Matchup discussion: King D3

[∫unk]

looked for the addy vs flameleon video, couldn't find it

i'm looking at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g8sbK4bAGo

going even with a mid level d3 :/ to flameleon's credit he knows how to be smooth with mario and he knows a lot of mixups but it's still mario

i think most mario's understanding of the metagame is misguided and unfortunately narrow-minded. it's like you guys live on wifi or something lol. i just don't feel a lot of tournament experience backing up these posts so it's hard to take you guys seriously.

 

[HeroMystic]

Because he's totally not. Mario players just need to get better and not get grabbed. It's still a disadvantage, but NOT BECAUSE OF HIS GRABS.

Never said this. I call him Chaingrab because it's amusing to me. I've personally developed tactics specifically to avoid getting grabbed and whenever DDD pops up, the grab is not much of an issue. It's his B-air, waddle dees, and spacing. His grabs are just icing on the cake.

When people say "It's not that bad" it's because they never met a DDD main who doesn't have a scrub mentality, Or they just fight DDD secondaries, or they just plain don't know the MU.

The MU for DDD is a lot like the other MUs for Mario. You need strong knowledge on how to fight against the other character in order for the MU ratio to hold true. Most DDDs don't have this knowledge.

 

[BoTastic!]

For those saying that MK is easier than DDD...

Seriously?

But anyway, I personally think this match up isn't as bad as people think it is. But like the DDD players are saying, it's Mario, this match up is very tough BECAUSE of the chaingrab and that dang Bair. Try not to get grabbed and really utilize the Dair and juggles. However, if you wanna win in brakcet? Please use someone else. I only use Mario against DDDs who can't fight a Mario like mine.

Either way, I've always found it muuuuch more fun than facing MK. At least we're actually faster than DDD, can juggle, and gimp his recovery easier than most like Flame implies. We have nothing on MK because he does what makes Mario good much better. He's Mario on 10x the dose of crack.

 

[HeroMystic]

I just MUs based on the amount of options you have and how effective they are.

-vs MK you have plenty of options (unless Planking or Air camping is involved), just they're not very effective against a top-rate MK who can **** your pants off. Plus it's kinda fun to watch yourself struggle and crawl away just for MK to pull you back in.
-vs DDD you have very limited options against a player who is serious about winning, and your options become less and less the higher your damage percentage goes.

 

[Coolwhip]

@ζunk:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN6MSsa8rdc

↑ Offline tournament....flame vs. addy
2009 status btw...

 

[BoTastic!]

vs MK you have plenty of options (unless Planking or Air camping is involved)

Planking and air camping is MK played to full potential. If characters like G&W and Snake can't do much about it, then what chance does Mario have against it?

I still think DDD is easier.

 

[- rko -]

I personally feel that D3 is truly our worst MU behind Marth. The only good D3s Ive played are Orion and T and both of which arent even D3 mains but still beat me with a noticeable lead, although T seconds him iirc. But like everyone stated before, spacin and shield pressure are the only things that can kinda give ya an edge in this gay MU. A little off topic, but I feel that MK is a 4:6 at best and the reason I say this is because this MU requires Mario to do what he does best imo and thats being patient tryin to create openings and punish accordingly, although the latter is quite hard seeing that its MK. And most of all, when MK tries to wall us out we can use his transcended priority against him with our fireballz. But hey, thats just me and the MKs in in States are probably way better than the MKs here in Europe. so I understand the 3:7 ratio.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I legitimately have NEVER played this match up before, in fact, I was bored a couple days ago on my wii, looking at the stats, and D3 is the character Mario has the least amount of Kills and Deaths against out of every character in the game on my Wii.

 

[Seagull Joe]

yeah, i do that when the matchup is REALLY REALLY bad, because i feel like it's not fun for either player. this is one of those. i don't use ddd against noid (samus) or seagull (wolf) in friendlies either, just because it's not particularly fun for either of us

that said, matador used to ****ing BODY me in this matchup. if the ddd doesn't know what he's doing, you'll have the upper hand. if it's like, a secondary/pocket ddd or if he's not very good, you can prolly take him out, because chances are he won't know the infinite anyway if he tries to do so.

EDIT - btw, the one thing matador used to do that would get me back when i was bad: bait grab, space fsmash. matador is NOTORIOUS for empty sh>airdodge>REVERSE FSMASH OH YES and it would catch me every time and i'd die at like ~120% or something. if he's grab-happy, which lower-level ddds will be, find ways to bait and punish.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL@gif

I love vs , but I would never do it in tourney unless I had to.

 

[vato_break]

LOL DDD isn't as hard as mk .maybe it's because i have a top 3 mk in my region that ***** my mario so hard that i think that and mks dont take advanatge of timing mario out all the time either...but anyways, i feel like mario has a slightly better chance agianst DDD due to DDD being gimpable and juggable. It's still a super hard matchup but, if you are a better player, you should be able to win.

 

[Matador]

looked for the addy vs flameleon video, couldn't find it

i'm looking at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g8sbK4bAGo

going even with a mid level d3 :/ to flameleon's credit he knows how to be smooth with mario and he knows a lot of mixups but it's still mario

i think most mario's understanding of the metagame is misguided and unfortunately narrow-minded. it's like you guys live on wifi or something lol. i just don't feel a lot of tournament experience backing up these posts so it's hard to take you guys seriously.

