Legality Modded controllers in tournaments

[Massive]

Related to Kadano 's controller modification thread, I've been going over this with some friends for a while now and I thought I would attempt to broach this subject in an approachable way.

I will start by stating my position as well as evidence supporting my position.
Reasonably civil discussion will hopefully follow.

Here we go,
I think that no bans or restrictions of any kind should be made for modded controllers.

Reasons

1. All controllers are not created equal. As it stands, some controllers are just better than others. They may be worn in such a way that you can shield drop more easily or the stick just "feels right". Modded controllers let more people have access to controllers that feel good and let them play well.
2. Accessibility is increased. Believe it or not, there are disabled gamers among us. Some of them have disabilities that allow them to interact well with the gamecube controllers, but others (the majority) may not be able to without some technical assistance. Banning controller mods outright reduces how accessible we as a community are to people who may desperately want to participate, but can't do it through traditional methods.
3. You can improve faster. This may be a more selfish reason, but it is a valid one. Modded controllers can make a lot of tech substantially easier. As more people start, the more quickly you can get them into the meat of the game, the more interesting it is.
4. It won't instantly make anyone a top player. Modding makes a some tools more accessible with less practice. A controller mod can't teach you how to use those tools. Melee doesn't have long combo strings that you can macro, you won't win more just because you have a perfect wavedash notch or you can shield drop now more easily.
   
5. Innovation causes the meta to advance. When a lot of people suddenly have access to something that was once out of reach, new stuff gets discovered. There could be smashers out there with tremendous potential who may be stuck on some trivial skill they just can't do.
   
6. It could make our top players viable for longer. It is no secret that smash can take a toll on your hands and wrists. As our top players become more and more able to play the game they love for a living, it's important that they can keep doing so for as long as possible. If we can make it even a bit less damaging for top players to keep going, we'll be able to ensure the continuity of the game for substantially longer.
7. Melee could finally get rebindable buttons. It's been standard on every smash game after melee, and since a lot of our newer players come from smash 4 and pm, it'd be awesome to allow them to participate in a comfortable way.
8. Other fighting game communities are doing it. Games like Street Fighter and Marvel clearly have to ban macros due to the way they are designed, but not unique controllers. Fightsticks and custom pads are a decent sized cottage industry for the FGC at large and offer individuality and another route to fame for up-and-coming people in the community. Building your own sticks is almost a rite-of-passage in some communities.
9. The gamecube controller might not be the best way to play smash. As of now it's the only way that people have ever done well, but is the button layout optimal? Could we devise an even better controller for this game than we're using? If they were all banned anyway, why would there be any incentive?
10. People are already using modded controllers. Many TOs have removed rule references to modded controller legality, and loads of people remove the springs from their triggers or carve notches into their joystick frame. Some people have aesthetic mods (LEDs) or swap sticks out. Where do you draw the line between aesthetic and functional?

I would love to hear some counterarguments.

 

[ECHOnce]

The only commonly stated reason I think you didn't address was the issue of turbo buttons. Unfortunately, I'd imagine this would compromise modded button layouts as well, since it'd be easier to hide things (safer to just ban button modding in general and avoid the situation entirely).

 

[EPsilon933]

Has anyone ever seriously cared about the no controller mod rule? Personally, I've had a slightly modded one ever since Summer 2010. No one cared (All I did was remove the rumble motor to make it lighter. Years later, I swapped out the Gamecube sticks for Wii classic pad sticks. Both change the feel and probably technically function since they help me play better)

 

[-ACE-]

There is no explanation for notches for perfect wavedashes. I have spoke with PPMD personally and he could not give me one. Neither can Kadano. It is a clear unfair advantage. Let me reiterate just how clear and easy to see this is.

I know a lot if you are just theory crafting when you think of the difference a notched controller makes. I have actually notched one years ago, and let me tell you, perfect wavedashes are TOO EASY with a notch.

You have to keep in mind that a notch doesn't just create a new spot for shield dropping or wavedashing, it physically puts you there. Holding the stick against one of the sides of the octagon gate is much harder without a notch. There is not much friction between the stick and the gate, so if you aren't applying pressure almost perfectly perpendicular to the side of the octagon gate, the stick will slide. In contrast, if you have a notch, you can apply pressure in many similar directions and the stick will not leave the notch. This makes the notch a substitute for skill. You will be able to go faster, knowing the maneuver is a given due to the notch. You won't have to focus as much.

The claim that the octagon gate is a misdesign is such a joke. If all GC controllers had circular control stick gates from day one, making an octagonal one would be a clear unfair advantage as well.

Genesis 3 is coming up and I really would like to know if they ban this **** just like genesis 1 and 2 did. But I don't think it will, simply because too many popular players already support this, even though they haven't given the issue ample thought, nor have they ever had any experience putting notches in controllers. They literally say they support it but cannot justify perfect wavedash notches. If I was FOR something, I'd be able to back up my stance. Oh well.

This is a substitute for practice. EVERY CONTROLLER CAN PERFECT WAVEDASH FINE. There is no argument for controllers not made equal on this issue. LEARN TO WAVEDASH YOU NOOB, JESUS.

Here is a post by a highly respected smasher on the issue that I like.

"I don't know why you'd want to legalize custom controllers when we already have a 99% standardization. The FGC has to allow pretty much any type of controller because there is no standard and there are many crossovers between games, but there's no arguing that with the introduction of different controllers, some players have distinct advantages over others in different aspects of the game. I don't think it's right to encourage people to customize a controller around a game, especially when you consider that Melee was designed with the GameCube controller in mind. It seems pretty reasonable that the creators of the game probably didn't want input shortcuts for angling smashes/tilts/recoveries/airdodges. With these shortcuts, you are effectively altering the risk-reward that comes with going for optimal stuff. There is SUPPOSED to be some risk involved when going for a perfect Firefox angle. To customize a controller to circumvent this skill undermines the whole basis of a tournament because players are no longer on an even playing field.

Usually when you bring up "level playing field" in these arguments, people try to say "well you can always customize your own controller", but it seems silly to effectively demand the entire community to alter their controllers to make the game EASIER when we could just ban the 1% of controller mods"

Modded controllers can make a lot of tech substantially easier.

