Neon's Match-up Discussion

[drummaniac28]

Does anyone have any experience in Lucas dittos? I have a $50 MM coming up this Saturday and while I'm confident I'll win, I wanted to see if there are any quirks are gimmicks I should use/expect. From my brief experimentation so far, I'm pretty sure Lucas has a chaingrab on himself, but I'm not sure to what percentage exactly (can never really tell with CPUs). Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Master WGS]

Does anyone have any experience in Lucas dittos? I have a $50 MM coming up this Saturday and while I'm confident I'll win, I wanted to see if there are any quirks are gimmicks I should use/expect. From my brief experimentation so far, I'm pretty sure Lucas has a chaingrab on himself, but I'm not sure to what percentage exactly (can never really tell with CPUs). Any help would be appreciated.

The only experience I've had (not a whole lot) revolved mostly around defensive PKF play, and moving in for devastating punishes once one of us connected. Use Magnet and stuff to mess with your descent/air movement, and just be patient. I'm no pro, though, so I'm sure there are lots of better qualified answers and answerers somewhere in this thread.

I've been having the darndest time fighting Puff and Falcon. I don't know why, because on paper I feel like Lucas would do at least pretty well against either, but it's been rough. Any advice on either matchup?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Falcon is a dumb matchup. Don't use PKF unless he's a long distance away (It's bad Mid-range and even worse up close) utilize safe pressure once you're up close so you don't get grabbed, and don't drop your combos. Would also like to mention the great utility of Burst in the matchup as it forces Falcon to keep his combos air tight and punishes obvious/repeated approaches.

Haven't fought Puff much myself.

Also, even though it looks like it might not, Magnet does absorb PKF

 

[Zimflare]

Short hop PKF at the peak stops falcon kick but then again just like yars said, not a good thing to be used up close.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Falcon's Nair will cut through Freeze AND hit you too so you have to be careful.

 

[Clade]

What do you guys think about Luigi?

I played one last weekend in gf`s. I had a lot of trouble since he can combo the **** out of us and we`re just playing hit and run. Sometimes I got a PK Freeze to 2 Fairs but more isn`t working, cause Luigis nair is SO fast.

And Wario Ware felt so bad for me.

So....help? :D

 

[Spice]

What do you guys think about Luigi?

I played one last weekend in gf`s. I had a lot of trouble since he can combo the **** out of us and we`re just playing hit and run. Sometimes I got a PK Freeze to 2 Fairs but more isn`t working, cause Luigis nair is SO fast.

And Wario Ware felt so bad for me.

So....help? :D

Like most floaties (Peach aside, she is combo fuel for Lucas if you play right), you have to play hit and run. Don't ever put yourself in a position (read: chase a hit at low percentage) where a Nair can break your combo, Luigi's Nair is scary. It will kill you at high percent. Also he can do like 3 aerials before he hits the ground.

Lots of PK Freeze, good grabs, don't go combo crazy because it isn't going to work. It's a pretty grindy match, but I think Lucas still might have a slight advantage here if you play carefully. At least 50/50 for the same skill level of players imo.

 

[Lukingordex]

I played the Lucas vs Ness match up as Ness and I noticed I could easily just grab Lucas, dthrow and grab again like everytime, i'm guessing my oponent didn't know how to DI, is my guess true?

 

[Kipcom]

I played the Lucas vs Ness match up as Ness and I noticed I could easily just grab Lucas, dthrow and grab again like everytime, i'm guessing my oponent didn't know how to DI, is my guess true?

If they DI forward, you can run up and grab again. If they DI behind Ness, he can just turn around and grab. If they don't DI at all, I'm pretty sure Ness just stands there and grabs again.

You can get out of it if you stop your fall with Magnet before Ness can grab you again, but I think it only works after a certain percent.

