Lucas BBR MU Chart

[rPSIvysaur]

Bit late, but let's discuss some stuff about what we feel is right or wrong about the MU chart that the BBR made for Lucas.

For reference:

{colsp=2}
-4: |
-3: |
-2: |
-1: |
0: |
1: |
2: |

anyway, my personal chart (assuming legal infinites )

Spoiler

{colsp=2}
-4: |
-3: |
-2: |
-1: |
0: |
1: |
2: |

Thoughts on some of them

Spoiler

Marth/DK: This is based on the infinite mostly. Avoiding a grab, like Mekos said, for 8 minutes is ridiculous. Lucas should just flat out switch out in these MUs. Without the infinite, I would definitely rate DK as a -2, because he is still rather good at shutting Lucas down, but not terribly. Lucas has some pretty fun combos on DK, but it's ultimately in vain since he has trouble killing heavy weights. Marth would still be a -3 without "infinites." He's really solid at ledge trapping Lucas to death and just all around beats Lucas.
Dedede: He just flat out ***** Lucas. It's a terrible match-up. Lucas can't do anything safely against a good Dedede and Lucas has a terrible time trying to kill him. Lucas' air game gets beat by D3's multiple jumps and his enormous range aerials, and his footsie game gets destroyed by the fact that D3's grab means an enormous amount of damage with it's enormous range. Lucas simply can't cope in this MU.
Sheik: She's fast an all, but it's hard to say she has such a huge advantage on Lucas to be at Snake or Dedede level. Lucas can still go pretty well in footsies against her and she's not that hard to kill for Lucas. She's just fast and Lucas has to be smart and play with a level head in this MU. Lucas just has to make sure his SDI and his spacing is on par to avoid the grab and f-tilt lock. Out of the grab, Lucas should be mashing rather quickly and platforms usually get in the way for things like Air Release > DACUS unless you're playing on FD. It's not that horrible for Lucas.
Falco: Falco's Jab screws with Lucas' ground game hard. He can run away and shoot lasers and hit you. It's not like he can magent all of them. Magnet has start-up and only works off of a read. It's not like lasers even heal you that much. Outside of that, Lucas has little he can do against a smart Falco.
Kirby: Kirby isn't that bad for Lucas. Kirby doesn't have any strong ground release options against Lucas and a smart Lucas will be able to avoid the kill move rather easily. Lucas also doesn't have much a problem with killing Kirby.
Pikachu: Inb4ESAM. It's rather even. The only problem is, is that we have to compare us to ESAM. There aren't really any Lucas' at ESAMs level, so it makes it hard to gauge the match-up. But from my experience, it's even.
Link: It's not that bad of a match-up for Link. I have trouble seeing how Lucas shuts down Link so hard. The Link shouldn't be getting gimped in this MU. As long as he DI's correctly, he'll get back to the stage. Rather than that, they go pretty toe to toe with Lucas taking the advantage.
Zelda: What does Zelda even have against Lucas? She can't camp us, it's far too easy for us to absorb Din's. We can easily camp her when we have the lead, and it's almost impossible for her to get in against us. Our D-air beats her up-smash. And even if we do get caught in an u-smash, we can SDI down and avoid the last hit and punish her with jab for landing an up-smash. Lucas has a tiny hurt-box for her to even try to lightning kick and the rest of her kill moves just don't work well. Lucas beats her pretty solidly, especially when he's holding the lead.

 

[Juushichi]

Lucas beats Mario. Not by a ton. But it's +1.

