Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Ness

[sasook]

Well picking up Zelda as a secondary is only supposed to be useful if you main Sheik

There are others...granted, not many, but there are. XD

 

[KayLo!]

@kaylo i think that type of logic is poor. just for the simple fact that you're getting away from the character and basing things on player exp. Which can be bias at times.

....What? I wasn't discussing anything logic-related or matchup-related. I just said that Ness can be scary when played by a good person, lol.

And that Zelda has a better matchup vs. him than Pika does, which is just the truth. So. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[mountain_tiger]

There are others...granted, not many, but there are. XD

Such as if you main Donkey Kong or Wolf.

 

[Brinzy]

Why is Ness effective vs. Pikachu?


Anyway, do we have any specifics to be talking about here?

 

[KayLo!]

Why is Ness effective vs. Pikachu?

Disjointed range is Pika's worst nightmare. A well-spaced fair beats everything Pika has, so if he's spamming it, all you can do is shield/run away and wait for him to mess up his spacing. And he absorbs tjolt/thunder.... we can still use them in certain situations, but thunder is one of Pika's best edgeguarding/killing tools, so not having it readily available is sad face. And we can't straight-up camp, which is a significant part of Pika's game, unlike with Zelda.

Ness is gimptastic, but all of Pika's high-knockback moves send people out/up or straight up, so with good DI, he'll never be in a gimpable position. Zelda at least has dsmash.

Pika has very little range, so avoiding bthrow is harder than it is with Zelda. SDI'ing out of PK Fire is harder since Pika falls a lot faster than Zelda does. ;-;

It's not that bad, though. 45:55 or 40:60 in Ness's favor (with Pika, not Zelda). I think it's closer to 45:55, but very good Ness players who know the matchup are so hard to win against with Pika. ><

On-topic: ....Eh, there's nothing else I can think of to say atm, lol. As in, I'm too lazy to remember what I do vs. the Ness people I play. x.x Sorry, Kata. <3

 

[smash64]

I use Din's Fire a lot.

They tried to use PSI Magnet a lot.

They lost.

Simple really.

this made me lol

 

[zeldspazz]

Finally another Ness main arrives XD

Cus as you can see, this discussion is going nowhere. Save us?




















Il give you a cookie

 

[MrEh]

Let's just call it 50-50 ane be done with it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Let's just call it 50-50 ane be done with it.

before ness mains speak?

 

[zeldspazz]

Let's just call it 50-50 ane be done with it.

Hey I havent seen you trolling around here lately O.o I almost missed it

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Let's just call it 50-50 ane be done with it.

That's how Bowsers do most of their matchups right?

As for staying on topic, it seems we have said what we've got to say. All that's left to do is to wait if some Ness mains feel like giving their opinions.

 

[Kataefi]

We really need to get some good Ness mains in here >.>

 

[KayLo!]

We really need to get some good Ness mains in here >.>

Afaik, the only really good Ness out there is FOW. Good luck with that.

 

[Uffe]

Hey, OP, where did you get that Ness picture? And is it larger than that? Because I want it! I'm collecting Ness pictures. Now that that's out of the way, here's what's going down.

Ness

Pros

• Great aerial game.
• Regenerative health when necessary. (That being Din's Fire to PSI Magnet)
• Three projectiles.
• Different KO options.

Cons

• Somewhat predictable recovery.

Feel free, anybody who uses Ness or has fought a good Ness to add anything to this list. I'm not trying to Ness sound better than he really is. I honestly can't think of anything else at this point. I may come back and edit this. Feel free to point out more cons if you need to.

Zelda

Pros

• Better ground game and hard-to-DI smash attacks.
• The ability to reflect when necessary.
• Din's Fire goes long range making Ness have to approach.
• Lethal fair, bair and uair.

Cons

• Somewhat predictable recovery.

Same thing. I can't really think of other things to add at the moment. Hopefully someone can add more.

 

[Levitas]

We really need to get some good Ness mains in here >.>

I think it'll be hard to find both of them.

There isn't any really sillly stuff going on in this matchup, I agree that it's pretty even.

 

[MrEh]

before ness mains speak?

And say what? They're the Ness boards. And this is the Zelda boards. What's there to discuss?

lol our recoveries suck

lol our projectiles suck

Hey I havent seen you trolling around here lately O.o I almost missed it

That's because I was banned.

That's how Bowsers do most of their matchups right?

No. 50-50 matchups don't exist for Bowser.

There isn't any really sillly stuff going on in this matchup, I agree that it's pretty even.

btw guys, I was pretty serious that I think this matchup is even.

Both Ness and Zelda are equally terrible. And against each other? Well, both of them can have fun getting gimped a couple of stocks. lol

 

[zeldspazz]

And say what? They're the Ness boards. And this is the Zelda boards. What's there to discuss?

lol our recoveries suck

lol our projectiles suck

I lold so hard

Im gonna sig this ^^

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think this match up is in Zelda's favor aslong as you don't get killed by Pkt2.

