Matchup Q&A: Ask Specific Character Matchup Questions Here

[B0NK]

If they short hop F-airs your shield, drop your shield and dash grab them. Whenever MK SH F-airs then he has to land, he can't jump again like he can for other short-hop aerials he has. This means that after the third hit, drop shield, dash grab his two frame landing lag ^_^

For your recovery problem, don't always recover low, sometimes the best answer against MK if you have to get hit is to get hit from high up so you can DI towards the stage. It's really just experience to know when you can safely belay, etc. It's really all about spacing yourself properly from MK so he can't simply fast fall nair or d-air you.

Also remember, if you save your double jump, and belay to the ledge before using it, even if you get hit out you can double jump > Sopo side-b back =)

Like I said, try recovering in weird ways, and in safer positions so a hit from MK =/= death =P

 

[-LzR-]

Damn B0NK, just make a guide already, your stuff is simply amazing!
How hard is the timing to grab MKs fair to learn? Are you sure he can't Dtilt you out of it if he has good spacing?

 

[Roller]

It took quite a while, and Lord knows how many smashfests of Lain's ****** my recovery to get legitimately good at recovering with ICs.

But yeah, what B0NK said. If they retreat the fair, drop shield->dash grab; if they don't (though I'm sure even the european mks, terrible as they are at the mu at least do that much) you can often just shield grab it.

And that is why you don't see American MKs with any idea of what they're doing in the mu throwing out fair as more than a sparingly used mixup.

The timing is pretty intuitive. He can not dtilt if you time it right.

 

[-LzR-]

All right. That will change the MU a lot for me since I have been walled hard by fair xD
It's also because I tend to drop my shield at the 2nd hit because I forget he isn't Marth. Well that can only fixed by playing moar.
Since your answers are so awesome I'll ask the next thing: What do I do when the MK decides to simply jump around and dair to prevent you from doing pretty much anything? I find it really really hard to do anything since a single dair can put an IC to a horrible position just like that. Can that thing beat Blizzard and should I use it against him in that situation? Does uair beat his dair if you are directly below him?
Do you count his jumps and guess when and where and how he is going to land and punish it with something, preferably a grab?

Damn I'm so bad I can't beat any MK I face

 

[B0NK]

Damn B0NK, just make a guide already, your stuff is simply amazing!
How hard is the timing to grab MKs fair to learn? Are you sure he can't Dtilt you out of it if he has good spacing?

I've thought about it, and still haven't decided, I can really go into a majority of the match-ups in this game in detail and write it out. But I also feel like no one would want to read 1000+ words on each match-up lol xD

Also one last thing about recovering, remember you can save your jump, go low, then rising U-air MK away from the ledge to safely Up-B =P If they shield the U-air on stage then there 7-frame shield drop makes it too sow for them to run off the stage and hit you out of belay =)

Shi- that 4-frame long lasting U-air we have is our best move LOL xD Just never forget about using it =P

 

[-LzR-]

Well then, after I reach the ledge, that's where the real problem starts, how the hell am I going to get away from the ledge? I cannot really immediately do something like nair or ledgehop since Nana wouldn't follow you in that case. Ledge is where I am the worst at with ICs.

 

[B0NK]

Lol and there's why finding a way to side-b back is always better! xD

But why ledge hop? Especially as your go to option? Watch what your opponent is doing at the ledge and think about all the options you have.

After a belay you have Get-up, Get-up attack, Roll, Jump, Ledge Hop Air Dodge, Ledge Hop Sopo Side-B, N-air, Fair, Vinnie's b-reverse Ice Block tech, and also remember the option most people forget, doing nothing. If the MK is simply spacing for your standard options (like charging f-smash) you have time to just wait for Nana to sync up, and allowing you to add sync Side-B to your options =P

There's always a way back, you may guess wrong and have to DI a few hits first and repeat the recovery process, but the goal is to get both Climbers back since we have an easier comeback factor other characters don't have (except Lucario lol xD).

Aka I'm not simply going to be able to tell you every answer for every situation when you grab the ledge, they're WAAAAAAYYYY too many xD;

 

[-LzR-]

That was more than enough of an answer for me. Thanks. I know there is no option that works all the time, it's a matter of mixing it up, but IC are weird with the being 2 issue. I haven't heard of the Popo sideB thing before. Sounds cool, so Popo sideBs to keep opponent busy just long enough to make Nana come back and opponent is forced to GTFO because of the risk of getting grabbed?

