Ness vs Zelda. Advantage or disadvantage

[Levitas]

well, we know what Yuna's gonna say. Taking bets on how many times/how angrily he'll say it. Anyone in?

 

[Nestec]

Um, um, I'll guess SUPERMACHOYUNA-ANGRY!!!

( Actually, I'm not really sure what we're predicting him to say. XD )

EDIT: w000T w000T I am a Smash Journeyman!! Post 100!!

 

[Cazcom]

Ok, so let's say, for the sake of killing a tired point that has already been agreed upon, that Ness's bair is easy to sweetspot than Zelda's.

Tell me, what else is carrying Ness into the advantage area?

The things that give ness the advantage over Zelda
___________

As has been stated, Ness's Bair beats Zelda's Fair/Bair. Not saying Zelda doesn't have a great Lightning Kick, because she does. It's something I've been on the receiving end of more than once. However, Ness's Bair beats out Zelda's Lightning Kick the majority of the time.

Zelda's UpAir is very predictible, so unless Yuna (or any other Zelda players who would like to discuss this) would explain to me a use for this, I'm going to put it in the same category as PK Flash (fancy, but only good for killing noobs)

Zelda's Dair. The moves this would be going against are Ness's UpTilt or UpAir : Both of which have quicker start-up times than Zelda's Dair.

Zelda's Nair : My training partner isn't that great with the Nair, so I'm not sure how well it works at the highest levels. I can usually beat it with my fair/nair, but I don't feel confident enough to say anyone has a clear advantage in the scenarios this move arises in.

Zelda's F-Smash and Up-Smash : These are some of Zelda's (IMHO) best damage building moves, but they are both DI'able by Ness until 60%+, drastically limiting the damage from those moves, and eliminating knockback. DI'ing also makes them easily punishable.

Zelda's D-smash: Really good move. I've watched my partner make "rockets" out of characters, as he calls it. But ness's advantage against this move comes with his long grab range. Ness can out-grab a zelda D-Smash, limiting the use of this move to a power-shield follow up.

Zelda's D-tilt : DI'able, and it usually leads into a F-smash, which is also DI'able

Zelda's Up-tilt : This is the move zelda beats ness with. Zelda's UpTilt can connect with a ness standing next to her, and it also beats any Dair ness may try.

Zelda's F-tilt : Don't know enough about this to really describe how this move stacks up against nes.

Zelda's Dash attack : This is an even match up in my opinion, in comparison to Ness's Dash attack. Ness is less likely to hit than zelda, unless the ness times only the 3rd hit, but I would give zelda a slight advantage in this category.

Nayru's Love : The end-lag after this move makes it very easy to do a quick circle with PKT and get the hit anyway.

Din's Fire : FEED ME... It tastes soo good. Not to mention, PSI Magnet Pretty much eliminates zelda's edge-guarding game

FW : start up lag is slow. This is very easy for Ness to Punish. Dair will beat Zelda if she tries it too close to the stage. And it is very easy to PKT2 he if she wants to land on the stage. The start-up lag makes it easy to predict where Zelda will go, and re-act accordingly (edge-guarding if need be)


Also, Ness is pretty darn good at getting people in the air. When Zelda is in the air, she is Ness's play thing. If I had any say on this, that alone gives Ness a GREAT ADVANTAGE over Zelda. I've easily racked up 70-80 damage by juggling zeldas.

In my opinion, there is no reason that ness shouldn't be at a huge advantage here. Whatever the two-move comparison is, ness comes up with the advantage. and if he doesn't, he can DI out of the move.
______________________________________

Yuna, I'd love to hear what you have to say about this. I'd also love to hear your move by move breakdown if you feel comfortable enough to do so.

Like I said, I base my argument on my experience. I play Ness. My doubles partner plays Zelda. We go to tourneys in washington, and place decently. He is also my training partner, so I play at least 2 dozen matches against Zelda a day.

I hope this doesn't come off as arrogant, it is not my intention. <3 brawl community.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The things that give ness the advantage over Zelda
___________

As has been stated, Ness's Bair beats Zelda's Fair/Bair. Not saying Zelda doesn't have a great Lightning Kick, because she does. It's something I've been on the receiving end of more than once. However, Ness's Bair beats out Zelda's Lightning Kick the majority of the time.

but zelda's kick has way more killing power... but yes... ness's air game wins.

Zelda's UpAir is very predictible, so unless Yuna (or any other Zelda players who would like to discuss this) would explain to me a use for this, I'm going to put it in the same category as PK Flash (fancy, but only good for killing noobs)

COMPLETELY outprioritizes and outranges ness's dair and has just about equal startup lag. lus you can punish poorly timed airdodges.

Zelda's Dair. The moves this would be going against are Ness's UpTilt or UpAir : Both of which have quicker start-up times than Zelda's Dair.

but not... she'll use this to KO or to reject ness's head... not to trade hits.

Zelda's Nair : My training partner isn't that great with the Nair, so I'm not sure how well it works at the highest levels. I can usually beat it with my fair/nair, but I don't feel confident enough to say anyone has a clear advantage in the scenarios this move arises in.

you normally have to combo into a nar in my experience.