 

[NeonApophis]

Every Ness I've played against goes for Bair when I di back. I don't have a setup to test this on, but I'm pretty sure you can pk burst or do something else if he tries to wait and regrab. I only DI forward against his d throw when I need to reposition myself before getting baired, or to try to land on a platform and tech(roll) out of the combo.

 

[Kipcom]

What do you think about the Marth matchup, Neon?

It's really hard for me to make safe approaches against Marth, and keeping a distance with PKF doesn't really seem to help me much, as Marth can just knock away PKF with pretty much any aerial.

In general, what ways can I do to improve my neutral against Marth, because I feel like Marth is one of those characters who can counter a lot of Lucas's offense and defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=164RX771u0k
This is a set with me fighting a Marth, luckily I didn't get baited too often and he didn't juggle me. Any advice on what I can do better?

 

[Fortune]

@ Kipcom : I just watched game 2 of that set.
1. If PKF isn't working in neutral, you can't just auto pilot and run at them with an aerial at the first chance you get. I saw you would run towards marth and aerial as if he was just going to stand there and get hit. Marth is all about the dash dancing game, so you can expect a marth player to just dashdance back and punish you for this kind of aerial. Once you see marth dashdancing like this, you should run at him without doing an aerial right away. Marth will dash dance back to punish the aerial he is expecting, and you can just keep running at him and THEN aerial or attack in whatever way you see fit. This kind of timing mixup is really important to keep a strong offense once the PKF option is taken away from you.
2. Try not to reel into the ledge ASAP once you tether, Marth can forward smash you, and probably hit you with other moves as well. You got hit by a forward smash in this way. If you just wait a short time, marth will attack since he's predicting the reel in and not reacting to the reel in. THEN it is safe to reel in.
3. If you get a down tilt like you did at 5:14, you should up angle forward smash, up smash, or grab. It's a free kill.
4. At 7:00. You probably know this, but you should up throw here.

 

[Kipcom]

Thanks, @ Fortune . Yeah, like I said, I fall for Marth tactics pretty often and it's something i definitely need to work on. I'm still not very good at the matchup. :/

2. Yeah, I realized that somewhere in the set. I'm pretty sure there was an instance in the video where I just hung on to the ledge with the rope snake before reeling in...Though if I'm wrong, I know about the tactic anyway now.

3. I honestly don't even remember what I was trying to do there. I definitely should have grabbed or something like you said.

4. That was accidental and I instantly regretted not doing it.

Thanks for the advice though. I'll try to put it to good use!

 

[zFrost]

hey neon your MU information is amazing, do you think you could maybe update the op with like averages on how well lucas does in a certain matchup against the whole roster? like lucas vs mario is 45/55 in mario's favor, <(just an example) at least as it stands at the moment. i know it'd help a lot of players maybe counterpick they're characters easier if they have a wider array and it'll open up more discussion on why that MU is in the favor of who it is.

 

[Nayyr]

Anyone have any thoughts on the MK MU on warioware? My friend is a MK main and we're generally pretty evenly matched, but he just destroys me on warioware. I re-watched some of our matched and noticed I was getting punished a lot trying for djc pkf due to how small the stage is.

 

[Fortune]

Yeah, it's important to cut down on PKF on smaller stages. I think MK vs Lucas is better for MK on smaller stages because there's always an edge nearby, and MK is good at edgeguarding Lucas.

 

[Lukingordex]

Anyone have any thoughts on the MK MU on warioware? My friend is a MK main and we're generally pretty evenly matched, but he just destroys me on warioware. I re-watched some of our matched and noticed I was getting punished a lot trying for djc pkf due to how small the stage is.

that's because MK is good in WarioWare, it's probably not your fault really, just avoid this stage against MK.

 

[Nayyr]

I completely agree. I feel like I can't space out his dair at all and once he gets me off it's all over. Fortune, do you have any tips on how to approach the matchup on warioware?

 

[Nayyr]

that's because MK is good in WarioWare, it's probably not your fault really, just avoid this stage against MK.

