New Abilities Introduced in Tears of the Kingdom?

[Jotari]

After seventeen years we've finally got some new moveset potential for Ganondorf on Smash :0 Although...honestly not much. His boss battle in Tears of the Kingdom is quite standard.

The most immediate noticable thing is a set of four weapons associated him, matching the four weapon types of Switch Zelda. But those are a club, which is indistinguishable to the sword he already uses for his smash attacks, a sword, which we already know he uses and a spear, which is pretty functionally similar to the trident he always had the potential to use (though it's nice that he has something like it in human form). The last is a bow, which is kind of new for him, and even has a property of dealing more damage the more (maximum) health you have which could work like an inverse Lucario. Not sure I want to see something like that on Ganondorf specifically though.

How he uses these weapons are pretty generic swings. He has some leaping attacks that could be used in aerials I guess. There is a rush attack leaving behind a trail of gloom that could be a decent substitute for Wizard's Foot. He also summons generic dark energy in waves a long the ground and some projectiles.

Not much punching or kicking u fortunately Though he does seem to perform one pretty epic punch in a cutscene that we are woefully unable to actually see.

So is there anything I specifically would like to see adapted into his moveset? Yeah, kind of, though it's actually an idea I've had for a while on my custom specials doc. And that is to give him Zelda's Phantom as a down special, only he'd summon Phantom Ganon. Previously I'd chosen the Wind Waker/Four Swords Adventures Phantom Ganon, but with Phantom Ganon's somewhat more prominent role in Tears of the Kingdom it seems likes it would be a perfect fit. The attack would be a charge store with three phases. Doing it immediately has Phantom Ganon attack with Gloom Sword. A moderate charge has a more ranger Gloom Spear and a full charge would be Gloom Club having the same range but with more power. Phantom Ganon even has an etheral looking rush attack that looks like it would fit right into Smash. Summoning Phantom Ganon is actually one of Ganondorf's more consistent tactics, if not attacks, so it actually fits very well as an attack for him.

 

[IsmaR]

Phantom Ganon incorporation seems interesting, but I'd question if it's what they want to go for for his character archetype in Smash (same way everyone always wants a version of Deadman's Volley, which I guess TotK Ganondorf had an equivalent "energy sphere circle" attack that could be deflected back at him, but it's not what most would say is memorable about the fight).

I actually like some of the unique weapon moves with the idea that they'd spread gloom. The spear thrust being a mobility option/functionally replacing Wizard's Foot while leaving an AoE that slows/adds DoT on opponents, or even the gloom club energy wave (which I think could be made into a specific aerial version of neutral B) to give some slow moving projectiles that can't be blocked. Gloom itself being a passive effect added to some normals that use darkness, albeit rebalanced to not be as potent as the specials.

If nothing else I at least hope we finally get this Ganondorf as a template for the sole fact that I thought it was incredibly refreshing seeing him be so nimble/acrobatic. I know they would give him like flurry rush, but at least showing he has quick burst speed when he needs to should be something they pull from.

 

[Janx_uwu]

I'd be down for Phantom Ganon as a Ganon clone who has faster movement and increased range (with the weapons you mentioned) but damages himself due to Gloom Toll. Make sure he has two sets of alts (for OoT and TotK) and we're set!

 

[Quillion]

I think TotK Ganondorf should be the default appearance for him in the next Smash (without neglecting his other appearances as alts).

But in terms of moveset, just keep it the same (and revert to the old Smashes). I just don't like the idea of Ganondorf being a sword user in Smash or in Zelda, yet TotK insists on keeping up with the trend of Ganondorf always being a sword user.

Seriously, the SpaceWorld demo is probably the worst thing to ever happen to Ganondorf, now Nintendo and fans alike just expect Ganondorf to be a sword user from then on.

 

[Jotari]

I think TotK Ganondorf should be the default appearance for him in the next Smash (without neglecting his other appearances as alts).

I really wish we had all of his different incarnations as costume. I like that we went back to the Ocarina of Time appearance in Smash Ultimate, but his Twilight Princess design is cool too and they already had the model rigged to smash. It surely wouldn't have been that hard to import it from ultimate and update it a bit as a costume alt. His Wind Waker appearance would be harder to implement because of the flowing robe, but I'm sure it'd still be possible. Likewise, give me all the different incarnations of Link and Samus as alts too.

