Lucas in teams: "Wa-Wa-Wobbuffet!" Wario! ~Peach will be up when I'm not lazy~

[#HBC | J]

this discussion is STILL going on so please bring any new info in on it!

Though we are waiting on someone others can still input =P

We are on this Character so please remember that. (gonna use that photo for the front page once it's done.)

 

[Mekos]

I would never team with a pikachu....I feel as tho lucas should play the support and punisher role in teams. Thats at least what I do.

Lucas needs a strong offensive partner. A teamate who has alot of priority.

I'm not saying he's a bad teamate. It's just the team needs to make sure that they have good strats and tactics for every situation. They have good setups that I am imagining in my head right now.

My main point tho is at the top level I feel as tho Lucas shouldn't be the aggressive partner. If the pika player can play that role then they might do well. We can't just say because pika can heal lucas that he is good because there is many characters that can heal lucas. So we must look at pika individual skills as a teamplayer and what role he can play. So my question to you all is can pika play the aggressor. If not then he is not a good teamate for lucas at least not my lucas(my playstyle).

 

[#HBC | J]

super glad this thread has a bunch of stuff for me to read *sigh*

Anyways thanks for the post Mekos glad to see your still around.

Okay Lucas/Pikachu is a great team for the reasons of Lucas being good in teams. Pikachu has a hard time killing, Lucas excels at killing. Pikachu can heal lucas almost the most out of most of the cast and can do this while attacking. Lucas does need to be a bit more agressive than campy however while playing with Pikachu. It's like learning to play a MU a different way. With each teammate you gotta find something that works for it to go good for you.

Also Lucas is a great teammate. Both the Mother boys excel greatly in them.

Spoiler

imho this is the only thing Lucas beats Ness in *sorry Yink x_x*

 

[HailCrest]

Lucas needs a strong offensive partner. A teamate who has alot of priority.

Sacrifice Lucas' manhood and team with Marth Y/N?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Mekos have you tried teaming with Kadaj?

 

[Mekos]

I tried. He is always teaming with someone else. I'm always too late. It sucks that there is no good ness player in our state.

Lucas and Marth have sick team combos. He works cuz like I said I'm the supporter and can control the ground well. Marth has a good air game and nice priority(offensive game). So they sync well.

Ugh I just wish I could find a good doubles partner around her. Its so frustrating.

 

[#HBC | J]

Pika discussion is old.

time to move on, ill write a summary soon but in the mean time. who should we do next?

Marth, Luigi, Ness, Kirby, GW all sound fun to me

rPSI if sorry for the double post and if this can be merged it would be great appreciated ^_^

Anyways, Ness and Lucas in teams. They have been contacted =P

I will say this is yet again another good team. probably a 9. Ill go into more detail later.

 

[O'chunks]

Anyways, Ness and Lucas in teams. They have been contacted =P

I will say this is yet again another good team. probably a 9. Ill go into more detail later.[/COLOR]

I agree with this. The highest I would give them (though not likely due to tier possition and matchups)is a 9.5 (but not likely ) 9 does sound solid for them though.

 

[Chuee]

The worst part about this team is that they have a lot of the same bad MU's.

 

[Uffe]

Don't let a low-tier character tell you that the matches are going to give you negative results. My brother uses a low-tier and we got forth out of about thirty players in an online doubles tournament. Sure, it was online, but still, we did a lot better than we had expected. Ness and Lucas don't have the same bad match-ups, they have similar ones. Both characters have subtle differences in abilities, don't play the same in playstyle, and they also have the same good counterpicks. Take your weaknesses and make them your strengths. A bit of advice for a Ness main. If your team is taken to a stage such as Yoshi's Island, Ness can use the ShyGuy's as firewood by setting them on fire.

