Matchup Q&A: Ask Specific Character Matchup Questions Here

[DeLux]

Ask Character Matchup Questions here. General ICs questions go in the General Q&A thread. I'll do my best to catalog questions and answers through the OP. If someone wants to do it for me, you should E_alert me or be my Guest. Enda line.

Spoiler

smoooooooooooooom

1. Ask general matchup related questions here
2. Consult the OP first to see if your question has already been answer about a specific character
3. Global Rules Apply
4. Keep Social Discussion in the Social
5. Please limit posts about "Who has beaten whom" unless they are relevant to the MU at hand
6. Listen to what DeLux and/or OP holder has to say for direction of thread

[collapse="Metaknight"]

I have a lot of trouble against MK. I am really terrible at the MU.
Can you tell me what you can do when you manage to shield a dsmash, nado or shuttle loop? Right now I have to let MK go free without punish when he does those moves. Is there any chance at recovering in this MU? How bad is the MU in the current metagame? Any new videos of the MU that show how the MU is played well?

Against MK's tornado what is the best way to avoid getting shield poked? I've tried running under platforms when my friend uses nado to try to pivot grab it but he has the spacing down to where I can't pivot grab it and I get hit with nado. I've seen 9b do something where as soon as the nado hits his shield he would roll backwards or something and almost never get shield poked. Can I get some tips on how to handle nado better? I hate losing to dair dair dair dair nado lol.

Tilt your shield up, learn how long you can hold it for without it getting poked, then spot dodge if you think he will stay on top of you/near you until nado runs out, or roll in the direction you think he will be retreating in at the end of his nado. If they stay on top of you and you spotdodge, it can lead to grabs pretty often, I know Lain always got a lot of grabs like that, and it's one of thee most helpful simple things I picked up from him.

D-smash front hit - If you spaced you're DSG and netted a perfect shield off of it, you can shield grab him, if you're not in range for a shield grab then either retreat with jump, dash away, or perfect shield again. What ever you do don't sheild drop and dash grab it, you're shield drop is frame 7, you're dash grab is another 9 frames, in the time he'll be able to d-smash you in the face lol xD (Even with a perfect shield, you're too slow to dash grab, can't remember what frame it'll hit though).

D-smash back hit - Nothing. Just get away from his d-smash range and try to rethink you're approach. (Or just don't approach lol, depends on the timer the the percent you and your opponent is at). Basically unless you are on top of him and you perfect shielded the back hit, (in which case, grab) then just get out of there.

Nado - See Roller's advice. Other than that if you're shield health is too low to bother shielding, then be ready to stutter-step F-smash it, turnaround blizzard, or sometimes pivot grabbing it. F-smash is better for MK's that telegraph their Nado, and saving it for the KO. Turnaround blizzard may just nip them and sometimes get them to accidentally buffer a side-b for a grab. Pivot grab depends on their Nado spacing, but apparently not many MK mains know how to space around IC's pivot grab.

Shuttle Loop - Perfect Shield then up air it. If you don't go to up-air it, then simply chase the glide to stay close to MK. If's he's dumb enough to glide attack you're shield, perfect shield grab it. You're two shield's makes it hard for him to do cross-up glide attack. Also watch for when he doesn't attack it, goes through, and D-smashes or Nados or w/e, since then a whiff grab will hurt... >.< If you're in the air, D-air it since it doesn't have invincibility then. Be careful with the D-air though since the MK can bait it, then hit it with Up-air, Up-tilt and Tornado easily.

Video wise, anything Vinnie, Esam, or Japan will help =P Older matches are also worth a look at, since older main's playstyle's are still very effective, but sometimes different from today's top IC mains. (i.e. Pivot-grab threatening Meep, Shield-happy simple desync trap Lain, Blizzard da bess Kakera, etc.) A nice simple change in pace that'll get you thinking about the effectiveness of playstyle choices you don't see as often today =P

MK is easily IC's hardest match-up, and really test your reactions and desync spacing (sometimes desyncing will just not happen, since blizzards may get you d-aired, and simply because MK mains are watching and spacing to punish it, similar to how we can space and bait tornado to punish it ^_^) Aka takes a lot of experience.

