:24] <ElNoNombreHombre> tjolt means you eat an AS if you do it dumbly.
[19:24] <Pikabunz> lucario can easily cancel jolts
[19:24] <VeeVee> jolts can = punishment
[19:25] <VeeVee> pretty laggy and sometimes aura just eats them and keeps going
[19:25] <VeeVee> *AS
[19:25] <hichez> oh
[19:25] <hichez> can't you jump and use it.
[19:25] <VeeVee> even worse
[19:25] <VeeVee> then youre stuck in the air while AS hits you
[19:25] <VeeVee> although you sometimes do want to jump and use it
[19:25] <ElNoNombreHombre> The move's so laggy that even if we hop then tjolt right away, we're nearly on the ground when we get to act again.
[19:26] <VeeVee> just probably not while he has a charged AS
[19:26] <hichez> VeeVee you should only worry about that when lucario is 80+
[19:26] <hichez> How about long distance
[19:27] <Pikabunz> how fast is lucario's fsmash?
[19:27] <Pikabunz> er slo
[19:27] <VeeVee> yeah theyre usually ok then
[19:27] <Pikabunz> slow
[19:27] <hichez> fsmash is on the slow side but it just has broken range
01[19:27] <D_Disciple> brb, checking the frames
01[19:28] <D_Disciple> hitbox comes out on frame 21
[19:28] <hichez> What grab combos does pika have on cario?
01[19:28] <D_Disciple> we can interrupt on frame 36
[19:28] <VeeVee> so 15 frames of lag?
[19:28] <VeeVee> is there an easy way to know how much shield stun it does?
01[19:29] <D_Disciple> yea
[19:29] <VeeVee> *calculate
[19:29] <ElNoNombreHombre> fthrow->usmash I think is pretty much it.
01[19:29] <D_Disciple> hitbox ends on frame 30
[19:29] <VeeVee> oh so more like 6 frames of lag
[19:29] <Pikabunz> i don't think pika can punish fsmash on shield
[19:29] <Pikabunz> you gotta ps
[19:29] <hichez> Pikachu is worse in this matchup than I previously though
01[19:30] <D_Disciple> ps to usmash would work right?
01[19:30] <D_Disciple> can't even do it out of ordinary shield?
[19:30] <Pikabunz> only if you're near him
[19:30] <VeeVee> whats lucarios quickest move
[19:30] <Pikabunz> ps to run usmash probably won't work
01[19:31] <D_Disciple> jab 1
[19:31] <Pikabunz> how fast is that?
01[19:31] <D_Disciple> hitbox on frame 6, ends on frame 9
[19:31] <hichez> up tilt is faster
[19:31] <Pikabunz> wow
01[19:31] <D_Disciple> can interrupt on the 10th frame
[19:31] <Pikabunz> lucario is slow
[19:31] <hichez> it comes out on frame 5
01[19:32] <D_Disciple> wait yeah, utilt is faster
01[19:32] <D_Disciple> hitbox comes out on frame 5, ends on frame 15
01[19:32] <D_Disciple> completes on frame 32
[19:32] <VeeVee> btw to confirm, fsmash only has 6 frames of lag from the end of its hitbox?
[19:32] <hichez> the problem with uptilt is that we have to be facing the opposite direction and the knock back isn't that great
[19:32] <hichez> at early percents
[19:33] <VeeVee> utilt starts in back of you?
01[19:33] <D_Disciple> dtilt ends faster though. comes out on frame 9, ends on frame 15, completes on frame 25
[19:33] <hichez> yeah
[19:33] <VeeVee> ah, interesting
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> oh yeah, shippo wants us to stall until he can get on his computer.
[19:35] <Pikabunz> lucario can shield to fsmash all of pika's smashes
[19:35] <Pikabunz> :o
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> Since he wants to enlighten us with his pika knowledge
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> wait, are you serious?
[19:35] <Pikabunz> yep
[19:35] <Pikabunz> pika's smashes are laggy as hell
[19:35] <VeeVee> yeah
01[19:35] <D_Disciple> I know we can force palm you after your smashes
01[19:36] <D_Disciple> but didn't think fsmash would work
[19:36] <VeeVee> it might not work if theyre charged
[19:36] <Pikabunz> maybe
[19:36] <Pikabunz> with upsmash
[19:36] <VeeVee> dsmash you can pretty much punish with your strongest move
[19:36] <Pikabunz> fsmash is laggier
[19:36] <Pikabunz> than dsmash
[19:36] <VeeVee> yeah but ppl always get outta dsmash
[19:37] <VeeVee> before it ends
[19:37] <VeeVee> if it hits their shield
03[19:37] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:37] <chez> some reason I got kicked
[19:37] <Pikabunz> what's dsmash's speed?
01[19:38] <D_Disciple> ours?
[19:38] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:38] <chez> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211488
[19:38] <chez> there is lucario's frame data
01[19:38] <D_Disciple> yeah, that's where I've been getting my info from
[19:39] <Pikabunz> hmm
[19:40] <Pikabunz> you can fsmash/dsmash our dair and bair i think
02[19:41] * hichez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:41] <chez> why would you be using bair
[19:41] <Pikabunz> it's fun
[19:41] <Pikabunz>
[19:42] <VeeVee> lucarios bair?
[19:42] <Pikabunz> our bair
[19:42] <chez> no pikas
[19:42] <VeeVee> lucarios bair is good in this mu
[19:42] <VeeVee> and prime you mean the landing hitbox?
03[19:42] * Shippo (webirc@pool-71-172-48-157.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
01[19:42] <D_Disciple> okay, let's talk stages
01[19:42] <D_Disciple> oh look who it is
[19:42] <Shippo> FINALLY
[19:42] <Shippo> IM HERE
[19:42] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:43] <chez> yo
01[19:43] <D_Disciple> what stages would you guys ban against Lucario
01[19:43] <D_Disciple> and counter pick against him
[19:43] <VeeVee> I dont know much about stages. pikas only inherrently bad stage is brinstar imo
[19:43] <Pikabunz> our dair has 40 frames of landing lag
[19:43] <Pikabunz> lol
[19:43] <Shippo> Is anyone else comming?
[19:43] <chez> I thought BF was pretty bad for pika
01[19:43] <D_Disciple> Flame will be here soon
[19:44] <VeeVee> battlefield?
[19:44] <chez> BF=battlefield
[19:44] <Pikabunz> i like bf
[19:44] <VeeVee> yeah me too
[19:45] <chez> I thought the platforms limited tjolt and thunder
[19:45] <Shippo> they do a bit
[19:45] <VeeVee> platforms can be really good for jolts
[19:45] <Pikabunz> ^
[19:45] <Shippo> Limits most thunder options
[19:45] <VeeVee> because they circle around, and catch ppl
[19:45] <VeeVee> thunder you generally
[19:45] <VeeVee> dont use on the ground
[19:46] <VeeVee> id say a better way of putting it is it limits T2
[19:46] <Pikabunz> pretty much
[19:46] <VeeVee> i feel like platforms make it easier for pika to start combos too
[19:46] <Pikabunz> though the thunder not hitting you makes you lag more
[19:46] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:46] <Pikabunz> pika is really good at pressuring on platforms
[19:46] <chez> oh never knew that
[19:47] <Pikabunz> when the other person on on platforms
[19:47] <Pikabunz> i mean
[19:47] <Pikabunz> is*
[19:47] <VeeVee> oh, pitbulls played chocos pika recently. you should talk to him too, chocos pika is very good
[19:49] <ElNoNombreHombre> What's the relative range of lucario's dair vs pika's uair?
[19:49] <chez> unless you can time I wouldn't use it
01[19:49] <D_Disciple> good question
[19:50] <ElNoNombreHombre> I'm not sure pika can really give good platform harassment because of it, tbh.
[19:50] <VeeVee> ive tried the dair vs uair thing
[19:50] <Shippo> I love this matchup btw :#
[19:50] <VeeVee> imo
[19:50] <Pikabunz> dair beats uair
[19:50] <VeeVee> its not worth it
[19:50] <chez> yep
[19:50] <Shippo> I have never lost to a Pika :3
[19:50] <VeeVee> uair if youre really really lucky
[19:51] <VeeVee> will hit from an angle
[19:51] <VeeVee> or something
[19:51] <Shippo> Dair is so easy to catch though, if you're able to get close to pika you'll both get hit.
[19:51] <Pikabunz> uair wins if pika uses it from the side
[19:51] <Shippo> thats true
[19:51] <chez> Is pikas main problem getting the kill. What percent should lucario generally be dying at?
[19:51] <Shippo> wait
[19:51] <Shippo> yours ot our uair
[19:52] <VeeVee> pikas uair can hit from a diagnol
[19:52] <Pikabunz> 130-150ish?
