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Melee =/= Brawl

|RK|

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Okay, people. First of all, this isn't about the SBR, and this isn't about items. I'm getting kinda off-topic. This is about how WE play, how WE discover advanced techniques, and how WE treat the game. If you don't treat Brawl as if it's Melee, then good, but too many others do, and therefore they miss out on the game. It is to prevent tensions, to make a point and allow ourselves to thrust forward in the metagame, as well as not jump to abrupt conclusions after just one year.

A) I can't invite people I don't know to my house...
B) My school prolly wouldn't, 'cept for anime club, but they suck (they cancelled the Melee tournament and gave the winner of the Brawl tournament a half-eaten bag of chips, even though they could have paid him, since we had to pay two bucks each.)
 

Super_Sonic8677

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@ Falcon: If you don't like the discussion, kindly leave, ^^; You're not helping anyone trying to just tear it down. In fact from the "tone" I get from your posts, you're simply doing it for your own gratification.

RK joker and all those actually participating in this discussion, could you post your thoughts here too?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225847

I think Coreygames idea is awsome. Go around and look for places that you could maybe rent out for cheap or use for free. Make a thread and have people post and sign up on it. Heck, I might even do this myself when I get a job and have some money.
 

Corigames

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A) I can't invite people I don't know to my house...
Uh... oh, you are younger.

:/

Wait, not to abuse the young, but then who are you to debate the complex intricacy of tournament play when you have never run one and now I am assuming haven't participated in one.

B) My school prolly wouldn't
Probably sounds like you haven't asked. To ask a school about video games you need to follow these simple steps:
1. Figure out a good time for a tournament. After school on a school day or on the weekends when there are no other extra-curricular activities going on.
2. Find a teacher who would support you (Don't just rely on math and science teachers, some English and history teachers enjoy video games too) and help you organize it.
3. Explain what the game is and how you plan to run it.
4. Present it to your Principle/Vice Principle/Activities Director/etc. who may head such things.

If that doesn't work, then it was doomed in the first place. One thing to note is that you can set up a video game club. Set an attendance fee and say it is a "fund raiser" but then just use those funds for prize support. This should get around the notion that people are gambling and bypass that rule that schools have.

Secondly, schools aren't you only choice as a high schooler. Are you in scouts, a youth group, or anything else involved in a church? If so, most churches participate in that and will also even support you with food (which is ****ing awesome). If you can't hold it at your house, what about someone else that's interested? I held one tournament at a friend's apartment before (or course he played for free). Like I said before, the library works. Heck, why not set up an online tournament if you have to, there's a whole board for that!

"I think Coreygames ... is awesome."
Thanks
 

|RK|

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Actually, I have been to a tournament. Besides, I do know what they are like at the very least. I know that many of the matches don't go over the time in big tournaments. Like Cot4.

EDIT: I am 15.
 

Corigames

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You must know me from my past life as a Brawl general discussion troll/avid poster. I've been reborn into an everything troll. If what I was before was Kaio-ken x10 then now I am a Super Saiyan. Also, the awesomeguy_smiley got old.

@Joker

The point being is that you don't have nearly any experience yet you are questioning the practices of the current standards. That seems hypocritical. "I don't like your rules and don't think you've taken the time to fully consider them though I have not taken the time to try yours."
 

Super_Sonic8677

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Online tournament rules are the same/very similar to offline tournament rules. Even though I have yet to go to an offline tourny, I've read the ruleset and talk to some people who do. And have participated in online tournaments quite a few times.

Becuase of the reasons why I haven't yet gone to offline tournaments, I don't really keep up with the scene or the listings thread. But if if it's a big tournament he mentioned: like 50 or more people, that's 50 or more chances to see a timer reach the limit. But that's all hypothetical

How much experience is enough experience?

successful trol is succesfull?notreallyatroll?lol
 

Corigames

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Experience, as in, you know, time spent doing something. How can you speak from the perspective of a tournament organizer if you have not organized a tournament. To the same accord, can one dispute the effectiveness of the rules if they've never tired to go beyond theory to test their ideas, even in front of the reasons for the opposing idea's existence?

