My problems with the Sheik Changes

[foxygrandpa]

I don't think umbreon was saying to remove the upsmash kill in a vacuum, but just the throw into it.

Transform needs to go.
Chain needed to go 4 releases ago.

Sheik is dumb now honestly. 2 unusable specials, terrible recovery, all attacks are CC able, and her throws are probably the worst in the game. There needs to be a point in development where characters aren't blindly gutted anymore. Frustrating, I think i'm just going to wait until the next version to see whether or not I'll drop this game entirely.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i already quit, at least for now. sheik atm is garbage, you have a weak neutral, bad combo weight, bad recovery, and nothing to make up for it. her punishment game is **** vs anyone that knows what shes doing, and the worst part is that she STILL has unwinnable MUs in her favor because the other chars are also underpowered and can just lose the MU anyway like link. you can be like "sheik is still good" but that only works when the opponent misplays heavily and says more about them than you, at top end play it just doesnt cut it.

and yeah i meant to remove upsmash tip kill entirely, sheik does NOT need to be killing people off the top at 80, none of the rest of the character plays like that and regular upsmash is still a good move. 3.5 sheik was slightly too good, and i would have toned her down super slightly without changing her core design. but im sorry this character is trash in this version. literally all of the sheik players quit the first week of 3.6. you know whats worse than a character with a broken attribute? when no one plays the game.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

yeah i already quit, at least for now. sheik atm is garbage, you have a weak neutral, bad combo weight, bad recovery, and nothing to make up for it. her punishment game is **** vs anyone that knows what shes doing, and the worst part is that she STILL has unwinnable MUs in her favor because the other chars are also underpowered and can just lose the MU anyway like link. you can be like "sheik is still good" but that only works when the opponent misplays heavily and says more about them than you, at top end play it just doesnt cut it.

I totally agree. She needs at least a couple proactive approaches at low percentages. You can only bait people so much before they start learning you. Otherwise we're stuck in this messed up situation where "she's really good if you're bad". Which is dumb since that should be the case for everyone.

and yeah i meant to remove upsmash tip kill entirely, sheik does NOT need to be killing people off the top at 80, none of the rest of the character plays like that and regular upsmash is still a good move.

-Moans and groans louder- Meh, I'll suck it up

 

[4tlas]

I can see the argument that tipper upsmash is extra power she doesn't need, but then you're just making her more of "techchase and edgeguard: the character". "None of the rest of the character plays like that" is EXACTLY why you should keep it. If a character has exactly one streamlined gameplan then the game is boring.

 

[Deleted member]

the problem with upsmash kills is that simple setups into it make it uber powerful and gives the dev team good reason to nerf throws, but we -need- throws because thats the crux of how we beat CC abuse. sheik has weak approaches already and has issues to DD abuse but at least her 3.5 punish game mitigated that quite a bit so you only had to outplay the DD a few times. if we keep upsmash then we pretty much have to lose grabs which is a death sentence. and tbh sheik is like bowser atm where if she gets you she can kill you but she cant get you so it doesnt matter. i would rather have godlike conversions that funneled into a reliable plan rather than upsmash between the two

3.5 sheik was def too good but she wasnt really a problem character, imo it would be super easy to nerf that to where she should be rather than making the character absolute trash and making everyone quit. its not even like shes aesthetically developed, she has no bonus content, no cool taunts or easter eggs, nothing. theres literally no reason to play her atm

 

[4tlas]

the problem with upsmash kills is that simple setups into it make it uber powerful and gives the dev team good reason to nerf throws, but we -need- throws because thats the crux of how we beat CC abuse. sheik has weak approaches already and has issues to DD abuse but at least her 3.5 punish game mitigated that quite a bit so you only had to outplay the DD a few times. if we keep upsmash then we pretty much have to lose grabs which is a death sentence. and tbh sheik is like bowser atm where if she gets you she can kill you but she cant get you so it doesnt matter. i would rather have godlike conversions that funneled into a reliable plan rather than upsmash between the two

3.5 sheik was def too good but she wasnt really a problem character, imo it would be super easy to nerf that to where she should be rather than making the character absolute trash and making everyone quit. its not even like shes aesthetically developed, she has no bonus content, no cool taunts or easter eggs, nothing. theres literally no reason to play her atm

Fair points, but I think you should come up with something weird to replace tipper upsmash then. Perhaps it could be part of a new sideB (or put needles on sideB and make a new neutralB). I also think weakening tipper upsmash so it kills later would be fine, since if you're adding KBG to the throws then she won't be getting throws into tipper upsmashs that kill. They either combo and don't kill, or you have to raw tipper to kill.