It's really our hardest match-up simply because if our reactions are off by a little, then Nana gets hit whether you perfect shielded or not, and then she's dies. Hopefully you'll be lucky enough to play MK mains that don't know how to punish Nana lol xD (i.e. knowing that their attack will hit her and not you, then immediately following up on her and not bothering with you)

Recovering is simply mixing it up enough lol xD You're side-b is very flexible, and mixing it up with belay will be all you need. Just takes experience really to know which to use, and ice blocks can help as well from above. Sopo shouldn't make it back, but that's more theoretically, you can always at least make it so you'll be DI-ing is next attack. For Sopo learn to get you're mashing perfect so you can stay horizontal for the full distance. It'll be a useful tool for mixing up getting back since you can wait longer to use it that way, and mix it up when you're high above MK, choosing to fall it fast, or trying to land it so you have barely any lag. (Sopo can minimize the lag by perfect landing it similarly to how MK nado and Sync IC's side-b can, it's just a different, higher height.)

Good luck! :D

Amazing. Just amazing. Thank you.
Though I don't have to worry about MKs since he is banned here, but I practice it in friendlies with ppl to learn it in case I ever need it. Finnish MKs aren't anything special, but they can sure make life a hell for an IC player. I cannot recover at all, when I belay, they dodge Nana and then dair Sopo while he is trying to join with Nana and then he dies. SideB easily gets daired and then boths ICs enter freefall. It's kinda hopeless.
Fair also always gets me. The simple but effective Fair -> dtilt thing really kills me as I have a hard time with it. Fair always either pokes me or pushes me closer to the ledge. Is there anything except Blizzard to stop his fair spacing? What about dealing with Fsmash? I shouldn't punish it much right?

MKs fair is not safe on sheild. You can grab him if he does it.

What? What!? WHAT?! For real?
How do I do that :o
It would help me soooo much since Finnish MKs love to fair a lot...

If they short hop F-airs your shield, drop your shield and dash grab them. Whenever MK SH F-airs then he has to land, he can't jump again like he can for other short-hop aerials he has. This means that after the third hit, drop shield, dash grab his two frame landing lag ^_^

For your recovery problem, don't always recover low, sometimes the best answer against MK if you have to get hit is to get hit from high up so you can DI towards the stage. It's really just experience to know when you can safely belay, etc. It's really all about spacing yourself properly from MK so he can't simply fast fall nair or d-air you.

Also remember, if you save your double jump, and belay to the ledge before using it, even if you get hit out you can double jump > Sopo side-b back =)

Like I said, try recovering in weird ways, and in safer positions so a hit from MK =/= death =P

Damn B0NK, just make a guide already, your stuff is simply amazing!
How hard is the timing to grab MKs fair to learn? Are you sure he can't Dtilt you out of it if he has good spacing?

All right. That will change the MU a lot for me since I have been walled hard by fair xD
It's also because I tend to drop my shield at the 2nd hit because I forget he isn't Marth. Well that can only fixed by playing moar.
Since your answers are so awesome I'll ask the next thing: What do I do when the MK decides to simply jump around and dair to prevent you from doing pretty much anything? I find it really really hard to do anything since a single dair can put an IC to a horrible position just like that. Can that thing beat Blizzard and should I use it against him in that situation? Does uair beat his dair if you are directly below him?
Do you count his jumps and guess when and where and how he is going to land and punish it with something, preferably a grab?

Damn I'm so bad I can't beat any MK I face

I've thought about it, and still haven't decided, I can really go into a majority of the match-ups in this game in detail and write it out. But I also feel like no one would want to read 1000+ words on each match-up lol xD

Also one last thing about recovering, remember you can save your jump, go low, then rising U-air MK away from the ledge to safely Up-B =P If they shield the U-air on stage then there 7-frame shield drop makes it too sow for them to run off the stage and hit you out of belay =)

Shi- that 4-frame long lasting U-air we have is our best move LOL xD Just never forget about using it =P

[/collapse]

[collapse="Olimar"]

Desynced Blizzard Wall shuts down 90% of his options, IIRC. Try to force the Olimar into approaching. If you get grabbed/pivot grabbed then have Nana do something ASAP like an F-Smash, if Nana gets grabbed you should do the same. Don't let him get you into the air. Not sure how safe his aerials are on shield, but if the Olimar tends to throw Fairs at your shield for some stupid reason, pretend he's Marth and just powershield > grab him.