Zelda's F-Smash and Up-Smash : These are some of Zelda's (IMHO) best damage building moves, but they are both DI'able by Ness until 60%+, drastically limiting the damage from those moves, and eliminating knockback. DI'ing also makes them easily punishable.

if only they were always so easy to DI out of <_<

Zelda's D-smash: Really good move. I've watched my partner make "rockets" out of characters, as he calls it. But ness's advantage against this move comes with his long grab range. Ness can out-grab a zelda D-Smash, limiting the use of this move to a power-shield follow up.

I lawled a little here... honestly Zelda's Dsmash is a great move... Ness does NOT legitimately have a counter for it if it's being used right.. and Zelda can use it to counter lots of nesses grab attempts.

Zelda's D-tilt : DI'able, and it usually leads into a F-smash, which is also DI'able

once again.. lawl. Seriously.. unless Zelda gets REALLY unlucky, you'll trip before you can DI out and she can cmbo into Fsamsh to build damage (which you might not escape OMGzzz) OR dsmash to KO... (DI out of that please.)

Zelda's Up-tilt : This is the move zelda beats ness with. Zelda's UpTilt can connect with a ness standing next to her, and it also beats any Dair ness may try.

wickid priority and ridic killing power... it's just slow... only bad thing

Zelda's F-tilt : Don't know enough about this to really describe how this move stacks up against nes.

Comboes into nair or Usmash at low damages, at high damages, a possible KO move.

Zelda's Dash attack : This is an even match up in my opinion, in comparison to Ness's Dash attack. Ness is less likely to hit than zelda, unless the ness times only the 3rd hit, but I would give zelda a slight advantage in this category.

the two likely won't dash attack each other simultaneously gotta look at how they perform vs others defensive games... I'd say ness's wins... it's MUY disjointed and pops Zelda airborne.

Nayru's Love : The end-lag after this move makes it very easy to do a quick circle with PKT and get the hit anyway.

Nayru's is god in this matchup. KILLS ness's grab game and pk fire pressure.

Din's Fire : FEED ME... It tastes soo good. Not to mention, PSI Magnet Pretty much eliminates zelda's edge-guarding game

this is just ignorant. While greatly diminishing its usability, Din;s fire still shows up in the match and, OMG it doesn;t feed ness.

FW : start up lag is slow. This is very easy for Ness to Punish. Dair will beat Zelda if she tries it too close to the stage. And it is very easy to PKT2 he if she wants to land on the stage. The start-up lag makes it easy to predict where Zelda will go, and re-act accordingly (edge-guarding if need be)

good for getting inside ness's PKT when he's trying to hit you with it... FREE ATTACK

Also, Ness is pretty darn good at getting people in the air. When Zelda is in the air, she is Ness's play thing. If I had any say on this, that alone gives Ness a GREAT ADVANTAGE over Zelda. I've easily racked up 70-80 damage by juggling zeldas.

bad zeldas.... no way is she a play thing.. disadvantaged maybe... but ness is not this kind of god.

In my opinion, there is no reason that ness shouldn't be at a huge advantage here. Whatever the two-move comparison is, ness comes up with the advantage. and if he doesn't, he can DI out of the move.

Except the fact that Zelda has the undisputed advantage in her gorund game and KO power... yeah... fanboyism at it's finest. One of my best sparring partners is a ness... absolute even matchup. he just... has such a hard time killing her. so may grabs get dissed by Dsmash or Nayru's. can't effectively edgeguard her.
______________________________________

Yuna, I'd love to hear what you have to say about this. I'd also love to hear your move by move breakdown if you feel comfortable enough to do so.

Like I said, I base my argument on my experience. I play Ness. My doubles partner plays Zelda. We go to tourneys in washington, and place decently. He is also my training partner, so I play at least 2 dozen matches against Zelda a day.

I hope this doesn't come off as arrogant, it is not my intention. <3 brawl community.

it was just a VERY poor way to compare sir.

 

[Yuna]

As has been stated, Ness's Bair beats Zelda's Fair/Bair. Not saying Zelda doesn't have a great Lightning Kick, because she does. It's something I've been on the receiving end of more than once. However, Ness's Bair beats out Zelda's Lightning Kick the majority of the time.

I'm sorry, what?
Zelda's Fair and Bair are faster and have more range and priority, unless I'm mistaken. Ness' Bair is easier to sweetspot.

Zelda's UpAir is very predictible, so unless Yuna (or any other Zelda players who would like to discuss this) would explain to me a use for this, I'm going to put it in the same category as PK Flash (fancy, but only good for killing noobs)

Uair is nowhere near as slow and predictable as PK Flash. It's also used to punish mistimed airdodges. And when it does hit, it kills you at 80%. But, yeah, slow and predictable.

Zelda's Dair. The moves this would be going against are Ness's UpTilt or UpAir : Both of which have quicker start-up times than Zelda's Dair.

Who the hell aproaches with Dair, anyway? You use it as an edgeguard.

Zelda's Nair : My training partner isn't that great with the Nair, so I'm not sure how well it works at the highest levels. I can usually beat it with my fair/nair, but I don't feel confident enough to say anyone has a clear advantage in the scenarios this move arises in.