^^ this legitimately cracked me up btw. I AGREE LMAO.

 

[Massive]

The only commonly stated reason I think you didn't address was the issue of turbo buttons. Unfortunately, I'd imagine this would compromise modded button layouts as well, since it'd be easier to hide things (safer to just ban button modding in general and avoid the situation entirely).

The only instances I can see a turbo button being useful are for Pika's jab attack and auto-lcanceling (turbo z would make l-cancelling hilariously easy). Neither of which are really going to break the game if people could do them, I would love to hear some more examples though.

There is no explanation for notches for perfect wavedashes.

This is a substitute for practice. EVERY CONTROLLER CAN PERFECT WAVEDASH FINE. There is no argument for controllers not made equal on this issue. LEARN TO WAVEDASH YOU NOOB, JESUS.

If every controller can perfect wavedash fine, then aren't modded and unmodded controllers equal? Why does the input have to be more difficult to be valid? Other people using a mod does not take away your ability to wavedash, nor does it really make them any better.

There are loads of super technical newbies who still don't win, and it's not because they didn't practice tech enough. There are more factors required to win than just simple practice.

 

[-ACE-]

If every controller can perfect wavedash fine, then aren't modded and unmodded controllers equal? Why does the input have to be more difficult to be valid? Other people using a mod does not take away your ability to wavedash, nor does it really make them any better.

There are loads of super technical newbies who still don't win, and it's not because they didn't practice tech enough. There are more factors required to win than just simple practice.

No, modified and unmodified controllers are not equal, lol. How can you say that when one is in high demand and costs a lot more? The notch physically guides you to the perfect spot as I stated before in detail.

The maneuver being more difficult doesn't make it more valid, making the tech much easier to perform makes it less valid though, in a setting that values competition.

How can you say it doesn't make them better when they receive a clearly unfair advantage?

Last paragraph is irrelevant.

 

[Kadano]

There is no explanation for notches for perfect wavedashes. I have spoke with PPMD personally and he could not give me one. Neither can Kadano.

Of course I can give you an explanation for perfect wavedash notches. They are incisions in the octagon gate that prevent you from entering the bi-directional dead zone, which defaults to cardinal directions, by accident.

Although I suspect that you didn’t mean to ask for an explanation, but for a justification.
There are different views on this subject, and I think it’s ridiculous to believe that one’s opinion on this can be objectively true.
My own thought on this is essentially that the bi-directional dead zone is mostly a bug or a result of programming lazyness. If they would have programmed it so that leaving one direction’s dead zone disables the other direction’s dead zone as well, there wouldn’t be this problem of accidentally overshooting when aiming for ±18° at all, and we would have even more directions for air dodges and recoveries. If they intended to have the dead zones work like they do, they could have added some leeway so that the lowest quarter of the dead zones each are read as the minimum working angle each (so for example 15° would be read as 18°).
I'd say the difficulty in not overshooting into cardinal is less intended behavior at all than a result of countermeasures against stick drift in neutral position and would-be difficulty of attaining cardinal angles.
The octagonal shape only contributes to this (unnecessary, but unchangable for us) software problem by leading your stick away from the "perfect" angles.

A rounded gate (which happens with wear eventually too) neutralizes this bad hardware influence from the octagon gate. A hybrid gate provides tactile feedback for not accidentally entering the bi-directional dead zone areas.

It is a method of dealing more consistently with software limits that are in this game because the programmers didn’t create this game for the highly competitive scene we have now. Its severity is equal to things like holding down a shoulder trigger when plugging in or resetting the controller – doing so lessens the risk of spending one frame within analog shield zone when intending to powershield. (ADT-PS is significantly worse than N-PS.)
In effect, these two mods do very similar things. The main difference between them is that proper octagon gate modding takes much more experience and time than holding in your shoulder button while plugging in your controller.

The current rules forbid adding functionality that does things with one button that usually require more than one. I wonder how you would word a rule that bans octagon mods, and which other modifications it would ban too.

 

[-ACE-]

Of course I can give you an explanation for perfect wavedash notches. They are incisions in the octagon gate that prevent you from entering the bi-directional dead zone, which defaults to cardinal directions, by accident.

Lol, I approve of the sarcasm. Of course I meant an explanation for use of a mod that makes advanced techniques easier to perform in a competitive setting. Let me just remind you that if you make a mistake, in this game, by accident, it is not the controller's fault. If you were better at the technique, you wouldn't have accidentally entered the dead zone. This mod makes it so that people who haven't mastered wavedashing can do the most difficult angle virtually every time. I see the fact that it defaults to the cardinal directions within that range as part of the game, not a misdesign. Labeling it a misdesign is one opinion, and it is being used as justification for some of the "iffy" mods attached to this new controller modification movement.

Although I suspect that you didn’t mean to ask for an explanation, but for a justification.
There are different views on this subject, and I think it’s ridiculous to believe that one’s opinion on this can be objectively true.
My own thought on this is essentially that the bi-directional dead zone is mostly a bug or a result of programming lazyness. If they would have programmed it so that leaving one direction’s dead zone disables the other direction’s dead zone as well, there wouldn’t be this problem of accidentally overshooting when aiming for ±18° at all, and we would have even more directions for air dodges and recoveries. It’s not intended behavior at all, it’s an accidental result of countermeasures against stick drift in neutral position.
The octagonal shape only contributes to this (unnecessary, but unchangable for us) software problem by leading your stick away from the "perfect" angles.

A rounded gate (which happens with wear eventually too) neutralizes this bad hardware influence from the octagon gate. A hybrid gate provides tactile feedback for not accidentally entering the bi-directional dead zone areas.

It is a method of dealing more consistently with software limits that are in this game because the programmers didn’t create this game for the highly competitive scene we have now. Its severity is equal to things like holding down a shoulder trigger when plugging in or resetting the controller – doing so lessens the risk of spending one frame within analog shield zone when intending to powershield. (ADT-PS is significantly worse than N-PS.)
In effect, these two mods do very similar things. The main difference between them is that octagon gate modding takes much more experience and time than holding in your shoulder button while plugging in your controller.

The current rules forbid adding functionality that does things with one button that usually require more than one. I wonder how you would word a rule that bans octagon mods, and which other modifications it would ban too.