 

[B0NK]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFSb0M5gbDU

Watch how Lain recovers in this video, you'll get the idea =)

Like I said, old IC main videos still apply today! xD

 

[-LzR-]

Will do when I have the time to do that.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Amazing. Just amazing. Thank you.
Though I don't have to worry about MKs since he is banned here, but I practice it in friendlies with ppl to learn it in case I ever need it. Finnish MKs aren't anything special, but they can sure make life a hell for an IC player. I cannot recover at all, when I belay, they dodge Nana and then dair Sopo while he is trying to join with Nana and then he dies. SideB easily gets daired and then boths ICs enter freefall. It's kinda hopeless.
Fair also always gets me. The simple but effective Fair -> dtilt thing really kills me as I have a hard time with it. Fair always either pokes me or pushes me closer to the ledge. Is there anything except Blizzard to stop his fair spacing? What about dealing with Fsmash? I shouldn't punish it much right?

I always try to save my double jump to make sure I don't get gimped that easily. Sopo Squall is only useful at a certain height, and pretty punishable no matter what you do while you stay in the air. You can always attempt to learn the super secret technique of squalling perfectly and making it back to the ledge to keep yourself safe. Squalling into the opponent is surprisingly safe as well, most heavy kill moves won't even matter unless you're at a super high percent. Also to return to the stage you should learn Air dodging back on stage from below, since its faily safe as a mix up.

I almost never try to punish Fsmash, its better just to use it as a tool to help read what your opponent wants to do after Fsmash imo.

 

[B0NK]

^^^I'd say SoPo squall is amazing at all heights! :D

Except below the ledge... lol xD

 

[-LzR-]

Sopo squall is pretty much the "get back on stage, get thrown back offstage, repeat until you die" kind of a recovery, but it's better than nothing. Sopo is quite a miserable character

 

[Rubberbandman]

Sopo squall is pretty much the "get back on stage, get thrown back offstage, repeat until you die" kind of a recovery, but it's better than nothing. Sopo is quite a miserable character

Best thing to do is to learn how to space it right to stop them from getting a big punish on you. Or the super secret technique.

 

[-LzR-]

Tell me more.

 

[B0NK]

Best thing to do is to learn how to space it right to stop them from getting a big punish on you. Or the super secret technique.

^^^This

Falling it from the right height minimizes the lag (think like MK's Nado), and also hitting the last hit on the opponent's shield (while drifting away from the opponent) forces them to wait to shield drop (7 frames) to avoid big punishes. Also keep in mind if they're near the edge, you can use the hits from SoPo squall to edge slip them and force them to grab the ledge. When that happens you go unpunished =P And if they are jumping high to edge guard you, use it to fall faster to the ground ^_^

If there's another super secret technique, I don't know about it LOL xD

 

[-LzR-]

Oh that, I was wondering why ppl haven't talked about Squall "auto canceling". Haven't thought of doing that with Sopo. Good stuff, keep it coming guys :o

 

[B0NK]

Probably because the height required is even higher than required for MK Nado's and Sync Squall lol xD

Regardless it's useful to know! ^_^

 

[-LzR-]

Anything else? :o
Stuff like that allows me to not die from Marths fair? That would save my day.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Tell me more.

At the timing needed to auto cancel sopo squall (I think this is the right timing, its near the very, very end of its animation), if you retreat back off the stage, you can grab the edge. Its very risky; but if you can master it, its totally worth it.

And yes, shield pushing people back on the edge with sopo squall is amazing, use it if you know they like to just shield your squall recoveries.

 

[B0NK]

^^^Yeah that timing works

Not gonna lie, complete forgot about that LOL xD It's the best way to stop people who DI into your SoPo squall hits to hit you with a big punish at the end! :D

*Makes mental note to do it more often*

Also against people who like to jump up and hit you with say, Marth's Fair, all you can do it recover from high up so that if you get hit you end up on the other side of the stage, giving you a better chance of making it back to the ledge =P (Great against MK's Semi-spike Up-B hit, since semi spiking to the opposite side of the stage means you get to the opposite ledge sooner)

^^^This is all SoPo stuff btw

 

[-LzR-]

So in short, against Marth, you are ****ed.

 

[BadKarma]

so what is the best way to approach against ROB? Like when he has a big percent lead or stock lead and his goal is to play as campy as possible. I try to play patient but end up almost timing myself out lol. Every time I approach he will do a retreating fair or something and spam crap when I'm far away.

 

[TheSaintKai]

So in short, against Marth, you are ****ed.