Anyway, with Ness and Lucas, it's obvious what both characters can do to help each other out. For health, you've got PK Flash/Freeze, Fire, and Thunder. If Lucas is knocked off the stage with no recovery, Ness can use his PK Thunder to hit Lucas to bring him back. Ness has good KO potential, and Lucas has good set-ups for killing. If you and your teammate know how each other work, then you shouldn't have a problem getting far with Ness and Lucas. Don't let the idea of a stupid match-up get in the way of your mindset, or you won't see yourself getting far.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This team was made for each other IMO.

 

[#HBC | J]

Ness: Punish Gimmick
SWF Doubles Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=270134
Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 5/8
Punisher- 7
DPS- 6
Decent Offensive Support
Great Defensive Support
Moderate Interference
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)
Absorber (Defensive)

This is Ness' data from Dekar's thread. Ness excels for the same reason why Lucas excels in teams. They both are crazy good stock tanks. Lucas excels in ground punishment while Ness goes into the air to fight. For stock tanking terms in this team however that should be Lucas' role. Lucas should be punishing and healing since he has better ground smashes and heals more then Ness. However a cool trick when you notice either Lucas or Ness is in need of healing, they both can be healed if an oppurnity arises. Also the roles of Stock tank can be switched.

Lucas:
PK Fire: YES ~ 8% dmg - 5% heal
PK Freeze: YES ~ 10-18% dmg - 16-38% heal
PK Thunder: YES ~ 8% dmg - 13% heal (the tail, is ???)

Ness' healing data for Lucas' healing options thanks to Yink's thread.

I'll get Lucas' when I get my laptop back. I have the data but I don't recall this off the top of my head.

Anyways they both have the same good stages. I would suggest sticking together and not letting either Ness or Lucas left alone. I've got more but i gotta go so lol consider this like part 1 atm. ill edit this if no one else has posted.

 

[abhishekh]

Title should be changed to, "Brother from another Mother"

Just sayin'

 

[Mekos]

Best team in the whole game hands down!! Wait till me and Fow get a chance to go to a tourney!!!

And Jbandit u are correct. That is how we play. Also there is some cool tricks that I made up. One is called PikaFireWall . Lucas is on the ground while ness jumps above him. They both pikafire. With correct timing they hit each other. Lucas can then heal from that but there is better options to do. lolol this team rocks!

 

[Yink]

Just to clarify for you J, The tail of PKT does around 1 or 2% damage, and about 2-3% heal (I'm pretty sure, I might have to go look it up again).

This teams is very obnoxious. The people you face can't leave Ness and Lucas alone for a second, especially if it's on a stage that has corners and places for Ness' PKF to ignite.

The best thing I've seen so far is, I saw a Ness x Lucas team just hit Brinstar with Ness' PKF, Lucas ate it up, then Ness did another PKF and Lucas reflected it and Ness ate it up. Things like this will make sure no one will die. As said, Lucas is good on the ground where Ness compliments him by being good in the Air. Find some nasty setups. FAE and I did one awhile ago where it went:

Ness uthrow > Lucas footstool > Ness dtilt > Lucas dtilt. It's a lock. I don't think you can get out of it, FAE just fsmashed after enough damage went by.

 

[#HBC | J]

Best team in the whole game hands down!! Wait till me and Fow get a chance to go to a tourney!!!

And Jbandit u are correct. That is how we play. Also there is some cool tricks that I made up. One is called PikaFireWall . Lucas is on the ground while ness jumps above him. They both pikafire. With correct timing they hit each other. Lucas can then heal from that but there is better options to do. lolol this team rocks!

Oh wow that sounds really good ;O Yeeeea go team with FOW. Use this best LT team to **** NC.

Just to clarify for you J, The tail of PKT does around 1 or 2% damage, and about 2-3% heal (I'm pretty sure, I might have to go look it up again).

This teams is very obnoxious. The people you face can't leave Ness and Lucas alone for a second, especially if it's on a stage that has corners and places for Ness' PKF to ignite.

