Mr. Game & Watch MU Strategies/Stage Preferences

[Mr.989]

New to the local competitive scene. Been doing somewhat decent I guess but been having some difficulty against a few characters. I've done a little research and brushed up on common mistakes I was making but I am having some difficulty against a few characters. Does anyone have any tips on Tactics and Stage Preferences (Eligiable Tourney Stages) that help give Mr.G&W an advantage or slightly less of a disadvantage against each MU? All feedback is much appreciated. Gracias.

1. Cloud
a.) Strategy/Tips
b.) Stage Preference

2. Rosalina & Luma
a.) Strategy/Tips
b.) Stage Preference

3. Yoshi
a.) Strategy/Tips
b.) Stage Preference

4. Zelda (I know, she's supposedly one of the worst characters. I still have trouble lol)
a.) Strategy/Tips
b.) Stage Preference

5. Peach
a.) Strategy/Tips
b.) Stage Preference

6. R.O.B.
a.) Strategy/Tips
b.) Stage Preference


....thanks in advance for any time and feedback given

 

[pepi1197]

I'll only tackle Cloud since I have very limited experience in the rest of the matchups but the gist of it is:

1. Unless you can dash dance + foxtrot effectively, it's not worth attempting to go after the Limit Break in neutral. This matchup is already hampered by a close to impossible approach game for G&W but the punishes can be pretty extreme if you try to gain stage control without covering all your options.
2. You are outranged. Remember that when you're throwing out aerials or trying to shorthop aerial near the ledge. Cloud's Nair in particular is very difficult to work around.
3. It doesn't matter how you do it, but you have to get them offstage. G&W's gimping/edgeguarding tools are insane and you can go deep for most KOs due to the excellent recovery. The biggest thing is not being afraid to chase, even with the aforementioned better range. Fair is especially good at knocking Cloud out of recovery range if you can space it correctly and sweetspot the hit.


That's all exceptionally broad but it's a good foundation to build on for a pretty tricky matchup.

 

[Mr.989]

I'll only tackle Cloud since I have very limited experience in the rest of the matchups but the gist of it is:

1. Unless you can dash dance + foxtrot effectively, it's not worth attempting to go after the Limit Break in neutral. This matchup is already hampered by a close to impossible approach game for G&W but the punishes can be pretty extreme if you try to gain stage control without covering all your options.
2. You are outranged. Remember that when you're throwing out aerials or trying to shorthop aerial near the ledge. Cloud's Nair in particular is very difficult to work around.
3. It doesn't matter how you do it, but you have to get them offstage. G&W's gimping/edgeguarding tools are insane and you can go deep for most KOs due to the excellent recovery. The biggest thing is not being afraid to chase, even with the aforementioned better range. Fair is especially good at knocking Cloud out of recovery range if you can space it correctly and sweetspot the hit.


That's all exceptionally broad but it's a good foundation to build on for a pretty tricky matchup.

Yeah I've pretty much accepted the fact that facing Cloud is an automatic disadvantage for G&W, but where there's a will there's a way lol. I've had some success against him before but for the most part its a stuggle, which is expected. What stages to you think help G&W in the MU vs. Cloud and what stages do you think make it worse? Thanks again for your time and feedback.

 

[SeanS]

Stage preference is always BF > FD > SV or BF > DL > FD > T&C > SV except for a few matchups like Rosa or Bowser in which FD is better.

 

[TheMiSP]

I co-main him with . Yep, matchup doesn't look pretty good. We die to beep boop relatively early (not hard to do as ). Idk if we even have an answer to a properly spaced retreating nair. We're still susceptible to all the gyro traps (you can't always eliminate it with dtilt windbox, learn to catch and up throw it or extend a combo with it). Instead of shield grabbing our bad aerials, he's just going to OoS up smash it.

You CAN react to lasers though (just notice the slight head push before it). At least it isn't PM laser which kills and isn't easy to react to.

In turn, I guess our Toot Toot works for a little longer range of percents.

Gimp him. Gimp him hard. Just don't do it from above/in front of him since his uair and fair come out relatively quick. Be especially patient with gimping those who take advantage of the hump recovery.

 

[Mr.989]

Stage preference is always BF > FD > SV or BF > DL > FD > T&C > SV except for a few matchups like Rosa or Bowser in which FD is better.

Much appreciated ....I finally bought an adapter to use the GC controller today. I can't decide if I like the C-stick set for Attack or Smash Attack. What do you prefer?

 

[Mr.989]

I co-main him with . Yep, matchup doesn't look pretty good. We die to beep boop relatively early (not hard to do as ). Idk if we even have an answer to a properly spaced retreating nair. We're still susceptible to all the gyro traps (you can't always eliminate it with dtilt windbox, learn to catch and up throw it or extend a combo with it). Instead of shield grabbing our bad aerials, he's just going to OoS up smash it.