Although Icies aren't really a character to pick up for one matchup, lol. You'll have more trouble just learning how to play them in general than you would if you used Marth or Falco, who also give Olimar trouble. Marth is probably the easier one to learn but he requires amazing spacing.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Diddy"]

^ When Diddy has nanas, try and bait the throw and shield them. If you can play keep away with the nanas, you should be at an advantage. Don't let diddy get a grab, throw out some sort of hitbox like nair because Diddy likes to separate the climbers with their side bs as well. A lot of ICs like to use throw nana > ice block for a grab setup but from my experience, once they catch on it's better just to keep the nanas away. However you can use nanas to catch landings and get grabs of reads or just in a ruckus.

Nair works to pick up nanas of the ground.

Anyways, how do I deal with a Yoshi that double jump nairs me all the time? It's annoying because he just lands on the platform, if I throw out a hitbox he just super armours it and if I try and shield and punish I'm at a huge risk of getting baired or just eating another nair. I'll have a vid up tomorrow.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Falco"]

Posting in the right board is a good way to start.


Which of Falco's moves are safe on shield if we PS them? And if they stupidly do Jab 3, can both Popo and Nana SDI to his back so that Nana is free when Popo grabs?

Yes, both of them should be able to SDI. I'm not sure which moves are safe though.

It's possible for both to SDI, but you only really need one of them to.. As long as popo comes through you just grab him and dthrow. Not like nana is gonna be knocked that far from a jab.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Marth"]

Okay thanks guys.
Now then, what the hell do I do against Marths fair? I cannot challenge it, I cannot punish it, I cannot do anything even if I powershield. The best thing I have managed to do is to catch him with IBs and then possibly go for a grab or move forward. Most of the time he forces me to retreat to the ledge and then I die
Sucks to lose to a single move, really, the MU is impossible...

I have already explained this...

"It depends on what the Marth does. I assume you're talking about him just running up to your shield and tipper f-airing it. You basically have to read what he's going to do afterwards.

If he retreats the f-air:
Turn around, so you're facing away from him when you shield his f-air. When he f-airs you, Lux Desync out of shield (I can't remember if it's 1 or 2) and ice block towards him (you'll be facing him since the Lux Desync uses a turnaround.) Then chase the IB and shield. If he's good, he'll double jump. Punish accordingly. If he tries to f-air you or air dodge the IB, you get a grab.

If he goes through you:
Stay turned around, as if you were doing the above.
When he f-airs and travels through you, you can either risk getting a grab by reading his landing, or you can just n-air or b-air him OOS."

I enjoy running behind Marth and pivot grabbing his Fairs.

^^^Yeah that timing works

Not gonna lie, complete forgot about that LOL xD It's the best way to stop people who DI into your SoPo squall hits to hit you with a big punish at the end! :D

*Makes mental note to do it more often*

Also against people who like to jump up and hit you with say, Marth's Fair, all you can do it recover from high up so that if you get hit you end up on the other side of the stage, giving you a better chance of making it back to the ledge =P (Great against MK's Semi-spike Up-B hit, since semi spiking to the opposite side of the stage means you get to the opposite ledge sooner)

^^^This is all SoPo stuff btw

I didn't say that LOL xD Marth's edge-guarding game is just amazing, but realize he does have to commit off stage to either high or low, so you can mix it up between those two.

Once you grab the ledge his amazing at keeping you there as well, and this is true for EVERY match-up for Marth (Metaknight less so, but welp! xP)

And understand that as SoPo you're ****ed regardless if the person knows how to edge-guard his ayuss recovery haha xD Shi- even a Ganon can make SoPo's recovery look like crap lol xD (Not to say Ganon beats SoPo, SoPo isn't THAT unviable! xD; ) As an IC main you just have to recognize quickly the best answer to get back to the stage (against MK getting hit to the other side is sometimes the only option, etc. =P)

And I guess listen to SaintKai about the Marth match-up, I don't want to write another dissertation about Marth now haha xD

is there any recent videos of good IC players playing against marth? I can't find any that arnt like 4 years old lol. I'm just having trouble with marths fair and want to see what IC players do to get around it.
Thanks!

Leon vs Myollnir is a classic.

Leon has no idea what he is doing. Neo vs Vinnie is the only recent high level Marth vs ICs vid I can think of. Most of the other top Marths (Mike, KillLock, Zex, etc) don't live near good ICs players.

On second thought, there's a video of Kadaj vs ESAM from a few months back iirc. That would be another.

Esam vs Kadaj
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2E9kT65ra4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1193s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUxBNQhSVOE

Tige vs Mikeneko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XorduuJUNJU

These are the most recent ones I've seen.