 

[Quillion]

I really wish we had all of his different incarnations as costume. I like that we went back to the Ocarina of Time appearance in Smash Ultimate, but his Twilight Princess design is cool too and they already had the model rigged to smash. It surely wouldn't have been that hard to import it from ultimate and update it a bit as a costume alt. His Wind Waker appearance would be harder to implement because of the flowing robe, but I'm sure it'd still be possible. Likewise, give me all the different incarnations of Link and Samus as alts too.

It's definitely possible with Ganondorf, give or take that the WW design would need to be modified to fit with the Smash animations.

But I don't think it would work with Link, given that each incarnation starting with SS are increasingly different in terms of abilities, AND the 3D games have switched him to right-handedness.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

It's definitely possible with Ganondorf, give or take that the WW design would need to be modified to fit with the Smash animations.

But I don't think it would work with Link, given that each incarnation starting with SS are increasingly different in terms of abilities, AND the 3D games have switched him to right-handedness.

While the left-handedness is certainly unique, right-handed Link doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is that there's 3 Links with basically the same moves and out of all the classic green tunics, I hate BotW's the most, which is the basis for the even alts of adult Link, including the massacred Fierce Deity skin.

 

[Jotari]

It's definitely possible with Ganondorf, give or take that the WW design would need to be modified to fit with the Smash animations.

But I don't think it would work with Link, given that each incarnation starting with SS are increasingly different in terms of abilities, AND the 3D games have switched him to right-handedness.

I don't really care that the different incarnations have different abilities. Every version of Link in Smash has utilized abilities from across the entire series.

 

[Perkilator]

I actually made a Ganondorf overhaul a while ago that tapped into his fight at the end of the game.

 

[Quillion]

While the left-handedness is certainly unique, right-handed Link doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is that there's 3 Links with basically the same moves and out of all the classic green tunics, I hate BotW's the most, which is the basis for the even alts of adult Link, including the massacred Fierce Deity skin.

It's not that Link's new right-handedness in the 3D games is bad for his portrayal; it's that SS and Wild Saga Link CAN'T have the same model and animations as the OoT-TP Links for that reason.

Unless we really need to fudge the animations by making them all left-handed and giving them bomb and boomerang mechanics unified among them, as well as giving BotW Link a made-up hookshot for his grab... which I honestly wouldn't mind.

I don't really care that the different incarnations have different abilities. Every version of Link in Smash has utilized abilities from across the entire series.

Yes, but Link was modified a bit in Brawl to incorporate a few unique elements from TP itself, and he was modified even more in Ultimate to incorporate more unique elements from BotW (some of them notably even disappearing for TotK, making it technically outdated).

Again though, see the second paragraph of my response to Mr. Mediocre.

 

[Jotari]

It's not that Link's new right-handedness in the 3D games is bad for his portrayal; it's that SS and Wild Saga Link CAN'T have the same model and animations as the OoT-TP Links for that reason.

Unless we really need to fudge the animations by making them all left-handed and giving them bomb and boomerang mechanics unified among them, as well as giving BotW Link a made-up hookshot for his grab... which I honestly wouldn't mind.



Yes, but Link was modified a bit in Brawl to incorporate a few unique elements from TP itself, and he was modified even more in Ultimate to incorporate more unique elements from BotW (some of them notably even disappearing for TotK, making it technically outdated).

Again though, see the second paragraph of my response to Mr. Mediocre.

Yes, Link in Smash should always be left handed, and he should go back to left handed in mainline games too. And he should always have bombs, bow, boomerangs and hook shot in some form as his specials/grabs since those are his most classic recurring weapons, even if the newest incarnation doesn't use them. Spin attack should be there too but I don't think necessarily as an up special, it can be a down smash if a better recovery presents itself. This wasn't an issue back in Smash 64 and Melee. where they have Ocarina of Time Link a boomerang even though he specifically couldn't use on as an adult in that game. And Young Link likewise use the OoT hook shot and bow even though he couldn't use it in that game, he could use a visually different hook shot and bow in Majora's Mask, but he also had a different sword and shield in that game because the Smash versions are and should be viewed as composite characters. To go too authentic to a singular version which will be outdated in a few years is to miss the forest from the trees. And that nature of them as composite characters is also why multiple costumes should be available, as he should be a representation of the character as a whole, even if it leads to some minor inconsistencies like adult Ocarina of Time Link using a boomerang. We see a lot weirder stuff in Smash to make characters work, like Ness taking all of his special moves from other characters in his game (or, indeed, to keep it closer to home, Zelda using spells Link used once over 25 years ago that haven't appeared since, not only does Ocarina of Time Zelda not use Din's Fire, Twilight Princess Zelda doesn't even exist in the same world as the spell).