You CAN react to lasers though (just notice the slight head push before it). At least it isn't PM laser which kills and isn't easy to react to.

In turn, I guess our Toot Toot works for a little longer range of percents.

Gimp him. Gimp him hard. Just don't do it from above/in front of him since his uair and fair come out relatively quick. Be especially patient with gimping those who take advantage of the hump recovery.

Much appreciated what stage would you choose to battle against him if given the choice?

 

[TheMiSP]

Much appreciated ....I finally bought an adapter to use the GC controller today. I can't decide if I like the C-stick set for Attack or Smash Attack. What do you prefer?

I prefer default Smash attack. It's your choice.

Easy running up smashs and pivot fsmashs = Smash Attack.

Easy pivot ftilts (also good) = tilts.


As for stages, I read somewhere on the ROB boards that they'd prefer Town & City over Battlefield (not a good source tho). Just remember on Battlefield to be careful. As soon as match starts it's convenient for ROB to gain stage floor control by him simply firing a quick gyro into the center of the floor.

I don't play truly competitively and won't until I'm in college or something (no opportunities). I play mostly with good friends on Omega everything. I can't offer important stage advice.

 

[Mr.989]

I prefer default Smash attack. It's your choice.

Easy running up smashs and pivot fsmashs = Smash Attack.

Easy pivot ftilts (also good) = tilts.


As for stages, I read somewhere on the ROB boards that they'd prefer Town & City over Battlefield (not a good source tho). Just remember on Battlefield to be careful. As soon as match starts it's convenient for ROB to gain stage floor control by him simply firing a quick gyro into the center of the floor.

I don't play truly competitively and won't until I'm in college or something (no opportunities). I play mostly with good friends on Omega everything. I can't offer important stage advice.

 

[Mr.989]

Okay cool, I've been feelin out both. I think I like Smash Attack a little more as well. I don't take the competitive way too seriously but figured to pick up some pointers on some down time. Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[pepi1197]

I set my C-stick to attack mainly because I feel it's easier for tilts out of dthrow but that's again just a preference.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I co-main him with . Yep, matchup doesn't look pretty good. We die to beep boop relatively early (not hard to do as ). Idk if we even have an answer to a properly spaced retreating nair. We're still susceptible to all the gyro traps (you can't always eliminate it with dtilt windbox, learn to catch and up throw it or extend a combo with it). Instead of shield grabbing our bad aerials, he's just going to OoS up smash it.

You CAN react to lasers though (just notice the slight head push before it). At least it isn't PM laser which kills and isn't easy to react to.

In turn, I guess our Toot Toot works for a little longer range of percents.

Gimp him. Gimp him hard. Just don't do it from above/in front of him since his uair and fair come out relatively quick. Be especially patient with gimping those who take advantage of the hump recovery.

You have a answer for retreating Nair. just run towards him (he's losing his control of the stage in favor of safety).

 

[Mr.989]

I've been testing out stages with Mr. G&W to see which I like best and how I can use each to my advantage, but there are few where I've both excelled and had a tough time with. The local tournament I recently started go uses 10 stages. What stages to you personally feel most comfortable with when using G&W?

Like:
Battlefield, Dream Land, Duck Hunt

Neutral:
Final Destination, Castle Siege, Halbert, Smashville, Delfino Plaza

Iffy:
Town & City, Lylatt Cruise (I either destroy or get destroyed at LC lol)

 

[Folie]

Some of that doesn't really make sense to me. Duck Hunt is very mehto me, with stage spiking not being nearly as effective and the nature of the camera on the stage making offstage harder at times, though it's better than SV/T&C. Pretty much all of the 3 transformation stages are bad for G&W (happy those are gone in my region), with walkoffs and transformations hurting more than helping considering we have nothing close to a killthrow or high knockback throw combo outside of the kind of unreliable dthrow uair, and the forms of a lot of those stages being bad for stage spiking and gimping in general. Lylat should be among the top picks bc like BF and DL, the platforms are great, unless you're facing a character that does particularly well on that stage.

 

[SeanS]

actual ideal stage preferencing for you, then, ordered within tiers:

GOOD

BF DL LYLAT FD

BAD

CS T&C

TERRIBLE

SV DH DELFINO HALBERD

 

[Vader614]

Honestly, Battlefield/Miiverse, Dreamland, Lylat Cruise and Final Destination/Omega Stages is where I feel the most comfortable. Town and City is okay for me, but the rest of the stages...NOPE.

 

[Mr.989]

I actually kind of find it weird too lol. What is also weird to me are my MU's. I've been looking into MU's for g&w and most feel he is better against big slow opponents (ex. DK, Ike) and weak against fast combo types (ex. Fox, Sonic). I for some reason do a little better against the fast characters over the heavy. I'm still training and testing out stages when I can.

Quick question though, what 2 stages would you prefer to choose and what 2 would you strike against the following opponents?