Don't bother with the Mikeneko vid. I had to stop watching at 59 seconds in. Neither of them knows what they are doing.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Pikachu"]

For all the ics mains, out of the following stages, where would you take a skilled pika main to and why? I really need this for a tourney that is coming up (SRT) for reasons that are viable.

FD, BF, SV, YI, and Lylat,

Thank you.

In the order:
FD
YI/SV
Lylat
BF

I would want to reduce the number of platforms pikachu has to camp on, and if no platforms isn't an option, moving platform so I can easily platform cancel to scare him into staying off of them. I've been preferring YI alot more due to it having one solid, low to the ground platform that can sometimes be plat cancelled on. This is best to ask Esam, but I think my order is solid.

Volt Storm can you help me with Japanese, since you're here? ;o

I thought about that, but when I play a ics, they usually take me to FD, where I usually win, but the platforms do help. Thanks for the input. What exactly do you need help with? lol

Platforms facilitates Pika's ability to camp with thunder jolt as heavily, as well as giving him somewhere relatively safe to land. Still need to watch for edge slipping, since pikachu is vulnerable to it.

I just want as much help as I can get for Japanese, since I was thinking of possibly minoring in it.

I would take him to FD, then Lylat or Yoshi's, then SV, then BF.
The slanty ground of Lylat allows for downhill dash grabs to grab him out of his d-air, and ****s with his QAC spacing. You can platform cancel and there's like a 1% chance the stage will gimp him for you.
I'm biased towards Lylat though.

He can camp REALLY ****ING HARD on SV and even harder on BF.
Yoshi's has a huge platform that blocks TJ's for you. Easy mode.

lol, hey volt. Long time no talk. I think pika gets completely and utterly ****ed by ICs on YI. So.

YI
FD
BF
Lylat
SV

I've written quite a bit about the matchup and my reasons for where I prefer on both character boards, but if you pm me/catch me on the pika xat, I'd be happy to offer you more help.

I'd recommend watching captain L playing the mu, btw.

How the MU should be played... (Ice climbers)

How it shouldn't

Thanks for the advice roller, I kept all your advice in mind at it helped a ton.

Thank you so much.

And you're right about YI, he had 72 Ledge grabs.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Pit"]

SDI Everything (Not even kidding)

Like moves you'd benefit from having quality SDI variations:

Jab - Through
Rapid Jab - Through
Angel Ring - Through
Nair - Opposite Direction Pit is moving
Uair - Usually Up
Fsmash - Up and through
Utilt - Away and Down
Dsmash * ISSDI
Ftilt * ISSDI
Dtilt * ISSDI
Fair * ISSDI
Bair * ISSDI

Moves it doesn't really matter:
Retreating Dair

I'm willing to bet front side Dsmash and Ftilt are punishable on shield with dash grab, so the ISSDI on those might not matter as much as the other one's. Fyre more or less proved to me that Dtilt is broken as ****, but if they misspace it you can grab it which is where ISSDI would help.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Kirby"]

Since the Kirby Q&A thread kinda got abandoned, I'm gonna try to ask over here.

How should a Kirby deal with ICs in general? Obviously it's one of our worst matchups, but there's gotta be something.
I know, "dont get grabbed, herpaderpa", but its near impossible to prevent yourself from not getting grabbed at all thru the whole match, and I feel like every single grab is a stock off of me.
Any tips?

If I were Kirby, I would use my double jumps to attempt to bait an IC to over commit on a grab option. I would also try to use platforms to bait the IC into over committing on an Uair. Also, if on the ledge, if the IC over commits to a hard edge guard, you can mixup inhale. Once they over commit, you must capitalize on it IF it's safe and use it to separate and kill Nana.

It's a hard matchup for Kirby because if the IC doesn't ever over commit to things, you kind of have to grind your game to a halt since there aren't many options. I think Falln is decent at the MU, so maybe he can namesearch and pitch in?

So would you say going to places like Battlefield/Delfino/Lylat would be effective picks against ICs, for the sake of having platforms to do shenanigans with?

I haven't had problems with ICs in the past until pretty recently, the 2 matches were on FD and Smashville...that might have been the problem.

Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Halberd would be the CPs Kirby would go to in a best of 5 imo.