 

[KoozyK]

anyway, my personal chart (assuming legal infinites )

Spoiler

{colsp=2}
-4: |
-3: |
-2: |
-1: |
0: |
1: |
2: |

Thoughts on some of them

Spoiler

Marth/DK: This is based on the infinite mostly. Avoiding a grab, like Mekos said, for 8 minutes is ridiculous. Lucas should just flat out switch out in these MUs. Without the infinite, I would definitely rate DK as a -2, because he is still rather good at shutting Lucas down, but not terribly. Lucas has some pretty fun combos on DK, but it's ultimately in vain since he has trouble killing heavy weights. Marth would still be a -3 without "infinites." He's really solid at ledge trapping Lucas to death and just all around beats Lucas.
Dedede: He just flat out ***** Lucas. It's a terrible match-up. Lucas can't do anything safely against a good Dedede and Lucas has a terrible time trying to kill him. Lucas' air game gets beat by D3's multiple jumps and his enormous range aerials, and his footsie game gets destroyed by the fact that D3's grab means an enormous amount of damage with it's enormous range. Lucas simply can't cope in this MU.
Sheik: She's fast an all, but it's hard to say she has such a huge advantage on Lucas to be at Snake or Dedede level. Lucas can still go pretty well in footsies against her and she's not that hard to kill for Lucas. She's just fast and Lucas has to be smart and play with a level head in this MU. Lucas just has to make sure his SDI and his spacing is on par to avoid the grab and f-tilt lock. Out of the grab, Lucas should be mashing rather quickly and platforms usually get in the way for things like Air Release > DACUS unless you're playing on FD. It's not that horrible for Lucas.
Falco: Falco's Jab screws with Lucas' ground game hard. He can run away and shoot lasers and hit you. It's not like he can magent all of them. Magnet has start-up and only works off of a read. It's not like lasers even heal you that much. Outside of that, Lucas has little he can do against a smart Falco.
Kirby: Kirby isn't that bad for Lucas. Kirby doesn't have any strong ground release options against Lucas and a smart Lucas will be able to avoid the kill move rather easily. Lucas also doesn't have much a problem with killing Kirby.
Pikachu: Inb4ESAM. It's rather even. The only problem is, is that we have to compare us to ESAM. There aren't really any Lucas' at ESAMs level, so it makes it hard to gauge the match-up. But from my experience, it's even.
Link: It's not that bad of a match-up for Link. I have trouble seeing how Lucas shuts down Link so hard. The Link shouldn't be getting gimped in this MU. As long as he DI's correctly, he'll get back to the stage. Rather than that, they go pretty toe to toe with Lucas taking the advantage.
Zelda: What does Zelda even have against Lucas? She can't camp us, it's far too easy for us to absorb Din's. We can easily camp her when we have the lead, and it's almost impossible for her to get in against us. Our D-air beats her up-smash. And even if we do get caught in an u-smash, we can SDI down and avoid the last hit and punish her with jab for landing an up-smash. Lucas has a tiny hurt-box for her to even try to lightning kick and the rest of her kill moves just don't work well. Lucas beats her pretty solidly, especially when he's holding the lead.

can u make one for people who b-stick?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Umm... what?
You and your crazy control set-ups...

 

[T-block]

can u make one for people who b-stick?

B-sticking doesn't make Lucas a separate character -_- If b-sticking makes Lucas significantly better, then the chart already reflects b-sticking. It is meant to represent Lucas at the current highest level of play.

I'm fairly confident about Lucas going -2 against PT, although -1 wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Ivysaur tends to get molested...it's too easy for Lucas to get in close and put on some serious hurt. Charizard does fine if he has space though... it's a little uncomfortable on the more cramped stages, but nothing unmanageable - plus he has massive grab range, and grabs lead to regrabs and d-tilt. Squirtle does amazingly here though. Squirtle's b-air and f-air are faster than Lucas', and they beat out his n-air. Getting juggled is a problem too, since Squirtle's u-air is ridiculous... air dodging gets you hit more often than not, and d-air involves too much commitment. PSI Magnet is what keeps this from being a huge problem. On the ground, between f-tilt, jab, and landing f-air/b-air, combined with the fact that grabbing isn't an option for Lucas, Squirtle pressures Lucas' shield very well.

 

[Chuee]

hmmm I wasn't sure whether or not Squirtle had a GR chain on lucas or not. Reflex always said he didn't.
Though I'd put it as -1 mostly because Squirtle has a smallstep regrab on Ness and that MU's rated as -2.