They seemed to be used most at the tournament I recently started going to.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[pepi1197]

For Sheik it depends on your playstyle and where you feel comfortable. The matchup is going to be horrid (still not Fox bad, but you get the point) no matter where you go. The only stage I would avoid like the plague against Sheik off the top of my head would be either Smashville or Duck Hunt I guess.

 

[Folie]

Yeah I can't think of any reasons to do anything different than SeanS's list for those characters. Maybe Lylat CP for yoshi, yoshi players seem to not like that stage.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

Greetings! Thought I'd drop by to give my opinions.

: Very volatile matchup, I've had some nasty experiences. Speed and range really put pressure on us 2D Masters to have a great knowledge of our defensive options. Just do whatever you can to get Cloud (like Mac) offstage as quickly as possible. One thing of interest is that I once beat out Cloud's Limit Break Blade Beam by spamming Chef. I think it clanked with 3 foods at once and stopped there, but I'll have to get a friend over and lab it out. Also, Cloud has a strange fall speed like Bowser and Lucario, so make sure you pummel once or get a hit off before doing your regularly scheduled low percent combos, or he will fall out and be able to powershield it. If you can bucket 3 Blade Beams, it grants high-power bucket (43%, KO's at 15%), which is an instant stock.

As for stages, it has to do with what you're comfortable playing on. Flat stages make approaches from either character very violent. Platform stages grant Game and Watch the ability to keep away better as well as more mobility, but that just lets Cloud get away to charge Limit easier.

: I actually think, despite how broken Luma's knockback power is, that this matchup is close to even. The priority is getting rid of Luma above all else here, which, surprisingly, Game and Watch seems to accel at. Dash attack is a one-hit wonder close to the ledge, and I've found that hitting Luma with the pan of Chef immobilizes it. If you get a pan hit, spam away, because for some reason, Rosalina doesn't seem to be able to pull Luma out of it. Don't worry about a potential rush-in by Rosa, the pan hitbox is very deceptive.

Dreamland is your friend thanks to Luma being affected by Whispy, just stay away from the top platform. Batlefield, on the other hand, you should ban instantly. It mainly has to do with what stages you're comfortable playing on, since Game and Watch can do well on both flat and platform stages.

: That little dinotwerp is SO annoying. Yoshi seems to get out of everything we can throw at him with that double jump. My best advice is to play extremely patient. Hang back when Yoshi is spamming eggs, and if they run in with an aerial, rebuff them with an up smash (praise the I-frames). All in all, the hardest part is getting the KO here. Not much else to say.

Anywhere that limits Yoshi's mobility is a must. Go FD if you want to make things very one-dimensional. Beware of Dreamland and Battlefield, it's curtains if Yoshi gets you on the top platform. Smashville can be good and go Town and City only if you are good at landing Toot Toot.

: Even though Zelda is not a great character (Sakurai please), she's an absolute wall. While she wouldn't dare use Din's Fire, the fact that Phantom Slash got buffed to where we can't duck under it anymore really puts the hurt on us. Not to mention her many powerful moves (Up B kills at freaking 70 sometimes). Just be very wary of your spacing, and be extra wary of hers. Our moves have the advantage in range, however slightly, but Zelda can be more of a threat than Bowser when she starts reading your approaches. Stay patient and unpredictable.

DO NOT go to any flat stage. Like said previously, Zelda is a brick wall. Ban FD and Smashville. Town and City is very situational, but I'd stay away due to the low ceiling. Lylat and Dreamland are good counterpicks. Yes, I like Dreamland. And Lylat.

: Peach I actually don't have much of a problem with. She has MAJOR clash abuse with Game and Watch, but the problem is that Peach can't approach with float thanks to the lovely down tilt windbox. I find the most effective strategy to be a bizarre keep-away type style where instead of being defensively evasive, you must be offensively evasive. Close in on Peach, walling her with back air and forward air while stuffing her every approach with dash attack, up air, nair, down tilt, and up B. Watch for those turnips too, you can JCT (Jump Cancel Toss) a turnip into a forward air or even a hammer.

Peach's platform pressure can be scary, but at the same time if you trap her on the platforms, she can't land or pull turnips easily. I recommend Dreamland because of the wind making Peach's float go haywire. Go Lylat if you think you can get Peach offstage for a nice stage spike, as well as shelter under the platforms. If you stick to the strange keep-you-away style, FD can frustrate Peach with all of the windboxes. Duck Hunt is... well... Duck Hunt. Go there if you can outmaneuver Peach.

: This always, always, always goes sharply either way. Gyro is annoying as always, and Beep Boop and up smash are especially scary. Edgeguarding is also tricky thanks to R.O.B.'s up air and forward air, making offstage a match within itself. He can also outspace you in neutral with nair and forward air. The reward in this matchup comes with getting in close. R.O.B. is Grade A combo food, and once Game and Watch gets the grab, R.O.B. is in for major damage. The best way to tack on early damage is either the Elevator combo (down throw -> up tilt -> fullhop nair -> jump up air -> up B) or the Darth Throw combo (up throw -> double jump up air -> up B -> forward air, thanks Vader!).