Well that's good to know at least. I was just in awe of how bad I was on that stage.

 

[Fortune]

Sure. Try play a strong horizontal spacing/baiting game, with the lowest DJC, dash dancing, and wavedashing. I think it's important to stay on the ground and below short hop height, because if meta knight gets under you and starts to up air, it's a lot of damage. It's even worse on this stage because you're likely near the edge and ripe for an edgeguard. If he's hitting you with dair a lot, the horizontal mobility of dashdancing+wavedashing should help you get out of the way. If he's still getting you with it, you can try hanging out under the platforms most of the time.

 

[Nayyr]

Anyone have any advice against Link? I recently played one and just got destroyed, then I beat his other characters without too much trouble. I've started getting a pocket mario due to the link frustration.

 

[Fortune]

Don't underestimate how fast Link's grab comes out. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in this matchup is where you are relative to Link. You want to either be far enough away that he can't hit you with anything, or right on top of him with pressure and combos. If you ever find yourself in that middle range where boomerang/bombs/grapple will mess you up, immediately leave. The tricky part to actually winning (as opposed to just not getting hit by b/b/g) is getting to the Link. In my experience, you want to wait until the boomerang is thrown and then go in (taking a route that will avoid the return path of the boomerang). Once you're there, you should be good as long as your combos/tech are on point. If you're chasing link across the stage, beware pivot grab.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Links/Lucas heavily favors Link because Link can cg lucas to at least 0-30/50 (forgot which) into nair and edgeguard him. Lucas gets shut down by boomerang a good bit but if Lucas can navigate around it and his bombs, he's in a good position. Most Lucas players consider Link one of his worst matchups.

 

[Nayyr]

Getting in was my issue. The matches where I was able to get in some of the time (mostly on battlefield and yoshi's story) I did a lot better, getting 2 stocked instead of 3. I'm still not to the point in my play that 90% of my punishes end in a kill. I just picked up the game around 4 -5 months ago, though I think I'm progressing pretty well. I went from getting bodied by everyone at friendlies to going about 50%.

 

[Nayyr]

I think I might develop my pocket mario a bit more as I've heard some link players complain about him.

 

[Fortune]

If you like Lucas and think he's fun, I would recommend just sticking with him. Link is hard to learn to play against, but after playing the matchup in 10 sets or so (what ended up happening to me) it's not so hard.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Just in general, sticking to your main and learning harder matchups instead of resorting to a secondary makes you an overall better player and makes you and your character develop a lot more quickly.

 

[Spice]

DJC PK Freeze. Hit him with it before he shoots an arrow or boomerang your way, do it again while moving towards him, and bam you're in. Link is really bad at dealing with really close pressure, especially without a bomb in hand. He is kind of like Marth in that regard, except he has medium to long range projectile options.

Also Link is a huge ***** and he is being changed quite a bit in 3.5 from what I've heard so I wouldn't worry too much about dealing with his current build.

 

[zFrost]

how about the falco matchup? i don't have time to pkf while he's lasering

 

[Fortune]

Don't be in Falco's approach range when on the ground. Either be far enough away that you can absorb the lasers without getting punished, or close enough that he won't laser. If the Falco is lasering a lot go over the lasers and mixup approaches. Try to push him to the edge of the stage. I think PKF is ok in this matchup when you do it landing from running off a platform or out of a full jump. Otherwise it's just too predictable and will lose to lasers.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

If you hit marth with pkf, he'll double jump to avoid getting grabbed. Run under him and up smash for a free kill

 

[Nayyr]

If you like Lucas and think he's fun, I would recommend just sticking with him. Link is hard to learn to play against, but after playing the matchup in 10 sets or so (what ended up happening to me) it's not so hard.

I just wish I had a Link friend to get some games against. Do you have any vods against link that you think show some good play? Pretty much all I've seen is pinkfresh vs lazarond and laz didn't seem to be using his projectiles very heavily

 

[Fortune]

I don't, unfortunately.

