Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[David Galanos]

Pretty much what you said in knowing her ways of killing
I mostly approach with SHFF back air which usually either trades with her approaches and/or beats them or SHFF Fair which does wonders for me at the neutral when spaced right
When i notice she keeps trying to approach with Fair, i just do OoS jab which usually punishes her when she hits the ground after her fair
For edge guarding, i just use shuriken to rack up as much damage as possible before she gets back to the stage.

Yeah if the fair hits shield you can't really get any punish besides OoS jab. I'm saying that if they're predictable with their fair approaches and bait it you can get a spaced fair, or a fast nair. It's just a bit more rewarding than shielding and jabbing out of it.

 

[Antonykun]

aww no summoning at the Swordfighter thread? For shame....
Anywhos Greninja is going to spend 99% of the battle not having to deal with the Mii. Arguably the best overall mobility plus some decent to good punishes such as dash grab means Greninja can just play keep away until Swordfighter messes up. Be careful though as Swordfighter's dash attack moves him a healthy distance while also popping Greninja into the air.

Should Greninja be forced to fight in Swordfighter's range do be wary of his up tilt as it can combo into a grab at early percents or into itself or a back/up air at later percents. Due to greninja's amazing fall speed he is immune to Swordfighter's jab cancels for the most part meaning that Swordfighter's jab is way less threatening against Greninja but this also means Geninja gets combos a little bit more. Do not be under Swordfighter at all costs as this means he can U-air you and that move deals 16% plus kills greninja at around 80% with some range.

I think that's enough Rambling on my behalf if anyone's more curious about Swordfighter you can contact us at our player finder and battle request thread, located here: http://smashboards.com/threads/knig...hter-player-finder-and-battle-request.403400/

 

[FullMoon]

Oh crap.

I forgot to go visit the Sheik and Swordfighter boards.

 

[Codaption]

Some ninja YOU are.

 

[bc1910]

Sheik short hops and you kind of just have to watch her lol. Whether she Fairs or not. She gets that kind of free pressure vs pretty much everyone though.

How are people finding needles lately?

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

Sheik short hops and you kind of just have to watch her lol. Whether she Fairs or not. She gets that kind of free pressure vs pretty much everyone though.

How are people finding needles lately?

Needles out range Greninja's water shuriken, but that's pretty much all I know about the matchup :/ Sheik can safely pressure Greninja, but can struggle to get the kill so I guess Greninja players should be looking out for early kill opportunities. You guys have better kill options, so the matchup may not be too horrible.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Fair into falling chomp is almost wario's entire neutral game. There's a bit more to it than that but not really. Wario's kill setups are also kind of hard to land on us with our mobility and recovery options. He have the bike in hand ready to topple off and fart on it (and you)? Pump over him onto the stage. Waiting on the stage with the bike on the ground for you to grab the ledge? Grab it and wait, just see what he does. Worst that happens is he throws his bike up and you take some minor damage.

Wario's aerial mobility can make him a bit of a pain to combo, as his DI is a little more effective than most characters. Just take your hits and don't get greedy or you'll get chomped and wafted. In neutral, respect his fair as it's almost as safe as Jigglypuff's on shield and roll punish if he tries to come down with chomp. I think 60:40 Ninja does sound about right but you have to respect Wario's kill power and speed in the air. The bike is annoying and Wario doesn't die until very late off the sides, so your best bet is to kill him off the top. Water shurikens destroy his bike, so feel free to spam them at long range in the MU, he has no way of getting past them but to jump or sit there and eat them. This will charge the waft but he's going to get it eventually so it's really no big deal. In summary, our moves come out faster than his in neutral and jab beats chomp.

Also, if you try to play more defensive against Wario, that'll be just what the player wants. If Wario forces you to try and run circles around him, that's just helping him if he decides to camp out himself. Every second you're not doing damage to him is another second he's building up gas. Greninja can't really afford to camp out Wario even with shurikens.

 

[MetaBhreat]

The fact that needles out-range shuriken is really important. If Sheik is within water shuriken range, Greninja is within Bouncing Fish range. Allows for a lot of pressure in neutral for Sheik.
A Sheik that knows the matchup will most likely play more defensively in neutral and force you to either approach and/or put yourself in a bad position.

 

[Illuminose]

From the Sheik point of view, the best thing Greninja can really do is be constantly moving, throwing out shurikens and nairs and jumping around. Almost random pressure I guess? But in general, you need to be tricky and constant with your pressure so you can avoid getting grabbed, which is when Sheik can get a lot going on Greninja.

 

[Gunla]

Given what day this is (and what next week will be), I'm extending the week by a day.

 

[KERO]

Marcina: I don't believe this MU to be amazingly in Greninja's favor by any means, but we still have some notable advantages against them. Firstly, most of our moves equal or outrange theirs (a notable example being Fsmash outranging their Fsmash, essentially giving us a free punish if they whiff it, and our Fair is at least equal to Marth's). We also have the ability to force approaches, even at a disadvantage, due to shuriken. Secondly, outside of customs, Hydro Pump is actually a great edgeguard option against Dolphin Slash due to the reduction in airspeed immediately following the move's use. Outside of that, we still have our excellent natural mobility that greatly assists in helping outspace these two and the ability to heavily punish their end lag.

On the other hand, we need to be wary of a number of things. Firstly, Dancing Blade catches us now, can be done out of a dash, outranges jab, and cannot be punished if shielded (to my knowledge), making it an extremely dangerous asset for Marth (Idk about Lucina). The best we can hope for is outranging it with Fair or perhaps jumping away OoS? Marth especially also possesses the ability to kill us extremely early via tippered Fsmash, which can be a huge game changer against a character like Greninja, and while this isn't necessarily an issue that is going to occur in every set against a Marth, much like Ness's PKT2, it still needs to be taken into consideration as a potential negative for us. Finally, Marth is one of the few characters that can actually play the grab game with us and has the ground speed to go practically even with Greninja (the only disadvantage he has is range), and with a Uthrow that works almost exactly like our own in terms of KO potential, that's an extremely dangerous prospect.

Overall, I'd say that we have a slight 55:45 advantage against Marth and a 60:40 advantage against Lucina (I say it's worse for Lucina due to her lack of range and kill power. I believe her Dancing Blade may also be worse?).

Sheik: Sheik still stumps me, to put it bluntly. She outcamps us, has a ridiculous option in Fair, and combos us into oblivion. If Sheik doesn't approach, we really cannot do much to her. We're forced to approach, which is already bad for us, but she can counter anything we can do on shield with a OoS Fair, even jab. The biggest issue she has is that she cannot kill, but that doesn't really matter if we can't hit her. The only way Greninja can even hope to damage Sheik is through baits and reads. It is worth mentioning that once Greninja does get a hit in, he can often easily follow it up due to Sheik's fairly fast falling speed, leading to some respectable combos/strings of his own. Additionally, because Sheik doesn't kill well, Greninja is often going to be at a very high percent, which in combination with Sheik's light weight, allows for Greninja to kill her extremely early (specifically with Uthrow).