I'd recommend staying away from Duck Hunt and Battlefield for obvious reasons, but Dreamland can be kind of good because Whispy shifts the Gyro with the wind. Lylat is good because R.O.B. has a high chance of sending the gyro offstage thanks to the stage tilting and allowing you to continue with your approach.

Let me know of your opinions as well, I love talking about this game.

 

[Mr.989]

Greetings! Thought I'd drop by to give my opinions.

: Very volatile matchup, I've had some nasty experiences. Speed and range really put pressure on us 2D Masters to have a great knowledge of our defensive options. Just do whatever you can to get Cloud (like Mac) offstage as quickly as possible. One thing of interest is that I once beat out Cloud's Limit Break Blade Beam by spamming Chef. I think it clanked with 3 foods at once and stopped there, but I'll have to get a friend over and lab it out. Also, Cloud has a strange fall speed like Bowser and Lucario, so make sure you pummel once or get a hit off before doing your regularly scheduled low percent combos, or he will fall out and be able to powershield it. If you can bucket 3 Blade Beams, it grants high-power bucket (43%, KO's at 15%), which is an instant stock.

As for stages, it has to do with what you're comfortable playing on. Flat stages make approaches from either character very violent. Platform stages grant Game and Watch the ability to keep away better as well as more mobility, but that just lets Cloud get away to charge Limit easier.

: I actually think, despite how broken Luma's knockback power is, that this matchup is close to even. The priority is getting rid of Luma above all else here, which, surprisingly, Game and Watch seems to accel at. Dash attack is a one-hit wonder close to the ledge, and I've found that hitting Luma with the pan of Chef immobilizes it. If you get a pan hit, spam away, because for some reason, Rosalina doesn't seem to be able to pull Luma out of it. Don't worry about a potential rush-in by Rosa, the pan hitbox is very deceptive.

Dreamland is your friend thanks to Luma being affected by Whispy, just stay away from the top platform. Batlefield, on the other hand, you should ban instantly. It mainly has to do with what stages you're comfortable playing on, since Game and Watch can do well on both flat and platform stages.

: That little dinotwerp is SO annoying. Yoshi seems to get out of everything we can throw at him with that double jump. My best advice is to play extremely patient. Hang back when Yoshi is spamming eggs, and if they run in with an aerial, rebuff them with an up smash (praise the I-frames). All in all, the hardest part is getting the KO here. Not much else to say.

Anywhere that limits Yoshi's mobility is a must. Go FD if you want to make things very one-dimensional. Beware of Dreamland and Battlefield, it's curtains if Yoshi gets you on the top platform. Smashville can be good and go Town and City only if you are good at landing Toot Toot.

: Even though Zelda is not a great character (Sakurai please), she's an absolute wall. While she wouldn't dare use Din's Fire, the fact that Phantom Slash got buffed to where we can't duck under it anymore really puts the hurt on us. Not to mention her many powerful moves (Up B kills at freaking 70 sometimes). Just be very wary of your spacing, and be extra wary of hers. Our moves have the advantage in range, however slightly, but Zelda can be more of a threat than Bowser when she starts reading your approaches. Stay patient and unpredictable.

DO NOT go to any flat stage. Like said previously, Zelda is a brick wall. Ban FD and Smashville. Town and City is very situational, but I'd stay away due to the low ceiling. Lylat and Dreamland are good counterpicks. Yes, I like Dreamland. And Lylat.

: Peach I actually don't have much of a problem with. She has MAJOR clash abuse with Game and Watch, but the problem is that Peach can't approach with float thanks to the lovely down tilt windbox. I find the most effective strategy to be a bizarre keep-away type style where instead of being defensively evasive, you must be offensively evasive. Close in on Peach, walling her with back air and forward air while stuffing her every approach with dash attack, up air, nair, down tilt, and up B. Watch for those turnips too, you can JCT (Jump Cancel Toss) a turnip into a forward air or even a hammer.

Peach's platform pressure can be scary, but at the same time if you trap her on the platforms, she can't land or pull turnips easily. I recommend Dreamland because of the wind making Peach's float go haywire. Go Lylat if you think you can get Peach offstage for a nice stage spike, as well as shelter under the platforms. If you stick to the strange keep-you-away style, FD can frustrate Peach with all of the windboxes. Duck Hunt is... well... Duck Hunt. Go there if you can outmaneuver Peach.