Nair has limited range. But it can be auto-canceled.

Zelda's F-Smash and Up-Smash : These are some of Zelda's (IMHO) best damage building moves, but they are both DI'able by Ness until 60%+, drastically limiting the damage from those moves, and eliminating knockback. DI'ing also makes them easily punishable.

No it doesn't.

Zelda's D-smash: Really good move. I've watched my partner make "rockets" out of characters, as he calls it. But ness's advantage against this move comes with his long grab range. Ness can out-grab a zelda D-Smash, limiting the use of this move to a power-shield follow up.

"I can shieldgrab this!"

Yeah, well, Zelda can shieldgrab each of Ness' smashes, some even if they're spaced since he just lags so much after then.

Zelda's D-tilt : DI'able, and it usually leads into a F-smash, which is also DI'able

Or a Dsmash... or an F-tilt... or yet another D-tilt...

Zelda's F-tilt : Don't know enough about this to really describe how this move stacks up against nes.

Fast, good priority, OK KO-power, range.

Nayru's Love : The end-lag after this move makes it very easy to do a quick circle with PKT and get the hit anyway.

Who uses this against PKT?

Din's Fire : FEED ME... It tastes soo good. Not to mention, PSI Magnet Pretty much eliminates zelda's edge-guarding game

Also refuted.

FW : start up lag is slow. This is very easy for Ness to Punish. Dair will beat Zelda if she tries it too close to the stage. And it is very easy to PKT2 he if she wants to land on the stage. The start-up lag makes it easy to predict where Zelda will go, and re-act accordingly (edge-guarding if need be)

Most Zeldas don't use this as an attack.

Also, Ness is pretty darn good at getting people in the air. When Zelda is in the air, she is Ness's play thing. If I had any say on this, that alone gives Ness a GREAT ADVANTAGE over Zelda. I've easily racked up 70-80 damage by juggling zeldas.

1) So is many other people.
2) He's so good, why isn't he Top Tier as being able to combo is one **** good thing in this game.
3) Zelda's Fair and Bair outranges and outprioritizes Ness.
4) You've comboed people from 0-70/80%? Yah, try it against me.

In my opinion, there is no reason that ness shouldn't be at a huge advantage here. Whatever the two-move comparison is, ness comes up with the advantage. and if he doesn't, he can DI out of the move.

Even if you have less moves that are usable in the matchup, it doesn't mean you win it if the moves that can be used gainst you are just that much better than the moves you can use against them.

Like I said, I base my argument on my experience. I play Ness. My doubles partner plays Zelda. We go to tourneys in washington, and place decently. He is also my training partner, so I play at least 2 dozen matches against Zelda a day.

If your doubles partner regularly:
* Gets "comboed" from 0-70-80%
* Uses Din's Fire in such a fashion it's easily predicted and PSI Magneted (or not at all due to fear of this)
* Doesn't D-tilt into Dsmash
* Tries to Nayru's Love PKT all the time
* Approaches with Dair

Well... hmmm...

As for who can rack up damage the better:
Ness can combo (and "combo") better (but, hey, so can most people compared to Snake), but Zelda's move inflict more damage (generally).

 

[Brinzy]

The above two posts take care of what I was going to say in general to you. (Oh, and PK Flash isn't useless. I hit often and even kill with that, even against skilled players.)

However, I'm still not convinced that it's an advantage in Ness's favor. I'll argue one point for now.

When it comes to gimping, Zelda > Ness. Zelda can just warp past Ness if he decides to go out for an aerial. At worst, she'll land on the stage and be counterattacked if the Ness stays on the stage... or, Ness will take the edge and Zelda will try to sweetspot it when it's too late. The third way to punish Zelda is to hit before she warps, but that's not going to happen too often. PK Thunder doesn't gimp easily; as I stated before, it usually hits the opponent towards the stage, and tailwhipping + the head does decent damage for a projectile, but it doesn't kill. Tailwhipping the ledge might prevent her from grabbing, but it doesn't prevent her from warping again and just sweetspotting the ledge anyway. I've hit many opponents with PK Flash, but it's very situational and it takes precise timing to attempt to detonate it when you won't be punished for it. PK Fire -> spike might work, but again, that's assuming the Zelda decides to ignore the ledge and FW altogether.

Zelda has a few more tricks to use. First, and foremost, Din's Fire does a great job at gimping. Zeldas who face my Ness know that all it takes is one Din's to my PK Thunder. Granted, I could just throw it in front of me for a fake, but the problems with that are it's a little slower, you fall a bit longer, and it's incredibly situational. Most Ness players recover by sending PK Thunder away from the stage... and the more range you put between the lightning and Din's Fire, the bigger the detonating range of Din's. Blowing Din's up takes away PK Thunder, and Ness dies. There's also the very, very disturbing fact that Zelda's Fsmash outprioritized my PKT2 once when I was recovering, and I wouldn't be surprised if she had other attacks that went over it. Then there's the fact that uair and dair have stupid priority over Ness. (Yes, dair has priority. I thought I was just whiffing my uair, yet I tested it myself, and Zelda's dair has a somewhat strick timeframe where it's gonna go over Ness's uair.) uair might be easy to see coming, but so are airdodges. dair would be used when Din's isn't the better choice, and you can easily kill Ness with it when he's using PK Thunder. It's also pretty strong itself when it sweetspots. Then there's also the fact that if Ness does hit Zelda with PKT2, he doesn't go as far, and this has also caused me death.