 

[T-block]

Lucas' break goes far enough to avoid a standing/small-step regrab from both Squirtle and Charizard. They both get dash regrabs though, for what that's worth >_>

If we are comparing to Ness, then yes, I agree Lucas makes more sense at -1. However, all in all, I'd be more inclined to put Ness at +3 and leave Lucas at +2. The Ness panel refused to agree to +3/-3 >_>

 

[Tokaio]

That turtle is a pain in the ***. -.-
PT is -2 imo. Only thing that surprised me was Sheik/Sheilda at -3, but that's it.

 

[Yink]

If we are comparing to Ness, then yes, I agree Lucas makes more sense at -1. However, all in all, I'd be more inclined to put Ness at +3 and leave Lucas at +2. The Ness panel refused to agree to +3/-3 >_>

But you're not gonna, because we brought up reasonable points.

EDIT: Also...I never realized how bad Sheik was for Lucas. Huh..

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: Also...I never realized how bad Sheik was for Lucas. Huh..

I don't understand why it's so bad.

Also rPSI, you never explained to me how Lucas loses to Bowser.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Bowser has great tools to keep Lucas out. He can jump around Lucas using claw hopping rather well, and it's hard for Lucas to commit to something to punish it since it has enormous range and no landing lag. Then when Lucas approaches, he has to be extremely careful, otherwise every approach is beaten by an up-b OoS or just a flat out well timed Up-B. Lucas can try camping in this MU, but it hardly does anything since Bowser is so damn heavy, taking 8 or 5 percent every once in a while isn't going to phaze him. He's also really hard for Lucas to kill because his ground moveset goes really toe-to-toe with Lucas and always wins in trades.
He also has a grab release chaingrab which ends in a d-tilt. It's not even hard for Bowser to do since it's 21 frames of release advantage which is extremely easy for him to do the CG since it doesn't even have to be buffered.
and his side-b is ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member]

Ah, okay. Thanks for the explanation. :3

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Link vs Lucas is even...but it's probably +1 for Lucas.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think Link vs Lucas is even...but it's probably +1 for Lucas.

I agree with this. It's a pretty close MU.

 

[Chuee]

Bowser has great tools to keep Lucas out. He can jump around Lucas using claw hopping rather well, and it's hard for Lucas to commit to something to punish it since it has enormous range and no landing lag. Then when Lucas approaches, he has to be extremely careful, otherwise every approach is beaten by an up-b OoS or just a flat out well timed Up-B. Lucas can try camping in this MU, but it hardly does anything since Bowser is so damn heavy, taking 8 or 5 percent every once in a while isn't going to phaze him. He's also really hard for Lucas to kill because his ground moveset goes really toe-to-toe with Lucas and always wins in trades.
He also has a grab release chaingrab which ends in a d-tilt. It's not even hard for Bowser to do since it's 21 frames of release advantage which is extremely easy for him to do the CG since it doesn't even have to be buffered.
and his side-b is ridiculous.

I never thought Bowser was that hard, I just nair and air release his grabs :3

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I never thought Bowser was that hard, I just nair and air release his grabs :3

He can Up-B OoS our N-air, assuming we're doing a buffered SH Nair. He also has a huge shield.
If he pummels correctly, he's more than likely going to get a ground release.

 

[T-block]

Doesn't d-air begin poking Bowser's shield ridiculously early? Might even poke a full shield, no?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I don't recall, but he should be tilting his shield up after the first hit of d-air.

 

[Chuee]

He can Up-B OoS our N-air, assuming we're doing a buffered SH Nair. He also has a huge shield.
If he pummels correctly, he's more than likely going to get a ground release.

Nair is 0 on shield according to our frame data so he shouldn't be able to up-b it.
As for his pummels if he straight pummels (one after another) you can air release, however Reflex says if you time the pummels to the opponents mashing you can force a ground break.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Nair is 0 on shield according to our frame data so he shouldn't be able to up-b it.
As for his pummels if he straight pummels (one after another) you can air release, however Reflex says if you time the pummels to the opponents mashing you can force a ground break.