: This always, always, always goes sharply either way. Gyro is annoying as always, and Beep Boop and up smash are especially scary. Edgeguarding is also tricky thanks to R.O.B.'s up air and forward air, making offstage a match within itself. He can also outspace you in neutral with nair and forward air. The reward in this matchup comes with getting in close. R.O.B. is Grade A combo food, and once Game and Watch gets the grab, R.O.B. is in for major damage. The best way to tack on early damage is either the Elevator combo (down throw -> up tilt -> fullhop nair -> jump up air -> up B) or the Darth Throw combo (up throw -> double jump up air -> up B -> forward air, thanks Vader!).

I'd recommend staying away from Duck Hunt and Battlefield for obvious reasons, but Dreamland can be kind of good because Whispy shifts the Gyro with the wind. Lylat is good because R.O.B. has a high chance of sending the gyro offstage thanks to the stage tilting and allowing you to continue with your approach.

Let me know of your opinions as well, I love talking about this game.

: I've been doing a bit better reading him and findind openings to attack. I can almost always hit him with 2-3 dash attacks before he gets up. I'm practicing to get better at gimping. I'm sure that should help me even to defeat him. I'm just glad I'm not getting slaughtered against him anymore lol. Stages don't seem to matter much anymore since reading his attacks better.

: Tips on getting the kill? Usually my fight against him is combo galore against each other. Once he gets to high percent I have trouble hitting him with one of G&W's kill moves, I have trouble finding a way lure Ness into spot where I can land a smash attack. He's so floaty and seems to dodge my smash attacks easier than most others once the opportunity does present itself. I think I like Lylatt, FD, or SV against him. Thoughts?


: I just don't like fighting her. I think I like Lylat against her if I can keep her above me.

: Yes Lylatt is a great spot against him. Anywhere else I have trouble approaching him. I always underestimate tail and boots. Haven't fought him too much at tournaments but I see him used often. I'm getting better at defense against him just hard to get damage on him sometimes. Kills are not too hard to hit once I don get him at high perecents though


: Getting a little better against her too except when I'm above her. Using bacon on her makes being beneath or facing her a bit easier for me. Above her I tend to find myself getting damaged before or right when landing.

Overall things I need to improve with my gameplay:

Killing:
its usually mainly with the floaty players, once above 120-130% I usually damage with bacon or get a hit or two any other way. Combos are harder to hit and so is luring them in to hit them hard.

Defense:
Although I can feel myself slightly improving, sometimes I just want to hit my own head by how often I make stupid mistakes on defense. I STILL roll more often than anyone should be, I annoy myself with it. The hand really is quicker than the eye. In my head I'm thinking block or run but my fingers are like nope, too late, I'm already rolling lol.

Another is dropping when the opponent waits for me on the ground. Not horrible at my decisions on where to land but sometimes I let myself fall into a set up.

Gimping:
Timing its mainly timing, I miss too much and there were a few times I stupidly killed myself. So I've done it less at tournaments which lets my opponent easily overcome the only two options I use (bacon or dash attack). Which I guess really isn't gimping, more edgeguarding.

My thoughts on my own gameplay:
I'm not expecting myself to become the best overnight or at all for that matter, I just don't want to be looked at as a simple win. Not really from anyone else but myself. I feel I have improved and actually feel satisfied with myself even if I lose because of how much of a fight I gave to my opponent. I know I'm only gonna be okay with being a tough win to opponents for so long though lol. I do win sometimes but don't get too far in tournaments. (I've only played in about 10 so far starting in November) Not beating myself up for it, but It'd be nice to make a decent name for myself other than mediocre. I think improving my issues listed above can help my win percentage and tournament rankings insteading of being "soooo close" all the time lol

Thanks for the reply, I love discussing Mr. Game & Watch too. He's my favorite character roster. I feel like we're a team lol, I won't give up on my dedication to improve, I want to give a good rep to him, myself, and other G&W lovers out there.

 

[Folie]

: Very volatile matchup, I've had some nasty experiences. Speed and range really put pressure on us 2D Masters to have a great knowledge of our defensive options. Just do whatever you can to get Cloud (like Mac) offstage as quickly as possible. One thing of interest is that I once beat out Cloud's Limit Break Blade Beam by spamming Chef. I think it clanked with 3 foods at once and stopped there, but I'll have to get a friend over and lab it out. Also, Cloud has a strange fall speed like Bowser and Lucario, so make sure you pummel once or get a hit off before doing your regularly scheduled low percent combos, or he will fall out and be able to powershield it. If you can bucket 3 Blade Beams, it grants high-power bucket (43%, KO's at 15%), which is an instant stock.

As for stages, it has to do with what you're comfortable playing on. Flat stages make approaches from either character very violent. Platform stages grant Game and Watch the ability to keep away better as well as more mobility, but that just lets Cloud get away to charge Limit easier.

Using chef frequently in neutral as anything other than an occasional b-reverse hard mixup to landing opponents is a bad idea, the move is incredibly laggy and you'll be asking for cloud to come down with an aerial, or come up and dash attack, or, if they have limit, limit side b which kills p early on us. They'll be looking more for side b punishes on us trying to come in or space with aerials. Cloud has no reason to use non-limit blade beam on us, if we're at a distance, cloud can just charge limit to force an approach.