Also, an online and offline tournament are very different. One requires a place for people to meet, requires face to face interactions and all that's involved with being around other people, a lag-free environment, a more flexible time spam to do the tournament in, and more reliance on the players than the hosts. They are comparable, but the similarities are minimal to the point of debating that you are at least playing the same game.

Lastly, 50 people is more than 50 chances to go to time when you are doing double elimination.
 

Super_Sonic8677

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As far as the organizing goes, I'm the brawl leader of the clan HW. And setting up Clan Wars imo seem very similar to offline tourney hosting. Minus needing space to do it and actually getting to meet people.

You have to talk to the other clan, find out what their terms are, discuss and debate any rules that might need alterring, set up times and dates for the War to occur, figure out who can make it and if there are more than enough who think they can make it, who will be a reserve player(s), talk to the other clan members to see who will face who and managing the scores.

I guess now that I've written that even this isn't really all that comparable to an offline tourney, as it still isn't offline and it's on quite a smaller scale as the most you'll see in a CW is 20 people all together and that's definatly pushing it =/

Lastly, 50 people being more than 50 chances helps my argument, not counters it lol

Though it's not that great a point anyway XD
 

Amazing Ampharos

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There's a real point in here. A less extreme example might make it more obvious.

How many matches have you guys (the people reading this) played on Flat Zone 2? Now, Flat Zone 2 is probably broken yeah, whatever. The point to consider is that it wasn't immediately obviously broken. The risk-reward on walk-offs doesn't play out in an obvious way, and the hazards are all clearly possible to handle. If the stage is broken (and yes, it probably is), it's not because of something you can conclude without playing on it. However, it never got a chance at all... The stage debate actually shows this well. Over many years, melee's stage list evolved to where it is today, and while I'm not sure it's clear they made 100% correct decisions, the process was mostly reasonable. The starting point is "allow everything" with stuff being removed as a consensus built that it was proving broken. In brawl, not many people played more than the first week on every stage; a lot of people either went to the radical extreme of playing only on stages like Final Destination until they got confirmation about other stages being fair (the OPPOSITE of the proper method) or just ruled out a very wide array of stages without really considering them. I confess; I personally ruled out Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2, Spear Pillar, WarioWare, New Pork City, 75m, Mario Bros., Shadow Moses Island, and Temple without giving them much time. I was actually unduly hasty personally with Skyworld in particular (not much less hasty than with the ones I quickly concluded "this stage is obviously broken"), and now I'm crippled in not having good enough stage knowledge on it to be as informed about how fair it is as I could be. However, I think I was one of the most liberal people in giving stages time; it's a bit terrifying how little of a shot people give some stages (by this point I do have dozens of matches on every stage at least...). Stages that are very solid like Distant Planet have been really victimized by this, and even with stages like Flat Zone 2 where we can probably safely say "this won't end up legal", the lack of a chance given to stages like that is basically placing the bar "too high" for what should probably be allowed which, in the long run, is very likely actually hurting the depth of the game.

With the items, it is definitely true that they aren't explored well, but I have actually played quite a few matches with smashballs on and no other items so they can be judged in a vacuum (not voluntarily). I feel confident enough to be able to report this... They really don't balance things out. The Star Fox characters seem pretty obviously completely broken with them on, and they generally treat the cast with a very uneven hand (however good you think Ness and Lucas are with final smashes rates them way too highly; Pk Starstorm is actually WORSE than useless). Items do have to be set one way or another, and given how the initial evidence suggests they're wildly unbalanced and they basically suck all the fun out of the game, I don't really feel bad just forgetting about them.
 

|RK|

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This still isn't a tournament debate :p

And I'm fine with the no items. You've all given be concise, short, and sweet arguments.
 

