Ness and Lucas aren't screwed now.

[Elemental Knight]

I wish everyone who is arguing that a person should just not ever get grabbed would leave the internet forever.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Wait, is there an escape window or not? Even if it's just 1 frame, it means really good players should not instantly lose to a grab. If I recall, the timing to do a short hop with Fox (among other characters) in SSBM is four frames, and I think it's obvious to everyone that it's completely within human reaction to do that 100% consistently. Maybe a really fast player could even do a 3 frame input consistently though I don't know if smash has any timing requirements that strict. Also, I'm going to make an assumption that's probably not true for a short hopping Fox but that shouldn't hurt the argument in general. All frames in which the input is possible are equally likely.

So let's take our one frame window which is probably beyond human reaction time to consistently hit. However, the player can pull a trick and pretend the window is about 4 frames centered around the real one frame window. Since I'm assuming that all frames are equally likely to be used in this window (which the player is always hitting), that means the player has a 25% chance of escaping the combo on each grab. If we contract it to 3 frames (which I believe is the limit of human ability), it's a 33% chance. With the 3 frame timing down, the player is more likely than not to escape after being grabbed twice with over an 80% chance of escaping after 4 grabs. It's still bad, but it's not nearly as bad as people are saying.

This assumes the window exists which isn't clear. The level 9 AI wasn't jump breaking Marth at 1/4 speed for me at all which might mean that, if executed perfectly, the window doesn't exist. Of course, the AI is also stupid so who knows? I don't have the right hardware, but this is actually really easy to test. Someone with a turbo controller would just need to set Ness up against that wall in Hyrule Temple (or a custom stage) with Marth and just leave the game on for a few hours. If the level 9 Ness is still being comboed, we would be reasonably sure there's either no escape window or that if there is the AI has no ability at all to take advantage of it. If he ever escaped (and probably killed you many times over), obviously the window exists.

I should also point out that it's really hard to mash fast enough with standard speed to prevent breakouts; if we're being realistic about human limits, we have to factor in finger fatigue in doing this combo. Even if you make the good move of remapping grab to a face button, you will probably still tucker out and leave escape windows after a few regrabs.

Further, the terrain can mess this up a lot. Slopes that are too extreme make it impossible. Yoshi's Island (brawl) is mostly flat enough to work (though it has at least one point along its surface from which Ness slides too far for Marth to regrab without taking a step forward), but a stage like Yoshi's Island (melee) or Distant Planet is pretty much completely safe. It actually seems fairly inconsistent as the slopes on Pirate Ship seem more apt to mess it up than the ones on Corneria (excluding the fin obviously). Marth can even keep it up going upward on the right slope of Green Hill Zone (though nowhere else on that stage). It cannot be done on ice. Frigate Orpeon flipping breaks it forcibly. Oddly, it seems independent of gravity (it still works in low gravity). I can confirm that brawl's physics engine is completely unrealistic as it does not work on the moving platform on Smashville (say no to relativity!). Obviously course obstacles interfere, and since Marth takes a step forward while doing this, running out of ground on which to continue can be an issue. The point of this paragraph is that this doesn't really damage Ness very much at all as a counterpick; he just has to bring the fight to a course that makes this unrealistic.

 

[TTT]

Comparing wobbling to the infinite on the psychic kids is irrelevant simply on the basis that in brawl getting a grab is 100000 times easier than in melee. Not only is grabbing easier, but to start a wobble you had to get a grab with nana in a specific position, adding even more difficulty to performing a wobble. Even with that people considered banning wobbling, and wobbling was still good. The infinite on the psychic kids is in a whole other league of cheap.

Please stop comparing the two it's already been taken care of in multiple threads that you can't. This quote also applies to DeDeDe's standing infinite.

^TRUTH^

 

[Blad01]

I just think that Release Grab should be banned...