In terms of neutrals, you're kinda SOL. I think you'd try to strike to PS1 > CS/LC/YIB/BF > SV > FD. The 4 are sort of interchangeable depending on personal preference imo

did someone say namesearch~

kirby icies is just playing like a *****. kirby does have a lot of multi hit stuff though so if you can fly away and sneak behind them with stuff like dair mix ups (dont land with dair vs icies though thats a horrible idea) and start dash attack/jab/utilt then you can get some chip damage in there like that. if you float around them just out of range of actually getting hit (diagonal being the key here because icies dont jump side to side very well and their uair hits straight up and their fair/nair aren't good for anti air) then you can just try and scare them into doing something they dont want to do or sit in shield for too long. if the shield is chippable then you can go for uair -> utilt -> another utilt/bair -> uthrow or w/e depending on the percents. if you have the lead then you just want to camp like a ***** because the risk reward on everything is way too skewed in icies favor. just stay diagonal of icies though and dont get pressured into dodge mechs when you dont have to and its not as 100-0 as people say it is.

as far as counterpicking goes just go for stuff that you can waste time running away because matches will be pretty slow. sv, ps1, siege are good for this. in socal recently we've been playing neutrals only but of course if other stages are legal then you'll want to go for rc, brin, frigate, and ps2 whenever possible

[/collapse]

[collapse="Donkey Kong"]

Against DK, I try to powershield his bairs, and position myself so his bair isn't completely spaced. If you powershield an unspaced bair, that's a free stock. Also, DK overcommits with a lot of his moveset. If you bait him, you give yourself an advantage right from the start, because ICs should NEVER be overcommiting. Nana should be backing up Popo, Popo should be backing up Nana.

DK has a hard time with blizzard wall. His down B effectively beats it a lot of the time, but there are quite a few counters to that.

Here are a few videos of me playing the MU that you should watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaP8wduojnE#t=7m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcWZ-ghKs9U#t=2m42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASwq5jcJCWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9JYlMob0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOrUxXcDBVA

They aren't very recent, but every set I've played will in with ICs other than these, haven't been recorded. :/

[/collapse]

[collapse="Ike"]

Ice Shot as a spacing tool destroys Ike if you know how to use it

[/collapse]

[collapse="Lucas"]

Ice Shot as a spacing tool destroys Lucas if you know how to use it

Most Lucas players hate YIB and Lylat, which is good since it means you can now tripless CG them via hobble.

[/collapse]

 

[DeLux]

Reserved for stuff if needed

 

[Rubberbandman]

Only ask Delux questions and don't Cheese it up around here.

Let me start asking questions; How should we deal with Metaknights that "go crazy"? As in, they just do stuff and can be successful vs some Icies just because of that.

 

[DeLux]

If they do stuff, you should punish them for it

 

[infiniteV115]

That was the best post ever.

 

[Smoom77]

smoooooooom

 

[Wumbo105]

Since the Kirby Q&A thread kinda got abandoned, I'm gonna try to ask over here.

How should a Kirby deal with ICs in general? Obviously it's one of our worst matchups, but there's gotta be something.
I know, "dont get grabbed, herpaderpa", but its near impossible to prevent yourself from not getting grabbed at all thru the whole match, and I feel like every single grab is a stock off of me.
Any tips?

 

[DeLux]

If I were Kirby, I would use my double jumps to attempt to bait an IC to over commit on a grab option. I would also try to use platforms to bait the IC into over committing on an Uair. Also, if on the ledge, if the IC over commits to a hard edge guard, you can mixup inhale. Once they over commit, you must capitalize on it IF it's safe and use it to separate and kill Nana.

It's a hard matchup for Kirby because if the IC doesn't ever over commit to things, you kind of have to grind your game to a halt since there aren't many options. I think Falln is decent at the MU, so maybe he can namesearch and pitch in?

 

[Wumbo105]

So would you say going to places like Battlefield/Delfino/Lylat would be effective picks against ICs, for the sake of having platforms to do shenanigans with?

I haven't had problems with ICs in the past until pretty recently, the 2 matches were on FD and Smashville...that might have been the problem.

 

[DeLux]

Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Halberd would be the CPs Kirby would go to in a best of 5 imo.