Simply put, Zelda travels safer and faster than Ness does, and she doesn't die from a canceled projectile. Ness can kill with his recovery for a surprise twist of events, but... that's about all he has over Zelda in terms of recovery. Plus his gimps aren't as deadly, mainly because PK Thunder doesn't really kill people like Zelda.

 

[Cazcom]

When you say Zelda can gimp better than ness... I whole heartedly disagree. I was not suggesting that you use PKT to hit zelda while she's off the stage as your form of edge guard. A good ness can recognize the distance Zelda will travel.

When Zelda is at the distance where she would grab the edge, she is easily edge-guarded due to the slow start-up of FW. When Zelda is at a point where she would land on the stage, PKT2 false-edgeguard is pretty much an instant kill because of the landing lag.

Zelda's Dair does not edge-guard effectively against Ness. Like I was saying earlier, Ness's Uair comes out much quicker than the Dair, making it a very poor edge-guarding tool for zelda.

If the Ness player you are going against dies from Din's fire cancelling PKT (and I mean if the EVER happens, even 1 in 100 games), the ness player is not a good ness player. I have to have played close to 1000 matches against Zelda, and I have NEVER had this happen. DF has a long time before it reaches Ness, and it's very easy to PSI magnet it., while still giving yourself plenty of time to get back to the stage. Once again, I have NEVER, EVER had this happen, and I reject this ridiculous claim immediately

Who gimps with PKT? I feel like you should get to know how Ness's game works before comparing it to zeldas, but iduno. Sorry if that sounds rude
__________________________________________________

Yuna,

I'll start off with the snake comment. Ness > Snake. I haven't lost to a snake in a tourney yet. But that's a different point.

I'm glad you admit that ness can combo/"combo" better than Zelda. That's a start. But if you admit this, I'm confused as to where you are getting Zelda's advantage. Is Zelda heavier? Does it come from her recovery ability? Does she gimp better than Ness? Or does she have more effective kill moves against ness than Ness does again her? I don't know because all you've done is tear down what I have said.

Tell me what you feels makes Zelda on even ground with Ness.

(btw, the Lighning kick only out prioritizes Ness if Zelda's core is slightly above Ness's core. If they are even or Ness is slightly above Zelda, ness has priority)

Also, I'd love to play against you. I know some Americans aren't good with geography, but I'm pretty sure you are not driving distance from seattle, washington I could try playing online, but I think we all know that if there is even the slightest hint of Input lag, Ness's game is completely destroyed. That's why I have a No online policy. If you wanted to play around a little, and test some of these scenarios, to get a better understanding of how the match-up works, I'd be happy to do so.

(FC : 4124 4661 2739)

<fanboy>

As weird as this will sound, I'm convinced Ness is High tier. The only people he has a disadvantage against, that I've seen are G&W and Marth. He also has a slight disadvantage against the Space Animals.

</fanboy>


*and as for combos, yes I've combo'd up from 0-80%. But I was talking about comboing 70-80% when Zelda is already at 80% to begin with. Because, honestly, I can keep a zelda up in there for a long, long time with pkf.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

After 2 posts of this crap that is not only biased but, in some places, entirely untrue, I've decided to ignore Cazcom. Seriously... don't wvwn bother.. you can't change his misguided opinion.

There's also the very, very disturbing fact that Zelda's Fsmash outprioritized my PKT2 once when I was recovering...

*whistles*

 

[Cazcom]

wow...thank you for ignoring me completely? I'm not trying to go off anything other than what I've experienced in my tournament play. I don't know what everyone else is basing their experience off of, but like I said, I get my information from the near uncountable number of zelda matches I play.

If my experience makes me biased/untrue, then I don't know what makes someone unbiased.

Zelda's Fsmash only outprioritizes the PKT2 recovery when you are at the very tail end of the recovery, if that is going to be the case, Ness should angle to hit the ledge. In other words, Zelda shouldn't be able to Fsmash your PKT2 unless you're using it as an attack (which a good ness player would strike with the first part, which outprioritizeis Zelda's Fsmash).

 

[Gindler]

Well when I saw that you said you've never lost to a snake in a tourney I figured that tournies near your area must not be too big or no one around there knows how to use a snake or you were just lucky enough to not get matched up with a decent one. But I'd say Snake>ness but that Bthrow is the most reliable kill move to use on a snake player....anywho.

On the note of the thread though, yes I don't even know why there's a discussion, Ness shreads zelda. Hence why I use him since yoshi (my main) gets shredded by zelda and ness just seems to bat her to the side with ease. I'm sure if you ask every zelda main (minus yuna and sonic) they'd tell you that Ness is a beast for them to play and they probably secondary marth or something for that reason.