Or maybe we can limit this at a certain percent (50% by example) :/

 

[Azuro]

(This is a repost of what I posted on the thread in the Lucas forum)

I think that this tactic should be banned.

Now before you start replying, listen to this. Why is stalling banned? As Sonic, I could attack my opponent enough to get a percentage lead, then jump under the stage and constantly neutral B over and over again until the time runs out and I win. Almost no other character can counter this (except ROB and a few others), so Sonic now has the advantage against almost every character in the game. But this is banned because, I assume, it makes the game less competitive. The game would be about who could score the first hit, and then running away until the time ran out. It would completely destroy whatever potential there was for Brawl to be competitive. This is also an enforceable ban. You see sonic constantly using his homing attack under a stage? Disqualification. It's that simple.

Now lets compare Sonic's stalling tactic to the infinite grab on Ness and Lucas. It destroys whatever competitive potential that Ness and Lucas. This tactic is so easy that pretty much anyone, when faced with a match against the mother boys, could pick Marth, constantly grab until Ness/Lucas is at a killable percent, and then fsmash. It would be an easy win for the marth player (who might not even main Marth) even though he may be the less skilled out of the two players. However, a ban on this tactic, like Sonic's stall, is easily enforceable. There just needs to be a rule that says "You cannot grab Ness and Lucas again immediately after they escape from a grab". This would ban the infinity aspect of the technique, but still keep its other less game-breaking properties such as attacking out of it. It would make it so that they were slightly worse than before this tactic was known, but at least they are playable.

I would like to say that I did not believe Wobbling should have been banned from melee. It didn't seem like a gamebreaking tactic that it was fessed up to be. In tournaments where it was allowed, the top 8 finishers were not all Ice Climbers. There were plenty of ways to avoid this: don't get grabbed, kill nana off, etc. But Brawl is a different game where grabbing is much more feasible, with dashing sheild grabs and less sheild stun. Ness and Lucas will eventually be grabbed and be infinited in a match.

Hmmm...

Before I felt that the inf grab really couldn't be banned. Now I read this...and I'm seeing it, now. But if anything, I think we should save that rule until everything with the inf grab is figured out. Right now, we don't even know exactly how everything works.

 

[Levitas]

Amazing Ampharos: There isn't even a one frame window to escape, the stages that are being used in competitive are almost all flat (with a few slight exceptions), Fatigue is an issue to the person mashing out far earlier than the person regrabbing (which should not even be close to considered - ever try the multishine infinite in melee?), and once again, there isn't a window frame to escape.

Lucas dittos will go as follows from now on if this isn't banned. Lucas 1 attempts a grab. If he succeeds, Lucas 1 will infinite Lucas 2 until 170% to ensure that the Dthrow will kill. If he fails, Lucas 2 will punish Lucas 1's missed grab with a grab, infinite Lucas 1 to 170%, and Dthrow for a kill.

First to 3 grabs wins. Of course, who would use lucas? I mean the guy sitting next to you picks him and you're like "OK, who do I want to beat him with? Marth? DK? Bowser? Pokemon Trainer? I don't play any of them at all, but really, I just need to get 3 grabs and I win"

Absolutely broken beyond anything we saw in melee by far. Someone please record a lucas ditto, that should be easily enough to change a few minds. Once someone sees that and realizes that it is the pinnacle of the metagame, it should be enough to warrant a new line of thought about this.

 

[Azuro]

I'm already envisioning that...I didn't even know Lucas was capable of regrabbing himself.

...That's pretty **** hideous...

 

[Ulevo]

NOTE: AGAINST NESS, THIS ONLY WORKS WITH THE FOLLOWING:

Marth, Squirtle, Charizard.

NOTE: AGAINST LUCAS, THIS ONLY WORKS WITH THE FOLLOWING:

Marth.

This DOES NOT work with Ivysaur, Bowser, DK, Wario, or Snake, like Nessbounder has stated.