In terms of neutrals, you're kinda SOL. I think you'd try to strike to PS1 > CS/LC/YIB/BF > SV > FD. The 4 are sort of interchangeable depending on personal preference imo

 

[falln]

did someone say namesearch~

kirby icies is just playing like a *****. kirby does have a lot of multi hit stuff though so if you can fly away and sneak behind them with stuff like dair mix ups (dont land with dair vs icies though thats a horrible idea) and start dash attack/jab/utilt then you can get some chip damage in there like that. if you float around them just out of range of actually getting hit (diagonal being the key here because icies dont jump side to side very well and their uair hits straight up and their fair/nair aren't good for anti air) then you can just try and scare them into doing something they dont want to do or sit in shield for too long. if the shield is chippable then you can go for uair -> utilt -> another utilt/bair -> uthrow or w/e depending on the percents. if you have the lead then you just want to camp like a ***** because the risk reward on everything is way too skewed in icies favor. just stay diagonal of icies though and dont get pressured into dodge mechs when you dont have to and its not as 100-0 as people say it is.

as far as counterpicking goes just go for stuff that you can waste time running away because matches will be pretty slow. sv, ps1, siege are good for this. in socal recently we've been playing neutrals only but of course if other stages are legal then you'll want to go for rc, brin, frigate, and ps2 whenever possible

 

[Wumbo105]

Damn...that's really not my style of play, I'm gonna really have to stray from my comfort zone for this MU.
Anyway, I think I got the picture. Muchas thank yous, guys.

Maybe I should try out a secondary for them...

 

[Latch]

What do you do as ICs vs characters that outrange you badly, like Ike with spaced Nairs and Fairs? Or DK etc.

 

[Vinnie]

What do you do as ICs vs characters that outrange you badly, like Ike with spaced Nairs and Fairs? Or DK etc.

Against DK, I try to powershield his bairs, and position myself so his bair isn't completely spaced. If you powershield an unspaced bair, that's a free stock. Also, DK overcommits with a lot of his moveset. If you bait him, you give yourself an advantage right from the start, because ICs should NEVER be overcommiting. Nana should be backing up Popo, Popo should be backing up Nana.

DK has a hard time with blizzard wall. His down B effectively beats it a lot of the time, but there are quite a few counters to that.

Here are a few videos of me playing the MU that you should watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaP8wduojnE#t=7m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcWZ-ghKs9U#t=2m42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASwq5jcJCWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9JYlMob0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOrUxXcDBVA

They aren't very recent, but every set I've played will in with ICs other than these, haven't been recorded. :/

 

[Calvonta "Calvo" parker]

H0w to properly learn how to desync? In the heat of battle I usually fail @ it.

 

[-LzR-]

Play against a level9 CPU and practice desynching while he is harassing you.

 

[Calvonta "Calvo" parker]

Play against a level9 CPU and practice desynching while he is harassing you.

Where is that Jackie Chan "What" face when you need it.

 

[-LzR-]

Well what happens is that the CPU will be aggressive towards you and wants you dead. What you have to do is to try to desynch correctly while under pressure by the CPU character. It simulates the real deal. What's so hard to understand?

 

[DeLux]

H0w to properly learn how to desync? In the heat of battle I usually fail @ it.

Where is that Jackie Chan "What" face when you need it.

Play against a level9 CPU and practice desynching while he is harassing you.

Well what happens is that the CPU will be aggressive towards you and wants you dead. What you have to do is to try to desynch correctly while under pressure by the CPU character. It simulates the real deal. What's so hard to understand?

Please ask general ICs Q&A in the General ICs Q&A thread

Thank you

 

[Musketeer04]

Anybody know what to do against Falco while playing Toon Link? How do you get out of his chain grabs?

 

[dettadeus]

Posting in the right board is a good way to start.


Which of Falco's moves are safe on shield if we PS them? And if they stupidly do Jab 3, can both Popo and Nana SDI to his back so that Nana is free when Popo grabs?

 

[Smoom77]

Yes, both of them should be able to SDI. I'm not sure which moves are safe though.

 

[Roller]

It's possible for both to SDI, but you only really need one of them to.. As long as popo comes through you just grab him and dthrow. Not like nana is gonna be knocked that far from a jab.

 

[Musketeer04]

Sorry, I only saw the title so i just assumed it was for every character

 

[Calvonta "Calvo" parker]

Mkay, MU thread.

What is the MU synergy vs Olimar based on?

 

[Rubberbandman]

What is the MU synergy vs Olimar based on?

How good you are at Rock Paper Scissors.

 

[Calvonta "Calvo" parker]

How good you are at Rock Paper Scissors.

Hmmmm. I am the gr8est.