[19:52] <VeeVee> also, you should always be scared to die
[19:52] <VeeVee> starting at like
[19:52] <chez> v
[19:52] <VeeVee> 80
[19:52] <VeeVee> but
[19:52] <VeeVee> you shouldnt be dying early
[19:52] <Pikabunz> we can get a lucky thunder
[19:52] <Pikabunz>
[19:52] <Pikabunz> or fsmash
[19:52] <VeeVee> pikas fsmash is also really strong
[19:52] <Pikabunz> fsmash is pretty strong
03[19:52] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has left #LucarioMeta
03[19:52] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:52] <VeeVee> and dsmash if you fall into the last hit
[19:52] <VeeVee> can sometimes kill
[19:53] <VeeVee> so make sure you always get out
[19:53] <Shippo> Thunder
[19:53] <VeeVee> or dont get hit by the last hit
[19:53] <Shippo> should NEVER kill us
[19:53] <Shippo> ever
[19:53] <VeeVee> btw
[19:53] <VeeVee> i think i saw somewhere someone said you should use counter for thunder
[19:53] <Shippo> yeah
[19:53] <Shippo> me
[19:53] <Shippo> :3
03[19:53] * hichez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:53] <VeeVee> im pretty sure air dodge is always the best option though >.>
[19:53] <VeeVee> idk ask prime
[19:53] <Shippo> depends
[19:54] <Shippo> you can get caught with your DI then fall into it
[19:54] <Shippo> you can press down b in reaction to
[19:54] <Shippo> "PIKA"
[19:54] <VeeVee> the only reason i suggest air dodge
[19:54] <VeeVee> is because thats the quickest thing you can do
[19:54] <VeeVee> out of hitstun
[19:54] <VeeVee> so at higher percents
[19:54] <VeeVee> it might come out in time
[19:54] <Pikabunz> air dodge is the fastest option
[19:54] <VeeVee> where a b move would not
[19:54] <Pikabunz> for avoiding thunder
01[19:55] <D_Disciple> best thing to avoid thunder, is to di away from pika when pops Lucario up
[19:55] <hichez> What your opponet realizes that you keep air dodging and just punishes it.
[19:55] <Pikabunz> airdodge always comes out on frame 14 after being hit
[19:55] <Pikabunz> or is it 12
[19:55] <Pikabunz> hmm
[19:55] <Pikabunz> but more damage doesn't delay your air dodge
[19:55] <Pikabunz> it's always the same frame
[19:55] <VeeVee> yeah, the only certain way youll avoid thunder
[19:55] <VeeVee> is
[19:56] <VeeVee> to DI the hit that knocks you up
03[19:56] * Red_Ryu (red_ryu@129.89.188.211) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:56] <VeeVee> if you go straight up (usually utilt) youre in a very unsafe postiion
03[19:56] * Fall (Nathan1337@76-216-141-134.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[19:56] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:56] <Fall> it didn't end yet right
[19:56] <Fall> I just got out of my meeting
[19:56] <Shippo> no
[19:56] <Fall> :x
[19:56] <Red_Ryu> looks like I got back in time, even if I am late :<
[19:56] <hichez> I have seen a couple of pikas guess and use a B reversed thunder and make contact.
[19:56] <Fall> No Esam?
[19:56] <Shippo> yeah
[19:57] <Pikabunz> best option is to airdodge and di to one side
[19:57] <Fall> brb
[19:57] <Red_Ryu> dodging thunder right?
[19:57] <Pikabunz> yeah
[19:57] <Shippo> Double team is also a good option against stray bolts
[19:57] <Shippo> circling a platform above you
[19:57] <Red_Ryu> yeah that is the correct method
[19:57] <Fall> Contacting Loli to contact to nick
[19:57] <Fall> to contact esam
01[19:57] <D_Disciple> I couldn't get a hold of esam
[19:57] <VeeVee> if pika is jumping at you with a jolt double team can be good
01[19:57] <D_Disciple> wish we can get kprime in here too
[19:57] <Shippo> you can't react to that
02[19:57] * chez (webirc@adsl-92-186-27.asm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:58] <Pikabunz> >>
[19:58] <Pikabunz> <<
[19:58] <Red_Ryu> Lucario Double teaming Thunder is nice sometimes
[19:58] <VeeVee> Xd
[19:58] <VeeVee> kprime is here
[19:58] <VeeVee> *xD
[19:58] <Shippo> cause i've played many pikeas
[19:58] <Shippo> and they love mixing up aerial approaces
[19:58] <Pikabunz> yeah i'm prime
[19:58] <Shippo> and luc doesn't have to approach pikachu
01[19:58] <D_Disciple> ooohhh
01[19:58] <D_Disciple> >.>
[19:58] <VeeVee> most pikachus are on a bit later
[19:58] <Pikabunz> hehe
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> k, what would you guys ban against Lucario, I don't think you guys answered that
[19:59] <hichez> In my expience pikachu's just bait and use run away tactics.
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> I heard brinstar, just in general
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> Technically if you PS everything you can make it so your not forced to approach
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> but still
[19:59] <VeeVee> what are lucarios best stages?
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> if you mess up your getting camped
[19:59] <VeeVee> i cant think of any stage that helps lucario particularly in the MU
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> Frigate and YI are usually picks
[19:59] <Pikabunz> lucarios like yi right?
[19:59] <Red_Ryu> yes
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> yeah
[19:59] <hichez> YI and FD are lucarios best neutrals
[19:59] <Pikabunz> frigate?
01[19:59] <D_Disciple> I like FD a lot
[20:00] <Fall> I like
[20:00] <Fall> CPing
[20:00] <Fall> Castle Siege
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> Prigate is a stage Luc takes with some characters
[20:00] <Fall> in this one
01[20:00] <D_Disciple> we know flame!
[20:00] <Fall> :D
01[20:00] <D_Disciple> we know!
01[20:00] <D_Disciple> lol
[20:00] <Fall> But
[20:00] <Fall> it works
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> in this MU probably not
[20:00] <Fall> **** you guys
[20:00] <Fall> We **** pikachu
[20:00] <Fall> on 2nd
[20:00] <Fall> and 3rd transformations
[20:00] <VeeVee> oh, who is flame
[20:00] <VeeVee> flame we need to play
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> Brinstar is nice in this MU
[20:00] <Fall> Thats me
[20:00] <Red_Ryu> for Luc
[20:00] <Shippo> I LOVE playing on frigate
[20:01] <Fall> Fall = FlameWaveK
[20:01] <Shippo> it makes pikachu recovering on the first half a LOT harder
[20:01] <VeeVee> the one thing id say about brinstar in this MU is to be careful
[20:01] <VeeVee> bc
[20:01] <Fall> Who is VeeVee
[20:01] <Fall> :x
[20:01] <VeeVee> you could die earlier then expected
[20:01] <VeeVee> Im veevee
[20:01] <Fall> I don't think I've heard of you
[20:01] <hichez> how long is this going to last
[20:01] <Fall> or know why we need to play
[20:01] <Red_Ryu> you could but Luc still gains more from the stage itself than vice versa
[20:01] <Fall> but
[20:01] <Fall> ok
[20:01] <Fall> **** CPing brinstar
[20:01] <Fall> everyone goes metaknight
[20:01] <VeeVee> its truth offline
[20:02] <Red_Ryu> meh
[20:02] <Fall> oh
[20:02] <Fall> SUP TRUTH
[20:02] <Shippo> I CP Frigate
[20:02] <Red_Ryu> I'd rather fight MK there than on Cruise
[20:02] <Fall> I HEARD MONTEBELLOS GOT CANCELED
[20:02] <Shippo> I actually CP'd to rainbow cruise
[20:02] <Shippo> and timed someone out
[20:02] <Shippo> :3
[20:02] <Fall> Why no calling me up and coming to my smashfest
[20:02] <Fall> D:
[20:02] <Pitbull> Spreading rumors never amounts to anything good
[20:02] <Fall> oh
[20:02] <Fall> I heard
[20:02] <Fall> from
[20:02] <Fall> Stridez
[20:02] <Fall> so
[20:02] <VeeVee> wait what
[20:02] <Fall> idk how true it is
[20:02] <VeeVee> montebello canceled yuesterday?
01[20:03] <D_Disciple> guys
01[20:03] <D_Disciple> stay on track
[20:03] <VeeVee> lol flame we need to talk somewhere else i guess
[20:03] <Shippo> rumors?
[20:03] <Fall> AIM and skype = FlameWaveK
[20:03] <Fall> Anyways
[20:03] <Fall> I'm just
[20:03] <Fall> Going to Say my take on this MU
[20:04] <Red_Ryu> If they can get kills earlier Pika can do better in this match-up
[20:04] <Fall> Pikachu has a hard time coming in our zoning without getting *****, but I've seen pikachus do good as long as they're not "OMG THIS IS SO GAY I HATE IT"
[20:04] <Fall> they can luck out with early thunder kills too
[20:04] <Fall> You can argue that this is a free ride
[20:04] <Red_Ryu> Like when people airdodge them wrong
[20:04] <Fall> But
[20:04] <Fall> DON'T take pikachu lightly
[20:04] <Fall> He has tons of mix-ups
[20:04] <Red_Ryu> I don't think Luc has any MU that is a free ride outside of Ganon
[20:05] <Fall> and his approach/grab game is pretty dumb
[20:05] <Fall> I haven't played a pikachu
[20:05] <Fall> that straight out abused my recovery though
[20:05] <Fall> yet
[20:05] <Shippo> well
[20:05] <Fall> lolz
[20:05] <Shippo> pikachu's up b mixup mindgames
[20:05] <Shippo> dont work on cario
[20:05] <Red_Ryu> When I played DLA he struggled to kill me
[20:05] <Shippo> as we can SH nair
[20:05] <Shippo> and cover the mixup
[20:05] <Red_Ryu> wtith Pikachu
01[20:05] <D_Disciple> yeah that was the first thing we said shippo
[20:06] <Fall> I don't
[20:06] <Fall> Refer
[20:06] <Fall> to Pikachu using the UpB
[20:06] <Fall> as an approach
[20:06] <Fall> I think its more used to clear space
[20:06] <Shippo> mix up
[20:06] <Shippo> MIX UP
[20:06] <Fall> w.e.