Obviously it is the tactile feedback that is the whole problem. That IS the advantage. Tactile feedback = your brain saying "Ah, there's the perfect spot, right when my thumb's right there...." when you slide the stick until it falls into the notch. And then it keeps you there, regardless of having shakey hands, or lacking the precision with your thumb to keep it there without a notch, or any other reason why people haven't mastered the skill or can't perform it consistently. So it drastically narrows the window for error on one of the most basic (yet advanced) techniques in the game.

Games are designed by humans. Nothing is going to be perfect. But melee, AS IS, is nearly perfect for competitive play. This dead zone is something you have to avoid, just like you avoid getting grabbed vs Ice Climbers. It takes skill. It is a skill everyone has tried to master since day 1, and this mod allows you to focus more on other techniques. How is that not a substitute for practice again?

I must also say that it takes quite a while for an octagon gate to become rounded. I don't plan on supporting a rule on controller up-keep. If the gate gets a little rounded over the years, or a spring breaks, so what? Forcing someone to buy a new controller when their old, unmodified one that they like still works just seems silly. I only have a problem with intentionally putting notches in to make techniques easier to perform in tournament.

I would literally state the rule "No notches for perfect wavedashes" it's literally that easy. Then leave it up to the gentleman's clause. If someone is fine using a normal controller versus someone with a controller w/free wavedash notches, they play. But they can also get a TO if they wish to be on an even playing field, which is a requirement for true competition.

 

[Kadano]

I would literally state the rule "No notches for perfect wavedashes" it's literally that easy.

Hmm, I kinda question the effect that wording would have. "No, these notches are not for perfect wavedashes! They are for perfect up-Bs and airdodges!” – "Oh, okay, you’re fine then." =)

On a more serious note, I understand your arguments of course, and I think they are solid. I just personally think that the arguments to the contrary, which Massive summed up nicely, weigh heavier.

 

[-ACE-]

Lmao, well I don't really like the thought of extra notches at all (although imo small parts of the argument for shield drop notches do in fact hold water), but I see your point. The gentleman's clause will take care of that though imo.

Perhaps I have an "old school" outlook on this, and value a true and fair competitive setting more than most players. But I don't see that as a bad thing.

On a LESS serious note, with perfect wd notches, YEAR OF LUIGI CONFIRMED.

 

[Massive]

I don't think I'll be able to convince you either way, -ACE- but thank you very much for contributing a counterpoint to the conversation.

 

[SAUS]

So far, I don't know how much it would matter, but if the meta were to advance to where modded controller are required to compete might make it a little stupid. As is, at least controllers are essentially capped in how good they can be. You're also basically hurting your own performance by not using a modded controller because you may be less consistent at some techniques without one. "Forcing" (loosely/inderectly) everyone to buy new controllers or get people to mod them could start a big wave of annoying stupid stuff as well as a giant barrier to entry (oh you shouldn't use that controller - it needs to be upgraded by random members of the community).

Really, though, I don't care that much. I don't think modded controllers would have a huge impact on a player's performance. You might win one super close call, but those usually get decided by peoples' nerves. Modded controllers aren't to the level of "press this button to do a perfect wavedash". You still have to do all the timing and the notch won't save you from that. You can also miss the notch or get the wrong one in certain situations (under lots of stress).

 

[Pauer]

I would argue that the notches don't even give that much of a benefit in the average match. Even in high level play, the amount of times where having the 18° notches will help you in a situation as opposed to not having the notches is minimal.

There is a reason why we haven't seen all top players use extremely narrow firebird angles. For some there may just be more fundamental things to practice.

For example, you might practice the earliest timing to dash after a ledgedash instead. Consistently dashing 1-2 frames earlier may already compensate for not using the most horizontal angle. Combined with the risk of airdodging straight onto the stage if you fail, it may just not be worth practicing the 18° angles.

That tells me that at the peak of the game where everything is optimized to a ridiculous extent, it can still better to practice fundamentals or prepare for a certain opponent than to emulate what the notches do.

At the same time I don't want to discredit their usefulness. I can see how the notches can help especially psychologically like making you feel more comfortable on the ledge.

Of course I want those notches for my controller . I'd be dumb not to want them because having them is objectively superior to not having them.
Nevertheless I think we should stay realistic about just how many times having those notches and only having those notches will let me win a situation.

How many times if you wavedash back would you avoid a hit only if the wavedash is max or close to max distance? If you expected the attack anyways might it not have been better to wavedash back earlier and at a less horizontal angle so you have more time to punish?
How many times will only the most horizontal angle let me sweetspot the ledge as fox?

I think an analogy between shoes in sprinting and controllers in melee might be justified.

There are your average shoes you can get for 10-20 euros that are not suited for running competitively. Those are your third party controllers.

Then you've got the standard, robust no-name running shoes. Most sprinters will never need anything else.

Then there are some expensive running shoes. They are customized to your feet and have better grip(or something like that). Kadano's mods offer customization and an objective advantage (grip) .
Only top athletes really need them. Still, many amateur buy them just because they offer a slight advantage.
I think it might turn out to be the same here.

Only that anyone can make basic notches themselves with a 4$ triwing.

 

[CAUP]

Pauer , I don't think you realize how useful perfect wave dashing really is. It is extremely useful as it is exponentially better than normal wave dashing (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, the difference is significant though). I can think of several situations where being able to consistently perfect wavedash is VERY useful. Usually pushing moves out of shield.


Legalizing modded controllers, as nice as the format of the OP's post and the cuteness and appealing quality of his or her rhetoric is, is INSANE v_v I understand modifying natural aspects of the GameCube controller, like notches or placing weaker triggers or stuff like that. Modifications to the shell of parts. I understand that. But as soon as the hardware gets changed... that's absurd. That would allow insane advantages to those who use certain modifications. If you had a mod that allows a button to be held down and act like it is being mashed, Peach could jump cancel land continuously. If she did this while holding shield, she could probably automatically power shield the majority of projectiles if not all of them. Yoshi having a button that just lets him parry over and over.... No. Having buttons which allow some character permanent invincibility on the ledge. Kirby can remain fully invincible. If the only way to beat Kirby was to steal the ledge (when a single mistake is a KO from slallowcide), Kirby suddenly becomes a gimmick, semi OP character. Not to mention peach, fox, captain falcon, young link. Continuos hax dashes would literally ruin the game >_< The camping would be obscene.