I just tested this, and all it takes to get out of the ones that don't work is either DIing backwards, standard A combos, a simple spot dodge, or a combination of them. If you're relying on CPUs for your information, YOU WILL HAVE FALSE RESULTS.

That said, let's look at this is a reasonable manner. This works for essentially two characters on Ness: Marth, and PK Trainer, and only Marth can grab Lucas. So we have 3 characters, if you want to class Squirtle and Charizard seperately, able to infinitely grab 2, out of a cast of 39 characters total.

Don't you guys think this is being a little too over dramatic? If you happen to be in a tournament setting and are stuck with this match up due to counter pick, it means that you have to avoid getting grabbed; something most melee veterans learned (and will STILL have to learn) to avoid well due to Ice Climbers alone. Not only that, but this does not mean the loss of a match, merely the loss of a stock provided the opponent can perform this properly and actually grab you. Most pros also main more than one character, so if a Marth is an opponet, or a PK Trainer as well in Ness's case, simply switch to another character.

I'm sorry to break this to everyone, but this won't be banned. King Dedede is far worse than this.

 

[Calixto]

Wait, is this with the standard 'move away' escape from a grab, or the 'jump away' escape from the grab, or both?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm going to assume that this is in reference to the standing infinites. If so, that's good news, I guess...

...still wish this whole mess was never discovered. <_<

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I've talked about it with some friends, and we all like the idea of a soft ban. Not technically banned, but to have a huge taboo against doing it to infinite. Then the only people who'd do it would be noobs. And I'd pay to see some noob who uses it lose to a Ness or Lucas.

We'd learn more as players if we don't just mash Z as Marth all match anyway... It doesn't change the fact that Ness and Lucas players probably need a new main, or at least a very strong secondary for Marth and other bad matchups. But the same goes for anyone in this game.

 

[Ulevo]

Wait, is this with the standard 'move away' escape from a grab, or the 'jump away' escape from the grab, or both?

'Move away' escape from grab. Jumping away is not something the person being grabbed can replicate on their own, unless the opponent simply doesn't hit you while you're grabbed, so it's kind of irrelevant.

These tactics work for when you are released and slide out in the standing position.

 

[Shibby]

'Move away' escape from grab. Jumping away is not something the person being grabbed can replicate on their own, unless the opponent simply doesn't hit you while you're grabbed, so it's kind of irrelevant.

These tactics work for when you are released and slide out in the standing position.

I'm pretty sure you cannot get out ... because the opponent grabs you, attacks till it breaks (at this point Lucas and Ness have that extended lag animation), then repeats into another grab ...

 

[Ulevo]

I'm pretty sure you cannot get out ... because the opponent grabs you, attacks till it breaks (at this point Lucas and Ness have that extended lag animation), then repeats into another grab ...

I think you misunderstand what it was I was saying. I'm perfectly aware that these grabs work (see my thread in signature), and how they work. I just know that many of the ones Nessbounder stated work on Ness and Lucas actually don't.

 

[Shibby]

I think you misunderstand what it was I was saying. I'm perfectly aware that these grabs work (see my thread in signature), and how they work. I just know that many of the ones Nessbounder stated work on Ness and Lucas actually don't.

His tests were not exactly "stellar" lets say. But regardless this is not some little issue ...

For me, I bought a Wii to play this game. Feel in love with Lucas as a character, and devoted numerous hours to get him pretty good against the competition. As of now, my little sister can play me and learn how to beat me with what seems to be a two or three button rhythm of grab, attack, (move a little?), grab ...

 

[Yuna]

Of course using this to stall will be banned. Once Ness or Lucas reaches a certain %, you have to stop. Like how you had to stop wallshining and wobbling people at 999% in Melee. I personally think 999% is way too high and that the ceiling should be hit at 300%, but that's just me.

Stop using "But it can be used to stall!" as an argument since we managed just fine against wallshine-infinites and Wobbling in Melee. Grab release for stalling = Banned.