03[20:06] * LoliLovesNick (LoliLovesR@adsl-10-246-81.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[20:06] <Fall> I actually have an easy time reacting to UpB mix-ups
[20:06] <Fall> Hi loli!
[20:06] <Fall> <3
[20:06] <LoliLovesNick> lol i was seeing wtf this was that u wanted esam for
01[20:07] <D_Disciple> k, pikachu mains
[20:07] <LoliLovesNick> so i can actually TELL him
[20:07] <Fall> Oh
[20:07] <VeeVee> lol
[20:07] <Fall> This is a
[20:07] <hichez> I don't see that many up B mix ups being that sucessful
[20:07] <Fall> discussion chat
01[20:07] <D_Disciple> what would be your punishing options against us
[20:07] <Fall> about the lucario vs pikachu match-up
[20:07] <VeeVee> well
[20:07] <Fall> pretty much
[20:07] <VeeVee> pikachus upb might be safe if he doesnt land near you as a mixup
[20:07] <Fall> Pikachu's UpB makes him fat
[20:07] <VeeVee> but as far as actually hitting you with an nair etc
[20:07] <Red_Ryu> if he lands away from us it's safe
[20:07] <VeeVee> its unsafe
03[20:07] * LoliLovesNick (LoliLovesR@adsl-10-246-81.mia.bellsouth.net) has left #LucarioMeta
[20:07] <VeeVee> the most dangerous parts of up b
[20:08] <Fall> I don't like pikachu's UpB
[20:08] <VeeVee> are when hes starting
[20:08] <Fall> when I'm waking up though
[20:08] <Fall>
[20:08] <VeeVee> stick between the movements
[20:08] <VeeVee> or ending
[20:08] <Red_Ryu> Ohn yeah don't get footstooled by Pikachu
[20:08] <VeeVee> when hes actually moving its not that bad
[20:08] <Red_Ryu> QACL
[20:08] <Red_Ryu> it's pretty dumb lol
[20:09] <Shippo> also stutterstep fsmashing with lucario
[20:09] <Shippo> it pretty dumb
[20:09] <Red_Ryu> ...uhhh sort of
[20:09] <Fall> i don't like doing it vs pikachu
[20:09] <hichez> shippo when you say dumb is it a good or bad thing
[20:10] <Fall> I use ftilt more
02[20:10] * Pikabunz (webirc@cpe-72-177-146-243.satx.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[20:10] <Red_Ryu> If they are landing/edge I use it
[20:10] <Fall> I've actually been
[20:10] <Fall> Upsmashed before the fsmash hitbox came out
[20:10] <Fall> ala fox style
[20:10] <Fall> <_<
[20:10] <Red_Ryu> The move is fine on block, but the start-up is asking to be punished if Pikachu is up close
[20:11] <Fall> but um
[20:11] <Fall> I think
[20:11] <Fall> our close up game
[20:11] <Fall> IE
[20:11] <Fall> jab range
[20:11] <Fall> is a little better
[20:11] <Fall> even if pikachus jab is faster
[20:12] <Fall> I don't think its safe on block
[20:12] <Red_Ryu> jab and Ftilt are fine upclose
[20:12] <Fall> We're most in trouble when he's out of jab/grab range
[20:12] <Fall> and he can dtilt us
[20:12] <Fall> pikachu's horse kick is pretty safe on us too I think
[20:12] <Red_Ryu> His Dtilt outranges our ftilt?
[20:12] <Fall> faster
[20:12] <Red_Ryu> oh
[20:13] <Fall> trips a fair margin of the time too
[20:13] <Fall> So
[20:13] <Fall> Lucs
[20:13] <Fall> How do we go about
[20:14] <Fall> Edgeguarding Pikachu
[20:14] <Fall> in terms of
[20:14] <Fall> doing damage to him
[20:14] <Fall> not gimping him
[20:14] <Fall> [which is impossible]
[20:14] <Shippo> Oh
[20:14] <Shippo> Stutter Step Fsmash the ledge
[20:14] <Shippo> thats the best thing you can do
[20:14] <Shippo> and hold a fully charged aurasphere
[20:14] <Shippo> fair him if he gets off the ledge
[20:15] <Shippo> then fair him again
[20:15] <Shippo> jump back, you should ALWAYS make it
[20:15] <Shippo> then proceed to keep edgeguarding him
[20:15] <hichez> what happens if he decided to upp off the ledge
[20:15] <hichez> *up B
[20:16] <Fall> invincible nair work Vs his SideB UpB?
[20:16] <ElNoNombreHombre> invincible nair?
[20:17] <Fall> grab the ledge
01[20:17] <D_Disciple> nairing from the ledge
[20:17] <Fall> back off
[20:17] <Fall> nair with the invincibility frames
01[20:17] <D_Disciple> the invincibility frames
[20:17] <Fall> a metaknight/pikachu/peach/ any character with a good nair staple
[20:18] <Fall> I gotta say though
[20:18] <Fall> I've
[20:18] <Fall> never played
[20:18] <Fall> Anther/ESAM tier pikachus
[20:18] <Fall> ><
[20:19] <hichez> is anther still active?
[20:19] <Shippo> I played pikapika
01[20:19] <D_Disciple> only in MI i hear
[20:19] <Shippo> RJ beat Esam in a MM
[20:19] <hichez> oh
[20:19] <Red_Ryu> Yeah I haven't played a top level pika
[20:19] <Red_Ryu> beat I've played was DLA's Pika that he secondaries
[20:19] <Fall> Anther still plays hisoutensoku
[20:20] <Fall> LOL
[20:20] <Fall> idk what else to say
[20:20] <Fall> someone suggest a topic
01[20:20] <D_Disciple> k, I wanted to do this with the wolf discussion but it failed miserably
[20:20] <Pitbull> Stages to not fight Pika on
[20:20] <hichez> the only pika main I played would be scatz he is decent
03[20:20] * RT (rt@c-76-30-94-15.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
01[20:20] <D_Disciple> wanted to analyze a match
[20:20] <Fall> Oh
[20:20] <Fall> which match?
01[20:20] <D_Disciple> and what better one than Lee Martin vs Esam
[20:21] <Fall> Shippo vs Esam
[20:21] <Fall> clearly
[20:21] <Fall> buht
[20:21] <Fall> link?
01[20:21] <D_Disciple> hold up
01[20:21] <D_Disciple> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqIZW5wHgEs
[20:21] <Red_Ryu> Lee wasn't doing the match well :/
[20:21] <Shippo> lee also on the hardest stage for the matchup
[20:21] <Shippo> for lucario
[20:22] <Fall> PS1 isn't hard at all
[20:22] <Red_Ryu> and sick playing that btw
[20:22] <Fall> the ****
[20:22] <Red_Ryu> he was throwing up that weekend
[20:22] <VeeVee> hardest nejutral but im sure pika could pick a gayer stage
01[20:22] <D_Disciple> I want to put up the crew match at MLG Dallas too
[20:22] <RT> If I recall, both Lee and Esam said Lee wasn't playing the matchup right.
01[20:22] <D_Disciple> since they are both at 3 stocks
[20:22] <Fall> its slightly disadvanteus
[20:22] <Fall> if anything
[20:22] <Fall> fighting pikachu on Rainbow is far more annoying
[20:22] <Fall> <_<
[20:23] <Fall> um
[20:23] <Fall> Lee going in
[20:23] <Fall> o
[20:23] <hichez> who has the adv. no rainbow
[20:23] <VeeVee> biggest thing is lee got edgeguarded hard
[20:23] <Fall> even with a lead
[20:23] <VeeVee> he kept airdodging onto the stage
[20:23] <Fall> LEE WHY ARE YOU APPROACHING WITH A STOCK LEAD ON A PS1 TRANSFORMATION
[20:23] <Fall> WTF
[20:23] <Fall> ,_,
[20:23] <Red_Ryu> bad idea when he was doing it into ESAM
[20:24] <Fall> well it worked out for him I guess
[20:24] <Red_Ryu> airdodged int Fsmash teice that match I beleive
[20:24] <hichez> how does lee get away with rolling behin his opponets?
[20:24] <Fall> 1st stock was lost stupidly
[20:24] <VeeVee> air dodge into fsmash and thunder
[20:24] <Fall> Because you have to mix-up it up
[20:24] <Fall> Well enough
[20:24] <Fall> that they don't expect it
[20:24] <Fall> chez
[20:25] <Fall> This Nick commentary
[20:25] <Fall> lolz
[20:25] <RT> The better your opponent is, the more likely they'll get away with dumb stuff.
[20:25] <Fall> WHY
[20:25] <RT> like rolling
[20:25] <Fall> WHY ARE YOU APPROACHING
[20:25] <Fall> meh
[20:25] <VeeVee> lees a stock behind
[20:25] <Fall> no
[20:25] <Fall> 2:30
03[20:25] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[20:25] <Fall> in
[20:25] <VeeVee> oh
[20:25] <Fall> even stocks
[20:25] <Fall> 60 to 50
[20:26] <Fall> on the tree
[20:26] <Fall> WHAT
[20:26] <Fall> HES TAUNTING
[20:26] <Fall> DASH IN
[20:26] <Fall> AND FSMASH FROM THE TREE
[20:26] <Fall> go****
[20:26] <Shippo> This makes me sad
[20:26] <Shippo> :<
[20:26] <Shippo> I can't watch these
[20:26] <Fall> Lee gets thunder'd
[20:26] <Shippo> I swear to god
[20:26] <VeeVee> he airdodge onto the stage 3 times
[20:26] <Fall> this is almost as bad as Lee Vs X
[20:26] <VeeVee> and died the same way all three time
[20:26] <Fall> almost
[20:26] <VeeVee> lol
[20:26] <Shippo> thats a HUGE mistake
[20:26] <Shippo> lee vs x
[20:26] <Shippo> made me sad
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> now then, on a stage that I think favors Lucario a lot.