Modifying hardware is not a feasible thing. As soon as TOs saw how broken they were, that would be the end. And you brought in people with disabilities! What TO in the universe wouldn't allow someone with a disability to use a custom, fair controller?!

This sort of thing would provide absurd and game breaking benefits to some people. This is not a good idea. At all. The notches and stuff like that is debatable. Hardware modifications are not.

Edit: Maybe not talking about hardware? Maybe? It is honestly unclear reading the original post
Edit 2; Nevermind, modifications of any kind...

 

[-ACE-]

Pauer If there was a magic switch that changed all STANDARDIZED running shoes into ones that had a special type of grip that is absolutely unmatched, and the switch had always been there and people simply chose not to switch it on, because no one had done it before and some saw it as unethical from a competitive standpoint, and people all of a sudden started flipping the switch and saying "this is how the shoes were meant to be, the alternative requires excess practice due to an engineering flaw", then the example would more accurately account for the physical assistance provided by extra notches in ideal places, and thus more accurately describe the situation.

 

[Massive]

CAUP as much as I appreciate you contributing to this conversation, I think you're overreacting a bit.

We are already able to perform inputs at the maximum possible speed through TAS techniques. If it were possible to perform basically game breaking actions through repeated inputs, no matter how complicated, people would already be doing it. People are still going to be limited by their reaction time and their understanding of game mechanics.

Additionally, there is already a rule in place to prevent stalling matches. I have honestly never seen it enforced in my 10+ years of competitive play, but if stalling became a problem i suspect it would be.

Also, It should be know that I'm not directly advocating the use of complete macro controllers here anyway, I'm mostly addressing the idea of simplifying unnecessarily difficult technical actions through controller mods. I think the vast majority of mods are going to be very simple and basic, but we could seriously end up missing out on some very interesting shifts in the meta if we ban hardware mods sight unseen.

Modifying hardware is not a feasible thing. As soon as TOs saw how broken they were, that would be the end.

I'm not trying to start a semantic argument with you here, but modifying hardware is a completely feasible thing (it happens all the time). You are arguing that it's not a good thing and I think it's a valid point to make.

And you brought in people with disabilities! What TO in the universe wouldn't allow someone with a disability to use a custom, fair controller?!

It's not the TO that is the issue here. Removing the possibility of custom hardware being used by banning it means that there is no incentive to develop custom hardware to begin with. If someone is disabled and can't play our game because no controllers exist that they can use, they may not have the means to make one themselves.

 

[Pauer]

I don't think you realize how useful perfect wave dashing really is. It is extremely useful as it is exponentially better than normal wave dashing (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, the difference is significant though). I can think of several situations where being able to consistently perfect wavedash is VERY useful. Usually pushing moves out of shield.

Even out of shield I don't see that to be true. First off, if you punish an attack for hitting your shield, time is usually the limiting factor not distance(given that you wavedash)

I can however imagine it being beneficial for movement OOS when dealing with falco laser pressure or other projectiles.

Then again I hope you can see how there are very few situations where doing exactly a max distance wavedash will change the positioning in such a way that the outcome of the situation changes.

Pauer If there was a magic switch that changed all STANDARDIZED running shoes into ones that had a special type of grip that is absolutely unmatched, and the switch had always been there and people simply chose not to switch it on, because no one had done it before and some saw it as unethical from a competitive standpoint, and people all of a sudden started flipping the switch and saying "this is how the shoes were meant to be, the alternative requires excess practice due to an engineering flaw", then the example would more accurately account for the physical assistance provided by extra notches in ideal places, and thus more accurately describe the situation.

I see it the following way:
The international sports organization released standardized shoes for all running sports.
The international sprint organization however uses a cheap kind of rubber for which the standardized shoes work very well on generally but you can get more grip using the special-laced shoes.
You can lace the shoes using a home-remedy but some experienced people have mastered the lacing process and offer their craft for about 100$ per shoe.

But honestly analogies only go that far.
My main point was that it enables pros to do very situational things more easily.
However the average smasher isn't that good at judging:
A.) when exactly only the 18° angles can solve a problem or produce a meaningful new option in a certain situation
and B.) whether he is in that position (lacks precise control over character and feeling for character )
So I don't see too much of a benefit towards average smashers.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah i certainly haven't thought of what I would consider a perfect analogy.

 

[CAUP]

No, there are many, many situations where a max distance wave dash is VERY useful. I know that Kirby can punish f smash on shield against Matth ONLY with a perfect wavedash. I am not positive but my brother is a ganon main and I think there are similar situations with Ganon. Ace can check me on that. Getting somewhere faster helps you save time >_> I don't know why that needs to be said.



Honestly I'm not overreacting and I over react a lot. The things I listed that would be broken are all possible at TAS. Are you saying we can play at TAS levels because that is wrong. If peach could press jump 30 times a second, which would be possible through this, then she would be broken. That is outside the realm of human mashing and so is not possible. Your argument here is very silly and objectively wrong. Some things are impossible for humans to do no matter how much they want to.

This sort of ledge behavior would be considered camping, not stalling. Stalling is fundementally making the match unplayable. This is not. The ledge can always theoretically be regained.

Semantics.

I don't see how opening the modding of controllers would give people more incentive to make modded controllers when the modded controllers in question are currently fine to use in tournament.

 

[SOM1]

Modded controllers could be added as an addendum under the Gentlemen's Agreement rule. Seeing as there are many differing opinions on it and modded controllers can be viewed as a luxury in tournament play, is it out of the question to say someone who owns a modded controller should also carry an unmodded controller to tournaments in the case of an opponent who is against having modded hardware?

I guess you could then argue that if you practice long enough on a notched controller versus vanilla that you would end up performing worse than if you hadn't had the modifications in the first place, but what would I know. No one has any solid data on that fact, but we can all agree playing on a controller other than the one you practice with can affect performance.

I'll stand neutral, but part of me really wants to see an influx of high level matches use this kind of stuff to it's full potential. If having the notches doesn't affect our performance from switching to an unmodded controller save for less perfect wavedashing, wavelanding, and sweetspot up b's and whatnot, what stop s us from asking our rival in bracket, "Hey, you good with me using this controller, or nah?"