 

[NKCell]

Zelda's bair and fair do have better reach, but the problem is they are so predictable. Zelda, when in the air, has very distinct and obvious areas of attack. Either directly to the sides of her or right above and below. Ness can strike at angles and his attacks are really good up close. Unfortunately, I haven't compared Zelda's nair to Ness' attacks. Does the nair have enough range to outreach Ness' nair or uair?

 

[Cazcom]

Well when I saw that you said you've never lost to a snake in a tourney I figured that tournies near your area must not be too big or no one around there knows how to use a snake or you were just lucky enough to not get matched up with a decent one. But I'd say Snake>ness but that Bthrow is the most reliable kill move to use on a snake player....anywho.

I live in washington, and the tourneys in my area are pretty big. I've been matched up against some pretty good snakes, bu they usually also main mk/marth (which are my two worst match-ups). Unfortunately, I haven't played the #1 washington player (Kamaji), who mains snake. If I can get a match against him, I'll let you know how it goes. I'd love to learn what all the snake fuss is about. It'd be an honor to lose to him =P
_____________

NK,

I'm almost positive Zelda's Nair beat out Ness's Nair. I'm not sure about Uair, but Ness's Fair beat Zelda's Nair.

 

[Brinzy]

Well when I saw that you said you've never lost to a snake in a tourney I figured that tournies near your area must not be too big or no one around there knows how to use a snake or you were just lucky enough to not get matched up with a decent one. But I'd say Snake>ness but that Bthrow is the most reliable kill move to use on a snake player....anywho.

On the note of the thread though, yes I don't even know why there's a discussion, Ness shreads zelda. Hence why I use him since yoshi (my main) gets shredded by zelda and ness just seems to bat her to the side with ease. I'm sure if you ask every zelda main (minus yuna and sonic) they'd tell you that Ness is a beast for them to play and they probably secondary marth or something for that reason.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176535

Note how I supported Ness beforehand and considered it in Ness's favor. This is before I actually played a good Zelda. Your certainty of this matchup doesn't show.

When you say Zelda can gimp better than ness... I whole heartedly disagree. I was not suggesting that you use PKT to hit zelda while she's off the stage as your form of edge guard. A good ness can recognize the distance Zelda will travel.

When Zelda is at the distance where she would grab the edge, she is easily edge-guarded due to the slow start-up of FW. When Zelda is at a point where she would land on the stage, PKT2 false-edgeguard is pretty much an instant kill because of the landing lag.

Zelda's Dair does not edge-guard effectively against Ness. Like I was saying earlier, Ness's Uair comes out much quicker than the Dair, making it a very poor edge-guarding tool for zelda.

If the Ness player you are going against dies from Din's fire cancelling PKT (and I mean if the EVER happens, even 1 in 100 games), the ness player is not a good ness player. I have to have played close to 1000 matches against Zelda, and I have NEVER had this happen. DF has a long time before it reaches Ness, and it's very easy to PSI magnet it., while still giving yourself plenty of time to get back to the stage. Once again, I have NEVER, EVER had this happen, and I reject this ridiculous claim immediately

Who gimps with PKT? I feel like you should get to know how Ness's game works before comparing it to zeldas, but iduno. Sorry if that sounds rude

Oh, I see, so because it's never happen to you, it doesn't happen? Right.

Anyone can guess where Ness and Zelda when recover. You don't have to be a genius to figure it out.

Zelda doesn't HAVE to grab the edge. Do you realize she can be a lot closer to the edge and still sweetspot the edge? If she sees you going for the edge, you just have to land on the stage. The only time you'll edgeguard her is when she has no choice BUT to grab the edge. The same exact thing applies to Ness, but I'm sure you'll disagree with that logic.

PKT2 false-edgeguard is an "instant kill"? Are you forgetting that Zelda can warp INTO Ness and just end that? Once again, you're all acting like the Zelda won't think at all.

You obviously didn't read all of what I said when I mentioned Zelda's dair. "Oh, you can uair it." Note the part where I said she can dair when Ness is starting PK Thunder - easy, easy spike, and if you go down below the stage to get away from it, you'll get edge-hogged, and if you do it above the stage, you'll get uair'd. All three ways lead to death, but oh no, I must be totally wrong about this, too.

1 in a hundred chance of Din's knocking off PK Thunder? Get in a match against some better Zelda players and see if you think that's the case. Once again, you're underrating Zelda's gimping abilities. That's just like saying there's only a 1% chance of getting a lightning kick, which isn't the case. Oh, and, you don't PSI Magnet while you're PK Thundering, nor do you see the move start up and just hold it out forever when you need to Up B.

It's not a ridiculous claim, and just because your friends don't do it (and using your friends as an example of what Zelda's max potential is is a horrible, horrible idea) doesn't mean nobody else doesn't do it. It happens to better Ness players, too. If Ness/Lucas can gimp each other with a stupid down B and G&W can do the same, why can't Zelda do it? The only difference here is that she's throwing a projectile and she doesn't have to rush down herself. What's ridiculous is your in-depth, "one side of the story" guide of match-ups that wouldn't sit with the other boards. That's ridiculous, not what happens in skilled Ness vs. Zelda match-ups.