[20:27] <hichez> Fmash is a great move when your opponent is landing. It seems like a move that shouldn't work.
[20:27] <Browny> DONT WATCH THOSE LEE VS ESAM WVIDS
[20:27] <VeeVee> does sonic beat lucario?
[20:27] <Browny> THEYRE SO WRONG/BAD
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> be careful of the quality
[20:27] <Fall> no lol
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> and no he doesn't
[20:27] <Browny> YOU GET WORSE AT THE GAME BY WATCHING THEM
01[20:27] <D_Disciple> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFn9wCeOd8
[20:27] <Browny> also, sifnt come to #luc Red_Ryu
03[20:27] * Browny (lol@ppp118-210-19-109.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has left #LucarioMeta
[20:27] <Fall> Browny stop trolling
[20:27] <Fall> go****
[20:27] <VeeVee> i was surprised how close this match was
[20:27] <Fall> wheres game 2
[20:27] <Fall> oh
[20:27] <Fall> metaknight
[20:28] <Fall> nvm
01[20:28] <D_Disciple> he goes metaknight lol
[20:28] <Fall> Lee doesn't know how to play the MU
[20:28] <Fall> get done son
[20:28] <RT> both Lee and Esam agreed that Lee played the matchup wrong.
[20:28] <VeeVee> esam seems to punish him a lot when he comes onstage
01[20:28] <D_Disciple> yeah he did a better performance in the crew matcha gainst him.
[20:28] <VeeVee> is lucario have issues gettong back onstage?
[20:29] <VeeVee> *getting
[20:29] <hichez> Lee kept falling for the bait
[20:29] <Fall> Lucario has slight issues getting back
[20:29] <Fall> I guess
[20:29] <Fall> but
01[20:29] <D_Disciple> not really, Lee just kept airdodging into him
[20:29] <Fall> Lee just Airdodgesd
01[20:29] <D_Disciple> esam then would fsmash
[20:29] <Fall> WAY TOO MUCH
[20:29] <Fall> like
[20:29] <Fall> son
[20:29] <Fall> just grab the ledge
[20:29] <Fall> <_<
[20:30] <RT> There are some Trela vs Kprime vids too.
[20:30] <Fall> get them
[20:30] <VeeVee> first kill esam naird him offstage
[20:30] <hichez> Patg told me that if you have use upB as last resort when you need to get away ussally your opponet will punish with a grab
[20:30] <Fall> Trela knows how to play this MU
[20:30] <Fall> hopefully
[20:30] <RT> Youtube it.
01[20:30] <D_Disciple> yeah, I didn't want to throw them up when he was stillin here though
01[20:30] <D_Disciple> but he left
[20:30] <Fall> Trela was here?
[20:30] <Fall> go**** it
[20:30] <Fall> I need to ask him how to do UpB ledge cancels
[20:31] <Fall> THE FLASHIEST LUCARIO WOULD KNOW
[20:31] <RT> LOL
[20:31] <Fall> THAT TRELA FLASH
[20:31] <Red_Ryu> oh Trela
[20:31] <Fall> HYPE HYPE HYPE
[20:31] <hichez> just practice
01[20:31] <D_Disciple> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnlViUgs0Kc last one guys
01[20:31] <D_Disciple> then we can wrap it up
01[20:31] <D_Disciple> cause my comp keeps crashing whenever I try to get a youtube vid
[20:31] <hichez> It really not that reliable as it hard to hit the lip of the stage with lucarios up
[20:31] <Fall> well
[20:32] <Fall> **** you
[20:32] <Fall> imma
[20:32] <Fall> make it reliable
[20:32] <Fall> ;o
[20:32] <hichez> lol
[20:32] <Fall> trela doing good
[20:32] <Fall> passive aggressive tyle
[20:32] <Fall> LOL FAIR KIL
[20:32] <Red_Ryu> WTF
[20:32] <Shippo> I don't have any vids of me playing a lucario :<
[20:32] <Shippo> Yeah
[20:32] <Shippo> Nair works wonders on pikachu
[20:32] <Red_Ryu> Trela is getting my seal of flashyness
[20:32] <Fall> get done son
[20:32] <Red_Ryu> Fair kill is lol
[20:33] <Fall> Kprime getting the business here
[20:33] <Shippo> also thanks to pikachu teaching me how to smash DI his downsmash
[20:33] <Shippo> I almost beat ChiboSempai
01[20:33] <D_Disciple> DI up
[20:33] <Fall> Shippo you shoulda CP'D SV
[20:33] <Fall> :V
[20:33] <hichez> wow kprime got killed by a fair that is just bad.
[20:33] <Fall> UPB CAN CEL
[20:33] <Fall> TRELA FLASH
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> he died from it, cause he did a thunder jolt in front of trela
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> shush Flame
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> even I can do that
[20:34] <Fall> teach me
[20:34] <Fall> :C
[20:34] <Fall> watching matc h2
[20:34] <Fall> Trela starts with a nice string
[20:34] <Fall> playing passive aggressive
[20:34] <Fall> eh
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> k, I've taken up your guys time long enough. Let's wrap this up
[20:34] <Fall> how?
01[20:34] <D_Disciple> overall match up?
[20:34] <Red_Ryu> Grabing people when they run up and shield is something a lot of people should do more
[20:34] <Fall> Lucario's Favor
[20:35] <Shippo> 65:35 Lucario
[20:35] <Shippo> IMO
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> 55:45 or 6:4 Lucario imo
[20:35] <Fall> Disadvantage either slight or Heavy depending on the pikachu's mindst
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> Shippo, 65:35?!
[20:35] <Fall> Shippo thinks its a free ride
[20:35] <Shippo> pikachu doesn't have tools to do much of anything to lucario
[20:35] <Fall> I don't agree
[20:35] <hichez> I say 6:4 lucario
[20:35] <Fall> I think
[20:35] <Fall> pikachu can
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> he has tools to face us
[20:35] <Fall> threaten us
[20:35] <Shippo> I think ddd v lucario is 35:65 Lucario :o
[20:35] <Fall> if he's holding a light ball
[20:35] <Fall> :D
[20:35] <Red_Ryu> Funny I don't
[20:35] <hichez> lucario can get baited too easily and tjolt camping is still half way legit
[20:35] <Fall> Agility + Light Ball
01[20:35] <D_Disciple> veevee you agree?
[20:36] <Fall> Get volt tackled son
[20:36] <Fall> TRUTH GET YOUR BUTT IN HERE
[20:36] <hichez> I say that you give pika a thunderstone
[20:36] <RT> *plays Doryuuzu*
[20:36] <Shippo> >.>
[20:36] <Red_Ryu> At the very least I don't think this is even
[20:36] <RT> You all lose.
[20:36] <RT> Trollololololololol
[20:36] <VeeVee> agree with which one
[20:36] <Fall> nah son
[20:36] <Shippo> but seriously it's heavily in Lucario's favor
01[20:36] <D_Disciple> overall match up
[20:36] <VeeVee> sorry
01[20:36] <D_Disciple> what do you think
[20:36] <VeeVee> catching up
[20:36] <VeeVee> which one though
[20:36] <VeeVee> oh
[20:36] <Shippo> we force lucario to approach, which he isn't very good at.
[20:36] <VeeVee> 6:4 sounds good
[20:36] <Fall> I play that Erefunn RT
[20:37] <Shippo> I guess I can settle on 6:4 :l,
[20:37] <Fall> Get untauntable sleep powder'd
[20:37] <VeeVee> sorry im catching up
[20:37] <VeeVee> on the convo
[20:37] <Fall> MISCHEVIOUS HEART
01[20:37] <D_Disciple> it's cool truth
[20:37] <Shippo> can we stick to the matchup though :/
[20:37] <RT> Fine fine, switch in with my own Erefunn.
[20:37] <VeeVee> alright
[20:37] <Fall> D said we were wrapping up though
[20:37] <Fall> :x
[20:37] <VeeVee> yeah 6:4 sounds good
[20:38] <RT> ANyways, 6:4.
[20:38] <VeeVee> i think if pika gets a stock lead
[20:38] <Fall> 6:4 is good
[20:38] <VeeVee> it can be trouble for lucario
[20:38] <Fall> if pika gets a stock lead
[20:38] <VeeVee> so dont let that happen
[20:38] <VeeVee> lol
[20:38] <Fall> its hard[/collapse]
Ice Climbers:
Red Ryu said:[collapse= Ice Climbers][21:46] *** Topic is Welcome to #LucarioMeta, a room dedicated to serious Lucario metagame discussion. This week's meeting is concerning the ICs matchup, to discussed at 8 PM EST on Sunday. Don't miss it!
[21:46] *** Channel mode is +tnz
[21:54] <RedRyu>
[21:56] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ?
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> D is on the way
[21:58] <RedRyu> sorry someone else typed on my keyboard
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> problems with mIRC
[21:58] <RedRyu> :?