 

[-ACE-]

I'll add, although this is a small point, that one very prominent mistake in melee is over committing in neutral. Having the maximum length backwards wd on tap would certainly avoid punishment more often than a human TRYING to perfect wd back. Keep in mind, without notches, people aren't even hitting the second longest wd all that often either. It certainly helps, and I don't think situations like this are all that rare.

This mod will also help some characters more than others. It will benefit characters that wd more in today's meta. It will benefit characters with better wavedashes. It will benefit spacies for tricky recovery angles. It will benefit sheik's, pikachu's, zelda's and mewtwo's recoveries. A controller with notches at NNW and NNE give you perfect survival DI notches for falcon knee and the many other moves whose knockback trajectory is out and slightly up. It will benefit people who haven't learned how to become consistent at these techs.

There are certainly other things that would change melee much more drastically, but this would (will) certainly change the game to an extent.

 

[Blea Gelo]

honestly, and respecting everyone's oppinion. i believe having a modded controller it's unfair and should be banned from tournaments.

i agree with all of ace's statements. like, idk. think about it.

A lot of times, some games are won or lost bc of a really little margen, and that margen could easly b the modded controller. Many top skill players are using these yes, but i do not believe it's legal. also, many people do not have the resources to actually get those ( not my case even tho i decide not to get ome bc i feel it's unfair) so if a player that do not have this resources has to play a player that does ( and has the modded controller) isn't that already a disadventage ( this is just another point added to the many points added in favor of my oppiniom to this thread)

it is a really delicated thing. But if i would be a TO, i would forbid this controllers for my tournament series for sure.

 

[-ACE-]

Blea Gelo I hear you. It helps people skip a major step on the road to being a high level player.

 

[Bones0]

Point-by-point breakdown of why modded controllers shouldn't be legal:

1. They compromise the integrity of the game

This community competes in Super Smash Bros. Melee. We have been lucky enough that we have made it as far as we have without having to change hardly anything outside of the game. We have a stage/character selection process that is simply necessary, and we have bans on a small handful of techniques that are almost unanimously agreed upon. Everything else is straight off the presses from Sakurai. When you go to a Melee tournament, you will never hear complaints from a casual Melee player except perhaps about stages/items, which are in-game options. As soon as you start modding anything, you're no longer playing the same game.

With the rise of Melee modding and 20xx, we have just barely scratched the surface of modded gameplay with neutral spawns. In singles, this has almost no impact outside of the initial spawns not matching the respawn locations normally, but this provides no substantial benefit to either player. In teams it makes a much larger difference, but the default spawns are so problematic I doubt anyone would consider it unfair. Without trying to sound too melodramatic, I hope we can keep this beautiful game free of the corruption of 3rd parties. I don't trust anyone, including myself, to be responsible for the balance of the game. Any mod, controller or otherwise, will alter the balance of the game. Making certain techniques easier CHANGES THE GAME. To allow modded controllers is to accept that PLAYERS should be allowed to change the balance of the game's mechanics and impose these changes on others.


2. They provide an unfair advantage

I think it's important to point out that cosmetic controller mods such as painting the controller or removing rumble packs have no real impact on gameplay. The mods we are talking about enhance a player's ability to play effectively, efficiently, and consistently. A player with a controller mod has a significant advantage over players without a mod. Some people may say the difference is negligible, but if that were true then why would they bother to have the mod done in the first place? Whether small or large, the benefit is there. The difference between turbo buttons and control stick notches becomes semantical. The issue with both of them is they enable a player to play abnormally above their usual mechanical skill level. They go against the spirit of the game which is to practice for precision, not design a tool outside of the game in order to receive immediate benefits inside the game.


3. Accessibility

Legalizing mods may not immediately cause a large portion of players to switch controllers, but with time it's only inevitable more and more pros will resort to mods in order to keep up with other top competition that uses them. Having perfect shield drops, wavedashes, ledgedashes, etc. can have huge impacts at high level where the game is pushed to its limits and each frame and inch of spacing can mean everything. With this increased necessity to have mods, players will feel forced to mod or purchase mods for their own controllers. This means new players are discouraged from joining the scene because it adds an arbitrary barrier to play on even ground. Anyone with a GameCube, Melee disc, and out-of-the-box controller should be able to compete. They shouldn't have to download 20xx. They shouldn't have to buy or build an expensive custom controller. They should be able to play the way players have been for nearly 14 years.


4. The Slippery Slope

No, this is not a fallacious argument. Once you open the floodgates for controller mods, the line between what controllers are legal and which ones aren't becomes totally arbitrary. If a player is allowed to use non-standard control stick notches, another player will want to use non-standard button placement or button mapping. These things only exacerbate the issues above. Personally, I don't see the appeal in allowing players to get huge advantages over others because they built a fightstick that allows them to easily hit all of the buttons and both sticks at the same time. This slippery slope effect won't just occur on a player vs. player level, but at a real life, tournament level. A TO who decides to ban a certain mod or controller scheme is at a significant risk of getting less attendance. If Armada is choosing between two tournaments and he uses a turbo button, I'm sure we'll see TOs sell out on their principles really quick to get Armada to their tournament, especially since a lot of TOs are not avid competitors who will have to deal with the mods directly. I don't mean to put Juggleguy on blast, but him legalizing wobbling is a perfect example of how the community influences rulesets. With this kind of open-source environment, even radical mods can become standard due to the tendency of TOs to allow anything and everything to boost attendance. Even if you think controller notches are awesome and wish they were standard, hopefully you can realize the flaw with allowing them and accept that standard Melee can't incorporate them.


5. Regulation

With an increase in controller mods, determining which are even legitimate for tournament use becomes extremely difficult. Even if everyone agrees turbo buttons and macros are illegal, it would be very easy to implement them in ways that are hard to detect even when the opponent tests the controller themselves.