And btw, people DO gimp with PK Thunder, apparently. That's what people suggested earlier. "Tailwhip the ledge, no more Zelda!" I know what Ness can do - hell, he's my main. I'm just saying, once again, he's getting far too much credit in this matchup.

Zelda's bair and fair do have better reach, but the problem is they are so predictable. Zelda, when in the air, has very distinct and obvious areas of attack. Either directly to the sides of her or right above and below. Ness can strike at angles and his attacks are really good up close. Unfortunately, I haven't compared Zelda's nair to Ness' attacks. Does the nair have enough range to outreach Ness' nair or uair?

So Ness wins in the air. Hurrah, let's say this another 100 times and we'll be at a thousand soon.

Again, people are acting like nobody can predict Ness's aerials, but you get a ****ing crystal ball to predict Zelda. Even if Ness beats her mostly in the air and he can absorb Din's, I ask you people: what is it that makes this a clear-cut win for Ness? I do not need to hear:

- aerials
- PSI Magnet

because I've already heard this a billion times. I also do not want to read any la-de-dah situations for Zelda where she's just gonna tell you everything she's gonna do while Ness can hide in the shadows and- BAM HE'S GOTCHA!

This isn't an attack against you or anything; I'm just tired of discussing/reading about the aerials between the two.

Zelda's Fsmash only outprioritizes the PKT2 recovery when you are at the very tail end of the recovery, if that is going to be the case, Ness should angle to hit the ledge. In other words, Zelda shouldn't be able to Fsmash your PKT2 unless you're using it as an attack (which a good ness player would strike with the first part, which outprioritizeis Zelda's Fsmash).

The best Ness player won't be hitting with the beginning in my situation, considering that Fsmash situation I said happened to me as I was recovering. Yes, I tried to get the ledge, but I missed the ledge by a tiny bit because I simply was not aligned to hit the edge no matter how precise I could be, and I got Fsmash'd before I finished the attack. It was really stupid.

But of course, I expect a, "This was your own fault, you're a bad Ness player"-esque response after this, from people who have never missed the ledge... like, ever.

 

[Cazcom]

I have an 8 page paper due in the morning, so I'll get back to you tomorrow, but I didn want to jump in quickly and say please don't bash my ness guide. Of course it's one-sided. It's advice on how to handle things Zelda may do during a match. Sue me for thinking (along with most of the ness community) that We will tear zeldas to shreds.

I'll let you know when I play a good zelda, because apparently my partner is terrible. Maybe we should stop placing in tourneys...

 

[Brinzy]

I made a lot of assumptions admittedly (and insulted your guide for no real reason, I apologize), but I just don't see why things Zelda can do will rarely/never happen, but Ness's will mostly happen. Placing in local tournaments, to be honest, doesn't tell me much more about you, besides the fact that you can beat other players. You're still on your own playstyle, and not everyone has the same playstyle. Some people love Zelda's Usmash, while I think I utilt more than I Usmash. That doesn't mean, however, that by saying this, utilt is suddenly infinitely better because I use it a lot more than I probably should.

I guess the whole point of this is that just playing a good Zelda isn't usually enough because characters can be played in all sorts of ways, and I, for one, rarely chase down my opponents with Zelda because I have relatively crappy reflexes, and so I'm more prone to gimping with Din's Fire than I am to spiking. Most people probably don't play like me, which is why you probably think it never happens.


Advice on how to handle a character requires in-depth knowledge from both sides unless it's a clear counter. I don't know why people assume, "ok, I'll type this up, and this is the law, end of."

 

[Yuna]

When you say Zelda can gimp better than ness... I whole heartedly disagree. I was not suggesting that you use PKT to hit zelda while she's off the stage as your form of edge guard. A good ness can recognize the distance Zelda will travel.

That distance is very far and Ness is not Sonic.

When Zelda is at the distance where she would grab the edge, she is easily edge-guarded due to the slow start-up of FW. When Zelda is at a point where she would land on the stage, PKT2 false-edgeguard is pretty much an instant kill because of the landing lag.

Zelda very rarely has to recover from such a distance that she has to sweetspot the ledge. DI and air control towards the stage will take care of this. Her Up B has also been buffed, giving it a hitbox when she reappears as well, so she's not "easily edge-guarded".

Also, did you know that if she lands during Farore's Wind, she has virtually no lag? For that matter, does your teammate know?

Zelda's Dair does not edge-guard effectively against Ness. Like I was saying earlier, Ness's Uair comes out much quicker than the Dair, making it a very poor edge-guarding tool for zelda.

Why would we randomly jump out and Dair you while you're not recovering. Hey, Fair has more range than Ness' Fair as far as I know, much mean he can't edgeguard her either if she recovers high (and isn't as stupid as to let Ness edgegurad her from below)!

If the Ness player you are going against dies from Din's fire cancelling PKT (and I mean if the EVER happens, even 1 in 100 games), the ness player is not a good ness player. I have to have played close to 1000 matches against Zelda, and I have NEVER had this happen.

Who is this idiot Zelda, anyway?