BentoBox

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So we address every point in your OP and you come back with a "it's not about this, it's about the way we think". How do you expect forgetting about our past experiences will change the current ruleset? Some regions have been more liberal with stage bans (i.e. Texas) and they're progressively coming to the same realizations as most; some stages are simply broken and when abused deter away from competitiveness. Aside from the time limit removal (which is not a feasible option seeing as tournaments CAN'T GO ON FOREVER) what feature is it that we've secluded without much thought? @@AA: Play on those maps now and tell me if you feel any differently about them. It's pretty obvious why we had brushed off most maps a month into brawl: no significant engine change from Melee to Brawl would make us consider similarly broken maps as viable.
 

Melomaniacal

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The people who have no experience in competitive Smash always say we're doing it wrong. Why do we listen to them? If they want to hate us because of their own ignorance, whatever. Ignore them.
 

Melomaniacal

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...

*sigh*

i just dont like where this thread is going
Well, ****. I've been proven wrong.

Forget that last statement I made.

Threads like this should not be made. These topics have been beaten to death, and there is absolutely NO reason to argue over this crap anymore. This thread isn't original. The points made in the blog, or the OP are not new. These are all arguments that have been going on since Brawl came out. We have gone through every possible point that could be made, and the decision has been made. Stop posting these threads.
 

Alus

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no no your fine...

Im just worried that this will turn into a spam/flame thread...
 

Melomaniacal

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no no your fine...

Im just worried that this will turn into a spam/flame thread...
Because it will turn into a spam/flame thread. It has happened countless (countless somehow isn't a strong enough word to describe how many times this debate has occurred) times, and honestly, I'm sick of it.
 

Alus

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Because it will turn into a spam/flame thread. It has happened countless (countless somehow isn't a strong enough word to describe how many times this debate has occurred) times, and honestly, I'm sick of it.
I think it might be long before that D: seeing that no one ever played with items in melee.
 

Oracle

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Lol at items

Smash ball do not balance the game at all. It's kind of like SFIV's Ultra meter. If I'm ahead 2 stocks, 0 to 0 percent, and a smash ball appears, then It'll take me a lot of hits to break it, but it'll only take you one or two hits because it makes it easier for whoever is losing. How is that competitive? Why should you be rewarded for sucking? If it's something like sonic or fox's final smash, then I'm going to lose two stocks easy.

Not even getting into the randomness at all because that's too easy


And Corey's completely right. You have to take stuff you learned from the past games to advance the new game. What if we didn't even try to short hop? Airdodge? It would just take longer to find the stuff out. And Items will always be banned because they are random and randomness should always be eliminated in competitive play of anything.
 

Falconv1.0

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So suddenly, every SBR member (which isn't a think-tank) can think better than each of us? Not saying the SBR didn't think extensively, but give normal people some credit, Falcon :p
Every argument I've ever seen about a rule always ended with "The SBR is right".

So yeah, I'm not just making stuff up. Give me more credit than that.

So we address every point in your OP and you come back with a "it's not about this, it's about the way we think". How do you expect forgetting about our past experiences will change the current ruleset? Some regions have been more liberal with stage bans (i.e. Texas) and they're progressively coming to the same realizations as most; some stages are simply broken and when abused deter away from competitiveness. Aside from the time limit removal (which is not a feasible option seeing as tournaments CAN'T GO ON FOREVER) what feature is it that we've secluded without much thought? @@AA: Play on those maps now and tell me if you feel any differently about them. It's pretty obvious why we had brushed off most maps a month into brawl: no significant engine change from Melee to Brawl would make us consider similarly broken maps as viable.
This is what I was about to point out. We have not been being lazy, the SBR took the time to figure out what worked/didn't. The idea that we are going to make Brawl more competitive with a new rule change is absolutely ludicrous and illogical.
 