Conclusion

I tried to break down my arguments as broadly as possible to cover the most common arguments I see. If you feel there's a specific argument for mods that none of these points address, I'd be glad to expand on my perspective. I understand the desire to increase one's ability at almost any cost. It is a sign of the drive to improve. However, like with coaching, there is a difference between trying to improve your own gameplay vs. trying to improve competition. If we allowed coaches to whisper in a player's ear throughout a game, they will certainly play better than they would on their own, but when both players are resorting to this, is the quality of the competition improved? Not at all, it's actually diminished as it simply takes less skill to have a coach by your side at all times than it does to work things out on your own in the moment. The same concept holds true for mods. Yes, I'm sure you'd love to have a controller that allows you to do all sorts of magical tech skill, who wouldn't? But when both players are doing it, all we will have accomplished is dumbing the game down, not just in terms of technical difficulty, but in terms of complexity of options. The risk-reward of going for difficult vs. easy options is a huge part of the human element of Melee, and introducing mods that circumvent good training and serve as shortcuts to solid mechanics removes that element from competition.

Deep down, I'm sure we all have a part of us that wants to see TAS level tech skill all the time, but I also think seeing it would be cheapened by the knowledge that it was only due to outside assistance. When I see a player perform a clutch perfect ledgedash or empty pivot utilt, I want to be able to appreciate the player's skill and guts necessary to use such a tool when it matters most. If that means I have to grind my perfect wavedashes every day for the rest of my life and still be less consistent than with a modded controller, then so be it.

 

[Scroll]

I want my opponent to be as scary as possible.
Hook the controller up to your brain and control your character with your thoughts
Hell he could have a computer play in his place and I still wouldn't care.
Optimal SDI everytime. 100% accuracy powershields. Multishines for days.

I certainly would not want to play this way, but I have no problems with my opponent having an advantage over me.
Everything has a counter. And it's the choises that you make during the match that determines the winner. Not brute force tech skill alone.

One of the things I hate the most is watching a set end with someone air dodging off the stage, missing the firefox angle or anything as a result of a tech flop.

 

[-ACE-]

I have no problems with my opponent having an advantage over me.

This is essentially the mentality of a casual melee player. A player with a competitive mentality wants to know that when he wins a set, it's SOLELY because he was BETTER than his opponent in that set. You cannot determine who is the best player when players are not on a even playing field.

Everything has a counter. And it's the choises that you make during the match that determines the winner. Not brute force tech skill alone.

There is no inherent "counter" to this modification. Nothing can be done in-game to make up for your opponent receiving outside, physical assistance for his AT's. Saying that decision making wins games is irrelevant.

One of the things I hate the most is watching a set end with someone air dodging off the stage, missing the firefox angle or anything as a result of a tech flop.

All that person has to do is practice the techniques that he/she cannot preform well. This is why skilled players are so well respected. Consistency is rewarded with respect because we all know how difficult it is to be consistent. They didn't skip any steps on the way to becoming technically sound. They worked hard, paid their dues, and 100% earned their abilities.

 

[Scroll]

This is essentially the mentality of a casual melee player. A player with a competitive mentality wants to know that when he wins a set, it's SOLELY because he was BETTER than his opponent in that set. You cannot determine who is the best player when players are not on a even playing field.

Take F1 racing for an example. Yes they have regulations, but they all keep pushing the boundaries of what's physicaly possible in order to gain an advantage on the "Even playing field" called theracing track.
If you want a true even playing field we could only play ditto matches.

There is no inherent "counter" to this modification. Nothing can be done in-game to make up for your opponent receiving outside, physical assistance for his AT's. Saying that decision making wins games is irrelevant.

But there sure is an answer to ALL said enhanced, in-game techniqes they provide.

All that person has to do is practice the techniques that he/she cannot preform well. This is why skilled players are so well respected. Consistency is rewarded with respect because we all know how difficult it is to be consistent. They didn't skip any steps on the way to becoming technically sound. They worked hard, paid their dues, and 100% earned their abilities.

Lemme repeat what you just said. "ALL that person has to do..."
You still see the so-called Melee Gods, the most respected melee players of all, miss ledge dashes, firefox angles and other tech resulting in SD.

In my opinion aiding people in the technical aspect of the game will do nothing but improve it as a whole.

 

[-ACE-]

Take F1 racing for an example. Yes they have regulations, but they all keep pushing the boundaries of what's physicaly possible in order to gain an advantage on the "Even playing field" called theracing track.
If you want a true even playing field we could only play ditto matches.

I'm not familiar with f1 racing, so I don't know what the rules are, or to what degree the vehicles or rules have been standardized.

Every character is available to every player to choose. Choosing not to wd isn't the same as being forced not to wd. The "even playing field" has not been disturbed.

But there sure is an answer to ALL said enhanced, in-game techniqes they provide.

Irrelevant. This is basically saying an athlete that's clean can beat an athlete on steroids. It doesn't come close to addressing the issue of receiving physical assistance when performing AT's.

Lemme repeat what you just said. "ALL that person has to do..."
You still see the so-called Melee Gods, the most respected melee players of all, miss ledge dashes, firefox angles and other tech resulting in SD.

It is true, all melee players are human, and therefore, imperfect. Utterly irrelevant.

In my opinion aiding people in the technical aspect of the game will do nothing but improve it as a whole.

Would you like to see all athletes on steroids because the games would be more enjoyable to watch?

I realize the effects of steroids vary and would more than likely help an athlete more so than a notched controller would help a smasher, but I still feel it is a good example in some of the more simplistic aspects of this issue regarding the receipt of an unfair advantage.

 

[Massive]

Bones0 , I believe we have found a philosophical difference in what we believe to be the spirit of the game.

They go against the spirit of the game which is to practice for precision...

To me, the true core of what makes smash so awesome is that even at a rudimentary level you have people mentally outmaneuvering each other to win. It's a fluid, freeform interaction that pits opponents (when they are of relatively similar skill
levels) in a battle of prediction and execution. I wholeheartedly believe that while execution is important, most people win because of their ability to reason quickly and effectively, and at times it's VERY hard to train that because of barriers in execution.

...not design a tool outside of the game in order to receive immediate benefits inside the game.

The game does not prevent you from wavedashing perfectly or shield dropping easily, our completely arbitrary selection of controllers and controller layout does. We did not follow the developers intentions in making smash a competitive game, why is the idea that our controller is the only way to play so sacred?

We are imposing an artificial limitation on how good people can get based on their input selection, and that's just silly to me.