The best thing I've seen so far is, I saw a Ness x Lucas team just hit Brinstar with Ness' PKF, Lucas ate it up, then Ness did another PKF and Lucas reflected it and Ness ate it up. Things like this will make sure no one will die. As said, Lucas is good on the ground where Ness compliments him by being good in the Air. Find some nasty setups. FAE and I did one awhile ago where it went:

Ness uthrow > Lucas footstool > Ness dtilt > Lucas dtilt. It's a lock. I don't think you can get out of it, FAE just fsmashed after enough damage went by.

Thank you very much Yink for the Tail data. Remember trying to get the tail data for Lucas' healing? Dx

Yea leaving these two alone = them gaining health and as you said in aim, Dtilt to refresh their moves.

Also that Dtilt lock is broken as heck. O_O 2v1 they **** >;3 healing and deadly set ups to smashes from Lucas or Ness' Bthrow.

Btw just to make tell, PKFr and PKFL are the best healing options for this team unless you can find a way to use Ness' PKF.

This team has alot of insane tricks an ATs that can help them do better. This team is the best LT team that is actually tournament viable to win. The worst Nightmare scenario is Ness being offstage viable to be Metagimped and Lucas is onstage with two opponents by himself. Overall the team is a 9 for each other.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

J, FOW isn't NC. XD

 

[ZMan]

double pkt in a 2v1 situation is painfully annoying to get around.

 

[#HBC | J]

omg wow fail on my part x_x well still team with him and then drive/fly to NC and **** there.

And yea PKT is an aggravating thing to get around when there are two of them. ;O

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I always partner with my neighbor EVERYWHERE. He plays Fox.

First of all, he gives me a great healing option with his fast lasers. Not as good as ZSS Dsmash or Pika's Thunder, but still good.

Second off, Fox is good at wracking up damage with his dair combos.

Third of all, it's really reliable to have two finishers. Me with my USmash-FSmash, and him with his incredible USmash.

I like him as a dubz partner. Granted, I never tried any other characters, but that's how it works out with me.

 

[Neon Ness]

I am confused... I thought we were doing Ness, not Fox

Anyway, some stuff I remember. Haven't teamed with another Mother player in like 2 years though so it could be wrong/irrelevant

• Mutual Magnet healing
• Helping teammate recover with PKT
• Double PKT pressure offstage

I've heard of a strategy where Lucas stays behind his partner and just launches PK Freeze while the teammate takes the front. Don't know how well it would work with Ness.

There's also a funny thing you can do where Lucas freezes his opponent offstage. Once they're in an ice block, if Ness releases PSI Magnet near them right afterwards, the wind will cause the frozen opponent to fall straight down instead of popping them upward like usual. If they don't break out fast enough it could put them in a bad position, it's just hard to pull off in a real match. There's a video demonstration of it somewhere.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yea we are one Ness, but thanks for the Input on Fox though ^_^.

Wow Neon, that PKFr->PSIM windbox sounds incredibly funny. Double PKT pressure when someone is offstage is a very good thing and helping the other teammate recover with PKT is a good thing as well. Mutual Magnet healing is also still used. So your input isn't wrong/irrelevant at all ;D

 

[Mekos]

Yeah dats the problem. Me and Fow live on opposite sides of the US. We just have to settle for dominating AiB for now .

I'll travel to a tourney over in Vegas sometime.

 

[#HBC | J]

So is everyone cool on this team? 9/10 overall?

Ill get to work on the summary and pick out the next team ^_^

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright i am working on the Ness summary but let's keep us rolling with a rather odd next team. Ice Climbers are the next team. I wanna show this vid NL showed me how this team is really good, NL is the ICs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tpGuhkE8ts

Dekar's Thread Data:

****Ice Climbers:
Carry- 1
Stock Tank- 1
Punisher- 1
DPS- 1
Large Interference issues
Energy Projectile (DPS)


****ICs are NOT known for being good in doubles, they are absolutely unviable, to the point where Lain won't even use them in serious doubles sets.