Corigames

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tl;dr the thread:
09 poster: Why are the rules like this? I don't think the rules were thought through when we made them.
06-07 posters: Melee was a good game so we took the rules from there and put it on Brawl. It worked fine except where Brawl needed to pick up the slack. Then the SBR took that, tweaked it, and then presented it. It's fine.
08 posters: Dude, like, WTF dude? We did think 'bout that stuff.
09 posters: Orly?
Everyone else: Ya rly!

The end
 

~ Gheb ~

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I agree with the basic idea of the TC and I actually wrote something similar in the tournament discussion. Some items aren't broken and don't need to be banned. They can be made use of though and reward the player with the better stage control (aka more SKILL) without breaking the game. They need some skill to be used well and many of them can be avoided in some way making up for the "randomness."

Sandbag: Doesn't hurt anybody, Blocks attacks if used right
Franklin Badge: Protects from projectiles but doesn't last long and can be knocked off
Banana Peel: Doesn't last long, isn't strong and can be picked up by others
Warp Star: Hard to hit with and risky to use
Food: Doesn't heal much

These are some of the items, that aren't broken. However all of those items are considered in ISP BRAWL already. If you support this project you should try to host events with ISP Brawl or get somebody to do it. I know people, who prefer it to the standard ruleset and it will probably attract some casuals as well so if you support this project you could help your case.

There are also other things that aren't used in competitive play:

- Custom stages:

They add variety. No reason not to allow them...Since there are no perfectly neutral stages in Brawl (except Battlefield) this feature should be taken into consideration

- Different modes:

I started playing heavy mode yesterday and it's really good and can be used competitively from what I've seen. Due to the higher fall speed there's a faster gameplay and also more difficulties when recovering. Very interesting ... more people need to take closer looks at that.

...

The problem is that everybody just keeps on playing by the standard rules without actually exploring the game. This game is about a year old and we don't know **** about it but as soon as somebody posts the AllBrawl ruleset people just go crazy.
Other rulesets need more support and more things need to be played before we can judge about this game.

Good thread, I hope it won't get closed.

:059:
 

|RK|

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;_; My basic idea is generally that we should switch from the Melee mindset to play Brawl. That's really it. Backing this up are the points that we haven't tested items because they were unfair in Melee. Melee was looked over with the benefit of the doubt. Brawl was given whatever Melee had, and therefore our competitive scene is only trying to copy Melee's.

@Falcon: I don't want you in this topic anymore. Because somehow, in the end, you'll be right. Get out, you always do this :p
 

Alus

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Lol at items

Smash ball do not balance the game at all. It's kind of like SFIV's Ultra meter.
WRONG (about the ultra meter)

1. Its a Revenge meter "ultra" refers to "ultra combo" which is the extended version of the super

how it balances the game?

1. It rids of Akuma Hadoken spam. like this

2. its easy to block or dodge

3.you have to TAKE damage to get it.


The smash ball is like a game of hot potato and the one that breaks it gets at least 1 free kill.

ultra meter vs smash ball...

smash ball definitely is broken.

by the way... the person that is obviously better can get a smash ball to... making the situation even worse...

its not the idea that is broken....its just that the item is overpowered and random.
 

AvaricePanda

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People have tested items, but it really doesn't take much testing to realize that items add a randomness factor to the game. Somebody can be rewarded, for no reason, just because a Frankling Badge happened to spawn right next to them. Items are just random. I realize there's ISP, and that's fine for people who want to play with items, but the majority of the competitive community doesn't. A lot of people, quite frankly, just don't like playing with items, like me. It's not fun for me, and I don't like the randomness.

Why does playing with items need extensive testing? Items spawn randomly. That's enough to say, "Hey, it adds randomness to competition and we don't want randomness."
 

|RK|

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No, not necessarily. After all, bananas wouldn't add randomness, or Diddy wouldn't be random. A Franklin Badge would force the player to stop spamming projectiles and THINK their way around it and learn how to use their entire character's moveset better. Face it, some items actually add more skill to the game and make you better for overcoming adversities you otherwise wouldn't face. If someone was getting beaten be the sheer amount of projectile camping, and a Franklin Badge all of a sudden makes them better, then I'm pretty sure the other character should have a backup plan. There are some items that are too random, but others that work out just fine.
 