Innovation and a really, really great community have kept this game going as long as it has and I think deciding to restrict people trying to innovate again is counter to what our community is.

That's just my viewpoint though. I am not going to condemn anyone for their reasons of liking smash competitive or otherwise, I do just honestly feel like we're limiting ourselves when we decide to only allow players one method of improving.

 

[Scroll]

This is basically saying an athlete that's clean can beat an athlete on steroids. It doesn't come close to addressing the issue of receiving physical assistance when performing AT's.

Steroids are irrelevant. Sure they give you the upper hand in performing with a quicker improvement rate, but they also, and this is why they are banned, can be very harmful and or even lethal.

Custom notches on the other hand comes with no apparent health risk and only directly improves your success rate of specific technical execusions.

Would you like to see all athletes on steroids because the games would be more enjoyable to watch?

I realize the effects of steroids vary and would more than likely help an athlete more so than a notched controller would help a smasher, but I still feel it is a good example in some of the more simplistic aspects of this issue regarding the receipt of an unfair advantage.

Yes I'd want all athletes to be on risk free roids.
Just as much as I want them to have personal trainers, good health care and other aids to help them perform better.
I dont hope you get the wrong idea though. I do not support steroid use. And let's get back on track.

Custom controllers will do nothing but help you do exactly what you want to do. Messing up less and playing more honest. Counter acting tunnel vision. Make you more free.
If they can make my opponend do that then I am by all means for it.
They will not make you play flawless all of a sudden. Not to mention pulling your character up on the tier list.

I think I have contributed my opinion.

 

[-ACE-]

Steroids are irrelevant. Sure they give you the upper hand in performing with a quicker improvement rate, but they also, and this is why they are banned, can be very harmful and or even lethal.

Custom notches on the other hand comes with no apparent health risk and only directly improves your success rate of specific technical execusions.

Don't claim steroids are irrelevant, disregard the only relevant comparison they provide, then bring up the most irrelevant aspects of steroid use. I explained that the analogy wasn't perfect, but that it does apply in some situations.

The reason why it is relevant is because you receive an advantage you didn't earn ("directly improving your success rate of specific technical execusions" is included in this). In no other way did I try to link steroids to this issue.

Yes I'd want all athletes to be on risk free roids.
Just as much as I want them to have personal trainers, good health care and other aids to help them perform better.
I dont hope you get the wrong idea though. I do not support steroid use. And let's get back on track.

Custom controllers will do nothing but help you do exactly what you want to do. Messing up less and playing more honest. Counter acting tunnel vision. Make you more free.
If they can make my opponend do that then I am by all means for it.
They will not make you play flawless all of a sudden. Not to mention pulling your character up on the tier list.

I think I have contributed my opinion.

If you see having good health care as the same type of advantage as using steroids, do you effectively see wd notches the same as practicing wavedashing?

You just described an aid in execution which is seemingly allegedly necessary to make up for human error. This is a obviously a substitute for practice. Wouldn't you want tournaments to test the mastery of a particular skill set completely earned by practice and dedication, rather than partially earned? Or is testing human ability not the goal of the tournament?

 

[-ACE-]

I wholeheartedly believe that while execution is important, most people win because of their ability to reason quickly and effectively, and at times it's VERY hard to train that because of barriers in execution.

By saying "most people" you are admitting that some people win mostly through great execution. I'm not saying I agree (as it is irrelevant), but I feel most of you know that this provides an unfair advantage and just try to downplay it while dancing around the issue. Just because execution is not the #1 skill in melee, doesn't mean that an unfair advantage in the execution department is any less unfair.

It looks like a player having great tech and a weak mind would gain little compared to an intelligent player with inconsistent tech. This would effectively alter the skills we test for in tournament.

It is true that technical barriers exist in melee. They do make it harder to train yourself on the mental aspect of certain situations, as they have a prerequisite regarding technical skill and the bravery to perform such techs in tournament. Many of you are trying to skip the step that says "you must be technical to the X power to try Y" by going straight for Y, before achieving X. You can attack the simplicity of that example, but the bottom line is you've decided to change the game rather than hone your execution skills. I don't see this as the best course of action.

The game does not prevent you from wavedashing perfectly or shield dropping easily, our completely arbitrary selection of controllers and controller layout does. We did not follow the developers intentions in making smash a competitive game, why is the idea that our controller is the only way to play so sacred?

This is how the game is designed. In my opinion, imperfections in design (many of which are identified based on opinion) do not justify making changes to the controller to make execution easier. Doesn't every game cube controller initially come with an octagonal gate? It may seem arbitrary, or sub-optimal to some but it is actually a great design and has been the standard since day one. Inherent challenges come with the use of an octagonal gate, and you are trying to achieve more without completing the challenges.

We are imposing an artificial limitation on how good people can get based on their input selection, and that's just silly to me.

We did not impose anything. The controller modification movement, if anything, is doing the imposing. This "limitation" you speak of was deemed part of the game by its creators, not players that believe in true competition. Melee doesn't seem silly to me, just technically demanding.

Innovation and a really, really great community have kept this game going as long as it has and I think deciding to restrict people trying to innovate again is counter to what our community is.

I believe that innovation can be bad in certain situations, if misguided. I think these mods are great for the casual community, but have no place in competition as they provide a distinct, unearned advantage to the player using them.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Steroids are irrelevant. Sure they give you the upper hand in performing with a quicker improvement rate, but they also, and this is why they are banned, can be very harmful and or even lethal.

Steroids are absolutely not irrelevant. They are also not banned for being harmful / lethal. If a player in the hall of fame were to admit to using steroids, I promise you they'd have their status as hall of famer revoked; even if they were perfectly healthy.

But, if you truly believe that's why steroids are banned (which I doubt), let's take a look at corked bats. Nobody is claiming corked bats are harmful and yet, they are still banned - likely because they are classified as equipment that gives the user artificial skill.

I have nothing against these controllers, as I think they could be a valuable tool akin to training wheels for those who don't yet know how to play the game, but they have no place in a tournament setting IMO. Ultimately, it's up to the TOs to allow or disallow the use of these controllers, but I beg the community to make it a standard to make the legality of use contingent on a gentleman's clause.

