Ness Vision -- Live streams every Wednesday

[Double Helix]

Alright cool. I'm going to have to check it out. Are there other low tier heroes in your group? Low tiers are the best!

 

[The Mofo]

Nope, I'm the only one... KDJ plays Ness sometimes though, I've inspired him. It's pretty good.

 

[The Mofo]

I need to take a trip to Arizona with Vudujin so we can have a Low-Tier meetup with Axe, Taj, and VMan. That would be awesome.

 

[Double Helix]

That would be awesome. Low tier heroes for the win! Stop by southern Illinois for some Ness dittos. Maybe teach me a few things.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Hi, guys.

"I haven't done this for awhile, sounds fun"

Yeah I'm pretty much out of it. That new video from Fanime is me showing off my washed-up-ness. I'm getting back into it though! I'm going to EVO! EVO2013 will be my first big tournament since GENESIS (the first one).

Anyone else going to EVO?


EDIT: Mofooooo! Are you going to EVO? If you are taking a long trip all the way to AZ you might as well go to EVO too, right?^_^

 

[Double Helix]

If I could only go to EVO. I mean, I wouldn't compete most likely. I would learn so much by watching and talking to other people. Plus hotel friendlies would be my source of play. Plus watching KoF and SSFAE would be awesome. And Marvel! But that is good to hear that you are going to EVO. I thought you had left us for Brawl forever.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

If I could only go to EVO. I mean, I wouldn't compete most likely. I would learn so much by watching and talking to other people. Plus hotel friendlies would be my source of play. Plus watching KoF and SSFAE would be awesome. And Marvel! But that is good to hear that you are going to EVO. I thought you had left us for Brawl forever.

I quit playing Brawl pretty much immediately after Genesis 1. At that point I was playing Brawl+ and Brawl-, but I got tired of those too. I pretty much play Melee whenever i can Smash, but that's not too often(getting more though).

Surprisingly, I haven't played Project M yet.

 

[Double Helix]

I quit playing Brawl pretty much immediately after Genesis 1. At that point I was playing Brawl+ and Brawl-, but I got tired of those too. I pretty much play Melee whenever i can Smash, but that's not too often(getting more though).

Surprisingly, I haven't played Project M yet.

Yeah, I just got into the community last summer. But school Johns fly everywhere when it comes to being able to play. I love Melee though and Ness is just too much fun to put down.

I don't know how I feel about Project M. While it is a great concept, I feel like Smash in general is defined by the huge gap between tiers that other fighting games just don't have. Honestly, I am not sure if a balanced cast would help the game. But Project M is done well at least.

Are you going to be in any other big tournaments?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

So I went back and read more posts. Sorry to hear you wont be making it to EVO, Mofo.

He also goes for some very ballsy and sometimes downright stupidly risky maneuvers.

^__^ I have a personal agenda to fulfill. Except for one person, every person I have ever played(as Ness) against in Melee I have hit with PKT2. Sometimes because I read them very well and sometimes because there was some detail I was aware of that they were not and sometimes simply because they weren't familiar enough with Ness' upB. Regarding that one person I failed to hit: I regret failing there, but I am at peace with it(although I would love a chance to try again).

Regarding "some details I was aware of that they were not": Ya know its amazing what you can do with PK Thunder in some places. Pokemon Stadium is an amusement park; the windmill and grass platforms are just loads of fun^_^. Getting a person to shield on the windmill and then hitting them at just the moment when the steepness of the windmill would force their shield to drop is golden. Did you know that most players don't know when or how regularly Wispy Woods(on DL64) blows wind? I have caught a good number of people in PKT2 because I used upB when the I knew the wind was going to move me around. Honorable mentions also to the cloud and shy aways on Yoshi's Story and everything that occurs on Corneria(RIP)

Sorry for rambling, I've just been away so long and sometimes I get very nostalgic about Melee the Melee community. Oh and that "personal agenda" of mine definitely does not coincide with winning, but it has definitely made my PKT ability advance much faster that normal over the years.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Probably nothing big until EVO, but I just recently got Saturdays off work, so I might go to some regional norcal events.

 

[The Mofo]

Simna, great to see you getting active again. I've actually been toying with some PKT jank. If you're right at an edge, here's a couple things:

1. Hit yourself into the ground, and edge guard with getup attack. It's got a lot of range and he's invincible while he's doing it:

2. Hit yourself at a certain angle and it sends you downwards off the stage. Could be fun as a last stock kill.

 

[Double Helix]

Surprisingly...I discovered that edgeguard against a buddy of mine. It was so funny. Cuz then he recovered high and I hit him with PKT2. But the second one...x.x

I really don't think someone at my level should be doing something like that. I am just not technically consistent enough to be doing something like that, though once I get there I will do that simply because it is hilarious.