Alus

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No, not necessarily. After all, bananas wouldn't add randomness, or Diddy wouldn't be random. A Franklin Badge would force the player to stop spamming projectiles and THINK their way around it and learn how to use their entire character's moveset better.
Face it, some items actually add more skill to the game and make you better for overcoming adversities you otherwise wouldn't face. If someone was getting beaten be the sheer amount of projectile camping, and a Franklin Badge all of a sudden makes them better, then I'm pretty sure the other character should have a backup plan. There are some items that are too random, but others that work out just fine.
That is STILL making items overpowered... it screws with playing defensively... entirely kills a default option.(although I admit that its not that much of a bad idea in friendlies... throw in a Deku nut and a Homerun bat and you have a party...)

Though I agree there are some items that don't screw with the game too much... (food exmp)Franklin will mess with the game weather people are spamming or not...
 

Super_Sonic8677

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That is STILL making items overpowered... it screws with playing defensively... entirely kills a default option.(although I admit that its not that much of a bad idea in friendlies... throw in a Deku nut and a Homerun bat and you have a party...)

Though I agree there are some items that don't screw with the game too much... (food exmp)Franklin will mess with the game weather people are spamming or not...
So what if it temporarily kills an option. If the opponent can only win wit teh l@z0rz he fails at the game anyway. And this game is way too defensive. I think of elliminating(if only temporarily) a defensive option as a plus.

At most it would be an annoyance for a short amount of time and then could get back to camping or whatever. Just because it actually has an effect on the game doesn't make it broken.
 

AvaricePanda

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No, not necessarily. After all, bananas wouldn't add randomness, or Diddy wouldn't be random. A Franklin Badge would force the player to stop spamming projectiles and THINK their way around it and learn how to use their entire character's moveset better. Face it, some items actually add more skill to the game and make you better for overcoming adversities you otherwise wouldn't face. If someone was getting beaten be the sheer amount of projectile camping, and a Franklin Badge all of a sudden makes them better, then I'm pretty sure the other character should have a backup plan. There are some items that are too random, but others that work out just fine.
If bananas were added, Diddy's own bananas aren't worth as much.

Yes, it is random. Someone would have to stop camping just because their opponent got lucky and an item spawned next to them. It's random. Most of the community doesn't like playing with items anyway. The people who do, I thought, played ISP.

If most of the competitive community doesn't want to play with items, why should we?
 

Alus

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So what if it temporarily kills an option. If the opponent can only win wit teh l@z0rz he fails at the game anyway. And this game is way too defensive. I think of elliminating(if only temporarily) a defensive option as a plus.

At most it would be an annoyance for a short amount of time and then could get back to camping or whatever. Just because it actually has an effect on the game doesn't make it broken.
problem is:

1. it can spawn near the wrong person

2. it ISNT a short amount of time for how often it spawns on low

but youre right

why try to challenge it?
 

Falconv1.0

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If bananas were added, Diddy's own bananas aren't worth as much.

Yes, it is random. Someone would have to stop camping just because their opponent got lucky and an item spawned next to them. It's random. Most of the community doesn't like playing with items anyway. The people who do, I thought, played ISP.

If most of the competitive community doesn't want to play with items, why should we?
Because from the point of view of a fool you'd think it could open the doorway to a better game?
 

Amazing Ampharos

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@@AA: Play on those maps now and tell me if you feel any differently about them. It's pretty obvious why we had brushed off most maps a month into brawl: no significant engine change from Melee to Brawl would make us consider similarly broken maps as viable.
I have played on these stages quite a bit, and I think a lot of mistakes are made by most people. A "copnsensus" is building toward a list way more conservative in melee that looks like this...