Let the discussion begin~

 

[DeLux]

To start, IC's in teams are pretty unviable. I'd switch to one of my much worse secondaries before I played a doubles set with my main.

In doubles, Nana guarding is a serious problem. When separated, SoPo is pretty terrible. That means the responsibility of keeping track of Nana would have to extend to my teammate during match play as well. That's a burden that most players aren't used to and might be disruptive in game play.

The punishing power of the IC, the infinite chain grab, is easily interrupted by teammates. It also is a fairly time consuming move. Given that Lucas has a pretty terrible grab game, which is probably the easiest way to buy time for your partner to cg, the viability of pulling a free chain is relatively low. Outside of that, IC's don't really have any strong finishers imo.

Teammate support would be limited as well. None of the projectiles are really suited as an aid move since IB slides along the ground and does less damage the further away they are. Blizzard is a midrange move. I guess the best bet would be to have Lucas tank. Heal with desync blizzard. And then put your team's hopes on a character that's for all intensive purposes low tiered 1v1. If you play a team of MK's, you are pretty screwed.

 

[#HBC | J]

Actually there are some positives to this team. If you leave this team alone for just 1 second, Lucas can heal vast amount of health in such a small period of time. ICs are Lucas' fastest/most in the shortest amount of time. Even Sopo heals so much health. When it is just Sopo, Lucas can help him recover with PKT. In a 2v1 situation you wanna heal and then try and help the ICs get their dreaded CG. Almost about every team you would like to have Lucas stock tanking because he is a really good one with his unique aspect and ICs exploit this really well. As you saw in the video of NL and his partner they made it look at the end of the match Lucas was untouched. The ending of Lucas was 3 stocks and only 4% of damage done to him. That is remarkable tanking ability. RC was actually the other teams cp. o_o

Overall this team can actually be really scary because one mistake by either a.) leaving these two(three? ) alone can equal for the other team basically starting back at stock 1 on Lucas. b.) in a 2v1 situation the dreaded IC cg.

However neither of these two can handle a 1v2 situations at all. =/

and are who you are gonna have to look out for (oh great the two most common doubles characters ;_; )

I'm still thinking of a number to place on this team but atm it's gonna be above 5 for sure. Hmm.

Oh yea before I forget, Big stage = really good for this team. FD, RC, Norfair all sound good.

that's my input =P, this team can be good you just have too work at it as with every team. If done right this team can be a Playdate from Frozen Hell ^_^

 

[Sieguest]

I sorely dislike using the climbers in teams. True with Lucas you can potentially have Lucas stock tank by healing him and such. Provided your opponents give you that long to do it. If we're desynced to try and have one climber protect the other while we heal Lucas then if an opponent is on the other side, they run in, separate one of the climbers while the partner starts harassing Lucas to slow down saving them. Or we leave ourselves open to get hit in the middle of healing. Any character that has projectiles that explode or don't have targetboxes can pretty much interrupt the healing too when spaced well. Basically if the opposing team knows how to play aggressively then every time ICs start trying to heal Lucas it's going to end badly. The only time it'd be relatively safe to heal is if we get both members of the opposing team offstage for a while.

Past that it goes to pretty much what Lux said. The success of our CG depends on how long Lucas can keep the other teammate away from us. IBs can pretty much become a hassle for everyone, becoming more of a detriment than a help. Desyncing makes Nana an even bigger target so that probably won't happen much. And a relative lack of range doesn't do us any good when trying to stave off opposing teams from ganging up on Lucas.
The team could work but it'd take some serious compensation for where ICs fall short in teams. All they have to do is take out the climbers (and that's not exceedingly hard to do in teams) and it's over.