That might happen already without weakening tipper just by changing the throws. Test it out first and see how it goes!

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

So what do we truly want Sheik to be?
The EdgeGuard Queen, or what?

If that's the case we need more tools in her kit that encourages carrying people to and off the edge.

 

[Deleted member]

So what do we truly want Sheik to be?
The EdgeGuard Queen, or what?

If that's the case we need more tools in her kit that encourages carrying people to and off the edge.

lol we really dont, with actual conversions sheik is already godmode at that strat. what we really need is subtle nerfs to the char that put her on par with a firm high tier because 3.5 sheik was realistically just a little too good. i dont want to hit parts that come up often, id rather hit something that feels ******** and leave her framework in tact

but yeah with actual throws sheik has no problem killing lol

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

lol we really dont, with actual conversions sheik is already godmode at that strat. what we really need is subtle nerfs to the char that put her on par with a firm high tier because 3.5 sheik was realistically just a little too good. i dont want to hit parts that come up often, id rather hit something that feels ******** and leave her framework in tact

but yeah with actual throws sheik has no problem killing lol

You might wanna make yourself clearer when you say "a little too good", sounds like you're afraid to reveal potential. Otherwise, yea I don't mind a constructive rework that optimizes her strengths and creates more proactive approaches.
That's what I meant in my post. It wasn't necessarily about killing power/taking stocks, that was never an issue. It's just the journey there is such a draaaaaaag.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

She was a little too good in the sense that off one grab we could 0-Death on a good portion of the cast ( http://gfycat.com/WelllitWideeyedHackee )

It made us scary in neutral, and Sheik's punish game is ruthless once an opponent is near the edges. (I'm not particularly good at mid-stage combos or conversion strings)

 

[4tlas]

She was a little too good in the sense that off one grab we could 0-Death on a good portion of the cast ( http://gfycat.com/WelllitWideeyedHackee )

It made us scary in neutral, and Sheik's punish game is ruthless once an opponent is near the edges. (I'm not particularly good at mid-stage combos or conversion strings)

He DI'd poorly 8 times I think. The throws could stand to have more KBG so the grabs don't lead into kills as easily, but that threat of tremendous success made opponents fear grabs while keeping the actual average success rate low. The mixup itself is a good mechanic. Hell, most of the characters in PM have throw mixups!

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Understandably, the DT doesn't wan't her game plan to be centered around guessing games for the opponent that lead up to ~80% when they screw up. (See SFIV:AE2012 Vortex)
With that being said, to whoever looks over Sheik in the DT, give some good proactive options compensate. :T

 

[4tlas]

Understandably, the DT doesn't wan't her game plan to be centered around guessing games for the opponent that lead up to ~80% when they screw up. (See SFIV:AE2012 Vortex)
With that being said, to whoever looks over Sheik in the DT, give some good proactive options compensate. :T

I agree 80% is a lot, but he also screwed up 8 times. If it were truly a flip of the coin, that should only happen 1/256 times (that might arguably be too much still). But it isn't just the flip of a coin, its a guessing game like all of Smash, where you use the information you have and intuition to guess at what choice your opponent will make before countering it.

Again, the numbers and actual power level may have been too high, but the concept is sound.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I agree 80% is a lot, but he also screwed up 8 times. If it were truly a flip of the coin, that should only happen 1/256 times (that might arguably be too much still). But it isn't just the flip of a coin, its a guessing game like all of Smash, where you use the information you have and intuition to guess at what choice your opponent will make before countering it.

Again, the numbers and actual power level may have been too high, but the concept is sound.

The difference is we were pulling the strings on this guessing game, not solely the game's system itself. IIRC all you had to do was DI down-away and you had a window of escape. If your opponent knew that, the "mixup" wasn't all that useful anymore.

 

[4tlas]

The difference is we were pulling the strings on this guessing game, not solely the game's system itself. IIRC all you had to do was DI down-away and you had a window of escape. If your opponent knew that, the "mixup" wasn't all that useful anymore.

Sheik got the chance to pull the strings because the opponent let themselves get grabbed. Also many characters could not just DI down-away, especially since the whole point was that "away" swapped with the throws. The 100% correct-everytime-DI is now down and away because it works for all her non-reactable throws, and you can change your DI for all her other throws.

It may have been too powerful, I don't know. But the core concept is fine and can be adjusted to remove the undesirable parts, whichever those may be.