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville

Starter/Counterpick

Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1

Counterpick

Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Castle Siege
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

Counterpick/Banned

Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Jungle Japes

Banned

Everything Else (this is TWENTY-SEVEN stages)

People want to ban stages like Corneria that were widely accepted as legal in melee and really haven't changed much (Mr. Game & Watch gets a little extra abuse, but Ness's broken gimmick was removed and randomness matters less). Stages like Onett that were banned on the final melee list that were highly controversial for many years were banned in a lot of circles with essentially no discussion. The fact that the engine has changed a lot makes that unwarranted (Onett is seriously much better in brawl than in melee). A stage list more like this is seriously completely viable for serious competition (and I have played a decent amount by this point on every one of these stages):

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
PictoChat
Pokemon Stadium 1

Starter/Counterpick

Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege

Counterpick

Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Distant Planet
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Onett
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Brinstar

Counterpick/Banned

Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Skyworld
Green Hill Zone
Big Blue

Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom
Spear Pillar
WarioWare
New Pork City
Summit
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Temple

That's SIXTEEN fewer flat out banned stages. I don't really want this to be about specific stages (though I'm happy to talk about them in other topics), but just look at the greater movement here. The problem here is that those worst stages were basically banned by everyone with almost no discussion. Then they kept going on their banning spree at the rest of the list, stages that have some really legitimate merit to them. They look at stages like Distant Planet and ask "why shouldn't it be banned?" (a horrible question to ever ask). Just imagine how much differently it would have turned out if the people who love banning things had had to fight to ban Flat Zone 2 or even Temple; I think everyone would have the whole game more in perspective. The smash community has a HORRIBLE reputation basically everywhere that accuses us of being too ban happy and questions how much depth smash has and other such things. Stuff like this is a big factor...

It's not just tournament rules I'm talking about here either. Most people refuse to play friendlies on most of these stages (WHY?). Even if you think a stage should be banned in a tournament setting, why shouldn't you be exploring them in friendlies to be more sure about how they work? In fact, there's a very large number of people who only play the majority of their matches on four stages. The connection to the melee way is that most people say that melee eventually became practically about a fairly small number of stages (due to a combination of the best characters getting a lot out of starters and an odd fascination with counterpicking starter stages in general). People just translated this over, and it results in really handicapped experiences. I mean, seriously, I've played people in tournaments who didn't know which stage Green Greens even was... That's just limited experiences, and it naturally leads to a movement to make all of their experiences more like the limited ones they do have.
 

Alus

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problem is:

1. it can spawn near the wrong person

2. it ISNT a short amount of time for how often it spawns on low

but youre right

why try to challenge it?
I just tested the Franklin Badge idea... its horrible... it makes the defensive game in brawl more extreme... people don't even have to actually camp now to camp.How?

It will be kind of a iney-meny-miny - moe type of game deciding who gets to spam... because the one with the Fbadge doesn't have to approach crap...

If both sides have a Fbadge the one that has taken the most damage will have to approach their opponent...
 

Newuser12345215

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
253
that was far after Brawl was released. We banned Smash Balls because they were unfair, yet the lower tiers, the ones that need them, get the better ones, and the higher ups get the worse ones. Have you noticed that? That is the epitome of balance.
Falco is high tier and probably has the best FS. Why is his' the best FS? Because unless the Falco is a bad player, his FS guarantees at least one KO.

It can also KO up to 3 times in one FS(try it in training mode).

It can KO someone while they still have their invincibility frames(as long as they moved once, you can pick them up and lift them off the screen).

Also Snake's FS is good as well. Same with King Dedede's. Those are just a few example from high-top tier lists.

There are only a handful of super good FS and it's equally divided between the tiers.

Low-bottom tier does not "all" have the best FS.

Neither does high-top tier. They're equally divided between the tiers.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Come, now, no insults. As for the Smash Balls, I realize that they are broken... Falco is one of those High Tiers w/ excellent Final Smashes, King Dedede being another...
 
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