: I actually think, despite how broken Luma's knockback power is, that this matchup is close to even. The priority is getting rid of Luma above all else here, which, surprisingly, Game and Watch seems to accel at. Dash attack is a one-hit wonder close to the ledge, and I've found that hitting Luma with the pan of Chef immobilizes it. If you get a pan hit, spam away, because for some reason, Rosalina doesn't seem to be able to pull Luma out of it. Don't worry about a potential rush-in by Rosa, the pan hitbox is very deceptive.

Dreamland is your friend thanks to Luma being affected by Whispy, just stay away from the top platform. Batlefield, on the other hand, you should ban instantly. It mainly has to do with what stages you're comfortable playing on, since Game and Watch can do well on both flat and platform stages.

Once again, chef in neutral is bad and punishable, bair and dash attack both are objectively better at killing Luma and safer. Any platform stage benefits Rosa more heavily than it benefits us, FD is probably your best pick, and if that's banned, ask yourself whether Dreamland or T&C is less of a pain for you.

: That little dinotwerp is SO annoying. Yoshi seems to get out of everything we can throw at him with that double jump. My best advice is to play extremely patient. Hang back when Yoshi is spamming eggs, and if they run in with an aerial, rebuff them with an up smash (praise the I-frames). All in all, the hardest part is getting the KO here. Not much else to say.

Anywhere that limits Yoshi's mobility is a must. Go FD if you want to make things very one-dimensional. Beware of Dreamland and Battlefield, it's curtains if Yoshi gets you on the top platform. Smashville can be good and go Town and City only if you are good at landing Toot Toot.

Don't really understand a lot of what you're saying here, the top platform is not hard to escape like it is against, say, Rosa. Powershield eggs and force them to come up with an aerial and use that to escape the top platform, maybe punish rising aerials with dair if they let themselves get hit by that. DL and BF benefit us more than they benefit him. SV literally adds no positives for us and you might as well just go FD, and T&C is debatable when considering Yoshi's vertical kill power.

: Even though Zelda is not a great character (Sakurai please), she's an absolute wall. While she wouldn't dare use Din's Fire, the fact that Phantom Slash got buffed to where we can't duck under it anymore really puts the hurt on us. Not to mention her many powerful moves (Up B kills at freaking 70 sometimes). Just be very wary of your spacing, and be extra wary of hers. Our moves have the advantage in range, however slightly, but Zelda can be more of a threat than Bowser when she starts reading your approaches. Stay patient and unpredictable.

DO NOT go to any flat stage. Like said previously, Zelda is a brick wall. Ban FD and Smashville. Town and City is very situational, but I'd stay away due to the low ceiling. Lylat and Dreamland are good counterpicks. Yes, I like Dreamland. And Lylat.

Don't understand how zelda is a wall, din's fire is horrible even without considering the fact it's literally free bucket fodder, and Phantom Slash is not much better. As long as you aren't being careless with landings/dash attacks/rolling you shouldn't be having an issue with OoS Up B. Just stick to regular game plan and be wary of being in the air, same stage preference as normal, we have a a better time with platforms than Zelda ever will.

: Peach I actually don't have much of a problem with. She has MAJOR clash abuse with Game and Watch, but the problem is that Peach can't approach with float thanks to the lovely down tilt windbox. I find the most effective strategy to be a bizarre keep-away type style where instead of being defensively evasive, you must be offensively evasive. Close in on Peach, walling her with back air and forward air while stuffing her every approach with dash attack, up air, nair, down tilt, and up B. Watch for those turnips too, you can JCT (Jump Cancel Toss) a turnip into a forward air or even a hammer.

Peach's platform pressure can be scary, but at the same time if you trap her on the platforms, she can't land or pull turnips easily. I recommend Dreamland because of the wind making Peach's float go haywire. Go Lylat if you think you can get Peach offstage for a nice stage spike, as well as shelter under the platforms. If you stick to the strange keep-you-away style, FD can frustrate Peach with all of the windboxes. Duck Hunt is... well... Duck Hunt. Go there if you can outmaneuver Peach.

can't say much here to lack of experience but dtilt is laggy and can be baited out then punished, not really a reliable neutral tool.

: This always, always, always goes sharply either way. Gyro is annoying as always, and Beep Boop and up smash are especially scary. Edgeguarding is also tricky thanks to R.O.B.'s up air and forward air, making offstage a match within itself. He can also outspace you in neutral with nair and forward air. The reward in this matchup comes with getting in close. R.O.B. is Grade A combo food, and once Game and Watch gets the grab, R.O.B. is in for major damage. The best way to tack on early damage is either the Elevator combo (down throw -> up tilt -> fullhop nair -> jump up air -> up B) or the Darth Throw combo (up throw -> double jump up air -> up B -> forward air, thanks Vader!).