 

[Deleted member]

having a reliable punishment out of grab is def not too powerful, especially since like the other 40/41 characters can do that. what made it too powerful? she doesnt have the best neutral, and she still has issues with CC/DD. now theres just no counterplay- nothing. sheik ****ing sucks now

 

[4tlas]

having a reliable punishment out of grab is def not too powerful, especially since like the other 40/41 characters can do that. what made it too powerful? she doesnt have the best neutral, and she still has issues with CC/DD. now theres just no counterplay- nothing. sheik ****ing sucks now

I don't know what made it too powerful, that's what I keep asking people. Apparently its the combination of regrabs, tipper upsmash, and techchases. Perhaps weakening each a little would be satisfactory? Removing one outright would reduce options and again lead to boring play like we have now (no regrabs or tipper upsmash out of grab).

 

[foxygrandpa]

lol we really dont, with actual conversions sheik is already godmode at that strat. what we really need is subtle nerfs to the char that put her on par with a firm high tier because 3.5 sheik was realistically just a little too good. i dont want to hit parts that come up often, id rather hit something that feels ******** and leave her framework in tact

but yeah with actual throws sheik has no problem killing lol

I'd be in agreement if her upsmash had higher base knockback, so she can actually punish fastfallers at low percent.

I kind of like upsmash though, and other moves still convert into it, so I'd rather just have grabs with a little more growth that didn't link into it at higher percents, or maybe a usable upthrow.

Even in melee, there is a stigma against sheik and sheik players, and it's even worse because a lot of pm players don't understand how to fight her properly. Everyone still seems to think that sheik's grabs are OP for some reason, so I doubt that anything productive will be done with her, sadly.

 

[Missile]

She was a little too good in the sense that off one grab we could 0-Death on a good portion of the cast ( http://gfycat.com/WelllitWideeyedHackee )

It made us scary in neutral, and Sheik's punish game is ruthless once an opponent is near the edges. (I'm not particularly good at mid-stage combos or conversion strings)

The more I watch this, the more of a poor representation of what her grab game ACTUALLY is this seems to me.

The ZSS POORLY DI'd her throws, and once Sheik dropped the string, he just jumped into the stage, put on shield and got grabbed again. This is more a representation of what happens when a poorly skilled player fights a Sheik that knows what to do with a grab. This is HARDLY a criteria to go by when balancing Sheik.


Anyways, I'll see you guys on the Metaknight boards hopefully. I'm down to use a slightly heavy, fast falling, low short hopping character with ridiculous crouch cancel and options out of it, a d-throw that leads into guaranteed tech chases since it forces tumble, multiple jumps and recovery special moves, fast faller juggling options, greater running speed than Sheik which translates into needing not-as-fast reaction times for successful tech chasing.

Call me when Sheik gets re-balanced so I can secondary her since Metaknight is a the better Sheik now.

 

[Deleted member]

actually the base kb idea for upsmash is pretty smart, the problem is you have to be careful that it doesnt just combo into itself like four times on X combo weight

also i got 5th in teams, realized that sheik's version of marthritis means i have to ban delfino secret and distant planet every time or else shes worthless because edge guarding takes too long in teams. i thought she would be mostly unaffected in teams but you have no kill setups to eliminate stray hurt opponents outside of like dair and people just block and its awful

 

[Missile]

actually the base kb idea for upsmash is pretty smart, the problem is you have to be careful that it doesnt just combo into itself like four times on X combo weight

You mean like Metaknight's usmash on spacies and falcon at low %? LMAO

Ok, heading back to the MK boards lololol

 

[Deleted member]

You mean like Metaknight's usmash on spacies and falcon at low %? LMAO

Ok, heading back to the MK boards lololol

i mean i cant defend it, i just try to be reasonable despite the obvious inclination not to be. its hard for me too lol.

 

[KinGly]

The largest issue with sheik in my region is that everyone that I play against still believes that sheik is top 5 because they won't bother to research/theorycraft her flaws in her current state. I cannot convince a single person in north LA that sheik has the worst grab game in pm, and that she cannot approach or do anything but needle camp. Needles are her one saving grace at this point but it's just not enough for her in most cases. The biggest problem is she still has really good matchup against a handful of characters and these matchups are cited when I try to explain how weak she is. I don't really like anyone else in pm and melee feels awkward so I'm probably just gonna coast til 4.0 drops and hopefully fixes this mess.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The largest issue with sheik in my region is that everyone that I play against still believes that sheik is top 5 because they won't bother to research/theorycraft her flaws in her current state. I cannot convince a single person in north LA that sheik has the worst grab game in pm, and that she cannot approach or do anything but needle camp. Needles are her one saving grace at this point but it's just not enough for her in most cases. The biggest problem is she still has really good matchup against a handful of characters and these matchups are cited when I try to explain how weak she is. I don't really like anyone else in pm and melee feels awkward so I'm probably just gonna coast til 4.0 drops and hopefully fixes this mess.