[21:58] *** D_Disciple has joined #LucarioMeta
[21:58] <RedRyu> :/
[21:58] <D_Disciple> there
[21:58] <RedRyu> she does that somethimes
[21:58] <RedRyu> sometimes*
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Who
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> :3c
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Red has a girl?
[21:58] <RedRyu> Roomates girlfriends
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh
[21:58] <RedRyu> I don't
[21:58] <RedRyu> I'm not cool enough
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> how boring xc
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Anyways
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> uh
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> nothing was discussed yet
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> GO
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Someone try to get other people in here
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I'll tolerate even kita for the time being
[21:59] <RedRyu> I can get Kita
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I would prefer if you get IC people though
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe RJ
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe whats his name
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> RT
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe trela and smoom
[22:00] <RedRyu> dang it, he might be away from his comp
[22:00] <D_Disciple> we need some ICs
[22:01] <RedRyu> Alex said he posted but
[22:01] <RedRyu> no one showed up yet
[22:02] <RedRyu> seems just like when the Link's tried doing it with them as well, one IC showed up with a bunch of Link mains
[22:02] <RedRyu> I'll try and find some Ics
[22:03] <RedRyu> on their boards
[22:07] *** Browny has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:07] <Browny> lol i forgot this place exists
[22:07] <RedRyu> :/
[22:13] *** Browny has left #LucarioMeta
[22:14] <RedRyu> no luck so far
[22:15] *** RT has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:16] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> so how long until we call it mission fai-
[22:16] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh hey RT
[22:16] <RT> Gentlemen.
[22:17] *** RT has quit (Quit: Bye!)
[22:17] *** RT has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:17] <RT> I can easily sum up the matchup in a few words.
[22:17] <RT> Don't get grabbed.
[22:17] <RT> lol
[22:18] <RT> Also, IC mains are trying toying with a new idea that involves only grabbing and not damaging Lucario at all with stray attacks.
[22:18] <RT> So that he never gets Aura.
[22:18] <RedRyu> wut
[22:18] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> so no ice blocks?
[22:18] <RT> No.
[22:18] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> sweet
[22:18] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh
[22:18] <RT> Just wait for the mistake and grab.
[22:19] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> normally I just stand there and let me ice block me to 100%
[22:19] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if I lose the stock lead early on
[22:19] <RT> Yeah, that's the point.
[22:19] <RedRyu> I just platform camp
[22:19] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> its kinda no brainer
[22:20] <RT> *mistake
[22:20] <RT> Mmm.
[22:20] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> what you do
[22:20] <RT> Other than that.
[22:20] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> when you have the lead in the MU
[22:20] <RT> Lead?
[22:20] <RT> I just camp.
[22:20] <RT> LOL
[22:20] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Same here
[22:20] <RedRyu> I jump on platforms
[22:20] <RT> Never approach ICs unless you have to.
[22:20] <RedRyu> like if I'm on BF
[22:20] <RT> Even then, approach catiously.
[22:20] <RedRyu> platforms is where it's at
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I stand on platforms and bait upairs
[22:21] <RedRyu> Lee spams dair a lot
[22:21] <RedRyu> against IC
[22:21] <RT> Yes, platform camp when possible.
[22:21] *** Lux has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:21] <RT> Avoid FD.
[22:21] <RedRyu> at least thats what it looked like against Lain
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ofc
[22:21] <Lux> hi
[22:21] <Lux> I am an ice climber main
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ICs will always take us to like
[22:21] <Lux> and I will be fielding questions
[22:21] <Lux> go
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> SV and BF
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> right
[22:22] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> "What do you hate in this MU"
[22:22] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> go
[22:22] <Lux> Well, I hate the many misconceptions out there on the match up itself.
[22:23] *** philnyeynlihp has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:23] <philnyeynlihp> how'd it go?
[22:23] <Lux> To be fair, I haven't been playing Lee Martin, but every Lucario main I've played I've beaten :\
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> pfft.
[22:23] <Lux> So I don't understand where the supposed Lucario "advantage" comes from
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> region?
[22:23] <philnyeynlihp> Which Luc mains have you beaten?
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it comes from you guys messing up the CG
[22:23] <RT> It only comes when you guys mess up the grabs and we get Aura.
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and then we're at like broken mode
[22:23] <RT> lol
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and we kill you in 2 or 3 hits
[22:23] <Lux> oh ok
[22:23] <RedRyu> kinda
[22:24] <RT> And then Nana is like, "SWEET, A PIT. I'M GOING IN!!!11!!"
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> except we're assuming they don't mess up
[22:24] <RedRyu> it's that and Lucario ability to separate them
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> rofl
[22:24] <D_Disciple> ****
[22:24] <Lux> If you're operating on the conception that Lucario is hard to CG, then it's bad
[22:24] <D_Disciple> I forgot I was in here -_-'
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> that's a bad mentality
[22:24] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Not really
[22:24] <Lux> but you guys need to operate the match up on A. What separates and B. What gimps nana
[22:24] <RT> No, Lucario isn't hard, lol.
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> bthrow -> fthrow
[22:24] <D_Disciple> my mentality in the IC match up now is, don't approach
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> A. dair B. Fair/dair
[22:24] <RedRyu> Lucario's dair seems to do it, but it's not safe on block
[22:24] <RT> ^this.
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Never approach
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Ever
[22:25] <Lux> I was going to say that
[22:25] <RT> ^This
[22:25] <RedRyu> unless you don't have the lead
[22:25] <D_Disciple> I learned that the hard way against Lain yesterday
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> GAY THE GAYEST GAY YOU EVER GAYED
[22:25] <RT> And call all pause DQs, LOL.
[22:25] <philnyeynlihp> rofl
[22:25] <D_Disciple> and I need to break my habit of dairing after fair!
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I think
[22:25] <RT> I actually had a chance to in a local tourney but didn't.
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if we're really high %
[22:25] <philnyeynlihp> So Lux what lucs have you played?
[22:25] <RT> I lost because of that, LOL.
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> we can shoot charged spheres
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> over ice blocks
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and hit ICs
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I've done it once
[22:25] <Lux> the only out of region that I've been to was Supercon
[22:26] <Lux> I don't remember who I beat
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I heard supercon was a flop
[22:26] <Lux> there were 3 luca mains there though
[22:26] <Lux> yeah, like only 45 people
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Steam
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Random Lucario 2
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Random Lucario 3
[22:26] <philnyeynlihp> Maybe Fonz?
[22:26] <philnyeynlihp> idk
[22:26] <RT> Only ICs I get to play is Smoom, and he's decent with the grab deaths.
[22:26] <Lux> lol smoooooom
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> well duh
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> his brother is trela
[22:26] <RT> Smooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom.
[22:26] <RT> Haha.
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> He's not allowed to lose to lucarios
[22:27] <Lux> TBH, the only real "safe" move you guys have is Fair imo
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> walking is safe.
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but yeah
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> wait
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> retreating bair is good
[22:27] <D_Disciple> oh yeah guys
[22:27] <Lux> in my experience, if you do any grounded moves, it should be a grab
[22:27] <RedRyu> Dair is kinda safe if Lucario saves his second jump and spaces it right
[22:27] <D_Disciple> I SDI'd the usmash after a cg
[22:27] <RT> I always mass suicide against Smoom.
[22:27] <D_Disciple> and tech the stage
[22:27] <RT> At two recent locals, I SD'd a combined total of four times.
[22:27] <RT> It was awesome.
[22:27] <Lux> it doesn't hit box close enough to the ground for it to really matter
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Yeah you can do that D
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but
[22:27] <D_Disciple> ask Hylian and Future and some others that saw it
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they can just regrab you after
[22:28] <Lux> if they do that, we can just DSG and grab
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> :<
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if you techroll though...
[22:28] <D_Disciple> nah, I tech rolled it
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they have to read it
[22:28] <D_Disciple> like I was hella far from him though
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I personally just mash out of charge upsmash
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and roll after.
[22:28] <philnyeynlihp> good thing luc fthrow is fast
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh yeah
[22:28] <philnyeynlihp> just like ROB's fthrow/bthrow
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if you EVER grabs ICs
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> pummel 1st
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and then throw
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if they're near each other
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> the Pummel will stun them for a bit and let you throw them safely most of the time.
[22:29] <D_Disciple> you know what upsetted me
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Its also nice to note that fthrow and uthrow have hitboxes while throwing
[22:29] <philnyeynlihp> I haven't played the MU much
[22:29] <Lux> DSG says no to that :\
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> while dthrow and bthrow don't
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> DSG
[22:29] <Lux> we can just elect to not drop shield and then dsmash
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> explains
[22:29] <D_Disciple> I knew all this info, but didn't perform any of it in match against Lain yesterday
[22:29] <D_Disciple> until my last stock
[22:29] <Lux> DSG = Dash Cancel Shield Grab
[22:30] <Lux> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286235
[22:30] <RedRyu> Well D, I think Practice is the ony thing that can get the mindet in
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> that
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> uh
[22:30] <Lux> it literally BREAKS the match up
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I don't really use terms like that
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but ok
[22:30] <D_Disciple> yeah I know of that Lux
[22:30] <Lux> everyone does
[22:30] <Lux> But it means that if you let the IC control the spacing
[22:30] <D_Disciple> it's that melee too.