The biggest use of PKT I have seen is instead of U-air, use PKT just because it is different. Also sometimes you don't trade when they try to read it.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

2. Hit yourself at a certain angle and it sends you downwards off the stage. Could be fun as a last stock kill.

Yes! EDIT: oh its funny I've gone for these with the intention of a suicide kill, but traded with opponent and survived because of it. I still havent convinced myself to try using it unless I intend to suicide though.^_^
EDIT AGAIN: but yeah this is a cool thing and it works on platforms too where you wont kill yourself doing it(hehehe who am I kidding? of course you can kill yourself doing it)



Speaking PKT, Double Helix, I dont know where you are in your Ness ability right now, but most of the time you will hear people say that as Ness you should not spend too much time learning PKT stuff beyond recovery and instead spend time on Ness' staples...and I would tend to agree, but sometimes it bothers me when I see videos of generally well-played Nesses from smart players and they don't use the PKT projectile. If the enemy is way above you(and especially if there are platforms between you them) you can get good damage and increase their airtime with PKT and against many characters its not even risky. I watched this video some weeks ago and I particularly remember so many easy upB opportunities on that first match in battlefield.

 

[Double Helix]

That is true. A problem I have seen with using PKT as a projectile when they are too high above you though. An air-dodge and then they fall through the platform. And being punished as Ness sucks already. But maybe I am not that great. It is awesome edge-guarding though. I'm not sure why people would be against learning to use it for that. In any case, I am just not fast consistently. That is where I am at. Getting my speed up.

One more thing I am doing is exploring U-tilt a bit. The move seems so good. Any thoughts from the Veterans?

I really don't like how much Dogy hates on Ness x.x I hate watching this match for that reason lol.

 

[The Mofo]

Dogy usually has very stark opinions on things. Though, I love when people talk about how bad Ness is, it's good propaganda.

For air-dodgers, try anticipating and curving around. It's one of those things that you have to do a lot to practice, and before you get good at it, you're going to get punished a lot.

U-tilt goes through Fox/Falco's dair and nair. If you can hit a few of those, it can help claim your space and force them to not rush you down.

 

[Double Helix]

Thanks man. Should I try to learn the Sheik match-up, or should I just get a different character? Unfortunately, I would be that stubborn guy to learn the match-up. Lose for hours on end. Then maybe make the match-up more like...30-70.

It is kinda dumb, but I do love Ness too much.

 

[The Mofo]

At Apex 2012 I went Ness vs a Samus in Pools. He beat me, but it was close. I told him I was going FD, so he switched to Sheik. I said 'Really man? Really?', then I switched to Fox and 4-stocked him LOL.

If that was today, I'd probably stay Ness though, just because. The Sheik matchup is hard, but rewarding to learn. You can get some pretty sick combos on Sheik. While you do need to 'pay your dues' and lose a lot to sheik as you learn the MU, I'd say that if you don't technically have the tools, it is virtually impossible. If I were you, I'd maybe wait until you become more technically proficient. Otherwise, you just don't have options. Your call though.

 

[The Mofo]

Btw, I'm currently 3-0 in tournament vs. HectoHertz (Jesse), a Sheik player from RI.

 

[Double Helix]

Good **** Mofo. I feel that way about most MUs actually. Going in against a mediocre Fox player would be suicide with my Ness probably. I don't really know how good I am because I haven't played people in forever. I will figure it out I hope.

 

[The Mofo]

In case you missed it, you can watch me playing HectoHertz here:

http://www.twitch.tv/tichinde925/b/404003634

The tournament set starts at 2:32:12.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Dogy usually has very stark opinions on things. Though, I love when people talk about how bad Ness is, it's good propaganda.

For air-dodgers, try anticipating and curving around. It's one of those things that you have to do a lot to practice, and before you get good at it, you're going to get punished a lot.

U-tilt goes through Fox/Falco's dair and nair. If you can hit a few of those, it can help claim your space and force them to not rush you down.

I already clicked like on this post, but I gotta say I pretty much agree with everything here. I especially like using utilt against fast/rushdown characters while I am off camera. Lots of things are nice off camera.

People start to expect you to throw stuff out off camera and then they get the camera fear^_^. A good reason for me to like Dreamland....if you get someone way up in the air on Dreamland it will stretch the camera a lot...stand on a platform and use PKT and turn it around below you/under the platform(off camera) and watch them get the fear^_^.