Good Sheik players get away with a lot, because the average player don't understand these points.

 

[KinGly]

Good Sheik players get away with a lot, because the average player don't understand these points.

I really don't enderstand how though. Sheik is pretty simple compared to some characters such as squirtle, lucario, sonic, bowser, g&w, ness, etc. there isn't much character specific stuff to know but no one puts in the research.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I really don't enderstand how though. Sheik is pretty simple compared to some characters such as squirtle, lucario, sonic, bowser, g&w, ness, etc. there isn't much character specific stuff to know but no one puts in the research.

"I'm gonna press a whole bunch of buttons against Sheik, yeah!". Then they're punish food, and probably lose, then "Sheik is so cheap." It happens.

 

[Thor]

My posts on the previous page assumed dthrow always forced tumble. Read something indicating it doesn't. If it doesn't, that's just pathetic.

PMDT, buff Sheik for 3.6 [slightly]. AT LEAST make throws tumble, but AuraMaudeGone suggested something along the lines of allowing her chain as a second grab... idk what it would do in the air, but I think allowing her both a default grab and a tether grab would actually be a supremely interesting idea, at least considering Sheik is currently a grab-and-gimp based character whose dthrow is now insufficient for doing so [seriously, it should be forcing tumble, there was this issue with Link's dthrow a while back, and how bad MK dthrow was in 3.5... shouldn't have to repeat the process over and over and over again].

 

[Steak1ey]

complain when you get good at the game
also, have a little more pride in your character, talk about what's good about her instead of pointing out all of the flaws in her changes. that's how you get better, that's how you polarize.
That's why Dtl is super good with his tink nairs, he lost his boot but still adapted and has an amazing pressure game.

 

[Deleted member]

complain when you get good at the game

lol youre right

 

[KinGly]

Yeah Umbreon, you inexperienced plebeian. Ten more years of smash and then you can complain

 

[Steak1ey]

lol youre right

was directed at OP son
If you've got a record to back it up, I'm not gonna be the one to directly challenge it, but I disagree with the mindset as a whole since I tend to be optimistic. I believe a nerf is an opportunity to explore other aspects of the character. Any melee ness player such as I is going to have that mindset, because you HAVE to lol.
when in doubt just remember you're not as ****ed as melee ness

 

[Deleted member]

i was the #2 melee ness for years after MasterofFlames89 (MoFo) and i was perfectly fine with that character.

 

[Steak1ey]

i was the #2 melee ness for years after MasterofFlames89 (MoFo) and i was perfectly fine with that character.

are you saying shiek is less viable in pm than Ness is in melee? You cray lol.
switch to pm ness thennnnnnnnnnnnn

 

[Arcalyth]

PM Sheik is unviable against anyone who knows how to CC or DI away.

Comparing to Melee doesn't work because the weight classes of relevant characters in Melee (i.e. everyone who doesn't get dthrow looped to death by Sheik) doesn't make CC broken across the entire cast. Additionally, Melee Sheik's needles are far more useful for forcing mistakes in opponents because they're much more difficult to clank. In Melee you had to counter with movement, in PM attacking is a similarly-valued option to movement (which still takes precedence but attacking overall is a much stronger option across the entire cast in PM compared to Melee).

DI away isn't a problem for Melee Sheik because she can literally chaingrab to death on the majority of the cast.
Top Tiers in Melee are anyone who can counter Sheik, because Sheik counters such a huge portion of the cast (with one move!).

Sheik's throw followups (in 3.6) are unreliable. Yes, you can tech chase people all day but that's if you can win neutral as PM Sheik which is much more difficult when she only has two real approach options (dash attack and boost grab). You can WD>ftilt/dtilt or even pivot fsmash but there is no guaranteed followup on DI away, and that's if it even hits to begin with. You can CC all of her normals well past 80%. She doesn't benefit from bait options like needles which are underwhelming in comparison to similar utilities like Falco's laser, Snake's tranquilizer, ZSS's blaster, ROB's laser, and Link's boomerang.

