Lucina looked kinda good...

[LIQUID12A]

Of course...

But again, in high level matches, I think Marth would be the more viable character (they are BOTH really viable though). Marth's tipper Fsmash killed Palutena at 50%

oh so that thing kills all gods not just SATANIC coughocugh ones

Daaaaaamn, that's a low kill % O_o

 

[Satan-]

oh so that thing kills all gods not just SATANIC coughocugh ones

Daaaaaamn, that's a low kill % O_o

Who said anything about killing the Satanic?

Yeah I was really surprised. It happened on Zero's stream.

 

[HdTyvek]

Of course...

But again, in high level matches, I think Marth would be the more viable character (they are BOTH really viable though). Marth's tipper Fsmash killed Palutena at 50%

interesting. i will play both anyway cause marth has been my guy sense melee, and lucina is my girl.

how floaty is palutena? stage blast zones? i havent seen or heard of anyone dying at 50% yet

 

[Satan-]

interesting. i will play both anyway cause marth has been my guy sense melee, and lucina is my girl.

how floaty is palutena? stage blast zones? i havent seen or heard of anyone dying at 50% yet

I don't know how floaty she is. If we go by what Zipzo said then she's supposed to be heavy (?). I wouldn't go by that though... Honestly I don't know.

Blast zones were like they always are, huge.

She died at 70% but was hit when she was at 51%... I like to call that a 50% death since she was hit while at 50%, maybe people call it something else... Have you heard about Marth KO'ing at 70? That's probably it...

 

[LIQUID12A]

Who said anything about killing the Satanic?

Yeah I was really surprised. It happened on Zero's stream.

Grima is satanic but you would know that now wouldn't you

Oh well. At least it's not too different.

 

[HdTyvek]

i know marth's counter has killed at 75% so that makes more sense

 

[Aenglaan]

Given how Marth was significantly nerfed and is harder to play than ever, I feel Lucina has a huge advantage. Removing the spacing requirement for maximum damage on a character built for spacing makes her very accessible. This means the player doesn't need to always take into account the other player's distance from them.

I may still wish that she had her own, unique moveset, but she's certainly going to fare better than Roy, and may even be better at somethings than Marth.

 

[HdTyvek]

Given how Marth was significantly nerfed and is harder to play than ever, I feel Lucina has a huge advantage. Removing the spacing requirement for maximum damage on a character built for spacing makes her very accessible. This means the player doesn't need to always take into account the other player's distance from them.

I may still wish that she had her own, unique moveset, but she's certainly going to fare better than Roy, and may even be better at somethings than Marth.

I agree, while i believe there was plenty of ideas they could have taken from Awakening to give her a unique moveset, im just glad she made it into the game at all.

Most people believe that removing the spacing factor from marth makes lucina strong for low level play but weak for high level, she seemed to be pretty strong from what game play ive seen. granted its only day 2, i like the way she looks. i think she will be solid pick!

 

[Emblem Lord]

At the pinnacle of play Marth will be superior simply due to damage and ability to push people around. Tipper not only grants more damage, but also does more shield damage AND shield pushback making him safer as well. So a perfect Tipper Fair is gonna be alot safer than a spaced out fair from Lucina. same for all their moves sans special attacks.

At the highest level Marth will indeed have the edge. This is assuming their frame data is the same and it seems like it is.

 

[3DSplayer]

Lucina does look amazing to play as. Her counter is so great!

 

[PsychoSy]

I still have high hopes for Lucina being Tourney viable but other than that she looks awesome to play as.

 

[WizKick]

I do think she looks really awesome. She's a definite contender for my main right now!

 

[Profanity]

Lucins is actually seeming relatively mediocre to me and I'm upset about it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In a game such as this..impossible. I predict both warriors of the hero blood will end up top of mid tier or lower end of high tier. Their tools are too solid.

Comboability seems to be the only real issue im seeing.

 

[HdTyvek]

In a game such as this..impossible. I predict both warriors of the hero blood will end up top of mid tier or lower end of high tier. Their tools are too solid.

Comboability seems to be the only real issue im seeing.

it looked like to me that she has the problem on melee marth, where at high percents she has a harder time. didnt get to see how well low percents was going because the people playing her are still getting used to the game. high mid to low high tier is fine with me, and high enough to play in tournaments!

 

[HdTyvek]

Lucins is actually seeming relatively mediocre to me and I'm upset about it.

what did you see being the problem?

 

[Qikz]

Having played Marth in melee for a few years and now had this game for 3 days playing pretty much nothing but Marth and Lucina I personally think Lucina is better. She feels "faster" than Marth and although I can't really tell if she is or not it feels a lot better not having to rely on tippers purely due to Marths nerfed range.

 

[Profanity]

Firstly, as I understand it, she's NOT faster than Marth. Thinking she is is seeming like one of those wishful thinking things that occur with new games and revisions. She's identical to Marth but lacks a tipper. That's all. So right out of the gate you can unfortunately project her to be an inferior Marth.