 

[DeLux]

Actually there are some positives to this team. If you leave this team alone for just 1 second, Lucas can heal vast amount of health in such a small period of time. ICs are Lucas' fastest/most in the shortest amount of time. Even Sopo heals so much health. When it is just Sopo, Lucas can help him recover with PKT. In a 2v1 situation you wanna heal and then try and help the ICs get their dreaded CG. Almost about every team you would like to have Lucas stock tanking because he is a really good one with his unique aspect and ICs exploit this really well. As you saw in the video of NL and his partner they made it look at the end of the match Lucas was untouched. The ending of Lucas was 3 stocks and only 4% of damage done to him. That is remarkable tanking ability. RC was actually the other teams cp. o_o

Overall this team can actually be really scary because one mistake by either a.) leaving these two(three? ) alone can equal for the other team basically starting back at stock 1 on Lucas. b.) in a 2v1 situation the dreaded IC cg.

However neither of these two can handle a 1v2 situations at all. =/

and are who you are gonna have to look out for (oh great the two most common doubles characters ;_; )

I'm still thinking of a number to place on this team but atm it's gonna be above 5 for sure. Hmm.

Oh yea before I forget, Big stage = really good for this team. FD, RC, Norfair all sound good.

that's my input =P, this team can be good you just have too work at it as with every team. If done right this team can be a Playdate from Frozen Hell ^_^

A. The DDD and the DK were both pretty bad in the video, from what I saw. B. The level selection may be an issue. Most mains won't play Norfair or RC with IC's, or at least rarely do and aren't used to them. Nana separation is a huge issue on the Cruise especially because she often just gets confused and kills herself. C. The healing might not ever happen because the IC's don't have the moves with enough immediate knock back to buy you those precious seconds to heal. We'd have to either 1. get lucky and connect with a smash or 2. Grab and smash away. In either situation, we'd have to do it in the window when Lucas has freed himself from engaging his opponent. It sounds like a situation where you'd sacrifice an IC cg kill to heal Lucas.

 

[#HBC | J]

First off thanks for giving input so far you two it is appreciated alot!! ;D Especially since they are big posts with alot of info ^_^

Hmm idk about the DDD or DK because NL was in the video and probably knows them better. Oh woow that's horrid with Nana killing herself for being confused ;_;! Healing i could see being an issue however instead of either ICs or Lucas going to gimp that is when the oppurtune time to heal. And seeing as when an oppurtunity arises is when you use it. Just randomly healing is never a good idea.

Also in the sense of choosing wether to cg or heal in a 2v1 oppurtunity is like this. If Lucas is near 80%+ that is a moment to heal however any other time you would wanna try and go for the CG. With this just one tab of the B button can heal Lucas 70-80% (iirc) with both of the climbers and with just sopo it's around 40% (;S Sorry I lost my chart of healing data when my laptop broke T~T) But yes it seems like it would be 1 or the other. CG or Heal, most likely it would be a situational thing.

Also which stages would the ICs be comfortable on in teams? =D

Sorry if I got my input wrong ^^"

Spoiler

tends to do that alot lol

 

[ZMan]

the lucas-ics team shouldn't even be a discussion. ics are horrible in teams and any benefit that comes with this team can be substituted with a better, VIABLE teammate

0/10

 

[#HBC | J]

Well we are discussing Lucas/ICs atm. Anyways they do stink as a team and the only really good factor is being able to heal vast amounts in such a short amount of time.

However it's a changeup from the 9's and 10's we've been discussing. IDK this team's not a 0.

But defienetly not th best.

 

[~Nasty~]

I feel like the vid in the OP doesn't quite descirbe what a normal match looks like w/ a Lucas/IC's team. This match here shows how difficult it is and what is required of both players. Lucas really needs to look out for Nana and baby sit her. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpwcegmYjog

Lucas can't use PKT to save Nana bc she's most likely not gonna be DIing towards the stage and it'll only gimp her, haha. He'd have to use Uair or Fair and then Popo is gonna have to be there to sync her w/ him.
I'd say this isn't a bad team but it's def not the greatest for Lucas. I'd give it a 6/10.