DF has a long time before it reaches Ness, and it's very easy to PSI magnet it., while still giving yourself plenty of time to get back to the stage. Once again, I have NEVER, EVER had this happen, and I reject this ridiculous claim immediately

I'm sorry, I just hit you off the stage and made you lose your 2nd jump. You cannot Air Control towards it, you need to Up B. What will you do? You'll Up B. Meanwhile, I know this, so I startup Din's Fire and wait for you to PKT.

Who gimps with PKT? I feel like you should get to know how Ness's game works before comparing it to zeldas, but iduno. Sorry if that sounds rude

What gimps PKT? Anyone who jumps out and Fairs or Bairs Ness in the face. Anyone who Dair Meteors him. Anyone who just jumps out and takes the hit. Zelda jumping out and Uairing Ness, killing him at 60-70%.

I'll start off with the snake comment. Ness > Snake. I haven't lost to a snake in a tourney yet. But that's a different point.

1) How many tourneys have you gone to?
2) What were these tournies called?
3) How many Snakes have you faced?
4) How many people attended these tourneys?
5) Name said Snakes.
6) Your personal experiences are inconsequential.

I'm glad you admit that ness can combo/"combo" better than Zelda. That's a start. But if you admit this, I'm confused as to where you are getting Zelda's advantage. Is Zelda heavier? Does it come from her recovery ability? Does she gimp better than Ness? Or does she have more effective kill moves against ness than Ness does again her? I don't know because all you've done is tear down what I have said.

1) Oh yeah, he can combo a bit. And? Zelda doesn't combo people. She just hits you a few times and then you'll die from then ext hit. If Zelda sucks because of this, why isn't she bottom tier?
2) I've answered the rest of your questions already. Read better.

Tell me what you feels makes Zelda on even ground with Ness.

Said above.

(btw, the Lighning kick only out prioritizes Ness if Zelda's core is slightly above Ness's core. If they are even or Ness is slightly above Zelda, ness has priority)

Wait, I said this when? I said it outranges Ness.

As weird as this will sound, I'm convinced Ness is High tier. The only people he has a disadvantage against, that I've seen are G&W and Marth. He also has a slight disadvantage against the Space Animals.

Oh yeah, he's so good against Snake!

*and as for combos, yes I've combo'd up from 0-80%. But I was talking about comboing 70-80% when Zelda is already at 80% to begin with. Because, honestly, I can keep a zelda up in there for a long, long time with pkf.

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
I wanna 500 dollar moneymatch your teammate... now. If your teammate allows that to happen, he is terrible. Placing Top 10 or Top 12 in a minor local tournament in teams is meaningless.

 

[Cazcom]

1) How many tourneys have you gone to?
2) What were these tournies called?
3) How many Snakes have you faced?
4) How many people attended these tourneys?
5) Name said Snakes.
6) Your personal experiences are inconsequential.
________________

1) 5 tourneys
2) 3 different Game Clucks Tourneys and two of Ademisk's Tourneys
3) 3 in tourney play, 1-2 friendlies
4) attendance is about 20-30 at ademisks and 40-50 at Game Clucks
5) AJ, Flash, and Some Random in tourney play. Emo$ (for friendlies). and I can't remember the other ones name, but I remember playing him.
6) That's a lot of hate....

placing top 7 in the largest tourneys in your state isn't meaningless. Please don't try to cut down the legitimacy of my tourament play. That's not very nice

My teammate is Awkward Sauce. He doesn't post here (or anywhere), but we should be going to another tournament on Aug 2nd if he can get work off. I'll record some matches. Hell, I have a recorder, I'll try to get him to come and play some matches against me, and I'll post them. Sadly, I think you'll just bash him b/c I destroy him in singles.

And my offer is still out there to you, Yuna. Despite my innate suspicion that you are here with the stubborn belief that Zelda has an advantage against ness, I want to offer to play you, compete against you, or just try to work to figure out what exactly outranges or outprioritizes what.

 

[Brinzy]

I don't think Yuna said Zelda has an advantage against Ness... or if he did, I missed it. I could've sworn we were arguing, at the very least, that Ness didn't deserve a check vs. her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Why would we randomly jump out and Dair you while you're not recovering. Hey, Fair has more range than Ness' Fair as far as I know, much mean he can't edgeguard her either if she recovers high (and isn't as stupid as to let Ness edgegurad her from below)!

Ness's fair utterly rejects Zelda's fair. I'm not switching sides here... I just don't want coclusions to be drawn from misstatements.

 

[Yuna]

Cazcom: You mentioned friendlies. You lose.
Raph: IMO, the matchup is fairly even. I started out arguing that Zelda has a tiny advantage, but now I'm leaning towards Ness having a small advantage. It's not a huge advantage, however.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

bah... it's too early to decide SLIGHT advantages.... it's essentially even... that's all ya need to know.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, that's exactly where I stand, Yuna. As you can see, however, it's supposedly worse...

 

[NKCell]

Sounds like things are calming down a bit.

Raphael. I only mentioned the aerial part because Yuna was eluding (if not stating) that Zelda actually had a better aerial game. Yes, Zelda loses in the air and yes, that doesn't mean that she is automatically the suxor against Ness.