Shuriken should not at all be used in this MU in my opinion, except for catching Sheik's landings. Another interesting trick is that Sub has a guaranteed punish on Bouncing Fish to my knowledge, which can net Greninja even earlier kills on Sheik. Overall, though, Sheik absolutely walks all over Greninja, effectively able to completely box him out in every way. Greninja has to continually read Sheik in order to keep up at all. The only saving graces Greninja has is that one read does allow Greninja to get a fair bit of damage in, and Sheik really does struggle to get that kill. Thus, I feel that MU realistically is 40:60 Sheik favor, but I feel it would seem worse at lower levels of play.

 

[bc1910]

You know what's interesting is that Uthrow -> Uair true combos Sheik and other faster falling characters for a long time, in fact it can combo long enough to be a death combo. I always knew this and I thought the window was too small for it to be useful but actually it works (with training mode staling conditions) from 83-97%.

In reality Uthrow and Uair are both likely to be stale because Uthrow -> Uair is one of our main combos, Uthrow being stale isn't a big deal but Uair's staling will make it tough to kill with this combo. I haven't taken DI into account either but I know Uthrow -> Uair is still a true combo if you chase their DI so I'm not worried about losing the combo, but being able to DI the Uair will probably save Sheik for longer.

I think this is why Uair's knockback was nerfed for the Wii U version, a lot of characters seem quite vulnerable to this death combo from Uthrow. If Uair was stronger it probably would have been easier and worked on more characters, it just wasn't a big deal on the 3DS because the stage boundaries are wider.

I don't think this is particularly useful because as I said I think staling and DI will have a very negative effect on this combo but under certain conditions it could be useful. I really like the fact it works on a pretty wide percent window. Might come in handy occasionally.

 

[FullMoon]

I particularly am not finding Sheik to be too bad lately. We really need to be patient in this MU if we're planning to win and play our baiting game to our best, but thanks to Sheik's utter inability to kill we in turn are able to kill her much easier, not only that but if we get in advantage against her we can do some serious damage to her while her combos tend to be lower on damage.

I'd say more about this MU but I'm not feeling very well right now, but right now I think the MU is 55-45 Sheik's favor just because of how she wins the neutral.

 

[Gunla]

Results:

• (55:45)
  
• (Discussion was mixed, but I'll agree with Emblem Lord on a 50:50 for customs.)
  
• (Some Kind Of Advantage, not sure how to quantify it, but it appears that way.)
  
• (40:60, basically little reason for this matchup to change.)

Revisions 1. THIS WILL LAST TWO WEEKS DEPENDING ON HOW DISCUSSION GOES.

• (40:60? 45:55? - I'm not too sure of the matchup and it's contested often, so for obvious reasons it's here.)
  
• (Falco was listed as "advantage" but we weren't too conclusive. @ Ffamran )
  
• (Basically was not discussed whatsoever.)
  
• // (Continuing from last week...)
  
• (55:45 - While we're at it, let's discuss Brawler again!)
  
• (Back again for round 2. Discussed to be an advantage.)

While this is running, 3 new matchups will be placed as normal.

• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (?:?, maybe 45:55?)

Yes, that's 11 characters we have on the table.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh man.



I have a lot of experience with this guy and I'd say that we have an advantage here though things change depending on Mii size. Brawler in general depends on Helicopter Kick or a smash read to get a kill so if we play carefully we shouldn't struggle too much.

Small Brawler is more mobile than us in everything but fall speed, however outrange him quite nicely. From my experience combos with Helicopter Kick are very much DI dependant and usually I'm safe by making my DI towards Brawler when he grabs me which usually keeps him from nailing me with it. Small Brawler also has moves with less lag, though his smashes still leave him wide open with the possible exception of Down Smash.

Default size Brawler has stronger moves and more range but his moves are laggier and we become more mobile than him. I don't know much about default since I only played small Brawler so I'll leave it at that.

Edgeguarding Brawler is difficult because of Feint Jump, but if he does it close to the ledge and you predict his movement, that puts him in the perfect place for an Up-Smash kill, if he's recovering high, you can try going for an Up-Air kill as well. Helicopter Kick is very easy to edgeguard due to it having very little vertical movement and it lasts for a long time making it a prime target for Hydro Pump shenanigans.

Small Brawler is fast so shurikens have to be used sparingly just like against Captain Falcon, but overall they're very good at keeping him at bay or giving you some room to breathe. Also similar to Captain Falcon is that Brawler often goes for the side-b to catch you rolling or spot-dodging and again, be ready to shield once you're at high percentages because Onslaught is a free F-Smash when you shield it, or maybe even a D-Tilt -> Up-Smash punish.

Overall I think it's 55:45 for us. We can keep up with small Brawler and we outrange him while also being able to edgeguard him well, shuriken also help us control space and as long as we watch out for Helicopter Kick Brawler will have a really hard time getting the kill on us.

I think default size Brawler is probably 60:40 for us because we're faster than him while still keeping our disjointed attacks to keep him at bay, as well as shurikens being more effective and a bigger frame makes him easier to hit, though he's stronger so Helicopter Kick is even more of a threat to us.



Recent experience with Falco made me think we have the advantage here. Falco's laser are not much of a threat since Greninja can just go over them or even duck to dodge them, though having a reflector also makes shurikens not very useful against him

The main thing that makes Falco a better MU for us than Fox is that he's slower than Fox and that allows us to maneuver around him a lot better as he has a harder time keeping up with our movement.

Falco's recovery is also very exploitable especially if you can force him to use Fire Bird, at which point it's a free Hydro Pump that can severely mess with him if not just make him fall to his death outright.

Falco's CQC is very good and he can rack up damage quickly on us, but Greninja can very easily fall out of his jab from what I've experienced. Greninja can also rack up damage very well against Falco as his fall speed makes him very good combo meat for us and he's also lighter than us, so we can kill him really fast if he's not careful.

Overall I think the MU would be 60:40 for us. As long as we watch out for Falco's scarier moves like B-Air, Up-Air, Up-Smash and F-Smash I don't think there's much he can do to us though at early percentages getting caught in his combos is going to result in a lot of damage so even if we do have an advantage, don't underestimate him because he's very competent at close quarters.

 

[David Galanos]

We might need a straw poll for , because frankly I don't know if it's 55:45 or 60:40, either one sounds reasonable.

Marcina is probably just a slight 55:45 for us

I agree with FullMoon for and , and I still don't have enough experience for ,, or

but for Mewtwo I can still say we can kill him really early and combo him well, so there's that


Sonic to me is really where your patience as Greninja are put to the test. I have been the most successful against Sonic when I play my best patient game, and this is coming from someone with not the best patience. It's not very fun, but it is the best way to fight him. It really depends with the sonic, but most of the time you will need to have more patience than typical matches against other characters.

-This is another mu where you can't really use shuriken unless it's to edge guard or punish landing. It can't be used as a zoning tool.

- Same with bair/fair spacing, they can just side b and you're kinda screwed. You do not want to eat that percent so throwing out bars and fairs is a bad idea, unless it's spaced safely on shield, and you can get a frame trap or something.

- Nair is the best approach, because nair beats out side b. So if you see him charging a side b you can space a nair and home he lands in it, then do the follow ups out of nair. Or nair before he can get off a side b

- Sometimes if I find myself somewhat close to Sonic and we are both shielding, I try to pivot grab to counter an approach, it works sometimes but it can also just get me punished easily, so it's kind of a gamble unless you're a literal ninja with fast reflexes.