I purposely left out Fair as an approach option because a Sheik in the air is a dead Sheik (especially in PM) due to her awful air mobility and high short hop. Yes, AC fair is great in neutral but it's not an approach option. Most of Sheik's toolkit when combined with her physics makes her a very "come-to-me" type character. This is common knowledge, but in PM she can't even play hit and run because of crouch cancelling.

PM Sheik has to significantly outplay any other character in order to win. Anyone losing to Sheik in her current incarnation simply doesn't know how to DI properly or doesn't know how to counterplay needles. Any Melee veteran should be able to destroy PM Sheik. Let's also not forget that one (arguably two) of her special moves are nearly useless, on top of the fact that many other characters possess similar tools to PM Sheik.
- Those tools being good mobility (hindered by a vulnerable dashdance, mitigated by a great wavedash) which translates into good tech chasing (most characters have grabs that force a tech chase situation and some characters are even GUARANTEED that situation off of a throw. Sheik is not which is strange for a grab-based character?)
- A good projectile that is outshined by similarly-utilized projectiles listed above (and all of those characters save Falco have way better physics and a fully-developed toolkit on top of more disjoint and harder-hitting hitboxes)

But to compare to her weaknesses:
- Crouch cancelling
- Terrible airspeed
- Combo food weight
- Lack of approach options
- Lackluster punish game vs DI away

And to be fair,
- Average recovery
- Above-average edgeguarding ability (fantastic ledge play in the form of invincible nair/bair, ledge>onstage dair, + needles)

Why can't we bring her to a level where her tools actually work as intended?
What about all of the other characters who have hard KO options with big meaty hitboxes or kill throws? On top of the fact that they all get grab mixups and buffed approach options?

Sheik CAN be great but she is lackluster in this patch. Even with her <3.6 throws she still had all of the same weaknesses, but now instead of being able to convert into at least a solid edgeguard scenario off of a throw, she'll get a string of resets worth 35% each at best. (The point being, she has to work way harder to do the things she's supposed to do compared to other, more "jack-of-all-trades" characters like MK, Diddy, Pit, ZSS and others that I've mentioned before, and they don't share her weaknesses or incompleteness of toolkit)

"Get better" isn't really a valid argument here. Yeah we can always get better, doesn't necessarily mean that we don't know what we're talking about.

Edit: btw none of this takes into account that grab is beat by sidestep and your grab is probably telegraphed by your spacing. The obvious answer is JC grab and then you still have to deal with Attack being such a powerful option in PM...

 

[Deleted member]

i mean, i liked ness in melee because hes fun. bad, but fun. atm sheik is just bad. i tried to be conservative at first, but playing other good people shows you how hilariously bad she is now.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Sheik CAN be great but she is lackluster in this patch. Even with her <3.6 throws she still had all of the same weaknesses, but now instead of being able to convert into at least a solid edgeguard scenario off of a throw, she'll get a string of resets worth 35% each at best. (The point being, she has to work way harder to do the things she's supposed to do compared to other, more "jack-of-all-trades" characters like MK, Diddy, Pit, ZSS and others that I've mentioned before, and they don't share her weaknesses or incompleteness of toolkit)

"Get better" isn't really a valid argument here. Yeah we can always get better, doesn't necessarily mean that we don't know what we're talking about.

Edit: btw none of this takes into account that grab is beat by sidestep and your grab is probably telegraphed by your spacing. The obvious answer is JC grab and then you still have to deal with Attack being such a powerful option in PM...

I find this post somewhat confusing because like you said the same weaknesses she has now, she always had them. Just because B-Throw got changed to PAL Melee style doesn't make Sheik terrible, just boring as hell. "Git gud" is pretty valid and I don't believe Sheik entire gameplan was so dependent on 3.5's B-Throw.
So much doom and gloom.

 

[Arcalyth]

3.5 bthrow prevented sheik from losing to DI away every grab. Before, the opponent had to react instead of just holding the control stick one way. Sheik usually won't uthrow unless it's to set up a platform tech chase which is risky because the opponent will be out of hitstun before sheik is threatening in most cases. She won't fthrow/bthrow in most cases because dthrow accomplishes the same and more except in niche edgeguard scenarios. This makes grab unreliable for building damage. Sheik imo shouldn't be based ONLY on tech chasing and edgeguarding/gimping people to death.

