Ness....."Reflector"

[Antexerxes]

If this has been brought up already I apologize for reposting it but I completely forgot this was a surprise tool for Ness. Basicly f+smash sends most, if not all, single projectiles back (I have yet to test all of them) at 2x, maybe 3x the speed.

I don't have video but an example is Young Link's arrow. When you hit an uncharged arrow, it does 4%.

If you hit a fully charged arrow, it does 24%.

Highest return I got was 58% from a 900% Lucario fully charged Aura Sphere but the lasting time doesn't reset when hit (Mario fireball, Samus charge shot, etc.) so a full stage Samus Charge Shot will dissipate before going all the way back.

@ Yink
I seen your Psi Magnet Guide and it's damn good work. If you or someone you know could test this for the community (as I don't have a partner to truly do it myself) it should be immensely appreciated, as I've seen many a Ness vids and such a tool is rarely used.

 

[Blade Knight]

If you reflect a Gordo into King Dedede with Ness' bat it deals 80+% damage and is a one hit KO on the good King.

 

[Antexerxes]

Yeah I've been testing here and there and it's surprising how much damage the return can be for some projectiles. The only down side is whatever angle you hit them from, they return in the opposite direction exactly. So its not always smart to hit a Dr Mario pill falling from the air

 

[Meccs]

Fsmash Luma Shot for a good laugh.

 

[Token523]

Just thought about how strong the reflector is today , while fighting a villager. Use it to bat back loyd, the bowling ball if they mess up,and my favorite the tree!

 

[Yink]

@ Wiisnake and I could probably do some testing, and I know he really wants to do it. I think the bat reflects at the same power as Brawl (wouldn't be surprised, since PSI Magnet absorbed by the same multiplier). However, that's pointless if we consider that this game is kind of odd sometimes.

We can test it out. I do believe Wiisnake is doing most of the general information though, so I'll just be helping out for actual testing purposes. He more than likely will write the guide itself (I think?)

And in general, @ Antexerxes , don't worry about it. We need to get the guide rolling, so really, you just are helping us with a nice reminder.

 

[Wiisnake]

@ Wiisnake and I could probably do some testing, and I know he really wants to do it. I think the bat reflects at the same power as Brawl (wouldn't be surprised, since PSI Magnet absorbed by the same multiplier). However, that's pointless if we consider that this game is kind of odd sometimes.

We can test it out. I do believe Wiisnake is doing most of the general information though, so I'll just be helping out for actual testing purposes. He more than likely will write the guide itself (I think?)

And in general, @ Antexerxes , don't worry about it. We need to get the guide rolling, so really, you just are helping us with a nice reminder.

I'll gladly write the guide. The reflect was greatly buffed and is great for punishing people using projectiles poorly, however what we don't know is what characters that are actually worth using it against. So far I need @ Yink to help me determine percents for three characters. I CAN tell you to USE THE BAT if you see a Villager player trying to recover by riding the side b. the reflect has the potential to gimp him then. @ Antexerxes you want to help?

 

[Stalkos]

LINK

46% to 388%. WAT.

 

[Antexerxes]

@ Wiisnake yeah I'm definitely willing to help with that testing.

 

[Yink]

LINK

46% to 388%. WAT.

I had to double take that. I actually laughed, then got nervous, then just stared and wondered why Ness seems so weird in this game.

 

[Eagleye893]

anyone free to compile a list later of percents and reflectable projectiles?

 

[Meccs]

Eagle I got you. Shoot me a PM.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

LINK

46% to 388%. WAT.

Yo this has gotta be some custom equipment shenanigans. We've seen Ness reflect Dedede's Gordo for only 80% with the insta kill.

 

[Eagleye893]

Eagle I got you. Shoot me a PM.

lol shoot. I was working xP That's why you don't wake up late and mess up timing of everything.

If anyone is awake or will be awake for a while, I can test moves and the reflection of such moves. Main things I'm looking for:

Initial Damage of Move
Bat Reflected Damage
Knockback? (will it kill; high, medium; low; insta-KO; negligible)
Projectile Speed? (Not sure if most projectiles have increased speed with the bat)
​

May take a while, but it'll give some useful info.

 

[Wiisnake]

I had to double take that. I actually laughed, then got nervous, then just stared and wondered why Ness seems so weird in this game.

I noticed that DDD hits the Gordo with a Fmash as well. so I'm thinking D3 couldn't reflect it back, but the damage increase from both the reflect and the smash contributed.

 

[Rakurai]

Dedede's Gordo just has some really wacky damage mechanics behind it.

Earlier, I tried hitting it with the bat as he deploying it. It simply stayed on its usual trajectory, but it hit me in the face for 54% damage and OHKO'd. I presume it's because only the reflector hitbox on the bat came into contact with it, but it didn't fly back in his face because he hadn't hit it to give it any horizontal velocity yet.