- When Sonic side b's on your shield, just be aware of what he can do. If they just side b and do the ariel, then you can back air or nair after they do it on your shield. Most good sonics will not do this and they will up b, back air to stop you from hitting them, or just keep spin dashing. So you may want to stay in shield after they spin dash your shield, just notice what they do the most.

- I haven't done this myself but you could try hydro pump on side b, I see it being kinda tough to do in time though

- ALSO, do not let Sonic do his stupid up b -> down air landing thing. If you are on the ground under him, that's an up smash if you time it right. Sonic has trouble landing, so take advantage of that, especially when they do those really predictable down air landing things. I honestly don't understand why Sonics just keep doing it when I'm right there waiting to up smash them, and I usually end up doing it.

I think the mu is still 55:45, because it's Sonic haha, and he still gives us trouble in different ways, but we can still fight him off





Villager is pretty annoying if you ask me, and I would say they have an advantage but I'll just throw up a 50:50, just as a guess really. I don't have too much to say about the mu, despite having versing him a good amount.

- I try to really get in Villagers face in this mu. It's hard to deal with campy villagers who do their side b's and slingshots and all that fun stuff, but it can be hard for them if you're constantly on them

- If you're close and they side b, you can dash attack or dash grab before getting hit by the rocket, just be a little quick about it.

- And of course charged shurikens are a huge no, because it will get pocketed and you will die very early if they throw it back. Pocketed moves are pretty insane in knock back.

- Be careful with recovering, because you can die extremely early to bowling ball off the ledge. I try to do a "<" or ">" angle when I am under the ledge vulnerable to a bowling ball, it's how I avoid stage spikes against other characters too.



Olimar I have the least to say about, idek who wins or anything.

- All I can say is Greninja has a little gimmick where he can substitute pikmin and it'll go to olimar if you're close enough. I say gimmick because it's really only useful when the olimar doesn't see it coming. Although if they know you'll do it and they just run away or something you could mix up your angles to hit him. I always do up though, I'm not sure if you can get punished for doing it on shield or not. But yeah this is just a way to deal with pikmin, it's not great but it's pretty cool and can help sometimes.

 

[Lawliet626]

Ive been practicing with an olimar recently and i noticed that certain pikmin do not trigger the substitute, just wondering if you guys knew which.
Also his down tilt is good for interrupting some of our moves

 

[FullMoon]

My experience with Olimar leads me to find it an even MU.

I think the biggest thing about Olimar is that having the Pikmin on you induces panic and makes one loses focus as they try to get the Pikmin off them which is when Olimar can finish you off.

For the most part I'd say don't be too afraid of getting damaged by the pikmin unless it's the white one. N-Air takes all but the blue ones out and F-Smash removes the blue ones.

Be very mindful of Olimar's range because he really outranges us on the ground, in the air I believe we're even matched which brings me to the next point:

Keep Olimar in the air as long as you can. Olimar's ground game is much more difficult for us to deal with than when he's in the air, keep juggling him for as long as can and catching his landings. His low weight also makes it easier for us to KO him so every time you managed to get a grab on him, throw him up and don't let he touch the ground.

 

[Sonsa]

Heyo, posted this on Villager MU thread, but thought Id leave my thoughts here too:

Interesting MU! I feel like both these characters have untapped potential and aren't used a whole lot much, which is a shame cause this MU would be super fun to watch. After some practice, cause I'm sure both players would probably have MU inexperience a bit.

For example, this situation: Villager sets up a gyroid. Does Greninja shadow sneak past? Does he use counter? Maybe Villager is just baiting for this, but Greninja's counter can go in so many directions, and shadow sneak, will he be in front or behind Villager? Of course, Villager's endlag isn't that bad and he can act out to avoid many of these, but he could still eat a nice angles counter and the things mentioned are all possibilities!

Now, pocketing Greninja's water shuriken shouldn't be too hard as once Greninja starts charging he can't stop until he shoots something, no cancel, so once you see this, you basically have a free shuriken. Greninja's probably shouldn't go for this ever unless its just a tap, to shoot a weak one so try and condition for a grab.

Greninja's up-b gimp could work on Villagers whom you edgeguard well and are pressured to get more creative. Villagers may ride gyroid (counter or shadow sneak hype) and hop off it trying to land toward the ledge. Or balloon above and away from the ledge and press a to try and land on it quicker.

As for the other way around, Greninja has no hitbox and his aqua jet is only under or...wherever his hurtbox isn't headed towards. Spiking with turnips or nair gimps are possible! Some Greninja's may try to shadow sneak over to you too, which can work if you're setting up a gyroid with bad timing.

Interesting Greninja recovery option! Villagers can try to get in shadow sneak's way with gyroid, but if you counter when gyroid hits you and aim diagonally up left or right, you're pretty much in the clear. Probably even just holding up too. You can still get hit, but... you dont havta worry about dying off the bottom for a bit. I'm not sure if Greninja can shadow sneak or up-b out of this, I doubt he can do another counter until he lands.

Now on stage, Greninja's dash and crawl can usually dodge slingshots so keeping Greninja away from Villager isn't so easy. Gyroids are...well Ive covered those. Villager may want to be more aggressive as being on the defense isn't too easy. However trees will get you easy shuriken pockets if you're not getting shadow sneaked.

Villagers ganna wanna use tilts and short hop nair a bit more. Gyroids are still good for pressure, but don't just stick around and wait to see what happens. Use it as a bait like in other matchups with gravitational pull or reflectors.

Greninja has nice combos and a nice grab range. Get close, but not too close. Villager's dtilt, dair, and nair should keep that frog at a nice distance and dtilt can lead to some nice upair juggles. Greninja can't do much against getting juggled. Air dodge, sure, readable, but can do the job, same with counter, shadow sneak away? Get slingshot. Dair? Villager air dodge to punish is likely. AND I don't think it beats turnip. Trade at best case scenario...?

I think Greninja has a better neutral as... example, uh-oh, slingshots aint working and Villager's getting hit with weak shurikens not worth pocketing. Gyroid to shield yourself and keep Greninja busy? Counter, shadow sneak, jump over with that great jump - but not that many amazing landing options. Like...Greninja has the advantage for sure, but not overwhelmingly so. Off stage, Villager can do whatever and Greninja is a little too predictable.

I'd say this is 45:55 for Villager? Platforms could help Villager hide and avoid shadow sneak, get some tricky bowling ball/tree kills, but Greninja's amazing up-smash would certainly land more...

 

[FullMoon]

Heyo, posted this on Villager MU thread, but thought Id leave my thoughts here too:

Interesting MU! I feel like both these characters have untapped potential and aren't used a whole lot much, which is a shame cause this MU would be super fun to watch. After some practice, cause I'm sure both players would probably have MU inexperience a bit.

For example, this situation: Villager sets up a gyroid. Does Greninja shadow sneak past? Does he use counter? Maybe Villager is just baiting for this, but Greninja's counter can go in so many directions, and shadow sneak, will he be in front or behind Villager? Of course, Villager's endlag isn't that bad and he can act out to avoid many of these, but he could still eat a nice angles counter and the things mentioned are all possibilities!