Moving on, their grabs are much less threatening. Used to be you could win a matchup based solely on Marth's grab. Now, your best choice at percents as low as 20 is to hope to try and gimp them offstage.

Shield pressure and walling will also be worse for them after losing double fair. Dash dancing still isn't back. All these things including grabs being less scarey to the point of near irrelevance fight their approach diversity. You probably won't even be getting anything great from a crossup nair.

All that's bad enough, but it's also seeming like many new characters have good zoning tools amd range, and some old characters are better at zoning now too.

Marth's old areas of excellence are reduced and he's got little to nothing new to show for it. Lucina is identical, but lacks the tipper mechanic Marth can use to get earlier kills which will be important.

 

[HdTyvek]

sure she "lacks" tipper, but her damage thoughout the blade isnt that much lower than marths tipper.

 

[Satan-]

sure she "lacks" tipper, but her damage thoughout the blade isnt that much lower than marths tipper.

Check your facts before making statements.

http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-moveset-data-analysis-thread.367457/
(Literally the thread right under this one)

Her Fsmash does 14% uncharged and 20% full charged.
Marth's tipper Fsmash does 19-20% uncharged and I don't know how much full charged.

Lucina's fair does 8%
Marth's tipper fair does 12% (?)

In the thread I linked, it explicitly says that on average, Lucina's moves do 1-2% more damage than Marth's untipped hits (check post #13)

I want Lucina to be good too but come on...

 

[Profanity]

It's not like I want her to be bad. Quite the contrary. I'm just being realistic.

Anyway take it for what it is, it's still early, but what I've seen is pretty convincing.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I can see Lucina being more effective against faster opponents due to the difficulty of landing tippers against them as Marth. Against larger, slower characters, where tippers are easier to land, I expect Marth to have the upper hand.
It really does come down to whether or not Marth players can land tippers enough to justify using him instead. Picking Marth means trading reliability for higher potential, which both raises his skillcap and reward if played optimally - but higher potential power does not mean a great deal if that potential proves too difficult to tap in to.

 

[Profanity]

A higher skill ceiling and greater reward directly translates to a better character.

If Lucina has nothing to offer that is unique, and in fact is missing something Marth has, it's pretty cut and dry.

I wish she had something, anything, that could conceivably help her out. Maybe there's something hidden in there, but so far it seems there isn't.

 

[Wintropy]

Isn't it enough to just like the character and enjoy playing as her? ;P

 

[LIQUID12A]

Isn't it enough to just like the character and enjoy playing as her? ;P

People are demanding, yo.

This is exactly my thought on her. She's in, who cares unless you go to tournaments and such?

 

[Profanity]

Sure. Once in a while, why not. If she's fun.

There may not be enough fun in using her, though, if she's awful.

 

[Wintropy]

Sure. Once in a while, why not. If she's fun.

There may not be enough fun in using her, though, if she's awful.

"Awful" is a subjective term, though. I mean, if you want to quantify her every last finite details and determine whether or not she's worth playing from that alone, by all means, go ahead. More power to ya.

I just think it's worth mentioning that some people like to play their favourite characters because they're their favourite characters. ;P

 

[Gawain]

I can see Lucina being more effective against faster opponents due to the difficulty of landing tippers against them as Marth. Against larger, slower characters, where tippers are easier to land, I expect Marth to have the upper hand.
It really does come down to whether or not Marth players can land tippers enough to justify using him instead. Picking Marth means trading reliability for higher potential, which both raises his skillcap and reward if played optimally - but higher potential power does not mean a great deal if that potential proves too difficult to tap in to.

If Marth players were able to tipper Fox's and Falcon's in melee, there is nothing in Smash 4 they will have trouble doing the same to.

 

[Profanity]

No. It's not subjective at all. Especially not in Lucin

Nor do I agree that it's worth mentioning that. That's like saying the sky is blue. Obviously casual fans who's only criteria is "play x character because I like them" will play her and there's zero wrong with that. In fact it's great! More power to them.

But, that's always the case and is no kind of counterpoint to character analysis. In fact, it's still a good idea for those dedicated fans to know anything and everything they can about her.

 

[Wintropy]

No. It's not subjective at all. Especially not in Lucin

If you're going to quantify every example of moves and skills, then I'd sure like you to clarify exactly what the benchmark standard for "good" and "awful" is. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I think you and I have vastly different interpretations of what qualifies as a well-made character, m'darling. ;3

Nor do I agree that it's worth mentioning that. That's like saying the sky is blue. Obviously casual fans who's only criteria is "play x character because I like them" will play her and there's zero wrong with that. In fact it's great! More power to them.

I'm going to take it at face value that you don't intend to use the word "casual" as a perjorative statement. That being said, I would strongly suggest to you that you be careful about bandying that kind of terminology about the place. It suggests that "competitive" play is somehow superior to "casual" play and comes across as grossly condescending, which I'm pretty sure was not the intended essence of your commentary. I just don't appreciate words like "awful" and "casual" being thrown about without much apparent forethought. To me, it suggests sentiments of arrogance and immaturity and doesn't help to develop any sort of cogent debate whatsoever.