I'd recommend staying away from Duck Hunt and Battlefield for obvious reasons, but Dreamland can be kind of good because Whispy shifts the Gyro with the wind. Lylat is good because R.O.B. has a high chance of sending the gyro offstage thanks to the stage tilting and allowing you to continue with your approach.

Edgeguarding should be where you should be going the hardest against ROB, stay in front of him and use fair/bair/up b and try to stall him out of his Up B fuel or at least gain %, trying to get a kill onstage is frustrating. I'd still consider battlefield among the positives, I'd ban SV/T&C first for obvious reasons.

: Tips on getting the kill? Usually my fight against him is combo galore against each other. Once he gets to high percent I have trouble hitting him with one of G&W's kill moves, I have trouble finding a way lure Ness into spot where I can land a smash attack. He's so floaty and seems to dodge my smash attacks easier than most others once the opportunity does present itself. I think I like Lylatt, FD, or SV against him. Thoughts?

Offstage should be your main kill method, onstage is frustrating much like it is vs ROB. Work on reducing his recovery options (be wary of rising fair/nair/uair) to force him to use his recovery, and then go down and use up B windbox to seal the kill (I'd suggest practicing using the windbox so you know where to postition yourself). Don't use bucket on low recovery as that's a good way to SD and possibly let Ness keep his stock bc of PK thunder's weird properties (you can bucket the trail and not the projectile itself sometimes). Do NOT god SV, a stage that gives Ness more recovery options is an enemy to G&W

 

[Folie]

EDIT: meant to edit previous post, pressed wrong button

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

I was not saying to spam Chef in neutral, that's a terrible idea. However, if you like empty jumps with mixups into back air, it's handy to B-reverse into Chef. Due to the ridiculous amount of hitstun on the foods, you can combo out of Chef with things like forward air, back air, up air, or even go for a hammer.

For : I had not spoken about the type of playstyle you should use versus Cloud. You should be playing just outside of his range, not giving him enough space to charge Limit or use a Blade Beam. Of course you should play safely against him.

For : Again, never said to spam Chef in neutral, but if you mixup with a Chef and end up hitting Luma with the pan, you can get an easy 20-30% on Luma and run away.

For : I'm only saying that if Yoshi extends his combos up to the top platform it becomes a terrible situation. Game and Watch has up B, but landing versus Yoshi can be tricky with Yoshi's option coverage. Other than that, I completely agree with the rest of what you said.

For : Any good Zelda player will play extremely safe, always making sure there's some kind of hitbox to protect retreats and resets. Phantom Slash is used very situationally, and because of the hitbox vhanges, when it does come out and you didn't expressedly bait it out or expect it, it can be very hard to punish. I never said to be reckless with dash attack, if you space back airs correctly, it puts Zelda in a bad position.

For : Down tilt may be laggy, but the windbox lasts the entire duration of the move, which is the essential part for stopping float approaches. You should not use this move when Peach is on the ground, and mixups into up air are essential for windbox juggling.

For : Yes, edgeguarding is where you never let up, but I'm saying that R.O.B. has a ton of mindgames with his recovery, and it becomes like a match in itself. Also, if you do go Battlefield, it's self-explanatory, but try extra-hard not to get grabbed, up throw can kill at 90%.

: It's a huge battle of mindgames and spacing, but once you get Ness offstage, all you have to do is go over there and up B. The invincibility protects you from the initial hitbox and PK Thunder2, and even if you miss, the windbox pushes Ness put of PK Thunder range, resulting in an instant stock.

By the way, what are we fighting about? All we're doing is discussing what we like to do in the matchup and critiquing our styles. Also, thoughts on and ? Corrin seems like an OK matchup, we can definitely duck under forward smash and down smash, but I feel we could lose in the range game. Hopefully Corrin's neutral B grants ultra-power bucket (does 63%, KOs anywhere at 0%) at full charge and at least medium-power bucket (does around 30-40%, KOs around 40%) uncharged. If Bayonetta's startup is just enough, we could have a real match on our hands. Looks like we can shut down her bullets with bucket, duck under forward smash, and maybe be able to slip out of combos and punish her lag with a sweetspot forward smash or hammer.

 

[randomtechguy142857]

Just regarding the matchup, Zelda seems to have a nigh impossible time attacking a crouching G&W. Almost all of her moves will pass overhead, aside from Phantom Slash and Farore's Wind 2 which you can react to, Din's Fire which you can bucket, and Farore's Wind 1, dtilt and dsmash which you can easily out-space with dtilt.

 

[GeekGuru98]

Regarding the Ness matchup here, it's not just up B that's viable against edgeguarding him. In addition to up B, naturally the bucket is an obvious, but still viable tool to use. There's also his wonderful up air that I think is his greatest move for edgeguarding both Ness and Lucas. If you can get under Ness/Lucas and space the up air just right, you can push them up a little and force them to try to adapt and change PK Thunder's direction but I almost guarantee you that they won't adapt in time and they'll be down a stock. In Ness's case,just make sure the ball doesn't hit you or else he'll probably be pushed up but already in free fall since the thunder ball is gone.