All very important if sheik is a grab based character. She should be rewarded with more than simply space for landing a grab, especially since she is so substantially weak to CC and doesn't have any other viable counter to that problem.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

3.5 bthrow prevented sheik from losing to DI away every grab. Before, the opponent had to react instead of just holding the control stick one way. Sheik usually won't uthrow unless it's to set up a platform tech chase which is risky because the opponent will be out of hitstun before sheik is threatening in most cases. She won't fthrow/bthrow in most cases because dthrow accomplishes the same and more except in niche edgeguard scenarios. This makes grab unreliable for building damage. Sheik imo shouldn't be based ONLY on tech chasing and edgeguarding/gimping people to death.

All very important if sheik is a grab based character. She should be rewarded with more than simply space for landing a grab, especially since she is so substantially weak to CC and doesn't have any other viable counter to that problem.

What you missed is that the DT clearly does not want Sheik to be centered around grabs, as mentioned before. So basically, we would have to come up with things that don't involve a throw-centric game plan that her more interesting.

Hi there.

Believe it or not, there are still reasons to grab and throw characters with Sheik in v3.6(beta). Down Throw is still a pretty strong throw for position and still allows for re-grabs because of how strong/long her boost grab is as well as dash attacks which are a pretty staple launcher. In addition, if characters are forced to tech --- because of the way that teching works in this game (it does not conserve your momentum into the tech roll), it is actually easier to tech chase characters across the board. A very easily observable victim of this is Bowser, who has some of the easiest techs to catch in the game.

If someone DI's incorrectly, you are still able to follow up with aerials such as fair or nair or etc, but the primary goal of Sheik (like in Melee) is to stretch the knockdown and choke out positioning from opposing characters. There are a myriad of ways to accomplish various things post the knockdown or off of poor DI choice. DSmash, Dair, DACUS, boost USmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Fsmash and the aforementioned dash attack are all moves that launch characters upwards or outwards into the rest of her aerial game.

As far as the reasoning behind the change of B-Throw/D-Throw, both of the throws had the exact same stats: 8 Damage, Angle of 62, 70 BKB and 55 KBG, however both of them had different release points. Down Throw released closer to her and further away and Back Throw released higher and farther away... but you could act sooner from it. What this meant is that for most characters, not only were you able to do all of the things that I mentioned in the previous paragraph (various launchers, tech chase, etc), but it also enabled those "Oops, I died." guess scenarios with DACUS/fair/nair that many opposing players were forced into.

While I would probably agree that Sheik has lost some of the fun quotient that the mixup had, I don't think the assertion that "there is no reason to throw" or that "there is no point in grabbing" is valid. If you feel like there is a more interesting character for you to play now, that's unfortunate, but I wish ya'll the best. I'll still be sticking it out with Sheik for the most part though and seeing what I can learn. I think that she is still a strong character in this version and I have fun playing her.

As far as other 50/50 guess scenarios go, even if they might not have been changed currently, we are looking into those and coming up with ways to address things like that. A lot of characters get changes between every version of the game. If we don't change something at a certain time, it generally means that we aren't confident in a solution or maybe it's not something that has been presented as a problem. We have to look at things in a broad light in development so sometimes things won't always work out immediately.

#pleaseunderstand

 

[foxygrandpa]

What you missed is that the DT clearly does not want Sheik to be centered around grabs, as mentioned before. So basically, we would have to come up with things that don't involve a throw-centric game plan that her more interesting.

The sheik changes didn't make her not centered around grabs, so I don't think that's really the point of the changes at all. Keeping the character interesting wasn't the point of the changes. They thought sheik was too good (and she probably was) and they wanted to nerf her. Changing the character to create a more interesting gameplan was not the objective of the changes. In fact, they made her less interesting than ever before.

The sheik changes ironically made her more centered around grabs than ever before, considering that having no reliable launcher means that the only way she can push an opponent to the edge is on the ground with the worst grab game of anyone in the cast.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The sheik changes didn't make her not centered around grabs, so I don't think that's really the point of the changes at all. Keeping the character interesting wasn't the point of the changes. They thought sheik was too good (and she probably was) and they wanted to nerf her. Changing the character to create a more interesting gameplan was not the objective of the changes. In fact, they made her less interesting than ever before.

The sheik changes ironically made her more centered around grabs than ever before, considering that having no reliable launcher means that the only way she can push an opponent to the edge is on the ground with the worst grab game of anyone in the cast.

I didn't specifically say the 3.5 changes made her more centered around grabs, I was more talking about Arcalyth's desire to be so in general. I know their design goal may have not been making Sheik more interesting, that was my suggestion they should.