[22:30] <Lux> any of your grounded moves are not safe
[22:30] <Lux> and by not approaching ever, you let them control the spacing
[22:31] <D_Disciple> yeah I know
[22:31] <D_Disciple> unless you don't perfect shield
[22:31] <D_Disciple> we can still get a lot of shield pushes off
[22:31] <Lux> misconceptoin
[22:31] <Lux> if they are able to get a dash off
[22:31] <Lux> and come in with DSC slide
[22:31] <Lux> they don't need to powershield
[22:31] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Hm
[22:31] <Lux> unless you tipper fsmash
[22:31] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Well theorycraft is good and all
[22:31] <Lux> it works
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but you have anything where this applied?
[22:32] <philnyeynlihp> what advantage do moves need to have to be safe against it?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> that's what I'm saying or fully charged aura spheres
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> no refuting, just curious
[22:32] <philnyeynlihp> Like framewise?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> also, the other thing
[22:32] <Lux> frame wise?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> does Blizzard have the same effect against aura sphere like DK's bair
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> what no
[22:32] <Lux> well you have the shield flash from 1-3 frames right?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> like our fully charged aura sphere wont beat it until we're at a higher percent?
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Aurasphere goes through blizard
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> like
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> all the time
[22:32] <RedRyu> Blizzard doesn;t beat Aura sphere I think
[22:32] <Lux> and then hitbox for standing grab will come out on frame 6 if they initiate grab on frame 3 of shield
[22:32] <D_Disciple> well it did yesterday
[22:33] <Lux> if they do frames 1 and 2, frame 7
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> no, blizzard doesn't clash w/ anything
[22:33] <D_Disciple> Blizzard beat my aura sphere
[22:33] <RedRyu> Peach's turnips go though it
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it shouldn't have
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> wait, it does?
[22:33] <D_Disciple> it was fully charged
[22:33] <Lux> lucario's lingering hit box means that most likely they aren't dropping early
[22:33] <RT> Wat?
[22:33] <Lux> so it's going to be a standing grab
[22:33] <D_Disciple> future did an aerial blizzard, and it beat it
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> thats odd
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> so let's say a move has -8 in advantage
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Get videos
[22:33] <D_Disciple> and he still hit me.
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> seriously
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> is DSG safe against it?
[22:33] <Lux> there really isn't move that you're going to have advantage on it with hitstun
[22:33] <Lux> because the theory behind it is
[22:33] <Lux> they are shield sliding during the engagement range
[22:34] <Lux> and grabbing on hit stun
[22:34] <Lux> so even if you did jab that's like 4 frames
[22:34] <D_Disciple> Like I literally relearned everything yesterday against ICs and was like, I have a lot of work to do.
[22:34] <Lux> the range they spend in the jab's zoning they are in shield
[22:34] <Lux> and you can keep jabbing, which they don't drop shield
[22:34] <philnyeynlihp> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76McM5CdO1k
[22:35] <Lux> but if you do anything else out of a jab cancel, I don't think you have enough frames
[22:35] <Lux> right
[22:35] <Lux> I told someone to make that video
[22:35] <Lux> lol
[22:35] <Lux> I wrote the DSG thread
[22:35] <Lux> that works because Nado comes out 6 frames every hit box
[22:35] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I have to eat dinner, bbl. continue without me.
[22:36] <Lux> and the hit stun from nado gives an IC 2 frames leeway of window to pull it off
[22:36] <philnyeynlihp> so basically this thing has become a dair camp or die sorta thing, right?
[22:37] <Lux> Dair isn't safe on shield either
[22:37] <Lux> :\
[22:37] <Lux> well if they shield cancel a dash it isn't
[22:37] <Lux> I don't know about standing
[22:37] <Lux> I haven't tested it
[22:37] <RedRyu> I thought if spaced correctly and Lucario doesn't use his second jump it was safe
[22:37] <philnyeynlihp> even if they do SH immediate dair from a plat?
[22:38] <philnyeynlihp> like where they land back on the plat after the dair?
[22:38] <Lux> hmm
[22:38] <Lux> I don't know if there's enough time from the dair hitstun
[22:38] <Lux> to jump back up
[22:38] <Lux> in my experience there isn't
[22:38] <philnyeynlihp> it's not a jump back up sorta thing
[22:38] <Lux> although I've been told if spaced with the very tip it is
[22:38] <philnyeynlihp> yeah
[22:39] <Lux> but that's a very narrow window
[22:39] <Lux> on a moving target
[22:39] <Lux> with infinite punishment if you mess up
[22:39] <RedRyu> Like when I watched Lee vs Lain at Apex
[22:39] <philnyeynlihp> basically you stand on a plat, jump but imediately do a dair after (kinda looks like a SHFFL'd aerial, only it isn't)
[22:39] <Lux> right
[22:39] <RedRyu> he used Dair so much
[22:39] <philnyeynlihp> uuuuh, yeah
[22:39] <Lux> Lain isn't caught up on the metagame stuff
[22:39] <Lux> so he didn't dsg
[22:39] <Lux> I hadn't written the thread yet haha
[22:40] <Lux> I want to dissect that video
[22:40] <Lux> because there were like 6 times that a DSG would have gotten a grab
[22:40] *** RT has quit (Quit: Bye!)
[22:40] *** RT has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:40] <D_Disciple> yeah he's gonna focus more on ICs in singles though
[22:40] <D_Disciple> I hope, that's what a lot of suggested at Hot ****ings
[22:40] <D_Disciple> keep the MK for teams, bring out the ICs in singles only
[22:40] <philnyeynlihp> I'd like to see what you can do with DSG aside from dash -> shield, b/c isn't that kinda telegraphed?
[22:40] <Lux> there are a lot of things
[22:40] <philnyeynlihp> although you also have Dash dance to help
[22:40] <Lux> you should read the thread
[22:41] <Lux> it's a lot of IC tech, but it's interesting
[22:41] <Lux> IC's are unusual in the metagame where the easy counter to the sliding shield is to grab it before they grab you
[22:41] <Lux> but you can't really do that with IC's because of the second climber
[22:42] <philnyeynlihp> okay, so let's say there's a luc ftilt, which has a min. advantage of -6 at 0% and a max of -4 at higher percents
[22:42] <Lux> if you only pummel once, you better hope they drop shield or you could be trading 6% for a dsmash
[22:42] <philnyeynlihp> brb gotta go
[22:42] <Lux> you better be frame perfect then?
[22:42] *** philnyeynlihp has quit (Quit: Bye!)
[22:43] <Lux> because anything more than 2 frames off on that frame trade and you're getting grabbed
[22:43] <RedRyu> so staying in the air is better is what your saying?
[22:43] <Lux> yes
[22:43] <Lux> or platform camp
[22:43] <Lux> and use the your rolls
[22:43] <Lux> BF is better than SV
[22:43] <Lux> because if you platform camp
[22:43] <Lux> we don't have a platform cancel to sneak in a grab
[22:44] <RedRyu> alright
[22:44] <RT> Yeah.
[22:44] <RT> Always try BF.
[22:44] <Lux> right
[22:44] <RedRyu> So your saying Sura sphere and spaced Fsmash is all he has that is safe on the ground
[22:44] <Lux> aurasphere is pretty useless
[22:44] <Lux> because IB beats it
[22:44] <RedRyu> well yeah
[22:44] <RedRyu> but I mean on block
[22:44] <Lux> spaced fsmash is risky as hell
[22:44] <Lux> oh
[22:44] <Lux> yeah
[22:44] <Lux> FAIR
[22:45] <Lux> I think fair is the safest move you guys have in the matchup
[22:45] <Lux> but that's my opinion
[22:45] <Lux> again, haven't played a top level Luca
[22:45] <Lux> would love to
[22:45] <RedRyu> of course
[22:45] <RedRyu> even looking back at Lain vs Lee
[22:45] <RedRyu> I understand why dair was used so much
[22:45] <RedRyu> it separates so well
[22:46] <RedRyu> if used right
[22:46] <RedRyu> but
[22:46] <RedRyu> I can't get over that it's not very safe on block
[22:46] <RedRyu> unless Luc saves his jump
[22:46] <RedRyu> even then
[22:46] <RedRyu> it's hard
[22:47] *** phi1ny3 has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:47] <phi1ny3> back, sorry about that
[22:48] <RedRyu> np
[22:48] <phi1ny3> so to repeat the question, how effective would DSG work against poke oriented moves that are very safe?
[22:48] <Lux> hmm
[22:48] <phi1ny3> so like poking tilts
[22:48] <Lux> Jabs I know work
[22:48] <Lux> umm
[22:49] <Lux> what's the hitbox on ftilt?
[22:49] <D_Disciple> what about our dtilt?
[22:49] <Lux> Uptilt doens't work because the front hit box comes out too late
[22:49] <D_Disciple> how effective do you think that would be?
[22:49] <phi1ny3> Yeah dtilt too
[22:49] <phi1ny3> utilt in general is lol on block
[22:49] <RedRyu> Dilt is simular to Ftilt is range
[22:49] <D_Disciple> we can rotate the utilt though
[22:49] <phi1ny3> dtilt has more horizontal range than ftilt
[22:49] <RedRyu> it's it lol on block though?
[22:49] <Lux> but in theory
[22:50] <RedRyu> isn't*
[22:50] <Lux> on a True DSG, they are going to powershield the move
[22:50] <phi1ny3> dtilt is -6
[22:50] <Lux> because it's supposed to be a 3 frame shield flash
[22:50] <phi1ny3> naw, it's fairly safe, but it isn't like marth dtilt safe
[22:50] <Lux> you have to factor in the next move
[22:50] <RedRyu> huh, I've been thinking that move wrong then
[22:50] <phi1ny3> then ftilt is that two hit move that has like a -6 or -4 depending on percents
[22:51] <Lux> right
[22:51] <Lux> but pure disadvantage is factored for the next possible move which is shield right?
