Marth Changes in new Patch

[Moydow]

Also, does Fair to Fair or Fair to Uair work in a short hop? If you need to be frame perfect slow down the time in training

Unchanged, doesn't work

 

[PurpleYessir]

Dair seems the same. Where are the frame data nerds at? We need you!

 

[Vipermoon]

Unchanged, doesn't work

Awwww

Now someone try all the autocancels plz...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Willing to bet money not a damn thing was changed and it's all placebo effects.

Sticking to that mindset till we have frame data.

 

[PurpleYessir]

Willing to bet money not a damn thing was changed and it's all placebo effects.

Sticking to that mindset till we have frame data.

I feel you. I want to believe though. Even a little something will be awesome.

 

[Locuan]

Sticking to that mindset till we have frame data.

Same here, waiting for the frame data. Once Dantarion's data is out, I'll be able to compare it with what I have compiled for 1.04 and see if there are any differences.

 

[Nike.]

Lylat's ledges no longer stuff your recovery. You can now ride up them like any other wall. However, it is kinda janky.

I recommend everyone spend a few minutes there using upb to grab the ledge til they get used to it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So yeah im messing with him and he feels the same.

I think you are all lying to yourselves. Dancing Blade seems alot more consistent but aside from that, he is the same imo. His spike also looks a bit easier to spike with.

rofl

 

[Langston777]

dw guys, let's just wait for the post-patch patch

 

[Umby]

Neutral Air

 

[fox67890]

So, landing lag on fair (if not autocanceled) and nair *seem *to be the same for those who played with marth recently?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It's the same.

 

[Illuminado]

Same here, waiting for the frame data. Once Dantarion's data is out, I'll be able to compare it with what I have compiled for 1.04 and see if there are any differences.

Where will he release that stuff? I'd be interested to see it too. Like will there be a thread in general/competitive etc?

 

[Locuan]

Where will he release that stuff? I'd be interested to see it too. Like will there be a thread in general/competitive etc?

The last time he made a post about it if I'm not mistaken. He also has a website where he compiles the information.

 

[Illuminado]

I just found something a little neat. The A+B smash looks nice for Marth in that you can do a pivot and start charging the f smash, but you actually slide away whilst charging (not at all dissimilar to that old wave dash hype). Were you able to do this before? Its more likely that this control change makes it far easier to pull off without accidentally tilting.

 

[Quickhero]

Just started testing. If nothing besides the d-air being easier to spike and DB buff is true, I'll still be grateful. Even a more consistent DB really helps his combo game. :3

 

[Illuminado]

Just started testing. If nothing besides the d-air being easier to spike and DB buff is true, I'll still be grateful. Even a more consistent DB really helps his combo game. :3

Tell me if you get this too but side variation DB buff is true. Registering as a true combo for four hits on Sheik at 0% on current patch, whereas old patch (albeit im having to test it on a 3ds and not another wii u) doesn't four hit true combo until 38% (i.e, first 3 combo then Sheik has time to shield when she hits the floor before fourth swing).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Testing Dancing Blade like crazy.

The move makes sense now. It true combos vs majority of the cast from my testing even at 0. Even vs chars like Greninja. Hitstun seems higher and the falchion seems to push them the opponent where they need to be for the combo. Also..kill confirms are a thing with this move. Been doing registered training mode combos that end in death starting around 100% but its character dependent. DB fourth up hit seems very consistent for kills, but forward hit should work if they DI bad. Third down b hit sets up for rapid stabs well thanks to more hitstun, but I want to test further. Could give Marcina a very strong and consistent punish. At higher percents it works pretty flawlessly though.

Most reliable combo for a kill I have found is forward b, up b, side b, up b. No rage or DI of course. Starts working around 100 to 110 depending on the opponent.

Pretty sure this is Marths only change. Could be wrong, but nothing else feels different.

 

[Quickhero]

Yeah, after testing, the DB change and d-air being a bit easier to spike was all I noticed. Let's all use the DB change to our advantage! :D @ Emblem Lord already has ideas on how to utilize this buff. I hope we discover more ways to utilize it!

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay so just to make sure...nothing autocancels earlier? Not even a little bit? Or even a better pre-hitbox AC? I don't have access to smash

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, after testing, the DB change and d-air being a bit easier to spike was all I noticed. Let's all use the DB change to our advantage! :D @ Emblem Lord already has ideas on how to utilize this buff. Let's keep discovering more.

My high level strat with this buff is to actually be scary during footsies and have a functional tool instead of blocking unsafe stuff all day and never getting any scary punishes.