But do you play high level Marios? Overall, it's just sounding like G&W syndrome to me.

aka. on paper, it's so bad that Mario HAS to marginally lose this match-up.

If I'm wrong, let me know.

Btw, D3 can't infinite us. It's easy to get out if you learn to do the Kprime button mash. Change D-pad to shield and jump, and mash out during pummel.

EDIT: Flame is really good at this match-up, LMAO. Smooth like butter. Somebody other than Zak, put up that 100 at Apex.

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ Then D3 just stops pummeling.

 

[Matador]

I thought he needed to pummel to perform the infinite?

Stale moves n all that?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

he does iirc at a certain %

 

[HeroMystic]

Planking and air camping is MK played to full potential. If characters like G&W and Snake can't do much about it, then what chance does Mario have against it?

I still think DDD is easier.

I suppose I shouldn't invoke a double standard. Chaingrab is easier if MK is sadistic enough to plank a low tier character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Eh, I think DDD is worse than MK and I might play seriouslies as DDD vs some of you guys at Apex if you like, no MMs though [money sux].

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

The way the infinite works is that once Dedede's Dthrow is on the staleness list SIX times and a regrab is attempted, it won't work. That's why if you pummel in between you get:

Dthrow > Pummel > Dthrow > Pummel > Dthrow > Pummel > Dthrow > Pummel > Dthrow

And if a Pummel is used...

Pummel > Dthrow > Pummel > Dthrow > Pummel > Dthrow > Pummel > Dthrow > Pummel

That's why we have to use Pummel in the infinite. Still though, 4 regrabs and then a chaingrab across the stage is quite a bit of damage. At higher percents, mashing out becomes harder.

 

[Matador]

That's what I figured...

Fluttershy, what were you talking about?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

EDIT: Flame is really good at this match-up, LMAO. Smooth like butter. Somebody other than Zak, put up that 100 at Apex.

I was actually dead serious about that MM. Oh wow you guys can gimp our recovery. Good luck forcing me to actually have to super jump to begin with.

This MU is completely unwinnable for Mario, somehow I get the feeling that a lot of you haven't played a decent Dedede main.

Seriously, this MU should be "pick up Icies" for Mario.

 

[Matador]

I was actually dead serious about that MM. Oh wow you guys can gimp our recovery. Good luck forcing me to actually have to super jump to begin with.

This MU is completely unwinnable for Mario, somehow I get the feeling that a lot of you haven't played a decent Dedede main.

Seriously, this MU should be "pick up Icies" for Mario.

I'll MM you at Apex. Maybe not for 100, but it'll happen. It's win/win for me either way.

 

[BoTastic!]

I wish I was going to Apex now.

 

[SKidd]

****ing hype.

 

[| Big D |]

Mario gets screwed. Especially with the infinite. Your best bet is to camp, but even then it's hard. Bair shuts down most of Mario's approaches. Ftilt keeps you at bay. Getting a grab can set up some wonderful things being underneath Dedede, but bee weary of a fastfall'd bair. Shieldgrabs and bair literally wreck Mario in the MU. Never just throw smashes out even for spacing, one grab can mean a stock or 30%. He out ranges Mario on the ground and in the air. One can wrack up damage once your inside, but don't take any risks. Dedede lives forever to, don't even try to kill with usmash. Use fsmash or dsmash.

-4

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'll MM you at Apex. Maybe not for 100, but it'll happen. It's win/win for me either way.

Okay. Plenty of time to figure out how much.

 

[Coolwhip]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn670CJpryA

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Random pointless update, but next time me and 2Fast are playing will be next weekend, so we'll get matches up then.

 

[vato_break]

Mario gets screwed. Especially with the infinite. Your best bet is to camp, but even then it's hard. Bair shuts down most of Mario's approaches. Ftilt keeps you at bay. Getting a grab can set up some wonderful things being underneath Dedede, but bee weary of a fastfall'd bair. Shieldgrabs and bair literally wreck Mario in the MU. Never just throw smashes out even for spacing, one grab can mean a stock or 30%. He out ranges Mario on the ground and in the air. One can wrack up damage once your inside, but don't take any risks. Dedede lives forever to, don't even try to kill with usmash. Use fsmash or dsmash.

-4

-4 would mean marios chances of winning dedede are equal to the chances of zelda beating mk. the matchup is not that horrible.

I'd like to hear some input from good players who actually practice this mu often.

 

[Kanzaki]

Commander Beef, DDD main in SoCal, once said Vato ruined his life.

Spoiler

althoughtvatowasusingmetaknight

Myself and Vato were able to get close games off of Beef/X in tourney as well.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn670CJpryA

At the end of that Mario would eat 50%+ because I can see Mario lagging just before the video ends with Dedede facing him. Grab -> DThrow x5 -> CG (probably 2 throws) -> DTilt -> edgeguard.

Dedede might have taken a ******** amount of damage, but Dedede had a guaranteed kill there afterwards.