 

[-LzR-]

Okay thanks guys.
Now then, what the hell do I do against Marths fair? I cannot challenge it, I cannot punish it, I cannot do anything even if I powershield. The best thing I have managed to do is to catch him with IBs and then possibly go for a grab or move forward. Most of the time he forces me to retreat to the ledge and then I die
Sucks to lose to a single move, really, the MU is impossible...

 

[TheSaintKai]

Okay thanks guys.
Now then, what the hell do I do against Marths fair? I cannot challenge it, I cannot punish it, I cannot do anything even if I powershield. The best thing I have managed to do is to catch him with IBs and then possibly go for a grab or move forward. Most of the time he forces me to retreat to the ledge and then I die
Sucks to lose to a single move, really, the MU is impossible...

I have already explained this...

"It depends on what the Marth does. I assume you're talking about him just running up to your shield and tipper f-airing it. You basically have to read what he's going to do afterwards.

If he retreats the f-air:
Turn around, so you're facing away from him when you shield his f-air. When he f-airs you, Lux Desync out of shield (I can't remember if it's 1 or 2) and ice block towards him (you'll be facing him since the Lux Desync uses a turnaround.) Then chase the IB and shield. If he's good, he'll double jump. Punish accordingly. If he tries to f-air you or air dodge the IB, you get a grab.

If he goes through you:
Stay turned around, as if you were doing the above.
When he f-airs and travels through you, you can either risk getting a grab by reading his landing, or you can just n-air or b-air him OOS."

 

[DeLux]

I enjoy running behind Marth and pivot grabbing his Fairs.

I'm going to move these posts to the MU Q&A though

 

[-LzR-]

All right, so what is this Lux Desynch? The posts in the thread explaining it only have "ask stuff here" instead of telling what it is.

 

[Sieguest]

That's because at the time people were adamant that the Lux Desync was some other already known desync. Lux could give a much better explanation than myself on it so you may want to hit him up on that.

Meanwhile, this may be of some interest:
www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302248

 

[-LzR-]

I have a lot of trouble against MK. I am really terrible at the MU.
Can you tell me what you can do when you manage to shield a dsmash, nado or shuttle loop? Right now I have to let MK go free without punish when he does those moves. Is there any chance at recovering in this MU? How bad is the MU in the current metagame? Any new videos of the MU that show how the MU is played well?

 

[BadKarma]

Against MK's tornado what is the best way to avoid getting shield poked? I've tried running under platforms when my friend uses nado to try to pivot grab it but he has the spacing down to where I can't pivot grab it and I get hit with nado. I've seen 9b do something where as soon as the nado hits his shield he would roll backwards or something and almost never get shield poked. Can I get some tips on how to handle nado better? I hate losing to dair dair dair dair nado lol.

 

[Roller]

Tilt your shield up, learn how long you can hold it for without it getting poked, then spot dodge if you think he will stay on top of you/near you until nado runs out, or roll in the direction you think he will be retreating in at the end of his nado. If they stay on top of you and you spotdodge, it can lead to grabs pretty often, I know Lain always got a lot of grabs like that, and it's one of thee most helpful simple things I picked up from him.

 

[B0NK]

I have a lot of trouble against MK. I am really terrible at the MU.
Can you tell me what you can do when you manage to shield a dsmash, nado or shuttle loop? Right now I have to let MK go free without punish when he does those moves. Is there any chance at recovering in this MU? How bad is the MU in the current metagame? Any new videos of the MU that show how the MU is played well?

D-smash front hit - If you spaced you're DSG and netted a perfect shield off of it, you can shield grab him, if you're not in range for a shield grab then either retreat with jump, dash away, or perfect shield again. What ever you do don't sheild drop and dash grab it, you're shield drop is frame 7, you're dash grab is another 9 frames, in the time he'll be able to d-smash you in the face lol xD (Even with a perfect shield, you're too slow to dash grab, can't remember what frame it'll hit though).

D-smash back hit - Nothing. Just get away from his d-smash range and try to rethink you're approach. (Or just don't approach lol, depends on the timer the the percent you and your opponent is at). Basically unless you are on top of him and you perfect shielded the back hit, (in which case, grab) then just get out of there.