Now, pocketing Greninja's water shuriken shouldn't be too hard as once Greninja starts charging he can't stop until he shoots something, no cancel, so once you see this, you basically have a free shuriken. Greninja's probably shouldn't go for this ever unless its just a tap, to shoot a weak one so try and condition for a grab.

Greninja's up-b gimp could work on Villagers whom you edgeguard well and are pressured to get more creative. Villagers may ride gyroid (counter or shadow sneak hype) and hop off it trying to land toward the ledge. Or balloon above and away from the ledge and press a to try and land on it quicker.

As for the other way around, Greninja has no hitbox and his aqua jet is only under or...wherever his hurtbox isn't headed towards. Spiking with turnips or nair gimps are possible! Some Greninja's may try to shadow sneak over to you too, which can work if you're setting up a gyroid with bad timing.

Interesting Greninja recovery option! Villagers can try to get in shadow sneak's way with gyroid, but if you counter when gyroid hits you and aim diagonally up left or right, you're pretty much in the clear. Probably even just holding up too. You can still get hit, but... you dont havta worry about dying off the bottom for a bit. I'm not sure if Greninja can shadow sneak or up-b out of this, I doubt he can do another counter until he lands.

Now on stage, Greninja's dash and crawl can usually dodge slingshots so keeping Greninja away from Villager isn't so easy. Gyroids are...well Ive covered those. Villager may want to be more aggressive as being on the defense isn't too easy. However trees will get you easy shuriken pockets if you're not getting shadow sneaked.

Villagers ganna wanna use tilts and short hop nair a bit more. Gyroids are still good for pressure, but don't just stick around and wait to see what happens. Use it as a bait like in other matchups with gravitational pull or reflectors.

Greninja has nice combos and a nice grab range. Get close, but not too close. Villager's dtilt, dair, and nair should keep that frog at a nice distance and dtilt can lead to some nice upair juggles. Greninja can't do much against getting juggled. Air dodge, sure, readable, but can do the job, same with counter, shadow sneak away? Get slingshot. Dair? Villager air dodge to punish is likely. AND I don't think it beats turnip. Trade at best case scenario...?

I think Greninja has a better neutral as... example, uh-oh, slingshots aint working and Villager's getting hit with weak shurikens not worth pocketing. Gyroid to shield yourself and keep Greninja busy? Counter, shadow sneak, jump over with that great jump - but not that many amazing landing options. Like...Greninja has the advantage for sure, but not overwhelmingly so. Off stage, Villager can do whatever and Greninja is a little too predictable.

I'd say this is 45:55 for Villager? Platforms could help Villager hide and avoid shadow sneak, get some tricky bowling ball/tree kills, but Greninja's amazing up-smash would certainly land more...

Something you didn't quite mention but that is significant: If Greninja's hydro pump hits Villager during Balloon Trip it's very easy for Villager to be sent really high up without snapping the ledge, at which point we get a free Up-Smash or F-Smash as he's coming back down so Villager does need to be a bit cautious when recovering with it.

Hydro Pump also makes Greninja harder to juggle, since it lets him get back on the ground fast and also goes a long distance, if the water hits Villager too it makes it pretty much impossible to chase him down and reading the angle for Hydro Pump can be pretty hard.

By the way when you say 45:55 for Villager you mean it's in our favor then? I didn't quite understand there.

 

[Sonsa]

Something you didn't quite mention but that is significant: If Greninja's hydro pump hits Villager during Balloon Trip it's very easy for Villager to be sent really high up without snapping the ledge, at which point we get a free Up-Smash or F-Smash as he's coming back down so Villager does need to be a bit cautious when recovering with it.

Hydro Pump also makes Greninja harder to juggle, since it lets him get back on the ground fast and also goes a long distance, if the water hits Villager too it makes it pretty much impossible to chase him down and reading the angle for Hydro Pump can be pretty hard.

By the way when you say 45:55 for Villager you mean it's in our favor then? I didn't quite understand there.

Ah yeah, Villager should always try to recover low as fast as possible. And yeah, if Greninja wants some space he can likely hydro pump away to wait for a response or shoot weak shurikens.
And yeah, 45:55 in Villager's favor, 55:45 in Greninja's. Just my conclusion as of now, I can change my mind.

 

[Rucent]

Yo guys! Fellow Sonic main here.

Sonic to me is really where your patience as Greninja are put to the test. I have been the most successful against Sonic when I play my best patient game, and this is coming from someone with not the best patience. It's not very fun, but it is the best way to fight him. It really depends with the sonic, but most of the time you will need to have more patience than typical matches against other characters.

-This is another mu where you can't really use shuriken unless it's to edge guard or punish landing. It can't be used as a zoning tool.

- Same with bair/fair spacing, they can just side b and you're kinda screwed. You do not want to eat that percent so throwing out bars and fairs is a bad idea, unless it's spaced safely on shield, and you can get a frame trap or something.

- Nair is the best approach, because nair beats out side b. So if you see him charging a side b you can space a nair and home he lands in it, then do the follow ups out of nair. Or nair before he can get off a side b

- Sometimes if I find myself somewhat close to Sonic and we are both shielding, I try to pivot grab to counter an approach, it works sometimes but it can also just get me punished easily, so it's kind of a gamble unless you're a literal ninja with fast reflexes.

- When Sonic side b's on your shield, just be aware of what he can do. If they just side b and do the ariel, then you can back air or nair after they do it on your shield. Most good sonics will not do this and they will up b, back air to stop you from hitting them, or just keep spin dashing. So you may want to stay in shield after they spin dash your shield, just notice what they do the most.

- ALSO, do not let Sonic do his stupid up b -> down air landing thing. If you are on the ground under him, that's an up smash if you time it right. Sonic has trouble landing, so take advantage of that, especially when they do those really predictable down air landing things. I honestly don't understand why Sonics just keep doing it when I'm right there waiting to up smash them, and I usually end up doing it.

I think the mu is still 55:45, because it's Sonic haha, and he still gives us trouble in different ways, but we can still fight him off

SD = Spin Dash (SideB) [SD has that initial hop]
SC = SpinCharge (DownB) [SC doesn't have that hop]

First off, small Water Shurikens can stop incoming SD/SC. Bigger Shurikens will not only stop SD/SC, Sonic can get stuck in the shuriken for some damage. Jabbing can also stop SD/SC. If you need to get away from him when he is approaching you this way, you can counter and use the momentum from that to escape. There is also shielding.

If Sonic Homing Attacks, Spot Dodge. If you want, you can try countering and potentially hitting him if you aim towards him. For the most part, he would have to DI himself away from you if you counter, which is sometimes not enough for him to be able to spring or airdodge out of it. If you want to take on Homing Attack, then try using Up Smash. Homing Attack doesn't have a lot of priority, so.. Yeah. Don't cut me plz.

Sonic's landing options are pretty bad. If he had Spring'ed, he won't be able to jump/Spring again until he lands or gets hit. All he can use is his arieals. As you have said, you can Up Smash incoming Down Airs. You can also counter upwards or downward, if Sonic's Dair hitbox is still active. When Sonic Dairs from spring hieight or lower, he will have more landing lag as opposed to if he Dair'ed from above spring height, where he pretty much has none. Being under Sonic is great. NEVER LET HIM LAND SAFELY.