I said SH Buffered N-air. When you buffer a N-air out of Short Hop, it's a -6 frame advantage on shield. Bowser can Up-B that. Lucas will have to delay his n-air and risk land-cancelling rather than auto-cancelling.
I know my frame data Chuee, please don't question that.
The air-release is entirely non-dependent on what Lucas does. It has a small window of opportunity if the Bowser messes up pummels. It's relying on the Bowser to mess up, which we should not rely on (but it is helpful!)

 

[Chuee]

Ok
I still think it's even though :333333

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Blahhh.

 

[Chuee]

troll in the dungeon

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Chuee]

You necro'd a month old thread just to say Blah?
Obvious troll.

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright, let's bump this thread. Here is our new reference. What I would like to see is other Lucas mains opinions on the BBR MU Chart and their personal views on what they feel the MU chart should look like.

BBR MU Chart:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Example:

J's MU Chart

-3
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I think your chart looks pretty good, but I dunno about the ice climbers, I wouldn't quite make it 0, maybe -1. I'll help more when I get back from school.

 

[Jamwa]

Snake I'd make a -2 (but don't listen to me, I haven't versed Atilla yet (best snake in Aus))
R.O.B. would be -1, -2 seems a bit much.
If R.O.B. is -2 then so should Falco & Pit imo

just suggestions, but everything else makes sense. Old MU, i don't even-

 

[yoshi8984]

Why is Falco -1? I find it rather difficult. =P

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I say Snake would be -3, and that's for sure. So many ways to camp you, then just grab and tilt you.
Rob... -2 sounds reasonable, he's a little... eh, -1 might be better not really sure.

Falco I might go for -2 just because of how weak Lucas is to grabs, and he can destroy us if we're not careful.

Fox? Idk why he's -1, I might go with 0.

Pit can gimp us pretty easily but we do have zap jumping, we practically have to camp the whole time, so I agree with -1, maybe -2.

Donkey Kong and Marth I might make -4.

I'll explain my reasoning for Marth, first of all, he already dominates Lucas without his infinite grab, he has a grab release to smash, and he can basically just deflect all of our attacks/cancel them

Another reason, when we use PKT to recover, he just uses Down B and gets a free hit.

DK, haven't fought any good enough to know the infinite grab well (had it happen like once), but if you ever fought one and got grabbed once, that stocks gone.

There's a lot of characters I agree with being easier than what they really are, but DK and Marth... eh I don't see them as very possible unless you REALLY set your mind to it, and we have to put in x30000000000000000 more effort than they do.

My half ******** cousin 8 year old cousin (He's literally stupid, dunno about ******** but somethings wrong with him), he liked grabbing so I told him to pick Marth and he infinite grabbed me a few times.

Marth mains tell me it takes skill and timing, if a stupid 8 year old kid can do it, it doesn't require anywhere near the effort we put in.

 

[#HBC | J]

Okay let me explain some of my opinions a bit in detail and I'll just start with a few.



The only reason DK is this bad is because his infinite is legal. If it was not for the legal it would be at worst a -1. However due to the infinite being allowed, it makes things really annoying but it isn't impossible to win, just really freaking hard haha.



Pit is definitely not a -2 especially when compared to characters like MK/TL/DDD. Pit does make recovering a bit harder and is the best character at gimping us when we use our PKT2. When wavebouncing/Zap jumping, he has abilites to rack up some damage and make it a little hellish in terms of landing. Offstage, he pretty much wrecks us and there is not too too much we can do to him offstage due to his sheild, we can still rack damage on him offstage. Anyways, we hurt Pits camping game with PSIM and canceling it but we do not go even with him. Pit has a slight advantage due to him being able to kill us easier than we can kill him but it's a give and take battle. If we can get into Pit's bubble, we can really do some damage to him, but we gotta keep the pressure up. Pit is very annoying haha. Pit doesn't counter Lucas, he just has an advantage over him.