 

[#HBC | J]

thanks Nasty for the vid. I liked the song in the background ;o

anyways 6/10 does sound about right for this team. Not horrid but not anywhere near the best. That video does show more of a realistic side to it.

ill add both vids to the video bank as soon as i can.

Thanks for input Nasty ;D

 

[DeLux]

If I could rate it using your system, I'd have to say that the team is mediocre at best by definition. 5 would be appropriate.

Pros: Speed Healing
Cons: Nana Guarding. It actually is even harder for Nana guarding for a teammate because he can hit Nana as well as save her.

Viable Stage? Most starters I feel wouldn't be too terrible. Although don't quote me. Again, I would never play IC's in doubles. Too much of a burden to place on my teammate. I'd rather go G&W or Ness from my pool of seconds.

 

[#HBC | J]

Hmm it seems we have gotten what we can out of this team thanks for those who inputted ^_^. I'll get to work on the summary then i am gonna get the next one started. random spazzing don't read lol

Spoiler

yayayayayayay we finished the last two surprisingly quick

Ness Summary is up ;D, ICs number is set at 5, and Mr. Game&Watch is the next discussion and ill get them in here =P

 

[Galeon]

My perm partner's an IC main. That's one of our sloppier vids, plenty of vids when our team firmly hands out the ****. Like most heal-based teams, it's based on momentum. I ftilt my opponent away? I run over to my partner for a nice 92% reward. And since groudned Blizzard hits on both sides, it's possible to heal while having a respectable hitbox on the other end to catch anyone approaching (for a smaller heal).

There's also some synergy. Lucas is really good at controlling space so against chars taht arent MK/Snake, partners have a really tough time getting by Lucas to save their partner from IC grabs.

IC's can hobble chars into Lucas's dtilt lock, making it the fastest jab lock setup in the game (outside of Ganon, i guess >_> ). Lucas can set up grabs for IC's with his dair.

If Lucas does get a lock, IC's are really good at keeping people from interrupting with blizzard and uair.

The team is really hard to use effectively though since it needs good teamwork to keep all 3 of u together. Need to be able to control the opponents well enough to decide when you want everyone together, when you want them as far as possible to stop interruptions and keeping IC's far enough to be safe while close enough to heal. To make it work, you gotta play Lucas as both the carry and the stock tank which sounds awkward but the team makes it work.

I'd put IC's as one of Lucas's best possible partners. Its just not as obvious as the others.

 

[#HBC | J]

If I could quote your signature i'd put that in the OP summary as well xD I love it Galeon

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Lucas/ICs seem controversial however....hm

Gimme a bit i gotta mull this over a bit for the summary but thank you very much Galeon! ^_^

 

[DeLux]

Some of Galeon's video on YT were pretty inspiring. Especially the ones against known good players ie co18 match.

 

[A2ZOMG]

k if you want G&W in teams, I mean it's hard to go wrong with that since his stuff just happens to be designed really well for the purpose of teams.

From G&W's perspective...he has better partners who can play to his advantages more easily. Lucas might enjoy some of G&W's D-throw setup shenanigans if the opponent drops towards Lucas since that's a D-tilt setup. Lucas can fill G&W's Bucket pretty quickly if done right. The main problem with this team is that Lucas isn't very good at getting grabs safely, which is a problem for G&W since he REALLY appreciates teammates who are good at getting grabs, and that Lucas's throws for the most part aren't all that useful due to being slow, not killing soon enough, not setting up into much...

All in all most of the teams advantages just come from general stuff that makes G&W good in teams, which you should already know like his KO potential, U-air (for the purpose of teammate momentum canceling), Bucket, high damage, D-throw, Up-B. Otherwise I wouldn't say that Lucas and G&W have particularly good synergy. Both characters the way I see it appreciate having a partner who can help create setups, which both of them, particularly Lucas are fairly weak at.