Sonic's down throw allows him to do some tech chasing. Always change the way you tech or roll away if you do get thrown this way. DI away from Sonic if you're being up throw'ed, just DI toward the stage if you get back throw'ed.

I reconmend learning about all the options he has with both Side B, and Down B. The Sonic FAQ thread can help you with knowing the ins and outs of these moves. http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-guide-faq-ask-questions-here.371222/

All in all, I really do believe the match up is probably even, if not, very close with Sonic potentially. He may be the fastest thing alive, but a greninja with base 122 speed and likes scarfs can still give him a good run for his money. Just play safe, don't throw out any laggy moves and pay attention to what Sonic does a lot and act out accordingly. He'll try to mix up though.

If any of you guys want to play agianst a Sonic, I am willing to play.

Edit: I forgot to mention: I don't reconmend Hydro Pump vs SD. There is just better options like the ones mentioned above to deal with it. However, you can try using that on Sonic off stage if he already used his spring.

 

[bc1910]

@ Rucent Excellent post. Thanks for your input, I agree with everything you said. The more I play this MU the more I feel it's even, it's kind of an obnoxious MU but both characters can make each other really hard to hit. Spin Dash can really pile on the damage, but once you get used to it it's not the kind of thing you should be getting hit with too often.

I just wanted to touch on Olimar and say that I think @ FullMoon is right, we definitely don't want to be challenging his ground game much because his attacks are, frankly, better. In the air though, Olimar is much less of a pain to deal with. Olimar can go really defensive which is annoying but remember that Nair and Dash Attack are excellent tools to break through defensive play with since they're very safe on everything but shield. When Olimar starts shielding too much, that's our chance to dashgrab him.

Also, don't forget we can full hop shuriken and charge it so that it fires shortly after we hit the ground. In doing this we avoid Olimar's thrown pikmin from the ground and can chase after the shuriken to approach, which is excellent. If Olimar wants to hit us he needs to jump and throw Pikmin, which puts him in the air (where we want him) and makes him vulnerable to shuriken catching his landing. Remember we always have the option to release it early. He can also run in and approach, perhaps run under us and Usmash, but if he does this we can release the shuriken in the air and double jump away safely, or even release it really early and just Dair him. After a while, we might be able to bait approaches from him by simply full hopping.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Is there anyone who can tell me about how Greninja fares against ?

 

[FullMoon]

Is there anyone who can tell me about how Greninja fares against ?

Greninja rivals ZSS in mobility and the Paralyzer while still a threat is very risky for her to use due to the lag of it and Greninja's high short hop, if you see the opening hit ZSS with a N-Air and try to keep her in the juggle.

ZSS's slow grab means that she can't shield grab us as easily as other characters can, so after landing with a N-Air you can jab and stop her from grabbing you.

Shurikens have more range and cancel out Paralyzer.

Always DI straight down if hit by Up-B as that increases your chances of surviving past 100% unless you get caught at the ledge.

Don't get too spammy with shurikens because Flip Jump can and will murder you if you get predictable.

Speaking of Flip Jump try to predict it's trajectory and hit ZSS with Up-Smash during it, she's lighter than us so she should die very early to a sweetspoted Up-Smash.

This MU would be really bad if it wasn't for ZSS's bad grab, but thanks to it the MU is solidly even. Both characters are super mobile which is enough to keep both on their toes.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Informative, thank you very much.

 

[Ffamran]

Did'ya miss me? 'Cause Falco never forgets his prey! The Falco boards started their ongoing Greninja discussion and we'd love to "chat" with the dorky frog-ninja.

Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-44-greninja-that-aint-slippy.405264/.

And if you just want to play with other Falco players or want to learn about the MU, then head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Gunla]

Two days remain till I update things. Some remarks:

• Mii Swordfighter and Gunner haven't been really discussed much. Mewtwo is acceptable as he is still newish.
• Lucas is releasing soon, so I may have a week featuring impressions on him.
• Aside from a few tweaks, things are looking good.
• Next week will contain a Ness Revisit and ZSS, with two other characters.

 

[FullMoon]

I have far too little experience with Swordfighter, Gunner and (good) Mewtwos so I can't say much about them.

I plan on maining Lucas so at least I should be able to contribute a good deal for when we do a Lucas discussion.

 

[Gunla]

And so the revision wars come to an end.

Results (Updating Later):

• (45:55)
  
• (Go to the Falco Boards; Once they are finished, I'll add their score here.)
  
• (55:45, unchanged)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (55:45)
  
• (45:55)
  
• //// (?:?)

This Week:

• (Discussed as a 50:50 on the Rosalina Boards)
  
• (?:?, Discussion tending to lean towards 50:50)
  
• (?:?, Kong Cyclone)
  
• (50:50, @ Luco ?)

 

[FullMoon]

I have college work to do today so I can't post much here. I don't have much experience with custom DK, but there is this:

It's a Sheik video but I'm pretty sure Greninja can do the same thing.

Other than that, I just want to say that you guys really overestimate how Greninja beats Ness offstage. Ness's double jump and airdodge are really good so forcing him to use PK Thunder offstage is not easy at all.

 

[Luco]

Yo!

We've been discussing this on the Ness boards too recently (after @ FullMoon and @ bc1910 and I mentioned it on the CI thread), so I might just quote some of the posts there and let you guys take a gander. Otherwise I'll also go let the other Ness mains know the discussion is happening.

Since @ Luco mentioned it in the Character Competitive Impressions thread, I just thought of coming here to see what he was talking about.

Now, I did not come here just to argue why Greninja beats Ness or any of that stuff because that would be pointless, but I do want to say some things about this MU.

First up, I do understand that getting Ness offstage doesn't mean instant death for him in the MU, assuming that would be really dumb, however Greninja still does have the advantage offstage, if we can ever force Ness to use PK Thunder (which, by the way, Greninja doesn't struggle too much to do, a well timed shuriken can eat Ness's double jump or force him to airdodge and outside of that, our B-Air is fast and long lasting while also having a good range so we can smack Ness back a bit or just KO him outright) he's really at Greninja's mercy at that point and unless the Greninja messes up, it's very likely that Ness will be gimped.

Another thing I found out that works on our favor is that if we're hit by PK Fire, Greninja can prevent Ness from grabbing him
by mashing jab, somehow he manages to get the hitbox out and that will prevent Ness from getting the grab in, of course grabbing isn't the only thing Ness can do out of PK Fire, but it is something that helps Greninja in the MU.

Ness also doesn't deal well with being juggled by Greninja as he doesn't have much to help him land safely (N-Air would probably be the best choice) while Greninja has a lot in the way to keep Ness in a bad position, especially with Up-Smash being a very good anti-air that Ness doesn't have much of an answer to (N-Air trades with it at best).

Ness does have plenty of strenghts though, his aerial game is better than ours what with those disjoints in F-Air and B-Air (though I'm pretty sure our F-Air has more disjoint than either) and his grab game is amazing and very dangerous and of course, B-Throw. He can also harass Greninja pretty well with PK Thunder when he's offstage, though if Greninja manages to make his way across Ness might be left wide open for punishment.