Nado - See Roller's advice. Other than that if you're shield health is too low to bother shielding, then be ready to stutter-step F-smash it, turnaround blizzard, or sometimes pivot grabbing it. F-smash is better for MK's that telegraph their Nado, and saving it for the KO. Turnaround blizzard may just nip them and sometimes get them to accidentally buffer a side-b for a grab. Pivot grab depends on their Nado spacing, but apparently not many MK mains know how to space around IC's pivot grab.

Shuttle Loop - Perfect Shield then up air it. If you don't go to up-air it, then simply chase the glide to stay close to MK. If's he's dumb enough to glide attack you're shield, perfect shield grab it. You're two shield's makes it hard for him to do cross-up glide attack. Also watch for when he doesn't attack it, goes through, and D-smashes or Nados or w/e, since then a whiff grab will hurt... >.< If you're in the air, D-air it since it doesn't have invincibility then. Be careful with the D-air though since the MK can bait it, then hit it with Up-air, Up-tilt and Tornado easily.

Video wise, anything Vinnie, Esam, or Japan will help =P Older matches are also worth a look at, since older main's playstyle's are still very effective, but sometimes different from today's top IC mains. (i.e. Pivot-grab threatening Meep, Shield-happy simple desync trap Lain, Blizzard da bess Kakera, etc.) A nice simple change in pace that'll get you thinking about the effectiveness of playstyle choices you don't see as often today =P

MK is easily IC's hardest match-up, and really test your reactions and desync spacing (sometimes desyncing will just not happen, since blizzards may get you d-aired, and simply because MK mains are watching and spacing to punish it, similar to how we can space and bait tornado to punish it ^_^) Aka takes a lot of experience.

It's really our hardest match-up simply because if our reactions are off by a little, then Nana gets hit whether you perfect shielded or not, and then she's dies. Hopefully you'll be lucky enough to play MK mains that don't know how to punish Nana lol xD (i.e. knowing that their attack will hit her and not you, then immediately following up on her and not bothering with you)

Recovering is simply mixing it up enough lol xD You're side-b is very flexible, and mixing it up with belay will be all you need. Just takes experience really to know which to use, and ice blocks can help as well from above. Sopo shouldn't make it back, but that's more theoretically, you can always at least make it so you'll be DI-ing is next attack. For Sopo learn to get you're mashing perfect so you can stay horizontal for the full distance. It'll be a useful tool for mixing up getting back since you can wait longer to use it that way, and mix it up when you're high above MK, choosing to fall it fast, or trying to land it so you have barely any lag. (Sopo can minimize the lag by perfect landing it similarly to how MK nado and Sync IC's side-b can, it's just a different, higher height.)

Good luck! :D

 

[| Big D |]

Hey so I took your advice on the Pikachu MU and it worked really well, challenged Captian L to a MM and did really well, camped him really, really, hard.

Here's the match if you care.

I have a new question though, what stages and what is the best method for facing a yoshi?
I took him to lylat before and that sometimes works and doesn't, and on YI he gets a lot of slope tricks. I'm thinking of taking him to PS1, so I can hobble on the ground.

I attempted to do the same thing in the Yoshi MU as the pika mu and I think it works, but is there a better way or just something that Yoshi struggles with that I am not using nearly enough?

First game I win, second I go DDD, third I get timed out. I was hoping he exceeded 50 ledge grabs, he had 48

First Game (win)

Second Game (Timeout)

What do I want to do with Diddy's bananas once I have them?

And when a banana hits my shield, what is the safest option? I usually roll backwards and everything resets, but it doesn't actually help, especially since I managed to get him to get rid of his nanas.

 

[-LzR-]

stuff

Amazing. Just amazing. Thank you.
Though I don't have to worry about MKs since he is banned here, but I practice it in friendlies with ppl to learn it in case I ever need it. Finnish MKs aren't anything special, but they can sure make life a hell for an IC player. I cannot recover at all, when I belay, they dodge Nana and then dair Sopo while he is trying to join with Nana and then he dies. SideB easily gets daired and then boths ICs enter freefall. It's kinda hopeless.
Fair also always gets me. The simple but effective Fair -> dtilt thing really kills me as I have a hard time with it. Fair always either pokes me or pushes me closer to the ledge. Is there anything except Blizzard to stop his fair spacing? What about dealing with Fsmash? I shouldn't punish it much right?

 

[Roller]

MKs fair is not safe on sheild. You can grab him if he does it.

 

[-LzR-]

What? What!? WHAT?! For real?
How do I do that :o
It would help me soooo much since Finnish MKs love to fair a lot...