On a side note, I've noticed that the reflection range on Ness' bat is much larger then it was in previous games. It seems extend almost a whole body length past the shockwave that emits from the tip of his bat during the swing.

 

[Stalkos]

Yo this has gotta be some custom equipment shenanigans. We've seen Ness reflect Dedede's Gordo for only 80% with the insta kill.

Actually I tested yesterday. And it seems that the closer Ness is to Dedede when he relfects the Gordo, he higher is the damage input.
I manage to get Dedede from 0% to 28X% with one single Gordo reflected. I recorded this of course. I can try uploading if you guys want to see it.

I also tested with some other characters.
Samus and Lucario just get their projectiles reflected. I didn't noticed some spike in the damage or knockback, but the speed is basically doubled when the projectile is reflected.
Robin's Thoron is basically canceled, and if you are close enough, he takes like 4% and very little knockback.

 

[Eagleye893]

So Mecks and I got started on different reflect-able moves in a google doc, and most of the reflected moves have the damage doubled and very few have their speed change.

Here's a google doc with the current list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-xM_pv3ize1SROR7vrI51_I4TGic4V_TZ13PNVjntuQ/

not finished yet, b/c I've gotta do stuff.

 

[Rakurai]

So Mecks and I got started on different reflect-able moves in a google doc, and most of the reflected moves have the damage doubled and very few have their speed change.

Here's a google doc with the current list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-xM_pv3ize1SROR7vrI51_I4TGic4V_TZ13PNVjntuQ/

not finished yet, b/c I've gotta do stuff.

Falco's reflector is reflectable?

Mind blown.

 

[Meccs]

Only up close for some reason.

 

[MegaMarioMan9]

So Mecks and I got started on different reflect-able moves in a google doc, and most of the reflected moves have the damage doubled and very few have their speed change.

Here's a google doc with the current list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-xM_pv3ize1SROR7vrI51_I4TGic4V_TZ13PNVjntuQ/

not finished yet, b/c I've gotta do stuff.

Being a huge Ness fan myself, I could help you out with some of this stuff if you'd like. I have some time this weekend to test.

 

[Eagleye893]

I'm gonna be busy finishing up a project for one job and then working at a restaurant for the other. On top of that, I'm helping my parents put up their new siding. The only time I would have free is late at night (11PM CST onward).

 

[an1bal]

I'm gonna be busy finishing up a project for one job and then working at a restaurant for the other. On top of that, I'm helping my parents put up their new siding. The only time I would have free is late at night (11PM CST onward).

Its awesome you're doing this. Thanks!

 

[Eagleye893]

okay updated with the help of @ MegaMarioMan9 xD

ALSO, Found out something cool about reflectors:

A.) Any projectile that you reflect will move in the opposite direction or vector. This is different from previous games where the object would only horizontally reflect (eg. Aerial PK Fire used to go from down-left to down-right, but now it goes from down-left to up-right).

B.) (this is the big difference) The damage multiplier also affects the speed of most projectiles. I tested this with fox's reflector, using Megaman's fully charged FSmash as a damage scale and Dr. Mario's pills as an example for the speed.

Ness' bat reflected the Fully charged Megaman FSmash for 38-40% from 20% damage.
Fox's reflector reflected the Fully charged Megaman FSmash for 28-30% from 20%.

Ness' bat made the Dr. Mario pill go flying.
Fox's reflector made the Dr. Mario pill speed up, but not go flying on a huge arc.

I'm still not sure whether or not the speed is directly related to the damage multiplier (ie 2x damage goes to 2x speed of projectile), but the multiplier DEFINITELY affects the speed in some way.

Some projectiles don't have increased speed or damage, some only have increased damage. Trying to compile the list as much as possible.

Here it is again if you want it, though the link is 2 posts above:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-xM_pv3ize1SROR7vrI51_I4TGic4V_TZ13PNVjntuQ/

 

[The 0ne]

I find that reflecting Link's arrows is completely fruitless because of his Hylian Shield. *plink*
Also, Ness's bat no longer the worst reflector in the game? Aside from the fact that you can't start it in the air, of course.

 

[Eagleye893]

Anybody wanna help try and finish the google doc? I have some free time right now... basically the only real free time I get is late in the day when nobody's around.

 

[MegaMarioMan9]

Anybody wanna help try and finish the google doc? I have some free time right now... basically the only real free time I get is late in the day when nobody's around.

Yeah, sorry it's hard to find a time to do this. I'll try to find a time to continue this with you in the future. I've been unlocking a majority of the custom moves, so I have some of those to test when it's time too.