 

[Scroll]

Truth is I dont know much about steroid usage at all. Should have kep my mouth shut. But words were being put into my mouth by mr. lobbyist over here *cough* -ACE- *cough* xD
Now I didn't know what a corked bat was so I had to look it up.
Turns out it actually performs worse than a non corked one. Faster swing, but less impact.
I didn't look into the official rules but I guess baseball is played with a standardized bat.
Afaik you can enter melee tournaments with a 3rd party controller np.

K, for those of you who are opposed to custom controllers for Nintendo Gamecube, where do you draw the line?
Can I weaken a spring? Can I remove a button? When is a stick box so broken in so that it's "too custom" for you?
Do you want it to be standardized to bring a mint condition controller to tournament settings?
What if my 14 year old controller is so broken in from my impeccable wave dashes that it actually carved a notch by itself?

 

[-ACE-]

Scroll Personally I only have a problem with notches. I would have brought up the other mods, I'm fine with them. And I have already stated in this thread that I don't plan on supporting a rule for controller up-keep. Springs break and fail and the results vary, as do new springs, so no I don't see that as a problem. It certainly doesn't change the accuracy required to hit the R button. If your dog chews off your Y button and you don't use it, who cares? And if your controller is worn out, it's worn out. If that's what you prefer, enjoy!

And I am personally ALMOST on the fence about the shield drop notches, because some controllers sticks boxes are not positioned correctly. I would fully support moving the stick box (if possible) until you found that it shield dropped on both sides. Then, you don't have a homemade "sweetspot" to make techs easier. Although, I must reiterate this is the notch I dislike the least, by a long shot.

-Mr. Lobbyist

 

[CAUP]

If notches become legal, that's basically saying people no longer care about a level playing field. I mean what in the world, most people don't have money laying around to spend on getting notches in their controller to give them an edge in competition. This clearly discriminates against players and makes the barrier of entry higher than it already is. Seriously, why can't we just play by the rules of the game?

I think people are assuming this is popular and fine because top players are getting notched controllers. I doubt any of them agree with the moral ramifications, they are just doing it to manipulate the system while they can >_< I just don't think people for this have thought this through honestly. Especially the hardware modding part. I mean are people really saying that if there was some mod that gave someone perfect tech skill that would be fair?

This is honestly kind of discouraging. The game is fine and beautiful the way it is. We seriously don't need to change anything.

 

[GenNyan]

I'm not necessarily for or against legalization/banning right now, but there are some issues with the viability of banning controller mods.

Firstly is of course the battle of semantics. TOs would have to define exactly what an illegal controller mod is, the limitations, which ones are legal for that particular tournament etc. It would definitely need to be standardized if a ban was put in place.

Secondly, players can make controller mods hard or impossible to detect, and it would be impractical to check everybody's controller at a large tournament. Controllers aren't particularly bulky, so someone could hide a backup, modded controller to be taken out after the first is inspected (Unless TOs enforce strict TSA checking rules, even more impractical). In addition, I'm told that creating notches isn't hard or time consuming, so people could potentially do it at the venue after inspection.


I think that a possible solution for larger tournaments is to only check the controllers of the top 8(? Exact number doesn't matter) in bracket (or maybe top 2 per pool, Idk). This would ensure that any player who thought he had a chance of winning/making top 8 wouldn't dare bring a modded one for fear of disqualification. One of the main drawbacks of mods is that players would have small advantages with modded controllers. Those advantages are most pronounced in top level play where it matters the most, so with this system, some of the side effects can be avoided while still allowing weaker players to use training wheels.

This is the best compromise that I can think of (the gentleman's agreement thing was kind of terrible because people would need to learn how to use 2 different controllers in case someone isn't cool with it). I'd be happy to hear some alternate suggestions for how banning would work/revisions to my system.

P.S. I think that people should be allowed to alter the shell to be more ergonomic to different hand sizes (Don't know if anybody actually does this yet). That would probably reduce hand pain for some, and I don't see how it would otherwise give anybody an in-game advantage.

 

[-ACE-]

The gentleman's clause isn't "terrible" because people CHOSE to abandon the official Nintendo controller and get used to one that made executing techs easier. Without it, the player who desires the level playing field has no voice.

It is very easy to see if something is an octagon or not. This would not be difficult to enforce by any means.

Here's an example:

 

[GenNyan]

The gentleman's clause isn't "terrible" because people CHOSE to abandon the official Nintendo controller and get used to one that made executing techs easier. Without it, the player who desires the level playing field has no voice.

It is very easy to see if something is an octagon or not. This would not be difficult to enforce by any means.

Here's an example:View attachment 83626

The notches are quite small and might not even be noticed if the maker has such an intent. Kadano smooths out the octagon into a circle, but I suspect that it isn't necessary for all analog stick modifications.

And as has been pointed out previously, there are other types of mods. This image below was taken directly from Kadano's thread; how are people supposed to tell the difference between the normal Y button and the slightly lowered one? And even if they did notice, the other could just wave it off as "wear and tear."

When making bans and the like, you have to take into account that people will try to exploit the system as much as humanly possible.

Bones0 has recently linked a book called "playing to win" somewhere on the forums (thanks btw, its a good read) and I think this snippet is a pretty good analogy.

The thing to be banned must be able to be “completely defined.” Imagine that in a fighting game, repeating a certain sequence of five moves over and over is the best tactic in the game. Further suppose that doing so is “taboo” and that players want to ban it. There is no concrete definition of exactly what must be banned. Can players do three repetitions of the five moves? What about two reps? What about one? What about repeating the first four moves and omitting the fifth? Is that okay? The game becomes a test of who is willing to play as closely as possible to the “taboo tactic” without breaking the (arbitrary) letter of the law defining the tactic.

Or in a first-person shooter game, consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). No friendly agreement between the players is necessary for the ban, which at least means it’s enforceable. The server can monitor the positions of players, and it knows exactly who breaks the rule and can hand out penalties accordingly. The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned.

 

[-ACE-]

It wouldn't be right to allow Kadano notches and not other homemade notches, even if they differed in size. The alternative would be forcing players to buy from Kadano if they wanted assistance with their AT's (simply to have same advantage everyone else has). It's much more feasible to flat out ban extra notches. If the notch is so small that it can't be noticed, it's not doing much anyway.