Grab release for damage = OK.
Want to argue for it to be banned? Be my guest, but don't be a hypocrite. You have to also champion for the ban of every single other infinite in Brawl as well.

 

[Levitas]

Ulevo, did you test Lucas's chaingrab on lucas/ness?

Yuna, there weren't any permanent walls in melee stages, so banning wall infinites was unnecessary.

 

[JiangWei23]

I'm a bit confused as to what appears to be happening. So the characters grab the PK Brats...then what?

(1) Grab -> Hithithithit -> PK Brats escape -> Repeat?

(2) Grab -> Tilt/smash -> Repeat?

(3) Chaingrab (Grab -> Throw -> Repeat)?

 

[Shibby]

Of course using this to stall will be banned. Once Ness or Lucas reaches a certain %, you have to stop. Like how you had to stop wallshining and wobbling people at 999% in Melee. I personally think 999% is way too high and that the ceiling should be hit at 300%, but that's just me.

Stop using "But it can be used to stall!" as an argument since we managed just fine against wallshine-infinites and Wobbling in Melee. Grab release for stalling = Banned.

Grab release for damage = OK.
Want to argue for it to be banned? Be my guest, but don't be a hypocrite. You have to also champion for the ban of every single other infinite in Brawl as well.

Alright well if thats the direction we are going in

It will be Official

Ness and Lucas are now lowest-tier competitive characters because a high percentage of the cast can grab-release them until death.

 

[Yuna]

Ulevo, did you test Lucas's chaingrab on lucas/ness?

Yuna, there weren't any permanent walls in melee stages, so banning wall infinites was unnecessary.

Yes there were. Plenty of tournaments allowed stages with permanent walls like Corneria, Princess Peach's Castle and more. I ban them, however, for a number of reasons whenever I host tournaments... doesn't mean they aren't still legal at some tourneys.

Also, the ICs needed no wall to Wobble-infinite you.

Foxs wallshine and IC's Wobbling for stalling purposes were banned in Melee but perfectly legal (depending on where and when) for comboing. The same logic applies here. Stop whining about stalling, it's not a legit reason. Find other arguments for banning this... and also, I will personally call "hypocrisy" on anyone crying out for this to be banned but who isn't also actively championing for the other infinites in the game to be banned (wall or no wall).

Alright well if thats the direction we are going in

It will be Official

Ness and Lucas are now lowest-tier competitive characters because a high percentage of the cast can grab-release them until death.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Only 3 characters can actually chaingrab Ness properly using Grab Release. On Lucas, only Marth can do it. Even Nessbounder's first estimate only went as far as 8 or so characters, which is hardly "a high percentage" since they don't even make up 1/4th of the cast.

 

[g-regulate]

(off topic) yuna touched my boob. on multiple occasions.

 

[Yuna]

(off topic) yuna touched my boob. on multiple occasions.

Well, you kept asking me to show you mine.

 

[g-regulate]

hey guy, all you had to do was ask rofl

 

[da K.I.D.]

and g-reg ***** me at arena 51. it was very painful and i bet he doesnt even remember it.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

I understand the stalling versus racking damage or part of a combo, but this seems as easy to do as reaching over and pulling out the other persons controller. No one is looking>.> <.< yoink Yay! my Ness broke out of your infinite grab woohoo! Good luck using this to counter at a tourney.

 

[Yuna]

I understand the stalling versus racking damage or part of a combo, but this seems as easy to do as reaching over and pulling out the other persons controller. No one is looking>.> <.< yoink Yay! my Ness broke out of your infinite grab woohoo! Good luck using this to counter at a tourney.

How easy something is to do is of no consequence to banning it or not. If it's broken, then it'll be banned. If it isn't, then it won't be.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Agreed, just wanted to let the community in on this amazing technique! Works every time.

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

Sigh.

Welcome to the developing meta-game of Brawl. More balanced? This game is becoming no different from meta-game Melee now.