 

[Flameleon]

-Playing with infinites huh, i see now why you're confident on this, haha, nevermind, if a D3 really wants or needs the win and just tries to infinite us, there's no other choise but to play dirty...-

 

[Matador]

Guaranteed?

Let's be real for a minute. The only way D3 is guaranteed to kill Mario in that scenario is if Mario DIs the Dtilt horribly.

Even then, there's not much room for error on D3's end...not enough to consider anything "guaranteed".

 

[Omari]

Critique such as don't get grabbed doesn't help.

Then the question becomes, how do I prevent getting grabbed? Ideally, you want D3 diagonally above Mario (where u-air animation starts up) @ all times. Why? safest way to rack damage.

How? Pressure his shield with empty jumps, fire balls, full hop d-airs & shield poke him airborne with u-tilt (anti airs) & short hop d-airs.

Since D3 out ranges/prioritizes Mario he has 2 reasonable options. Get in (aggro-opening your opponent up with safe ticks, grabs, block strings etc & @ the same time improving your current position) or zone (playing in a certain range beneficial to yours & @ the same time detrimental to theirs). Most likely you'd want to get in because that's where Mario shines best in brawl (airborne).

Many people fear d3's b-air & I understand why. My advice to those when they believe they don't have an answer (counter) for that particular move is to do your best to prevent those situations from happening. Offstage=do your best to remain above D3.

Granted, I'm not perfect but I'm working on being damn good & humble @ this game (despite umvc3 being my next strong-point).

 

[steep]

I don't have a ton of experience with this MU, but I have played Technical_Chase's DDD in a MM not too long ago and I will say that I don't feel that this MU is as hard as some of the other MU's that we are giving the same ratings to. I never feel as helpless against DDD as I do against a really good IC's or MK or Marth.

Against Tech_Chase, I used a combination of camping with fireballs and when I got backed into the edge, I either went over him or moved past him with a dair and then neutral reverse fireballing as I double jump away. Also, something that I found very helpful was catching his landings with fireballs. Throw a fireball under him as he's landing and when it hits you have time to get a grab or attack in, which can lead to a good string. However, don't get greedy; it's just not worth it.

The other thing I would suggest is learning to count his jumps. Know when he has to land and learn to punish those landings. This MU is definitely not easy, but it's do-able. Hope some of this was helpful.

EDIT: Approaching powershield is very helpful against his ftilt/bair. Just be careful not to get grabbed out of the bair. Basically, punish quickly after the powershield, don't take your time. (Uair OoS, Nair OoS if he is at a high %, basically anything with quick enough start up that he can't powershield you back, or you'll get grabbed!)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

-Playing with infinites huh, i see now why you're confident on this, haha, nevermind, if a D3 really wants or needs the win and just tries to infinite us, there's no other choise but to play dirty...-

I'm not going to not use something if I have access to it. Under the Unity ruleset, which I play under, the infinite is allowed.

Guaranteed?

Let's be real for a minute. The only way D3 is guaranteed to kill Mario in that scenario is if Mario DIs the Dtilt horribly.

Even then, there's not much room for error on D3's end...not enough to consider anything "guaranteed".

I'm not exactly sure how you see that as little room for error... There's not a whole lot difficult in doing that to Mario.

And I will give you that okay, you'll probably survive. But considering you die so much earlier than we do, if you go for the ledge we can BAir you, and if you land onstage I can have my way with you... you're put in a very, very bad situation and will be eating quite a bit of damage trying to get back onstage, if you do in fact manage to recover.

 

[Coolwhip]

I like how much success/attention this thread has gotten so far....
By the end of this week, i'd see if we need to move on to another character matchup.

← Truly godlike

 

[Matador]

I'm not exactly sure how you see that as little room for error... There's not a whole lot difficult in doing that to Mario.

And I will give you that okay, you'll probably survive. But considering you die so much earlier than we do, if you go for the ledge we can BAir you, and if you land onstage I can have my way with you... you're put in a very, very bad situation and will be eating quite a bit of damage trying to get back onstage, if you do in fact manage to recover.

"Guaranteed" in fighting games generally refers to a margin for error so large that you can screw up timing or inputs or something and still manage to perform whatever it is that you're trying to do. That's all I was saying in reference to your margin of error for the edgeguard since you have to be rather accurate with your bair or whatever you edgeguard with, and we've got a few defenses against it.

There's also risk of stagespike involved, which will force you to upB, which may lead to a kill for us.

And yeah, offstage generally sucks in this match-up for Mario.

 

[BoTastic!]

And yeah, offstage generally sucks in this match-up for Mario.

Kinda redundant, thats almost any match for Mario.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

There's also risk of stagespike involved, which will force you to upB, which may lead to a kill for us.

God I hate it when this happens. I mean, most of the time I tech it, but usually it's at times where like, the Mario is dead anyways and I went offstage to style on them or something and screw up. Can never seem to tech it when it matters, like when I'm actually on the ledge :/

 

[Matador]

Yars, did you and 2Fast play?

 

[Inferno3044]

@flame-I would be willing to sidebet a lot of money against you if you were to MM coney or atomsk in Mario vs. D3 at apex.