I do think Greninja's ground game is better though, a lot of Ness's attacks on the ground are pretty laggy or short ranged so we have a better time dealing with him when he's on the ground since we can really exploit his weakness there with our range and mobility.

I've faced a lot of Ness players myself (including Kodystri and last time I played his Ness our last game was pretty close though he still won) so I think I know the MU pretty well to be able to talk about it and I never really felt overwhelmed when fighting Ness, though it never felt easy either, I find the MU to be even myself.

Again I'm not here to defend my character or anything, I just wanted to express my opinion on the match-up and see if anything productive could come out of it.

Oh, and I apologize if I'm derailing the discussion.

No it's totally fine and I welcome discussion any time haha.

For the first iteration of our matchup chart, we're only touching on 11 matchups. These 11 matchups are the 11 most common tournament characters, at least according to the SWF rankings. The rankings aren't incredibly accurate, but they work well enough to generally gauge the most popular characters.

Right now Greninja isn't a tournament threat. Not because he's not a good character but because not many people play him.
And the few that do probably don't play him well since he's so hard to use. That means that Ness mains can't accurately describe the matchup for the most part. Who here has played against a variety of Greninja players that play at a tournament level?

In a couple months we plan on doing the next set of 12 tournament relevant characters. We will definitely include Greninja then and we'll see how ness mains feel about the matchup. That should give enough time for Ness players to experience tournament play against the more fringe characters.

From what I've seen posted on these boards I see a lot of people think that Ness has a slight advantage. I don't find that surprising just because Greninja is so unpopular and difficult to play well. As the meta progresses there's a good chance the matchup won't turn out to be in our favor.

I'll speak to my personal thoughts on it.

There are only two dedicated Greninja mains in FL as far as I know. Coffee and Akashic Sword. I've played against and beat Coffee in tournament. I have yet to play against Akashic Sword unfortunately. He's probably the best Greninja in FL as well. Hopefully i get the chance to play with him sooner rather than later. Ookami is a decent player who also mains Greninja that I've faced. I've also played against a couple of other random Greninjas. I'm comfortable enough to say I have a bit of experience in the matchup, but I don't have any solid opinions on it yet.

I get the feeling that it might slightly be in our favor. Greninja's frame data really holds him back I feel. His aerials are not good at dealing with pk thunder harass cause they're so slow. If he ever short hops while we're in fair or nair range he'll get beat out pretty easily. Unlike Rosalina, Greninja doesn't have access to fast, large disjointed hitboxes on the ground that he can try to wall out Ness with. I'm sure Shuriken can be potent, but projectiles that travel through the air are typically more difficult for Ness to confront, and Greninja can use his shuriken in the air without a pretty heavy commitment.

Greninja does juggle Ness quite well because of his gigantic disjointed usmash. And with any hard read off stage ness will die to Greninja. I will say that I don't feel like Greninja has great Kill power or options. Obviously his smashes kill, and his fair and bair aren't too bad either, but neither of those kill too early.

You're right that Greninja has an easier time than most characters getting out of PK Fire. This is because he has very fast fall speed and his limbs protect the core of his hurtbox. That means it's very easy for him to get out of PK Fire.

I get the impression that Ness has more going on in this matchup than greninja. But there's a good chance it's an even matchup. I wouldn't say I've ever played a Greninja as good as me so that probably heavily skews my opinion.

While Greninja's F-Air is indeed pretty slow, his B-Air isn't really, it's frame 5. Greninja players do need to make more use of B-Air in neutral since it has such a good range and speed to it, as you mentioned yourself, Greninja is hard to play so there's still a lot for us to learn.

I do need to correct you about Greninja's kill power and options though. Greninja can kill you guys as low as 87% with Up-Smash and catching you with a F-Smash or F-Air near the ledge allow us to kill you pretty early as well. Greninja also has many setups to allow him seal the deal on Ness ( Sourspot N-Air and D-Tilt both combo into Up-Smash, D-Air, Dash Attack and sourspot N-Air can combo into F-Air all at kill %s) so he definitely has the power to take Ness out pretty quickly if he gets the chance. In fact if it wasn't for Ness's back throw I don't think Ness has anything guaranteed to kill Greninja outside of maybe something with PK Thunder. I've often lived to very high percentages against Ness players that couldn't grab me.

Thanks for coming to discuss it @ FullMoon , I'm really happy you're here. ^_^

I remember the reason I was very :/ about it when you guys discussed it was because a lot of people over-rated our use of PK Fire in the MU and what Greninja could do to get around that (which, don't get me wrong, is a strength for him for when we do throw it out) and I think at high level play you'll find PK fire is far less of a B&B tool.

In regards to recovering for the shuriken, I was interested in this idea. Normally if Ness mains really feel under threat from an edge-guard, we'll DJ AD through it; and because our DJ is so massive (3rd highest second jump iirc, possibly 2nd) it usually gets us through a lot. Shuriken sounds like a bit of a commitment, so wouldn't we just AD if we saw Greninja standing onstage or even jumping off and trying to use shuriken? I certainly think it's still very advantaged for you, but I also feel as though DJ is still a big tool for us offstage. Feel free to prove me otherwise.

For the most part my interest comes from noticing discrepancies in how the Ness mains see the MU and how the Greninja mains see the MU, as well as questioning certain lines of thought (not that they're necessarily wrong of course). But, I actually would be fine if Greninja was say, even against Ness, I just wanted everyone to be on the same page about it. So yeah, again I have to say thanks for coming to discuss it!

Ness's double jump is indeed one very good tool to help him recover and is pretty much the reason why edgeguarding Ness isn't as easy as it sounds on paper. I mentioned the shuriken thing because I've had it happen before a lot with Ness players getting sniped out of their double jump with it and while it's not a 100% reliable method, it's still useful.

Otherwise, I don't have much to say about it. Airdodging against Greninja can result in you getting smacked with B-Air though and if that happens you're gonna be sent back without your double jump at which point you're in a pretty bad position.

Offstage game is indeed in Greninja's favor, but I still don't see why Ness would be forced to use PKT in most situations. It's not like Greninja can forcibly pursue Ness off stage better than most characters (I'm talking Jiggs and Villager here), nor does he have a projectile he can just drop off the ledge should Ness decide to recover low. Those are the things that force me to use PKT2 most often. Like Luco mentioned, just with the DJ alone we can recover most of the time. Add that to the fact that Greninja doesn't have any attacks that send you horizontally (like Ganon's ftilt), and I feel that we'll be recovering with just our DJ most of the time. Shuriken snipes out of the DJ really should only happen if the Ness isn't being careful with his recovery. DJ+air dodge gets him through a lot of stuff, and DJ+aerial (fair/nair) should outprioritize just about everything Greninja can throw out at him on an edgeguard.

The actual biggest reason I give Greninja an advantage off stage is because Ness really can't do squat against him off stage. Seriously Ness mains, do NOT overextend to edgeguard this character. You'll find yourself in a watery grave.
PKF is not integral to Ness' gameplay, especially against a higher mobility character like Greninja. Sure he might have a free ticket out, but that doesn't actually change too much in the matchup. Even if you jab, there are a ton of other things we can do to punish that, like spit out another PKF, or aerials.