That is a MU that Mekos/FAE will need to talk about more because they have beaten good Falcos a couple times with Lucas. Nothing about the MU screams "counter" because Falco has the Dthrow CG till 40% and can end in a stage-spike but we can recover from that easily. I'll try and do more research on this, but this has never been a -2 MU so I don't get why it would be now all of a sudden.



Someone talk to me about R.O.B. and why he is -1. I really feel this is a character that can really do some damage to us. Offstage he is so dkdjskdhuedsjn annoying to deal with and getting into him is really hard. I don't know, this MU is just something that is infuriating to deal with. Stupid Gyro.



ICs has always been one of better MUs in terms of top-tier characters. We have the tools to separate them insanely well and we can kill Nana at stupid easy percentages after separating them. Lucas isn't that easy to grab for ICs and I can agree to a -1 percentage, but my honest opinion is a 0. It is by no means a -2 and that is just crazy silly. I can go more into this later.

If there are any others let me know. I can even go and grab the old MUs summaries me/rPSI wrote in the past to help explain some of these.

 

[z00ted]

Lucas should probably be -1 with Peach.

Played FAE, Pink Fresh, and Mekos a bunch.
It's a fun matchup, I don't feel like she has that much of an advantage over him.

 

[#HBC | J]

Can you go more into that? I've seen people saying the MU is more -1 lately and I am trying to figure out that is. However if that is what you+the other three, I am more than likely to oblige my opinion as faulty compared to that.

Thank you, Illmatic by the way.

My problem is the CG you guys have can get really annoying sometimes.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I agree with your points above, honestly if DK didn't have the grab, I'd say it's 0 or so.

But sadly he does, and so does Marth.

ROB's Gyro does get annoying, and Pit... hmm, I have to think about it, I think it should be -1/-2 for sure though.

Ice Climbers, -1 or 0, they're easy to separate with nair.

 

[yoshi8984]

Can't you just reflect the Gyro when it's on the ground with our F-Smash? I really don't see the Gyro much of a problem. (Then again I've only gone to 1 tourney so I haven't played any high-level players )

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

You can but the matchup is still really annoying.

He can camp quite well too imo.

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

My list

-3:

-2:

-1:

0:

+1:

+2:

+3:

This list is about as bad as the BBR one for lucas because both were mostly my opinions

 

[Lukingordex]

That is a MU that Mekos/FAE will need to talk about more because they have beaten good Falcos a couple times with Lucas. Nothing about the MU screams "counter" because Falco has the Dthrow CG till 40% and can end in a stage-spike but we can recover from that easily. I'll try and do more research on this, but this has never been a -2 MU so I don't get why it would be now all of a sudden.

Is possible to DI to escape that stage-spike.
There's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdVrVrl7gg

My list

-3:

-2:

-1:

0:

+1:

+2:

+3:

This list is about as bad as the BBR one for lucas because both were mostly my opinions

Hmm

Luigi being +1 and Mario being 0 makes sense,Mario's fireballs are much more effective than Luigi's and Mario has his cape to reflect our Pk fire.

Curious to know about your opinion about Yoshi,I think it's only -1,but -2 makes sence because of the DR tricks that annoys Lucas,the CG and the grab release>Upsmash too.

Curious to see your opinion about Samus too,I tough she was +1 for us,but you're FAE,and I need to believe you T_T

Also curious to know about your Bowser opinion,I think it's even,but again,you're FAE.

 

[#HBC | J]

Thanks Lukin for the falco vid.

Oh FAE. We need to have a talk sometime alright bro?

 

[yoshi8984]

Wow that video really helps, thanks Lukin.

@FAE I can't see Marth being -1 O___O
He out speeds, out ranges and has that annoying deathgrab on us.

I don't see G&W being even either.

Then again I don't have much experience. XP