 

[PurpleYessir]

I tried to DB a Fox post patch, and they can still shield after the 3rd hit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Online or offline

 

[PurpleYessir]

Online or offline

Online.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Online.

>_>

Get out

^_^

 

[Quickhero]

Online.

It's likely input delay or just flat out lag, then. Try it offline. :3

 

[Solutionme]

What I've noticed so far:
-Better spike hitbox on his Dair
-Better dancing blade combo
-Stronger follow-up game out of down throw via bair at lower percents, uair at higher percents and fair for jukes, which all tip consistently for me and it registers as a true combo in training.
-Possibly either more range or better hitboxes
-possible ken combo again, but my set-up was kind of janky since i slipped the pikachu off the ledge with a fair and spiked with dair but it did not register as a true combo, so that is up to debate.

Obviously not much in the way of DI and if there was, it is a predictable pattern, but to me it seems Marth got proper buffs since I think Sakurai mostly wanted us to rely on dancing blade for high damage punishes and the tips to zone away opponents or KO them very early. At least that is what it seems to be when i went into training mode.

 

[Vipermoon]

What I've noticed so far:
-Better spike hitbox on his Dair
-Better dancing blade combo
-Stronger follow-up game out of down throw via bair at lower percents, uair at higher percents and fair for jukes, which all tip consistently for me and it registers as a true combo in training.
-Possibly either more range or better hitboxes
-possible ken combo again, but my set-up was kind of janky since i slipped the pikachu off the ledge with a fair and spiked with dair but it did not register as a true combo, so that is up to debate.

Obviously not much in the way of DI and if there was, it is a predictable pattern, but to me it seems Marth got proper buffs since I think Sakurai mostly wanted us to rely on dancing blade for high damage punishes and the tips to zone away opponents or KO them very early. At least that is what it seems to be when i went into training mode.

I don't get the Dair thing. Dair spike is frame 11 only, that is why it is hard to get. So unless it is no longer only frame 11 then I don't understand how the Dair spike could be easier.

It looked to me from streams and videos that Marth has just as much end lag after Dthrow than before. That was the only thing preventing Dthrow from comboing. So idk if it changed.

No Ken combo. I'm out of state without my Wii U at the moment but I know without trying it that Fair has too much end lag and Dair has too much start up. They didn't decrease Fair end lag because if they did double Fair or Fair to Uair would work in a short hop. It still doesn't. Fair to Fair barely combos so Fair to Dair is definitely not one.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

^^^

Dair Spike could be improved by increasing the Meteor Hitbox. It needs to be BOTH Frame 11 and hit directly below to Spike. Now there might be a little more leeway? dunno.

Anyways, confirming there was no Range increase on grounded moves. Only move that might be different hitbox is F-air.

 

[Vipermoon]

^^^

Dair Spike could be improved by increasing the Meteor Hitbox. It needs to be BOTH Frame 11 and hit directly below to Spike. Now there might be a little more leeway? dunno.

Anyways, confirming there was no Range increase on grounded moves. Only move that might be different hitbox is F-air.

Yeah I figured, but i feel like it wouldn't make a difference. Because if Dair spike is out of range another part of Dair will hit you on a different frame

 

[Langston777]

^see the thing about that is, if the hitboxes were changed, i'd be missing tippers

also, characters like TL and Kirby are still floating out of either 2nd or 3rd hit of DB combos. One of my biggest beefs with the Jiggly puff match up is that i can't rely on dancing blade. I don't know, i'm still not feeling any changes. ill have to grab my 3ds again and compare, i feel like with DI dancing blade won't be any more useful than it was before even if it was upgraded a bit.

 

[Radirgy]

Most notable thing I have found playing Marth today is that sword dance is more consistant in trapping opponents, before the only one that was really reliable was the upward dance but forward actually works now, I tested this both online and against the people at my universities gaming league. That's the one thing I'm certain has been buffed, everything else is up to debate, I think the control addition of A+B to smash helps Marth, helped me out because I now feel like I can put my c-stick to tilts and not lose out because of it (or at least I won't losing out once I stop thinking c-stick is smash).

 

[Emblem Lord]

i mean..either way its clear to me this character was not intended to be a threat. so im not using him anymore competitively.

*shrug

 

[Quickhero]

i mean..either way its clear to me this character was not intended to be a threat. so im not using him anymore competitively.

*shrug

You stated yourself that a DB buff was all you thought should happen and it happened. I think Sakurai is just taking a minimalist approach (rightfully so and imo the appropriate way for a fighting game) so he's buffing/nerfing a good portion of the cast in seemingly minor ways. Honestly Marth got a good buff and on paper he's a bigger threat than he was before the patch.