 

[Double Helix]

Yes. Off camera shenanigans barely happen to me. They are fun. Like Bairing from off the top after trading an U-air with some move of theirs.

I am having trouble figuring out off-stage options as Ness other than just jumping out there and Nairing then coming back. Are there any other options? (Simna I am NOT talking about simply running off and sweet-spotting the ledge with PKT2 in a race to grab the ledge. Screw that. It looks cool though.)

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Yes. Off camera shenanigans barely happen to me. They are fun. Like Bairing from off the top after trading an U-air with some move of theirs.

I am having trouble figuring out off-stage options as Ness other than just jumping out there and Nairing then coming back. Are there any other options? (Simna I am NOT talking about simply running off and sweet-spotting the ledge with PKT2 in a race to grab the ledge. Screw that. It looks cool though.)

Hey! It only works if you do it slow enough that the opponent thinks they might get there first. lol

If you wanna be more dangerous with your offstage stuff and you can predict your opponent's recovery well then you can go out further and plan to trade hits with your opponent's recovery and use that hit on yourself to help you get back. That's kind of a general description for many possible events(jump out and aerial, then double jump and follow them and time your next aerial so it trades with their recovery, then upB). Sorry if that wasnt what you were looking for....I tend to find the riskier parts of a match the more fun parts.

You can use pretty much any aerials off stage. [tangent]One time I did something really stupid(just once? that's a lie) where I jumped off the stage and used pk fire on a fox below the stage(far too low to call safe) but for some reason the fox decided to use his downB and the fire hit me and cancelled my lag and letting me survive.[/tangent] Also, remember its always necessary for you to go off of the stage.

 

[Double Helix]

Ok. So I can use any aerial off the stage. I understand that. I finally got good at getting the reverse Bair on purpose. I have been working on the retreating Fair and approaching Bair. Normally when I DJC I use the A button for an aerial, but with these it seems strictly better to use the C-stick. But the biggest problem I have is the height. I am having trouble doing quick DJC's and fast falling when I try to do these monsterous tasks.

Essentially, I get the height I want when I use the A button but lose the direction. When I use the C-stick I get the direction but do the move far higher than I want. Besides...if I can do it low, I can do it high, because I just lower the speed of the DJC, if I DJC at all. Seems like all of my problems would be solved with an A-stick.

Any tips for getting faster/better?

 

[The Mofo]

if you're facing right, trying to do forward moving bairs to the right: hold right, jump, double jump, hit analog left and A in sort of a flicking motion, fast fall at the right time. It's optimal to bring your analog stick back to the right direction for added momentum, however the initial impulse of just hitting your double jump while holding right will carry you forward well enough to make it useful. Flicking will make it so that while you're not adding to your forward momentum, you're not detracting much from it either, and it also sets you up nicely for the fastfall.

I would not recommend using the C-stick for this, it's too far away from the jump button as you've already figured out.

As for attacking off the stage, fair is a good choice, as it's his highest priority air move. If you full jump fair and it connects, on certain characters at certain percents you can combo into either another fair or a nair. If it doesn't kill, you run the risk of them eating your PK Thunder as you recover, and if they do, they may save themselves with it as well. You have to make a hard decision to either not recover and both lose a stock, or recover and risk losing a stock and saving your opponent.

This is exactly the situation where a reverse angle of PKT is essential... coming soon in the PKT aiming guide.

 

[The Mofo]

I had to make this hard decision vs. Tai in this match, skip to 0:26:35.

http://www.twitch.tv/tichinde925/b/404056754

After the last nair, I knew that if I recovered with up-B, he would be able to up-b into it, killing me and saving himself. I couldn't do a reverse up-B, because the thunder would have hit the stage. Another consideration was that I was at 137%, and I was killing him at under 100%, the decision of trading stocks instead of potentially saving him outweighed. I knew the air dodge wasn't going to save me, but I tried anyway because why not.

In hindsight, things I could have done better here are fall into him and hope he hits me, air dodging up and hope he hits me, or even possibly stalling slightly with down-B and hoping he either hits me or isn't in danger of eating my thunder anymore after the cooldown.

 

[Kimimaru]

From the looks of it a reverse Up + B would've worked, but he might've been able to hit it. In that situation I think PSI Magnet stalling would be the best option until you can safely recover.

 

[The Mofo]

Being in that situation a lot, it would have been very unlikely for him to not hit it if I had started the up-b at any point after that nair. Stalling with PSI Magnet isn't that great, if you've ever tried it. It's maybe good used once and not held. Used more than that and it's suicide, at that height at least. However, I think that was a situation where it would have been useful. I'll have to try it, I've never actually done that in a real match yet.