I disagree with Ness having it hard being juggled. Ness has high priority aerials that trade well. If Ness nairs Greninja's uair, he gets out of the juggle and wins that trade. Also, his aerial mobility, weight, and air dodge very rarely gets him comboed by uthrow > uair. Greninja players usually have to go for the air dodge read. I've been subjected to uthrow into uair/usmash often, but Ness seems to have the mobility to wriggle out of it. You shouldn't be challenging it, but moreso avoiding it. Even then, bair is probably a safer landing tool than nair. Nair is just for trading with the uair or beating out attacks in terms of speed. In fact, nair is one of the more dangerous aerials to land with, so I don't know where you got the idea to land with it. Uair and bair are much safer.

Ness easily has the advantage in the air, I feel like there's not much to say here. Ness aerials trade harder, outprioritize, and outspeed Greninja's. The only thing Greninja might have is a little more range on his aerials. With Greninja's fast fall speed, uair on the ground also combos really easily into grabs and utilts and stuff.

On the other side of the coin, Greninja easily beats out Ness on the ground, but so does half the cast. Ness will either be grabbing or preparing to SH if he's on the ground. Just be aware though, that Ness' combo starts DO start from the ground, and they hurt a lot if you get opened up by them.

I'm still pretty fixed on it being a slight advantage to us. Greninja just doesn't have the threatening tools outside of some gimping power to make me feel like this matchup is out of our favor. I'm not afraid of him in the air, I'm not afraid of him on the ground (worst thing is uthrow I feel), and I'm not afraid of him at KO percents. I'm really just afraid when I'm off stage.

Greninja is really not afraid of much of what Ness can do either other than B-Throw. Ness has no kill confirms against him other than it and so as long as we know what we can and can't challenge Ness can't do much to us either.

Ness's Air Speed isn't even that good, he's 31th. Greninja has more aerial mobility than him, though Ness does have a better air dodge but that's probably it, Ness and Greninja also have the exact same weight.

Ness has better aerials imo.

I havent played a greninja in ages but his Fair beats ours I think?
Against Greninja I mainly worry about Dair since it beats Uair and goes through PKT (Iirc) and the small water shuriken. once it starts being charged you can bat it back super easy and theres enough cooldown that it usually hits Greninja but the little uncharged ones are problematic. and his Fair offstage is trouble. i think its rather tough for Ness to approach greninja. Ness will do well close range but the main problem is getting there.

Uair stands out to me as a great kill move in this matchup, from what I remember. but like I said its been a while.

Personally I think Ness isn't as vulnerable recovering in this MU as one might think. On the other hand, Greninja is exceedingly mobile, making getting the kill on him tough even with grabs. I'm going to abstain from putting a ratio on this MU until a few other people have discussed it because I haven't really played a good Greninja (so few mains in Australia or Israel ).

 

[FullMoon]

I play Kodystri with some frequency in Anther's and in general what I can say about Greninja vs Ness is:

Ness fears Greninja on the ground

Greninja fears Ness in the air

Ness fears Greninja's mobility

Greninja fears Ness's kill power

PK Thunder II has been the reason behind a lot of my losses against Kodystri but other than that we're pretty evenly matched. Additionally if Greninja manages to force Ness to PK Thunder II, it's a free stock for us unless we really mess up.

So yeah, I still think it's even.

 

[bc1910]

My main points on Ness are these:

• Almost every Greninja player in our group (including NinjaLink who is a very experienced, very good player) believes we beat Ness 55:45 or worse. NL actually believes it's 6:4. This is not just because of edgeguarding although that is a factor.
• Ness' aerials are significantly better than Greninja's, there's no denying that really since Ness has one of the best sets of aerials in the game full stop. That said, he still doesn't like being above Greninja because his Dair is his worst aerial. It's somewhat slow and can't really compete with Greninja's Uair, which is fast and easy to hit with. Ness doesn't like being juggled by Greninja at all. Others have touched upon this and I agree with them.
• Ness does not so much fear Greninja's attacks on the ground as he does Greninja's mobility and effective ways to combat PK Fire, Ness' main ground control tool. Shurikens outrange PK Fire which forces Ness to approach to at least PK Fire's max range, at which point Greninja should be looking for opportunities to powershield PK Fire and dashgrab to punish (none of that is hard to do on reaction).
• If hit by PK Fire, Greninja can just shield because of his fast falling speed. He then able to roll out of the flames easily. Make sure you don't always roll in the same direction because that makes for Super Easy Reading dashgrab punishes from Ness. If you predict Ness doing anything besides grabbing, just sit in your shield.
• Greninja is significantly more mobile than Ness in every sense, PK Thunder is dangerous to throw out against him even when he's recovering because he can reach Ness quickly if Ness messes up. Also Shadow Sneak. Greninja must be cautious of running into PK Fire but even if it hits him, it's not a big deal as I pointed out above.
• I really don't think Ness' KO options are very good besides back throw but back throw is so good it barely matters. Still, whilst I don't think Ness' KO options are easy to hit with, they are not risky to throw out. Moves like Bair and Dsmash are hard to punish and can be devastating at kill percent. Be wary when Ness is trying to kill you. Also note that Ness can use PK Fire to set up kills against most of the cast but struggles to do so against Greninja because he can shield the hits even at high percent.
• DI away and double jump when Ness uses his Dthrow, you will escape true combo follow-ups by about 30-40%.
• Ness on the ground is not just "PK Fire" (a common Ness misconception is that if you beat PK Fire you beat Ness, which is far from true) and his close range game is better than Greninja's, but Greninja's mobility is good enough for him to rarely, if ever, be forced to combat Ness up close. (This is one of the character's major strengths in general and is why, broadly speaking, he only loses to characters who can catch him AND beat him up close, of which there are not very many).
• Edgegaurding Ness is not hard. It's not reliable enough to call this MU a 7:3 or anything, but Ness needs to be extremely cautious of Greninja's edgeguarding capabilities.
• Basically every time Ness is forced to use PKT2, his stock should be gone because of Hydro Pump. It is vital that Greninja players learn to gimp PKT2 consistently because it CAN be done and provides us with free kills. Get directly above Ness but still slightly between him and the stage, then Hydro Pump upwards.
• He recovers with his strong double jump + Sm4sh's stupid airdodge, but this basically comes down to a 50/50 as to whether Ness airdodges or attacks as he returns to the stage. If read properly by Greninja, Ness should be swatted away and forced to use PKT2. Edgeguarding Ness is not as free as some Greninja players make out, but Ness is still more vulnerable to Greninja's edgeguarding than the majority of the cast and needs to be very cautious when recovering.

Those are my main points. I believe this MU is slightly in Greninja's favour. If I had to put a number on it I would say 55:45 Greninja.

 

[Ffamran]

• (Go to the Falco Boards; Once they are finished, I'll add their score here.)

We'll probably won't finish since it's an ongoing discussion and we're only in the first cycle of discussions. If anything just slap a 60:40 Falco for purely the sake of Greninja's metagame growth versus Falco's along with the whole usual of mobility, approach, and disadvantage issues Falco has.