 

[Empulsion]

Question does the reflector multiplier effect change or increase speed or damage based on the length you charged the fsmash? Because it seems as long as you hit the projectile, the damage and speed is calculated by the projectile itself as opposed to the bat. But then the video with D3 getting owned might be because of how close you are or getting hit by the bat. So now I'm wondering. And no guinea pig to test it lol. Plus I'm not quite sure how to approach this as well..

 

[MegaMarioMan9]

Question does the reflector multiplier effect change or increase speed or damage based on the length you charged the fsmash? Because it seems as long as you hit the projectile, the damage and speed is calculated by the projectile itself as opposed to the bat. But then the video with D3 getting owned might be because of how close you are or getting hit by the bat. So now I'm wondering. And no guinea pig to test it lol. Plus I'm not quite sure how to approach this as well..

I'm pretty certain that the bat position itself doesn't change the speed and damage output but the projectile does. There are some projectiles that do more damage from close or far range, which explains why it doesn't always have the same damage output. Some also change speed while moving through the air, meaning if you hit it at a different time it will have a different speed than if you hit it with different timing. That's my explanation. Dang I love that bat tho.

 

[Empulsion]

Same man. I guess that makes sense. So if I am understanding this correctly. I wanna time the hit to be as close to my opponaut as possible. And moves like BJs Cannon I can sit and wait with the wind up until he is forced to fire.

 

[MegaMarioMan9]

Same man. I guess that makes sense. So if I am understanding this correctly. I wanna time the hit to be as close to my opponaut as possible. And moves like BJs Cannon I can sit and wait with the wind up until he is forced to fire.

Yup. Just keep in mind that there may be some projectiles that increase in strength the farther they are too. I don't actually know if there are any that act that way, but they might be there. My favorite though is when you hit Dedede with a Gordo instantly as he throws it. It's literally a OHKO. Wish I could find a video of it, but feel free to try it out yourself.

 

[deusy]

I like the idea of reflecting projectiles, but I can never seem to time it right. Is there some trick to it?

 

[PKBeam]

you just time it. if you really need to, charge the Fsmash in advance so the startup lag has less of an effect on your timing. but that's it, really.
if it suits you, you can run pivot Fsmash or walk back to get more distance but i don't really think that works better.

 

[Eagleye893]

Question does the reflector multiplier effect change or increase speed or damage based on the length you charged the fsmash? Because it seems as long as you hit the projectile, the damage and speed is calculated by the projectile itself as opposed to the bat.

Reflecting the projectile is no different for how long you charge the FSmash. It's a constant 2x speed or damage, depending on the projectile. Certain projectiles will only reverse control though, and in that case it's 1x damage or speed. MOST projectiles are increased damage and speed though.

But then the video with D3 getting owned might be because of how close you are or getting hit by the bat. So now I'm wondering. And no guinea pig to test it lol. Plus I'm not quite sure how to approach this as well..

The reason for this is that the Gordo doesn't become an actual projectile until his hammer launches it; essentially, his hammer is a "reflector" for the gordo. I haven't tested this for OTHER projectiles to see if he can actually reflect other projectiles than the gordo, but DDD regains control of the gordo if he hits it with a hammer.
EDIT: The reason for this is that Gordo changes control whenever a player hits it back at DDD with a hitbox. The gordo hammer is indeed a hitbox.
Ness can still hit the gordo before it leaves DDD's hammer, and over the course of a few frames, the damage multiplies several times.

Let's say that DDD's Gordo is tossed up into the air for 15 frames, the hammer hits it for 3 frames, and Ness' bat reflects for all of the frames that the hammer is hitting it (not sure this is exactly how it works though).

1st hammer frame: The gordo is re-directed toward Ness because DDD's hammer hits it toward us. Just after that, Ness' bat hitbox takes effect and reflects it back for ~25% x 2 = ~50%.

2nd hammer frame: Same as 1st hammer frame. ~50% x2 = ~100%

3nd hammer frame: Same as 1st hammer frame. ~100% x2 = ~200%

This goes for a total of ~200% from multiplying the damage by 8 times over the course of 3 frames. I'm not entirely sure how the percentage varies per hit (regarding move scaling) or per multiplier (for the scaling factor of the reflector), but this is how it seems to work. I want to test the following cases again for this move:

a.) the bat covers all the frames that the hammer is hitting Gordo.
b.) the bat covers the first 1 or 2 frames of the hammer hitting Gordo so that DDD regains control.
c.) the bat covers the last frame of the hammer hitting gordo.
d.) the bat hits the hammer directly after the hammer is done hitting gordo.

That will give insight as to how DDD's Gordo launch works.

EDIT2:
I made the doc edit-able by anyone. I saved off a copy for what I have just in case, but if anyone wants to take up the work of getting reflector data, you can put in stuff for the table. I'm so busy working, so my only free time is spent getting good at melee.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-xM_pv3ize1SROR7vrI51_I4TGic4V_TZ13PNVjntuQ/edit#gid=0