But, that's always the case and is no kind of counterpoint to character analysis. In fact, it's still a good idea for those dedicated fans to know anything and everything they can about her.

I'm just gonna point out that I don't have any issue with people engaging in character analysis. If you somehow inferred that from my statement, then I apologise, because I don't actively object to it at all.

My issue is when the mentality develops to suggest that character analyses represent the objective value of a character's worth. If you want to say Lucina is inferior to Marth because of XYZ, then that's cool, but don't expect others to adopt such quantifications as the absolute authority on whether or not they should play a character. You can still play characters that are supposedly inferior to other characters and be able to triumph over players who choose to pick the supposedly superior players. At the end of the day, it comes down to skill just as much as it does understanding how a character works. To say that Marth is objectively the better choice and that Lucina is necessarily terrible by comparison and therefore not worth playing, as seems to be the general topic of conversation around here - that just doesn't make any sense to me.

But then again, I'm not looking to vindicate my opinions either way. I'm just saying, it's good to approach things with an open mind and understand that some people like to consider that, just because a character doesn't conform to your absolute standards, doesn't mean they aren't worth playing.

To each their own, m'darling, to each their own~ <3

EDIT: Also, if you're going to engage in debate with somebody, please use the quote function. It makes it a lot easier to understand whom you're referring to and what you're responding to in question.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wherever one falls on the tier list the other will be right behind them. I dont think lucina is faster i just think t hat since people know she has no tipper they arent stressing her spacing as much.

which is a mistake btw

 

[Profanity]

I stopped reading your post when you implied you gad difficulty discerning the manner in which I used the word casual.

I mean I explicitly said it was great there are casual players. There's not much gray area there. Some people play games casually. I'm not one of the people that thinks that's a bad thing.

There's no debate occuring here. There's none to be had.

And, no. I'm not using the quote feature. Same reason I occasionally don't correct typographical errors like my random periods or carriages. I post from my phone and it's too tedious to bother. You'll adjust, darling. Or you can block me, I don't mind that either.

Edit: Wow, I did finish reading your post and it's been an unpleasant waste of my time. Watch this.

"Your insight's fine, Prof. I don't have to agree with it, though."

That's what you said, in a nutshell. To which I now respond: 'Kay.

 

[Gawain]

Wherever one falls on the tier list the other will be right behind them. I dont think lucina is faster i just think t hat since people know she has no tipper they arent stressing her spacing as much.

which is a mistake btw

This guy knows what's up. Marth's moveset itself is created around the purpose of keeping people within a certain space. It's why all his moves have this kind of "pushing" feeling to them. The tip function for Marth is what makes the moveset excel. Not having the tip does not make the moveset better at being close range. It's still ideal to use it's maximum range.

 

[LIQUID12A]

If you're going to quantify every example of moves and skills, then I'd sure like you to clarify exactly what the benchmark standard for "good" and "awful" is. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I think you and I have vastly different interpretations of what qualifies as a well-made character, m'darling. ;3

-blah blah blah stuff-

To each their own, m'darling, to each their own~ <3

i smell subtle flirting here

Wow, I did finish reading your post and it's been an unpleasant waste of my time.

A shame arguments have to boil down to jabs and detracting the other party in the debate. I'm not taking sides, I'm merely having my say.

Carry on.

 

[Gawain]

so if this is the case it comes down to preference on who to play

Well it's always a matter of preference. But Marth is a straight upgrade, unless Lucina has some obscure bizarre ability that Marth does not, and that actually makes a difference.

 

[Profanity]

... what debate? Did I miss something? Seriously. Is interjecting that "people don't all care how effective a character objectively is" something that passes for debate these days?

As for needling each other, I don't like passive aggression or nonsense. If you disagree with me but are civil, and logical, that's great. No problem. If you start winking at me, slinging platitudes and calling me darling, that's something altogether different.

Especially if you're trying to tell me I'm being inconsiderate of other's viewpoints when the opposite is true.

 

[Fex13]

i hope both marth and luci have good combo abilities...but i dont doubt it since marth has always been a combo monster

 

[Wintropy]

i smell subtle flirting hereCarry on.

Subtle? I must learn to improve in that case!

And, no. I'm not using the quote feature. Same reason I occasionally don't correct typographical errors like my random periods or carriages. I post from my phone and it's too tedious to bother. You'll adjust, darling. Or you can block me, I don't mind that either.

I didn't realise that. My bad! >w<;;

 

[Profanity]

No biggie.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

A higher skill ceiling and greater reward directly translates to a better character.

It's no question that an optimally played Marth will be better than an optimally played Lucina. I just mean to say that, in some matchups, there is potential for her reliability to offset her lack of the power that Marth's tipper has. Marth's tipper is harder to land than it once was, which may result in the decision of whether to play Lucina or Marth against character X being a deeper one than "Marth, because he's stronger".
I'm not going off proper evidence here; I'm just speaking hypothetically. I would just be disappointed to see the majority write Lucina off as an inferior Marth without extensive analysis. I don't think it's a stretch to think that she may have better matchups than Marth against particular characters.