No, did you

are you ignoring

why are you




Have you tried implementing what I said? ))):

 

[-LzR-]

No, I just suck. Haven't played for week so haven't had a chance to implement anything.

 

[B0NK]

So in short, against Marth, you are ****ed.

I didn't say that LOL xD Marth's edge-guarding game is just amazing, but realize he does have to commit off stage to either high or low, so you can mix it up between those two.

Once you grab the ledge his amazing at keeping you there as well, and this is true for EVERY match-up for Marth (Metaknight less so, but welp! xP)

And understand that as SoPo you're ****ed regardless if the person knows how to edge-guard his ayuss recovery haha xD Shi- even a Ganon can make SoPo's recovery look like crap lol xD (Not to say Ganon beats SoPo, SoPo isn't THAT unviable! xD; ) As an IC main you just have to recognize quickly the best answer to get back to the stage (against MK getting hit to the other side is sometimes the only option, etc. =P)

And I guess listen to SaintKai about the Marth match-up, I don't want to write another dissertation about Marth now haha xD

 

[TheSaintKai]

And I guess listen to SaintKai about the Marth match-up, I don't want to write another dissertation about Marth now haha xD

I didn't claim to know the whole match up. x)
I did give him some advice about pooping on Marth's F-air though, and I think it's pretty good advice.

 

[B0NK]

^^^Went back and read it, since Fair is half the match-up it was very useful advice haha xD

 

[-LzR-]

Why would Marth even do anything else than Fair in that MU? It's so powerful against ICs.

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

For all the ics mains, out of the following stages, where would you take a skilled pika main to and why? I really need this for a tourney that is coming up (SRT) for reasons that are viable.

FD, BF, SV, YI, and Lylat,

Thank you.

 

[Rubberbandman]

In the order:
FD
YI/SV
Lylat
BF

I would want to reduce the number of platforms pikachu has to camp on, and if no platforms isn't an option, moving platform so I can easily platform cancel to scare him into staying off of them. I've been preferring YI alot more due to it having one solid, low to the ground platform that can sometimes be plat cancelled on. This is best to ask Esam, but I think my order is solid.

Volt Storm can you help me with Japanese, since you're here? ;o

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

I thought about that, but when I play a ics, they usually take me to FD, where I usually win, but the platforms do help. Thanks for the input. What exactly do you need help with? lol

 

[Rubberbandman]

Platforms facilitates Pika's ability to camp with thunder jolt as heavily, as well as giving him somewhere relatively safe to land. Still need to watch for edge slipping, since pikachu is vulnerable to it.

I just want as much help as I can get for Japanese, since I was thinking of possibly minoring in it.

 

[TheSaintKai]

I would take him to FD, then Lylat or Yoshi's, then SV, then BF.
The slanty ground of Lylat allows for downhill dash grabs to grab him out of his d-air, and ****s with his QAC spacing. You can platform cancel and there's like a 1% chance the stage will gimp him for you.
I'm biased towards Lylat though.

He can camp REALLY ****ING HARD on SV and even harder on BF.
Yoshi's has a huge platform that blocks TJ's for you. Easy mode.

 

[Roller]

lol, hey volt. Long time no talk. I think pika gets completely and utterly ****ed by ICs on YI. So.

YI
FD
BF
Lylat
SV

I've written quite a bit about the matchup and my reasons for where I prefer on both character boards, but if you pm me/catch me on the pika xat, I'd be happy to offer you more help.

I'd recommend watching captain L playing the mu, btw.

 

[| Big D |]

I'd recommend watching captain L playing the mu, btw.

How the MU should be played... (Ice climbers)

How it shouldn't

Thanks for the advice roller, I kept all your advice in mind at it helped a ton.

Thank you so much.

And you're right about YI, he had 72 Ledge grabs.

 

[BadKarma]

is there any recent videos of good IC players playing against marth? I can't find any that arnt like 4 years old lol. I'm just having trouble with marths fair and want to see what IC players do to get around it.
Thanks!

 

[| Big D |]

Leon vs Myollnir is a classic.

 

[Roller]

Leon has no idea what he is doing. Neo vs Vinnie is the only recent high level Marth vs ICs vid I can think of. Most of the other top Marths (Mike, KillLock, Zex, etc) don't live near good ICs players.

On second thought, there's a video of Kadaj vs ESAM from a few months back iirc. That would be another.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Esam vs Kadaj
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2E9kT65ra4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1193s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUxBNQhSVOE

Tige vs Mikeneko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XorduuJUNJU

These are the most recent ones I've seen.