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah...PSI magnet is awful lol. But thanks dude. I kinda started to figure it out. But I wanted to make sure since it really is that tough to do. I could use the C-stick with the heel of my hand but it isn't very consistent. I will just get my speed up. Funny stop to illusion recovery that spacies use is to PK fire as they are coming back. PK fire is a funny way to stay safe and oddly I use it more off-stage than on.

 

[The Mofo]

Went to Zenith this weekend. I got third seed in pools, behind HungryBox and MilkMan (Fox). 2-0'd everybody else.

Bracket, played Knut first round on the VGBootcamp stream. You can watch the set here:

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/411671730

Skip to 0:56:03. I also have a short interview with MattDotZeb after the match, and I commentate the next match Qerb (Game&Watch) vs. Spawn (Sheik) (great matches, would recommend).

I went on to play HungryBox, and then got knocked out of the tournament by a Fox player named Cody. I was kind of upset at myself for that, I really should not have lost to him. I ended up getting 33rd, which is alright I guess considering it's a national tournament. I'll try to do better this weekend at No Johns, and then GUTS II the weekend after that.

 

[Double Helix]

So Guts is the same weekend as Impulse? I'm not sure which I should watch.

Good **** at Zenith Mofo. Nice Ness with Hbox dittos btw.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Went to Zenith this weekend. I got third seed in pools, behind HungryBox and MilkMan (Fox). 2-0'd everybody else.

Bracket, played Knut first round on the VGBootcamp stream. You can watch the set here:

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/411671730

Skip to 0:56:03. I also have a short interview with MattDotZeb after the match, and I commentate the next match Qerb (Game&Watch) vs. Spawn (Sheik) (great matches, would recommend).

I went on to play HungryBox, and then got knocked out of the tournament by a Fox player named Cody. I was kind of upset at myself for that, I really should not have lost to him. I ended up getting 33rd, which is alright I guess considering it's a national tournament. I'll try to do better this weekend at No Johns, and then GUTS II the weekend after that.

Dang

Did you Ness ditto hbox?

 

[The Mofo]

Dang

Did you Ness ditto hbox?

Yeah I did, he played me in pools with Ness and I got 2-0'd, and then the next day at the very end of the tournament we played an exhibition set on stream and I 2-1'd him. I had a lot of fun playing him in that last set, a lot of jank goes down. Here's the link:

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/411735286

Skip to 4:42:23. The first 30 seconds or so we're just warming up.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Those were fun. That psi magnet part was funny....mostly because I think it was 1 of only 2 times hbox pressed the B button when he wasnt recovering.

EDIT: Actually those matches are helping me get hyped more for EVO. I hope there is room there for friendlies....I mean....there will be, but I hope there is room enough for everyone.

 

[The Mofo]

Here's my set vs Knut on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz_wMI2NXcs

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Those commentators...hahahaha pk flash vs. samus is up there in the top worst ness ideas with what one of the commentators said on hboxNess vs. ArmadaYLink: They brought up Ness using his fsmash to reflect Ylink's projectiles....hahahahah

Oh hey Mofo.....for your jab resets after dair have you tried using standing A(jab 1)? I find that the hitbox on it is better suited for jab resets. The only time I use dair is if I plan to hit more than once.

 

[The Mofo]

I'm trying to turn around before I do the d-tilts, and I usually can do it but it just wasn't happening.

 

[The Mofo]

Although I do agree, Ness' neutral jab has a small hitbox on his back foot which allows for it to catch on both sides.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I was just thinking of something, but I dont know if the frames would allow it: Jab reset into pk fire. I always jab reset into various things but never pk fire. Have you tried this, Mofo? I think I'm gonna try it out and see what I can get out of it.

Damn now I'm imagining great things that will probably not work out as I would like them to: jab reset(via jab) to pk fire to dair to jab reset(via pk fire) to pk fire to etc. I dont get enough chances to try this stuff out. Oh well....I'll get to it when I can.

 

[Double Helix]

Jab reset so good. I have tried this once before but hadn't really gotten around to see if the spacing works. Can you jab reset (either jab or dtilt) to YYG? I'd imagine with either one you would have to wavedash back, but if you don't have to do a short wavedash, I would imagine you could hit with the weak hit. Then again, I have never really tried many options from the weak hit YYG, so I would have to see what that could do for me.

I am obviously turning into Simna, thinking of stupid (but awesome when pulled off) stuff that Ness can do. It is all for the showboating! I really do like seeing people's reaction to some stuff Ness can do. Low-tier heroes have the most fun for sure.