 

[MrEh]

I think this match up is in Zelda's favor aslong as you don't get killed by Pkt2.

So getting killed by PKT2...makes this matchup in Ness's favor? That doesn't make sense man.

Why do you think this matchup is in Zelda's favor?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Then your opponent was a moron.

Whether my opponent was a moron or not isn't the subject. The fact is he thought it would be a good idea (Which it wasn't) to CP my Din's happy Zelda.

I got him off the stage and he pretty much totally failed his recovery.

It was a stupidly quick match.

this made me lol

I dunno whether that's a good or bad thing.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So getting killed by PKT2...makes this matchup in Ness's favor? That doesn't make sense man.

Why do you think this matchup is in Zelda's favor?

Range, edgeguard, ko ability are in her favor. It's a pretty simple and straightforward match up. You beat out a lot of his moves with your own. Their really isn't anything ness has on Zelda. PKT2 is like the only thing ness has that makes the match up close.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Range, edgeguard, ko ability are in her favor. It's a pretty simple and straightforward match up. You beat out a lot of his moves with your own. Their really isn't anything ness has on Zelda. PKT2 is like the only thing ness has that makes the match up close.

Fair done right can be very difficult for Zelda to get past last i checked

Ness isn't weak, Zelda aint heavy

both recoveris are meh

Almo did you read any of the pages or are you trying to be Mr.Eh?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fair done right can be very difficult for Zelda to get past last i checked

Ness isn't weak, Zelda aint heavy

both recoveris are meh

Almo did you read any of the pages or are you trying to be Mr.Eh?

I read all the pages. So ness has to approach perfectly with fair so that up smash won't stop his approach. Ness kill moves bair bthrow. Pkt2 has to be watched for also. Other than that he will have a hard time killing you.

 

[KayLo!]

@Legendary: That's scrub mentality at best. More range =/= auto-win, and your other points are debatable.

Ness is faster than Zelda, has a better aerial game, and his fair is legit whether you'd like to believe it or not. Zelda has better KO moves, but Ness has better KO setups. We have the tools to keep up with him, but Zelda doesn't have a clear advantage.

Imo, it's pretty solidly even, and I think that's the opinion of everyone who's taken an objective look at the matchup.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I read all the pages. So ness has to approach perfectly with fair so that up smash won't stop his approach. Ness kill moves bair bthrow. Pkt2 has to be watched for also. Other than that he will have a hard time killing you.

im still not seeing how you think PKT2 is so much of a riding factor on the matchup when its way harder to land than even Fsmash for the kill.
.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@Legendary: That's scrub mentality at best. More range =/= auto-win, and your other points are debatable. Ness is faster than Zelda, has a better aerial game, and his fair is legit whether you'd like to believe it or not. We have the tools to keep up with him, but Zelda doesn't have a clear advantage.

Idk unless his aerial game can beat our ground game then it doesn't really matter. The fact that the fair has to be performed perfectly in order to beat out Zelda means that Zelda will win out more often than not. Range is important because if you're spacing properly that makes things even more difficult for ness.

@jiggly cuz whenever i get hit by it it just changes the match. Also its not that hard to connect with although some of the times i get hit by it is me playing stupid.

 

[KayLo!]

Idk unless his aerial game can beat our ground game then it doesn't really matter. The fact that the fair has to be performed perfectly in order to beat out Zelda means that Zelda will win out more often than not. Range is important because if you're spacing properly that makes things even more difficult for ness.

@jiggly cuz whenever i get hit by it it just changes the match. Also its not that hard to connect with although some of the times i get hit by it is me playing stupid.

So Ganon beats Pika because he has more range? It's important, but since Ness has moves that are faster and also has fair, which isn't that hard to space correctly, I think you're overestimating the range part. Yes, it's a plus in Zelda's favor. But not enough that she just plain beats Ness.

Aerial game is always important. You're not going to be able to spend the entire match on the ground..... if that was the case, Zelda would beat more characters much more often. Also, his fair does beat our ground game.

PKT2 is something you shouldn't be getting hit with unless you get super mindgamed into it or are in a really, really, ridiculously bad position. To give it that much weight in your evaluation of the matchup is just silly.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Realistically, how often do good players get hit by PKT2 anyway?

 

[KayLo!]

Realistically, how often do good players get hit by PKT2 anyway?

I won't say it never happens, but very rarely. It's viable in teams, but 1v1, it's just far too easy to see coming.

He can semi-trap you into it or read your DI and get you with it, but you have to fall for it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Imo, it's pretty solidly even, and I think that's the opinion of everyone who's taken an objective look at the matchup.

I play earthobounders a lot. . . my opinion of the matchup is the SLIGHTEST advantage to Zelda but, really, it's very close to being even.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So Ganon beats Pika because he has more range? It's important, but since Ness has moves that are faster and also has fair, which isn't that hard to space correctly, I think you're overestimating the range part. Yes, it's a plus in Zelda's favor. But not enough that she just plain beats Ness.