Quit playing Marth in tournaments if you want to, but don't say that Sakurai is intending Marth to be unviable or something because that's clearly false, ESPECIALLY when you got exactly the buff you wanted.

 

[Illuminado]

Second thing I've found. Up Smash appears to K.O at earlier percents on the sour spot (i.e, from standing next to opponent). On Sheik again (as i was doing DB testing) by comparison I saw a KO change from 110% to 104%. Again, testing between 3DS and Wii U versions (I know Blast zone differences exist) just wondered if it would cover this difference here? Additionally, would this imply earlier KO percents for tipper hits? Haven't actually got round to testing this yet.

 

[Solutionme]

Yeah

I don't get the Dair thing. Dair spike is frame 11 only, that is why it is hard to get. So unless it is no longer only frame 11 then I don't understand how the Dair spike could be easier.

It looked to me from streams and videos that Marth has just as much end lag after Dthrow than before. That was the only thing preventing Dthrow from comboing. So idk if it changed.

No Ken combo. I'm out of state without my Wii U at the moment but I know without trying it that Fair has too much end lag and Dair has too much start up. They didn't decrease Fair end lag because if they did double Fair or Fair to Uair would work in a short hop. It still doesn't. Fair to Fair barely combos so Fair to Dair is definitely not one.

Yeah if I could remember how i did the pseudo ken combo i would explain in detail the thing is it kind of happened fast and i had trouble afterwards imitating the result, i do remember the starting percent being near 30 to 40% though, but i'm not sure if i touched the ground to receive ending lag since it was a slip/push off the ledge of FD, forcing pikachu into a state of recovery with few options. Though atm i'm testing all of the things i feel i noticed on for glory.

Just waiting on Roy though, looks like he is confirmed via the sound file so I can only hope for better potential instead of relying on the pressure of reads and DI to even land my next hit. That is, assuming Roy plays a better aggressive game.

 

[Darklink401]

You stated yourself that a DB buff was all you thought should happen and it happened. I think Sakurai is just taking a minimalist approach (rightfully so and imo the appropriate way for a fighting game) so he's buffing/nerfing a good portion of the cast in seemingly minor ways. Honestly Marth got a good buff and on paper he's a bigger threat than he was before the patch.

Quit playing Marth in tournaments if you want to, but don't say that Sakurai is intending Marth to be unviable or something because that's clearly false, ESPECIALLY when you got exactly the buff you wanted.

Honestly, if dancing blade's 4th hit is a true combo now, Marth really doesn't need anything else.

<3

 

[Rewrite]

Hey guys. I posted my collective Marth discoveries in the main patch 1.0.6 thread. I have personally confirmed Marth's down throw changes, as well as discovered forward throw changes (f throw now true combos into f-air and b-air in training mode). Un-tippered f-smash now kills sooner and f-air seems to have no changes. You can see my post here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-thread.398902/page-23#post-18995143

I didn't think to test dancing blade out. I'll give that a shot now.

I also was unaware of up-smash killing earlier, but I can't remember what the original non-tippered kill percent was (I believe it was around 120% against Lucina on FD.) Right now though up-smash is killing her at 117% on FD.

 

[Illuminado]

Cheers mate. I've noted down your findings and will have a look at them myself also to see if I can double confirm. Once we get some more confirmations i'll start editing the original post in this thread to list everything we find.

 

[Vipermoon]

I really hope things like Usmash and Fsmash arent stronger. And I doubt it too. 117 sounds about right. I don't want Marth to be this berserker like the heavy weights. "Don't get hit by Marth or you're dead."

Instead, he needs to have the added ending lag on most of his moves removed, a few frames of landing lag reduced, and better autocancel windows that match the animations. If you were to guess when Fair should autocancel by the animation, you wouldnt say frame 36. It looks unnatural the way he lands with Fair after 30+ frames. Same goes with Nair and Dair, especially Dair.

What else is unnatural? Look at Up smash. Why does Marth twitch his body like that as if he's stalling to get punished? His animations were so smooth for Up smash in previous games. Or dancing blade 1. I can go on.

i mean..either way its clear to me this character was not intended to be a threat. so im not using him anymore competitively.

*shrug

And this. You were the one who said Marth isn't supposed to be buffed or he will be broken. Especially with CS custom you said. Now you see the Marth we get and you quit. You asked for this so...I don't know what you want anymore.

I play him because he's fun not because he's good/not good. Even competitively.