Let's be honest here, neither Ness nor Zelda are going to be top tier. I doubt either character is going to be the **** against anything. However, once we dispose of the matchups that Snake and MK can enjoy, we can start talking about moderate or slight advantages.

 

[Yuna]

Raphael. I only mentioned the aerial part because Yuna was eluding (if not stating) that Zelda actually had a better aerial game. Yes, Zelda loses in the air and yes, that doesn't mean that she is automatically the suxor against Ness.

No I didn't.

I said some of her aerials outrange Ness and her aerials are stronger. I never said "I Zelda fairs Ness at the exact time Ness fairs Zelda, Zelda wins".

 

[NKCell]

I'm sorry, what?
Zelda's Fair and Bair are faster and have more range and priority, unless I'm mistaken.

I could be wrong, but this sounds like "I Zelda fairs Ness at the exact time Ness fairs Zelda, Zelda wins." I'm sorry if I misunderstood this remark. Anyway, the aerial game discussion seems rather irrelevant at this point since both sides have come to an understanding.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Yuna! SAY HI ****IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay lets end this!

Ness: Hey lady, wanna grab a drink?
Zelda: Aren't you underaged...
Ness: So?

 

[Cazcom]

Yuna,

You asked for every Snake I faced. So I listed them all. Don't shoot be down because of a complete answer.

It's clear that no one hear believes me when I say Ness has a huge advantage against zelda. I guess I'll just pray we meet at a tourney some day. Who knows, maybe I'll be in Sweden soon

 

[Nestec]

Sorry, Cazcom, but I'm settling for a neutral on this one. I just can no longer see why Ness dominates Zelda...

 

[Yuna]

Cazcom: I haven't lost to a snake in a tourney yet.
Me: Name said Snakes.

I did not ask you to name friendlies, but the Snakes you haven't yet lost to in a tourney.

 

[Cazcom]

I named those, as well as friendlies I did at tournaments. Sorry for not realizing that naming friendlies is against the rules.
_______

Nestec,

Settle for what you want. I don't really care what the elitist Back Roomers want to say the match-ups are. I'll bring home the prize money with Ness either way. And that's the bottom line.

 

[Brinzy]

Nice way to end your point. "I don't care what you think, so I'll just win tournaments!" Like anyone here said Ness gets destroyed by Zelda. That stance is exactly why this thread is so **** long.

I sincerely believe you need to play more Zeldas. Just because you hold a belief and you have better personal experience vs. "a skilled Zelda" who apparently only shows one fighting style doesn't mean you're right at all. I'm sorry, but with the way you talk about Zelda, it's clear that you're just trying to hold up an advantage for him because he doesn't have very many left.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

sooooo...
have we reached a general consensus here, besides cazcom. He doesn't count lol. Is it neutral or slight advantage for Ness?
it isn't really any point in arguing this butchered topic anymore.

 

[Yuna]

I don't recognize a single one of those Snakes Cazcom mentioned. Does anyone else? Are they just randoms? And if so, then why should we care?

I can name as many Nesses I've destroyed in tournaments (and friendlies) as Zelda. Wheee.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I don't recognize a single one of those Snakes Cazcom mentioned. Does anyone else? Are they just randoms? And if so, then why should we care?

I can name as many Nesses I've destroyed in tournaments (and friendlies) as Zelda. Wheee.

LOL nope! Never heard of them.
Besides i've seen a video of his Ness getting *****. (it was in teams though). Also, when i looked at the thunderhorse video he made of he pkt/pkt2 kills he got, he was losing half the time lol. Good Pkt/Pkt2 kills though... btw tell your opponents to learn how to airdodge. It'll work wonders.

 

[Cazcom]

LOL nope! Never heard of them.
Besides i've seen a video of his Ness getting *****. (it was in teams though). Also, when i looked at the thunderhorse video he made of he pkt/pkt2 kills he got, he was losing half the time lol. Good Pkt/Pkt2 kills though... btw tell your opponents to learn how to airdodge. It'll work wonders.

It was teams, and online. Massive fail.

And I hate to turn to both Yuna and Pink and say stfu, but your pathetic ad hominems have no place in an intellegent discussion. Maybe no one else has the guts to stand up to the almighty Back roomers, but if you don't want to have a reasonable discussion, and would prefer to just attack my person, there's no place for you on this board.


EDIT : also, if it makes you actually care to know, in my PKT2 video, I was winning in 27 of the clips, and losing in 6 of them. Get your facts straight. Air dodge? learn how to tail-whip.

 

[Brinzy]

Ok, if their ad hominems bother you, why are you arguing for Ness based off of personal experience? That's just as bad.

 

[Uffe]

I'd just put it at neutral and get this topic over and done with until we can all stop playing favorites. So until somone can prove who has a better advantage over who, I'd suggest leaving this up to skill and not character attributes.

 

[Earthbound360]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4420183#post4420183

Gawd are ALL Zelda players mean?
I'm glad I don't paly Zelda then O_o

 

[Brinzy]

lol, Ryoko's always like that. He's not mean.


And yes, I was vying for neutral in the first place.

 

[Levitas]

Neutral sounds correct to me.