 

[Gunla]

We'll probably won't finish since it's an ongoing discussion and we're only in the first cycle of discussions. If anything just slap a 60:40 Falco for purely the sake of Greninja's metagame growth versus Falco's along with the whole usual of mobility, approach, and disadvantage issues Falco has.

Alright then.

• (60:40)

 

[bc1910]

Also I know we're not discussing them this week but I need serious help with the Link and Toon Link MUs. We apparently beat both of them solidly which is either incorrect, or means I'm terrible at both MUs. Probably a bit of both.

With Toon Link I just feel like I can't do anything without getting pelted with bombs. He locks Greninja down with constant bomb throws hampering his mobility, and you also have to be wary of the boomerang. Greninja cannot outcamp Toon Link but I also don't like fighting him up close, Greninja's jab beats all of his options in speed but more generally TL seems to have faster attacks and they hit surprisingly hard. The worst part is just getting pelted with bombs all the time and I don't know what to do.

Link is less of an issue but lately I've been struggling with him as well. He's less mobile than Toon Link but his projectiles are just as annoying, he kills Greninja early, he has fast aerials like Nair to throw out with near-impunity up close and he generally just smacks me around almost as much as his cartoon self.

I know both characters fare poorly against shields because of their bad grab and throws but Greninja's OoS options are ass so it just ends in a stalemate. Toon Link in paticular can just run away from a shielding Greninja to pluck more bombs.

It frustrates me because neither of these characters are considered amazing and Link in particular is apparently "garbage" after his jab nerf, yet they seem very solid to me.

This should be obvious but just to clarify, I am not talking about For Glory level spamlords, they are not hard to deal with. I am talking about good TL/Link players who understand bomb management and use their aerials well.

Can anyone give me any help? It would be much appreciated.

 

[Luco]

@ Noa. made an interesting comparison in the thread the other day about how in Brawl, when he played Olimar, no-one said they were able to gimp him well and then proceeded to put the MU in their favour, because they respected his on-stage tools. In a similar vein, I'd like to mention that although I've never faced a particularly great Greninja, I've only ever been gimped by HP once, and I think @Earthbound360 has never been gimped by HP (I could have that wrong and it's Rosa's GP he's never been gimped by). That sounds like a cop-out, sure, and I don't mean to say that my own experience = definitive truth or even the indication of such. I don't disbelieve you that HP is really important and can be used as a gimping tool but I don't think a high level Ness will be dying every time he has to use PKT2. I think you're the first person I know that's ever said Ness has bad kill options outside of Bthrow. He doesn't need the kill confirms because most of his aerials will kill anyway and are relatively safe. If he can grab, he can Bthrow, if he can't, he can use Nair, Bair, Uair, even Fair in an edge-guarding scenario can kill. Most characters who get 'kill confirms' still need something to hit in the first place. Ness is almost unique in that he can almost bypass that system entirely, because his aerials are so damn good.

Whilst I still don't want to put a ratio on the MU, I don't believe at all that the MU goes as bad as 60:40 froggy's favour (if NL really does think that). Ness has 1 60:40 in this game afaik, and that's . Not even Rosalina takes that place. If Froggy were a 60:40, we'd know about it. I suspect we'd know about it if he went 55:45 against us too but I could be wrong. :o

Sorry if this comes out stronger than intended, I was just surprised. Also most of the Ness mains feel like people over-rate their MUs against him when they can gimp him, so I suspect a lot of Ness mains might feel shut out in these kinds of discussions. You're welcome to respond how you may.

 

[bc1910]

I didn't say his kill options were bad, I said I didn't like them. It may come down to personal preference but it's also due to how hard they are to land. I do not consider Nair a kill option until you're at like 130% near the ledge, at which point a ton of random moves in this game will KO. For Uair to kill, the opponent must be directly above Ness, where Greninja should never be (good air mobility + high burst double jump + Hydro Pump to the ledge as a last-ditch getaway, also Dair but it's not safe).

PKT2 has an extremely lengthy startup animation. There is more than enough time for Greninja to react and use Hydro Pump. He should be aiming to hit Ness before he can direct PKT1 into himself, causing him to move away whilst still directing PKT1 so he misses himself and falls into helpless. The worst case scenario is that he hits Ness after he has hit himself with PKT2, in which case Ness will fly well above the stage and will just fall into a Smash Attack and die anyway. People say that Diddy should be dead every time he has to use Up B at high level if the character he's fighting has a good offstage game, it's exactly the same deal here. One thing that doesn't change no matter what level you play the game at is a move's frame data and general behaviour, and Hydro Pump simply hard counters PKT2 because it just ruins how that move works. Greninja doesn't even have to go near Ness and risk getting hit with PKT2 like most characters do if they try to hit him with an aerial.

Greninja is a non-existent tournament threat. It's quite possible for him to 55:45 or 6:4 a lot of characters who wouldn't know about it because they forget he even exists. Like, he blatantly beats Luigi at least 55:45 but I guarantee you Concon and Boss won't believe that nor will they bother learning the MU until Greninja starts showing some results.

I went through Ness' on-stage game thoroughly so I don't know how you can still play the "people think gimping Ness = win" card when I covered the MU in its entirety and said multiple times that being able to edgeguard him is not the only reason we should beat him. Frankly, I knew you would try to play that card because you've said it before, so I made sure not to focus on gimping entirely.

Most of the other character boards overrate their MU against Greninja after the nerfs since they don't consider him a threat. I guess the Ness boards are no exception.

@NinjaLink I'm positive you said you think we beat Ness and I do think you mentioned it being 6:4 but I don't wanna be talking out my ass. Would you mind clearing that up for me? Do you still think we beat Ness and if so by how much? I understand if you don't wanna put a ratio on it (I don't think slapping ratios on things is helpful at this point, honestly) but knowing which character you think has the advantage would be helpful. Thanks man.

 

[Noa.]

Lol Ness's hitbox on uair is gigantic. It hits opponents all around Ness, not just above him. I once hit and killed a crouching sheik with uair while I was landing. And that move comes out on frame 8. Uair is stupid good.

Dsmash is also really good at ledge guarding, and it's easy to get kills with it. If greninja tries to go for a ledge jump or a hydro pump to get back onstage, Ness can stuff that easily with an aerial. The frame data on your aerials is so poor that trying to get onto stage by jumping is difficult. Dsmash covers both standard getup and ledge roll. It kills at sub 100 near the ledge.

Blair comes out frame 10 and is great for punishing any laggy mistake. When you're a kill percent a Ness will start mixing up tomahawks with sh uairs and bairs. Shield when a Ness is short hopping towards you and you die. Try to do an attack to stuff one of our grabs and you trade and die to one of our aerials.

Ness is so stupid good at killing.

I just find it weird that you think your characters beats ours. Onstage Greninja seems easier to approach than Rosalina or Sheik. And those matchups are only -1 for us. If it's easier to approach Greninja, then how can he be at the same level or worse? Both of those characters also do much better against Ness offstage.

Like Ness is not a poor character lol. And I don't think Greninja is either. But I think it's wrong to say he beats Ness. Has a high level Greninja ever beat a high level Ness?