 

[PubstarJones]

How do you guys deal with Roy? I have a hard time doing anything that doesnt start with PKF, but even with that his range still catches me off guard. I also get edge guarded easily, despite my attempts to mix up with tether regrabs and magnet stalls.

 

[Nayyr]

How do you guys deal with Roy? I have a hard time doing anything that doesnt start with PKF, but even with that his range still catches me off guard. I also get edge guarded easily, despite my attempts to mix up with tether regrabs and magnet stalls.

I haven't played any Roys but I have the same problem with marth. Pkf feels like the only thing I can do safely unless he really messes up.

 

[Lukingordex]

I'm kinda late, but I'd like to share my thoughs about the Link Matchup.

I believe it's Lucas' worst Match up, his Nair beats' Lucas entire moveset except a well spaced Fair and his projectiles are really useful to shut most of Lucas' options down. Also, if Lucas gets grabbed he's screwed, and Link has a considerable amount of tricks to get the grab.

I played against a Link in a GF recently and to win, I had to play REALLY patiently, most of the time I was powershielding his projectiles trying to approach somehow.
If you want to use Lucas in this Matchup, I recommend that you be patient and don't just approach carelessly or else you're going to be destroyed. Wait for your opportunity and when you finally approach, give him all the damage you can and hope his stupid Nair doesn't break your combos and put you in a bad position.

 

[Facading]

How does one approach Mewtwo without getting rekt?

 

[Ya Boy GP]

How does one approach Mewtwo without getting rekt?

The thing about the Mewtwo matchup is that you shouldn't approach. Lucas usually approaches with pkf, right? Well in this matchup pkf isn't really as good as it is in other matchups. Due to the much bigger powershield that mewtwo has when compared to other characters, mewtwo could easily powershield pkf right back at you (lower level mewtwos who can't powershield could use confusion to send it back at you, but it's laggier so it's punishable if you know they'll do it). The only times you should be throwing out pkf is when you're far away enough so that if they powershield it, it won't come back far enough to hit you. The other time you should pkf is if you know they'll teleport somewhere and you're too far away to try to punish with something else (this could also lead to a conversion off of hitting him with pkf) If you're doing this, make sure you don't do it too late because nair beats out pkf and you could run into a nair trying to follow up and get a lot of percent/death because of it.

So what do you do instead you say? Dash dance, wait for Mewtwo to commit to a teleport and then punish accordingly off of it. You simply can't approach in this matchup since all of mewtwos moves outrange yours. (even his fair outranges your magnet) So you'll be spending a lot of your time just running back and forth. For this matchup I generally like larger stages so I can dash dance more easily.

Generally, to account for your dash dancing, mewtwo will throw out shadowballs. The thing about shadowballs that you must know is DON'T SHIELD THEM or magnet them. If you shield/magnet a shadowball, mewtwo will come in right behind it and put you into one of his various shield mixups or straight up punish you. Instead, you should avoid these shadowballs by either jumping over them or quickly going on a platform and going straight back down onto the floor. Also I should note that shielding mid-high level charged shadowballs isn't a bad option since Lucas has such low traction he'll be pushed too far back to be put into a mixup. Make sure you're on platforms as little as possible in the matchup because mewtwos tail when he's under you is scary.

You could find a good example of proper neutral is either Neon vs. Kaos or Pink Fresh vs. Emukiller. Hope this helped a bit.

 

[Lukingordex]

Does anyone here uses Fsmash to reflect projectiles?

It may sound weird, but it seems to be a viable option against some projectiles based characters.
I did it against a Samus that was giving me some trouble and it worked very well, it's a interesting gimmick imo

(also remember to up angle fsmash if you want to do this to have more reflection range)

 

[zFrost]

it's usually faster to just absorb projectiles, on things like links arrows and stuff tho yea i try it but not if i have a ou charged