[22:51] <Lux> you can't do that because that gets you grabbed
[22:52] <Lux> I don't think any poking moves on the ground are safe on DSG
[22:52] <Lux> except maybe jab
[22:52] <phi1ny3> yuck
[22:52] <Lux> but then jab doens't have enough knockback on shield
[22:52] <Lux> to slide them far enough away
[22:52] <Lux> iirc
[22:53] <phi1ny3> you are right though that fair's safe, Zucco loves this move in the MU
[22:54] <phi1ny3> I think you're correct in that assumption
[22:56] <D_Disciple> which move?
[22:56] <D_Disciple> jab?
[22:56] <RedRyu> I wish I saw more ICies used this tech
[22:56] <phi1ny3> How would this be applied in a defensive position btw? Because I notice that this is more of an approach oriented tech
[22:59] <phi1ny3> k, so I see that fsmash is an option that can be used defensively for this tech as ICs
[23:01] <phi1ny3> So tell me one other thing, you do the DSG and it's a multihit move, how often does nana get hit by the other move? Or can you be frame perfect and shield w/ both climbers to avoid getting hit?
[23:02] <phi1ny3> b/c I saw in the vid that nana sometimes got hit and sometimes didn't, but I'm not sure as to whether that's because of the tornado's hitbox refresh didn't start yet or what
[23:03] <RedRyu> I'm trying to figure what is safe and what they can reasonably react to and grab us
[23:05] <RedRyu> of so jab is frame 6
[23:05] <RedRyu> Ftilt is frame 12
[23:06] <RedRyu> Dtilt is frame 9
[23:07] <RedRyu> Fsmash is like frame 20 or something lol
[23:07] <RedRyu> If I'm understanding this right
[23:07] <phi1ny3> fsmash is good if you strutterstep and charge (found out how to do both at the same time, it's pretty nifty)
[23:08] <RedRyu> to do the tech
[23:08] <RedRyu> you need to know your going to shield something
[23:08] <RedRyu> because a mix-up can screw this up
[23:08] <phi1ny3> thats true
[23:08] <phi1ny3> now stages
[23:08] <phi1ny3> obv. brinstar if it doesn't get banned rofl
[23:08] <RedRyu> or BF
[23:09] <RedRyu> BF is mad good
[23:09] <RedRyu> however
[23:09] <phi1ny3> BF's great starter
[23:09] <phi1ny3> SV can help too, but it's also kinda scary
[23:09] <Lux> back
[23:09] <Lux> Umm Ftilt is good hitting Nana out of DSG
[23:10] <Lux> because sometimes if I don't read the ftilt, I'll shield drop
[23:10] <Lux> but the problem is that nana is running behind
[23:10] <Lux> so the move doesn't typically hit
[23:10] <Lux> her
[23:10] <Lux> because she's lagging it
[23:11] <RedRyu> doesn't this cause some problems though?
[23:11] <RedRyu> like, if she's lagging behind
[23:12] <RedRyu> wouldn't this mean Popo or Nana would be off key for a PS?
[23:12] <Lux> right
[23:12] <Lux> but you don't NEED to powershield things to grab
[23:12] <Lux> as long as you're in grab range
[23:13] <RedRyu> this is true
[23:14] <Lux> right
[23:14] <Lux> so if you're hitting nana with a move
[23:14] <Lux> it means popo is that much closer
[23:14] <Lux> aka in grab range
[23:15] <Lux> FORTUNATELY Lucario has the lowest solo dthrow cg
[23:15] <Lux> I'm think
[23:15] <RedRyu> he doesn't
[23:16] <Lux> who does?
[23:16] <RedRyu> jiggs is lower I think
[23:16] <RedRyu> 16% compared to 31%
[23:16] <Lux> oh
[23:16] <Lux> that would be right
[23:16] <Lux> but it's relatively low lol
[23:16] <Lux> let me fact check
[23:16] <RedRyu> he's tied with Samus with 31%
[23:16] <RedRyu> but yeah he's really low
[23:17] <RedRyu> poor Wolf
[23:17] <RedRyu> 98%
[23:17] <RedRyu> wtf he gets so much BS on him
[23:17] <phi1ny3> plus you can do dtilt on him, right?
[23:17] <phi1ny3> like afterward
[23:17] <RedRyu> yeah...
[23:17] <phi1ny3> ew
[23:18] <RedRyu> so solo Dthow CG isn;t too much of a worry
[23:19] <RedRyu> 31% is pretty low
[23:19] <RedRyu> King DDD goes to 103%...wow
[23:19] *** RT has quit (Quit: Bye!)
[23:20] <RedRyu> back to stages
[23:20] <RedRyu> Ban FD
[23:20] <RedRyu> every time
[23:21] <phi1ny3> lol
[23:21] <RedRyu> I heard it's possible to beat them there
[23:21] <RedRyu> but I wouldn't even try it
[23:22] <RedRyu> cause I can;t think of any other stage that they do better on
[23:22] <Lux> umm
[23:22] <Lux> yeah
[23:22] <Lux> ban FD
[23:23] <RedRyu> So in the air
[23:23] <Lux> you need platforms to safe land on
[23:24] <RedRyu> with Ice climbers, what purpose does each aerial surve?
[23:24] <RedRyu> like Uair is spacing
[23:24] <RedRyu> and or killing in some situations
[23:24] <RedRyu> but the others, I;m not sure
[23:26] <phi1ny3> bair is pretty good for following chars that kinda horizontally escaped uair's spacing
[23:27] <phi1ny3> nair's good for space control/ use in conjunction w/ desynch blizzard
[23:28] <phi1ny3> and sometimes good in some situations for reading since you can hit them on a weak low trajectory and read the getup if they don't tech, pretty rare though
[23:28] <phi1ny3> love doing that on a ledgehop though
[23:29] <RedRyu> and Dair sucks right?
[23:29] <phi1ny3> oh yeah and bair/uair can be used for landing lag desynchs
[23:29] <phi1ny3> so great for ending a juggle and getting quickly back to desynched stuff
[23:29] <phi1ny3> dair's pretty bad yeah
[23:30] <phi1ny3> although you can alter its horizontal movement a bit
[23:30] <phi1ny3> iirc
[23:30] <phi1ny3> fairs a bit more obvious
[23:30] <phi1ny3> only for reading the occasional air dodge or possible kill, and spiking purposes
[23:31] <phi1ny3> btw I hate playing ICs on wifi lol
[23:31] <phi1ny3> remember when I did some friendlies w/ you Red?
[23:31] <RedRyu> yeah
[23:31] <RedRyu> lol
[23:31] <phi1ny3> like I could NOT ever get a CG to work rofl
[23:32] <RedRyu> I wish my comp didn't screw up I had replays of it lol
[23:32] <phi1ny3> lol
[23:32] <RedRyu> Fino did the infinite on me on wifi on the AiB ladder
[23:32] <phi1ny3> too good
[23:32] <RedRyu> then he switched to Olimar and ***** me
[23:33] <RedRyu> but yeah
[23:33] <phi1ny3> Oh yeah the usmash hobble is really fun, and it changes everyone's opinion about how boring hobble is
[23:33] <phi1ny3> although it's still a terrible way to get damaged lol
[23:34] <RedRyu> From what I'm getting from what had been said thus far
[23:34] <RedRyu> on how this MU works
[23:34] <phi1ny3> Like I was showing Felix and some OR players how you can do bthrow -> footstool -> Ice block and charge a smash w/ nana as they getup, then regrab just after she smashes
[23:34] <phi1ny3> it's a lot of fair and dair and some weird hit and run play
[23:34] <RedRyu> Lucario needs to mix-up ground moves
[23:35] <RedRyu> like he can;t get read
[23:35] <RedRyu> air is better
[23:35] <phi1ny3> and try to cross up on shield if you can
[23:35] <phi1ny3> it'll be pretty rare since IC walls cover a loooot lol
[23:35] <RedRyu> Something I learned
[23:35] <RedRyu> like if they get really shield happy and your sure they won't spotdodge
[23:35] <RedRyu> ,just grab them and Fthrow
[23:36] <RedRyu> I'm careful about that
[23:36] <RedRyu> because it's something that can be baited and the risk for falling for it is pretty high
[23:37] <phi1ny3> yeah
[23:37] <phi1ny3> I wanted to hear what Zucco had to say about the MU
[23:37] <phi1ny3> aside from Cheese he's beaten a lot of ICs lol
[23:37] <RedRyu> Cheese never used ICs on me on the AiB ladder
[23:38] <RedRyu> he used random characters half of the time
[23:38] <RedRyu> except when he loses
[23:39] <Lux> haha oh Cheese
[23:39] <RedRyu> I even asked him who he mained because he seemed to be a raondom main on the ladder
[23:42] <Lux> So to summarize my thoughts, I think with some of the new stuff the IC's have been finding, the matchup is solidly in our favor. I think that none of your ground moves are safe if you aren't controlling the spacing of the match. In terms of aerials, Fair and Dair are your best bets, but even Dair is risky. Platform camping is your friend. Otherwise you are screwed
[23:42] <RedRyu> I think this is even from this dicussion this far
[23:43] <Lux> your guys opinion, not mine :\
[23:43] <RedRyu> I wish I could have seen moire Icies using that AT
[23:43] <Lux> a lot of them use it intuitively
[23:43] <RedRyu> that would influence me a lot depending on how often they could do it
[23:43] <Lux> they just haven't dissected it enough to know how to utilize it to the maximum
[23:43] <RedRyu> and reliably in a match
[23:43] <RedRyu> like
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Ok
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Been back
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> uh
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Someone please get me a log of this :< if possible.