 

[Folie]

Up B is safer and more reliable, as I said earlier, bucket can make you SD, and potentially only bucket the trail and not the projectile itself, making you SD for no reason. If they're recovering with pk thunder high for some reason tho, use the bucket

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

Up B is safer and more reliable, as I said earlier, bucket can make you SD, and potentially only bucket the trail and not the projectile itself, making you SD for no reason. If they're recovering with pk thunder high for some reason tho, use the bucket

While I agree that bucket is a pretty risky yet very stylish and disrespectful option, do you (or anyone else) know about the momentum properties of the bucket? The first time you use the bucket, it stalls Game and Watch's momentum, but the second time, it extends it. If you bucket in midair and then jump and bucket as you're jumping, you get a higher jump. What I like to do if I go for a bucket edgeguard is jump offstage, bucket, get near Ness/Lucas and then Bucket Jump. I get back to the stage 99.5% of the time (pretty much no matter how low I go) even if I failed the edgeguard.

By the way, Bucket Jumping is fantastic if you get launched near the blastzone and still have a jump.

 

[Mr.989]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I think its cool to hear and tryout all of the different styles of gameplay, it expands your strategy options and keeps your opponent guessing. Its like upping your arsenal lol.

One trick I kinda discovered on my own that works pretty well (not taking credit of being the first) just one I did on a whim a few times but now actually use it purposely. I throw a few strips of bacon and it seems like opponents like to air dodge and land behind you, I can almost always hit'em with d-smash, the timing and measuring of their landing seems to come easy to me, especially sweet spots. If they land too close for the sweet spot I hit them with the chair instead. Of they drift in front of me I go for the jab lock or d-tilt if they have a weak recovery. Of course I try not spam either of these options or make it obvious to read but it also kinda limits their approaches. Just my little input I guess. Critique of pros and cons on it would be cool to hear. Thanks

 

[Folie]

While I agree that bucket is a pretty risky yet very stylish and disrespectful option, do you (or anyone else) know about the momentum properties of the bucket? The first time you use the bucket, it stalls Game and Watch's momentum, but the second time, it extends it. If you bucket in midair and then jump and bucket as you're jumping, you get a higher jump. What I like to do if I go for a bucket edgeguard is jump offstage, bucket, get near Ness/Lucas and then Bucket Jump. I get back to the stage 99.5% of the time (pretty much no matter how low I go) even if I failed the edgeguard.

By the way, Bucket Jumping is fantastic if you get launched near the blastzone and still have a jump.

It's not really useful as a recovery stall, considering merely pulling out the thing for the shortest time possible results in staying like that for 50 frames, leaves you pretty vulnerable to any character that can drop down and use an aerial safely. G&W's up-b is good enough of a recovery that you usually dont have to stall against most characters anyways, and when you do, it usually just means delaying recovering for a short moment so you dont get hit by something like rosa dair.

As far as gimping Ness goes, the main problem with doing that is that you're wasting your second jump, so it's still risky, and there's still a potential of mistiming and only catching the trail. Not much sense in using it when ness is recovering low when up-b windbox is safer, easier, and more reliable

 

[randomtechguy142857]

Of they drift in front of me I go for the jab lock

How does one jab lock with G&W in this situation? Do you hit them with a sourspot fair, or is there another move which locks which I'm not aware of?

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

How does one jab lock with G&W in this situation? Do you hit them with a sourspot fair, or is there another move which locks which I'm not aware of?

Maybe a 2 hammer? Only that and sourspot fair jablock. But does he maybe mean if they hit the food? If so, it's not possible to be put in a tech situation from the food.

One trick I kinda discovered on my own that works pretty well (not taking credit of being the first) just one I did on a whim a few times but now actually use it purposely. I throw a few strips of bacon and it seems like opponents like to air dodge and land behind you, I can almost always hit'em with d-smash, the timing and measuring of their landing seems to come easy to me, especially sweet spots. If they land too close for the sweet spot I hit them with the chair instead. Of they drift in front of me I go for the jab lock or d-tilt if they have a weak recovery. Of course I try not spam either of these options or make it obvious to read but it also kinda limits their approaches. Just my little input I guess. Critique of pros and cons on it would be cool to hear. Thanks

I love doing crazy things with the food. The more food the opponent gets caught on, the better your punish can be. The best options for 1-2 food collisions are a forward air, back air, grab, nair, or up B, but with 2-3 food collisions, I've done things like up air, Judge, bucket, down air, and smashes. It's fantastic versus characters who can't recover too low or sweetspot the ledge. I would mix it up between doing that, going deep offstage, and going low and using up B to cover both a low recovery and a jump.