Except for the very small fact that Melee requires much more skill.

Hopefully, someone will discover some kind of throw-stun-lag cancelling technique?

 

[thesage]

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Only 3 characters can actually chaingrab Ness properly using Grab Release. On Lucas, only Marth can do it. Even Nessbounder's first estimate only went as far as 8 or so characters, which is hardly "a high percentage" since they don't even make up 1/4th of the cast.

It's actually more than that Yuna.

Ness, Lucas, Bowser, Sonic, MK, Snake, DK, Fox, Marth, Sheik, Mk, PT, and Wario.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How many of those characters can Infinite Ness. How many can infinite Lucas (btw, Lucas get's infinited by less characters than Ness because he slides farther and forces most characters to dash grab).

For instance, Marth's one is infinite on Ness, but not infinite on Lucas (since he must dash grab). Sonic get's an infinite on neither character since he must also dash grab (though Ness gets grabbed more because he doesn't slide as far).

Do you just ban the infinite ones or do you ban them all?

 

[Tyr_03]

BAN. It's an idiotic and gamebreaking technique.

And for those of you comparing it to wobbling in Melee, wobbling could be avoided by killing Nana. The only way to avoid this is to simply never get grabbed against certain characters which if you know anything about how Brawl favors the defensive player you know is nearly impossible. Dedede's chaingrab is nowhere near as lethal as this either. Anyone with half a brain should be able to tell that this is a broken technique that should be banned.

 

[Yuna]

It's actually more than that Yuna.

Ness, Lucas, Bowser, Sonic, MK, Snake, DK, Fox, Marth, Sheik, Mk, PT, and Wario.

Apparently Nessbounder's originalk estimate was 13 characters out of 35, which would mean approximately 37% or so.

I present to you:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=167365

The percentage has dropped dramatically.

 

[Yuna]

BAN. It's an idiotic and gamebreaking technique.

And for those of you comparing it to wobbling in Melee, wobbling could be avoided by killing Nana. The only way to avoid this is to simply never get grabbed against certain characters which if you know anything about how Brawl favors the defensive player you know is nearly impossible. Dedede's chaingrab is nowhere near as lethal as this either. Anyone with half a brain should be able to tell that this is a broken technique that should be banned.

DeDeDe's chaingrab on certain characters without a wall. DeDeDe's chaingrab on pretty much everyone with a wall. Falco's chaingrab with a wall. Fox's shineinfinite with a wall. Jab-locking with a wall. Laser-locking with a wall.

Are you championing for all of these things to be banned?

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Tournaments you play to win, which involves sometimes picking a different character. I don't like it but the majority wins in this case, if it doesn't break the entire game or match's don't break down into who infinites first it's nigh impossible to ban.

 

[SmashChu]

Why not just ban chaingrabbing.

 

[Blad01]

DeDeDe's chaingrab on certain characters without a wall. DeDeDe's chaingrab on pretty much everyone with a wall. Falco's chaingrab with a wall. Fox's shineinfinite with a wall. Jab-locking with a wall. Laser-locking with a wall.

Are you championing for all of these things to be banned?

You found the reason to the banishment of stages with permanent walls.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Because it's a legitimate tactic?

Thats like banning combo's because hitstun prevents them from escaping easily.

 

[TheManaLord]

I hope over half the cast becomes unusable so a more suitable and proficient metagame evolves.

Games with big casts are broken, games with bad gameplay mechanics are bad. I told everyone Brawl would be bad and broken.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Games with big casts are broken, games with bad gameplay mechanics are bad. I told everyone Brawl would be bad and broken.

You and everyone else on that bandwagon xD I understand the mentality behind it but giving mean looks and lobbing disparaging remarks is not going to stop a train from running down the tracks.

 

[Zankoku]

You and everyone else on that bandwagon xD I understand the mentality behind it but giving mean looks and lobbing disparaging remarks is not going to stop a train from running down the tracks.

...and off a bridge.