[23:44] <RedRyu> Still, your opinion is valid
[23:44] <RedRyu> since you gave good inputs
[23:44] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> mmmhmm
[23:44] <RedRyu> and showed you had a grap of what ICies can do
[23:44] <Lux> lol
[23:44] <Lux> what's good for you guys is that Lucario is a pretty weird match up for us
[23:45] <Lux> because it's not like "grab them if they are on the ground" "Uair them if they are in the air"
[23:45] <RedRyu> I wish people would stop dropping the CG
[23:45] <RedRyu> on Lucario
[23:45] <Lux> we lose the latter option because of your dair
[23:45] <RedRyu> but the ground one remains valid, in your opinion correct?
[23:45] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I wish
[23:45] <Lux> right
[23:45] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> More ICs
[23:46] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> played like kakera though :<
[23:46] <phi1ny3> if wishes were fishes
[23:46] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they'd be funner to watch
[23:46] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> IC matches are still hype though
[23:47] <RedRyu> I'll avoid a ratio on this mu
[23:47] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Same here
[23:47] <RedRyu> because I don't think I'm experiancing what this mu is truely like
[23:47] <RedRyu> and
[23:47] <RedRyu> something's aren;t set in astone
[23:48] <RedRyu> so anywhere from 4:6 - 6:4 or something I won't question until I truely learn this
[23:49] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I maintain the stance that its even or slight IC advantage, simply because we're human and whatnot.
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if we were perfect and ICs never ****ed up the CG ever it would be ICs advantage no doubt
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they do
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> We can take advantage
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> :>
[23:50] <RedRyu> yeah
[23:50] <phi1ny3> and lol CPs are win
[23:50] <RedRyu> oh yeah
[23:50] <RedRyu> I forgot
[23:51] <RedRyu> IC aren;t great on a lot of cps
[23:51] <RedRyu> they have good stages ans nuetral for them
[23:51] <RedRyu> but
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Doesn't matter.
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> GAME 1
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> WIN OR LOSE
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> welp theres the set
[23:51] <RedRyu> not quite
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> just note
[23:52] <RedRyu> where can Icies take Lucario that would make this really bad for it
[23:52] <RedRyu> other than FD
[23:52] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> true true
[23:52] <RedRyu> Lucario
[23:52] <RedRyu> has a few toys
[23:52] <RedRyu> like Brinstar
[23:52] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I don't like brinstar
[23:52] <RedRyu> really?
[23:52] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ever since my friend learned the %s where to kill with upsmash early
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it evens out the Lava saving me sometimes
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and even then
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> most ICs ban it
[23:53] <RedRyu> Ok, how about Cruise?
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> meh
[23:53] <D_Disciple> stalling for a split second in the lava on brinstar is hella fun
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I would rather
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Take them to Frigate
[23:53] <RedRyu> or that
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> or Lylat
[23:53] <RedRyu> not sure on Lylat
[23:53] <D_Disciple> take ICs to frigate?
[23:54] <D_Disciple> that's really annoying
[23:54] <phi1ny3> what about PS1?
[23:54] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I don't like PS1
[23:54] <phi1ny3> Or if it's allowed in your area, Japes?
[23:54] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> the layout isn't that great for plat camping
[23:54] <phi1ny3> Japes promotes lots of camping
[23:54] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Japes is good
[23:54] <phi1ny3> and iirc ICs get lol'd in the water
[23:55] <D_Disciple> if you fight them around where the stage transformation breaks up the cg, it makes it really annoying for them to play on that stage
[23:55] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> eh
[23:55] <phi1ny3> yeah the stage transformations always make them drop a CG
[23:55] <phi1ny3> on PS1
[23:55] <D_Disciple> the transformations help us out a lot too if you want to camp them.
[23:55] <phi1ny3> although I can see Ice blocks get really nasty
[23:55] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe
[23:55] <D_Disciple> grass stage and water stage are awesome
[23:55] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> in like
[23:56] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Bo5+ matches
[23:56] <phi1ny3> imo halberds a really good CP for them and not just because of the ceiling
[23:56] <phi1ny3> like for ICs to use
[23:56] <RedRyu> Battlefield Yoshi's Island Smashville Lylat Cruise Pokémon Stadium Final Destination Castle Siege Delfino Plaza Halberd
[23:56] <phi1ny3> because on the transition part of the stage, Ice blocks can control really well
[23:57] <RedRyu> those are the 9 possible starters
[23:57] <RedRyu> so any stike people as good
[23:57] <RedRyu> or bad
[23:57] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Real Quick Question
[23:57] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Battlefield or Yoshis
[23:57] <RedRyu> BF personally
[23:57] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if someone use the SV/BF/Yoshis spread
[23:58] <phi1ny3> hmmm
[23:58] <RedRyu> I'd strike SV on that list
[23:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Anyways
[23:58] <RedRyu> or Yoshi's
[23:58] <RedRyu> bdepnding
[23:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> when faced with something like MLG tier neutral striking.
[23:59] <phi1ny3> imo depends on how comfortable the ICs player is on the stages
[23:59] <phi1ny3> I've seen some **** stuff happen on BF
[23:59] <phi1ny3> I personally like this stage
[23:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Be an ******* and get rid of FD, SV,BF really quickly
[23:59] <RedRyu> siege seems alright until the 3rd transformation
[23:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> coz like
[23:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ussually those are the 3 most ICs are comfortable on right?
[23:59] <phi1ny3> but I know a lot of ICs don't
[23:59] <phi1ny3> yeah
[00:00] <phi1ny3> and you can get some gimmicks coming off of stage tilts
[00:00] <RedRyu> So for Castle siege
[00:00] <phi1ny3> but some ICs are pretty smart w/ stage layout so it's eh
[00:00] <RedRyu> it's bad on the third part
[00:00] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Siege isn't good at all
[00:00] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> VS ICs
[00:00] <RedRyu> yeah like I thought
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> You're only REALLY advantegeus on 1st
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> 2nd is a toss-up
[00:01] <phi1ny3> hey guys whaddaya think about Delphino? seems like a wildcard
[00:01] <RedRyu> ICies CP'd me there
[00:01] <RedRyu> I dunno why
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Delf is nice
[00:01] <phi1ny3> yeah the stage kinda lends itself to either dumb or cool stuff imo
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it benefits both parties kinda equally
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> We can do pseudo sharking there
[00:02] <RedRyu> but then they get FD like areas
[00:02] <phi1ny3> and there's Ice block rebound areas that are dumb sometimes
[00:02] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Ledge-drop -> Jump -> Uair -> ES -> choose which side you want to grab = lol
[00:02] <RedRyu> yeah that works
[00:03] <RedRyu> If norfair is legal I think it;s a good idea
[00:03] <phi1ny3> yeah you could play a very dumb sharking game
[00:03] <phi1ny3> norfair is lol
[00:04] <RedRyu> I hear mario bros is in ther favor heavily
[00:04] <RedRyu> two turtles wtf
[00:04] <RedRyu> lol
[00:04] <phi1ny3> lol
[00:04] <phi1ny3> imma go now
[00:04] <phi1ny3> good to see the productive discussion
[00:04] <phi1ny3> btw guys look into uthrow more, it's ****
[00:05] <RedRyu> ok
[00:05] <RedRyu> I'll work on getting this chat recorded
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> D
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> pass me the log later
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> or Ryu
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> either one
[00:05] <RedRyu> I'll PM it
[00:05] <phi1ny3> it's like I looked into this and in some MUs you get small to medium rewards for relatively little risk
enjoy.[/collapse]
This IRC is to be used for serious Lucario talk on match ups, strategies, possible new techniques and other intelligent discussion. The general goal is to share information between all Lucario players, expand on old play styles and character specific strategies as well as develop new ones, and hopefully learn and grow collectively as a community.
~~~~~~~~
Rules
1 - This is NOT a social chat, this is a room made for LEGITIMATE INTELLIGENT Lucario metagame discussion. Use #Lucario for non-serious discussion. That means no excessive off topic nonsense, spamming or random links to things not related to Lucario. If I even see the words "furry", "yiff" or anything of the like, you will be banned indefinitely.
2 - If a new idea is brought forward, be it a new technique or a different approach to a matchup, it is to be THOROUGHLY discussed and tested from multiple angles before either heralded as useful or dismissed as useless. That means serious application in multiple matches as need be until it's full potential is clear. Excessive pessimism towards new ideas will constitute a 3 day ban. Do not fear change.
3 - That last rule being said, do not post anything that is VERY obviously useless in every situation. I don't care if you can add 2 pixels to ES on the full blood moon of August, and I'm sure anyone semi-competent at grabbing the ledge does either. However, do NOT dwell on these things for too long. We're trying to promote new ideas, growth and creativity, which by nature tends to bring out useless techs/ideas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
IRC client download links
http://www.globalgamers.net/?p=webchat (in browser IRC client hosted by GG themselves, simply input your name and the channel's name #LucarioMeta)
http://www.mirc.com/
http://www.xchat.org/
http://www.mibbit.com
Enjoy
(credit to FlameWaveK, I stole the name for the channel lol)
I'm sooo not surprised by the first match up discussion at all lol.