Aerial game is always important. You're not going to be able to spend the entire match on the ground..... if that was the case, Zelda would beat more characters much more often. Also, his fair does beat our ground game.

PKT2 is something you shouldn't be getting hit with unless you get super mindgamed into it or are in a really, really, ridiculously bad position. To give it that much weight in your evaluation of the matchup is just silly.

I know i shouldn't get hit by it but i do get mind gamed by it either i think the move has died or its going to die. However I don`t think me getting mind gamed is viable to the match up. I'm pretty sure if gannon had our up smash then he'd beat pikachu and if he aint get CG to hell. But since you brought up pikachu i also think that match up is in Zelda favor even though pika's faster. It's interesting that you used gannon as an example and not Zelda. I guess you we're trying for an extreme to prove your point.

Just because I can't spend the whole game on the ground doesn't mean I should hop around like I'm Tlink either. Zelda's ground game is her strength I'd rather play to her strengths then try for aerials and get put in a bad position afterwards. I think you guys are going overboard on ness fair yes its really good but can be beaten by up smash and or trade with it. I guess its the ness's i'm playing that are lacking but then again who knows?

 

[KayLo!]

All right, I think I'm done here, lol. There's just no point in arguing with a brick wall.

Kata, I think majority said 50:50. I'd really like to hear some more input from the Ness mains, but they so quiet. =X

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

All right, I think I'm done here, lol. There's just no point in arguing with a brick wall.

Kata, I think majority said 50:50. I'd really like to hear some more input from the Ness mains, but they so quiet. =X

**** you told me....

 

[Uffe]

You might want to listen to Kaylo!. He/She put out some pretty good points. Even MrEh put out some pointers without really having to try. Because Ness has a good air game and Zelda has a good ground game. Both recoveries can be edge hogged depending on where they're at. Both recoveries are also predictable. Zelda's takes a little more effort to see where she'll land, but she can only really land in one area. A well spaced fair will do justice on Ness' part, too. Don't think that Zelda's fair/bair is instantly going to cut through it all the time.

Ness has multiple KO options. Nair, uair, bair, dair, Bat, d-smash (if sweetspotted), u-smash (surprisingly), b-throw, PKT2, PKFl and so on. Zelda has fair/bair, nair, dair, uair, I'm sure her back throw can kill and just about all her smash attacks can kill as well, I'm sure. As for PK Thunder 2, I have no idea why that is mentioned. It can kill Zelda as early as +30% if struck if hit close enough and at +85% if hit from afar. The likeliness of it ever hitting is somewhat slim, but not impossible. And this attack overall doesn't put Ness at an advantage. This match up is no doubt even, and a fun one at that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You might want to listen to Kaylo!. He/She put out some pretty good points. Even MrEh put out some pointers without really having to try. Because Ness has a good air game and Zelda has a good ground game. Both recoveries can be edge hogged depending on where they're at. Both recoveries are also predictable. Zelda's takes a little more effort to see where she'll land, but she can only really land in one area. A well spaced fair will do justice on Ness' part, too. Don't think that Zelda's fair/bair is instantly going to cut through it all the time.

Ness has multiple KO options. Nair, uair, bair, dair, Bat, d-smash (if sweetspotted), u-smash (surprisingly), b-throw, PKT2, PKFl and so on. Zelda has fair/bair, nair, dair, uair, I'm sure her back throw can kill and just about all her smash attacks can kill as well, I'm sure. As for PK Thunder 2, I have no idea why that is mentioned. It can kill Zelda as early as +30% if struck if hit close enough and at +85% if hit from afar. The likeliness of it ever hitting is somewhat slim, but not impossible. And this attack overall doesn't put Ness at an advantage. This match up is no doubt even, and a fun one at that.

So now ness has 30 kill options. I'm impressed.

 

[smash64]

i also agree that this match up is even but the rest depends on the players and how experiense they are with this match up, a Ness could make Zelda look like terrible character and Zelda could do the same to Ness its all to the player's skill

 

[Kataefi]

Thanks guys, I'll put this at 50:50 then + or -. That's the general consensus. I'll have the OP written by tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah... if it's not even, it's so close that the better player tends to be the victor . . . and that's, really, how it should be.

All the same. I prefer to fight ness over lucas while Zelda, and that should mean SOMETHING. Then again, against sheik, it's the other way around.

 

[Uffe]

So now ness has 30 kill options. I'm impressed.

That's news to me.

yeah... if it's not even, it's so close that the better player tends to be the victor . . . and that's, really, how it should be.

All the same. I prefer to fight ness over lucas while Zelda, and that should mean SOMETHING. Then again, against sheik, it's the other way around.

Match up ratios are like difficulty settings. You've got the ones you need to put more effort into and then ones not so much. Also, a match up topic isn't necessarily about how well YOU do against the opponent. It's more about what options your character has vs the other character and so on. I could say the MK match up for Ness should be 55:45, Ness just because I know how to defeat MK so easily when it's actually 60:40, MK.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i wonder who would do better if Ness and Zelda fought on Yoshis. :3