 

[Oracle Link]

I have to say you cant have oot, tp or WW Gananondorf as alts only their outfits Same reason why i dont include young link as an alt...
Proportions! However sure including the outfits/ Hair or beardstyles would be cool and totk has the best build anyways!
Maybe Demon king Ganondorf and possibly a made up ganon could be costumes too?
Also which Final smash should totk ganon have? I think demondragon would be to specific maybe dark beast ganon? Thats atleast a pig?
Eventho classic ganon would be cooler! Although he could be a boss!

Spoiler

Yes, Link in Smash should always be left handed, and he should go back to left handed in mainline games too. And he should always have bombs, bow, boomerangs and hook shot in some form as his specials/grabs since those are his most classic recurring weapons, even if the newest incarnation doesn't use them. Spin attack should be there too but I don't think necessarily as an up special, it can be a down smash if a better recovery presents itself. This wasn't an issue back in Smash 64 and Melee. where they have Ocarina of Time Link a boomerang even though he specifically couldn't use on as an adult in that game. And Young Link likewise use the OoT hook shot and bow even though he couldn't use it in that game, he could use a visually different hook shot and bow in Majora's Mask, but he also had a different sword and shield in that game because the Smash versions are and should be viewed as composite characters. To go too authentic to a singular version which will be outdated in a few years is to miss the forest from the trees. And that nature of them as composite characters is also why multiple costumes should be available, as he should be a representation of the character as a whole, even if it leads to some minor inconsistencies like adult Ocarina of Time Link using a boomerang. We see a lot weirder stuff in Smash to make characters work, like Ness taking all of his special moves from other characters in his game (or, indeed, to keep it closer to home, Zelda using spells Link used once over 25 years ago that haven't appeared since, not only does Ocarina of Time Zelda not use Din's Fire, Twilight Princess Zelda doesn't even exist in the same world as the spell).

This up there!

 

[Quillion]

Yes, Link in Smash should always be left handed, and he should go back to left handed in mainline games too. And he should always have bombs, bow, boomerangs and hook shot in some form as his specials/grabs since those are his most classic recurring weapons, even if the newest incarnation doesn't use them. Spin attack should be there too but I don't think necessarily as an up special, it can be a down smash if a better recovery presents itself. This wasn't an issue back in Smash 64 and Melee. where they have Ocarina of Time Link a boomerang even though he specifically couldn't use on as an adult in that game. And Young Link likewise use the OoT hook shot and bow even though he couldn't use it in that game, he could use a visually different hook shot and bow in Majora's Mask, but he also had a different sword and shield in that game because the Smash versions are and should be viewed as composite characters. To go too authentic to a singular version which will be outdated in a few years is to miss the forest from the trees. And that nature of them as composite characters is also why multiple costumes should be available, as he should be a representation of the character as a whole, even if it leads to some minor inconsistencies like adult Ocarina of Time Link using a boomerang. We see a lot weirder stuff in Smash to make characters work, like Ness taking all of his special moves from other characters in his game (or, indeed, to keep it closer to home, Zelda using spells Link used once over 25 years ago that haven't appeared since, not only does Ocarina of Time Zelda not use Din's Fire, Twilight Princess Zelda doesn't even exist in the same world as the spell).

I mostly agree, but I think Wild Saga Link, even with the differences between BotW and TotK, is a good candidate for being his own slot, even with the differences between the two games. Especially if his general gameplay is to be the standard for future 3D games.

I'm mixed about Link returning to being left-handed in the 3D games though. Him being right-handed subtly communicates that the attack input is on the right side of the controller. Him being left-handed worked in the 3D games from OoT-MM worked when there was a massive UI to remind new players, but not so much with the minimization of UI nowadays (even in Echoes of Wisdom).

 

[Jotari]

I have to say you cant have oot, tp or WW Gananondorf as alts only their outfits Same reason why i dont include young link as an alt...
Proportions! However sure including the outfits/ Hair or beardstyles would be cool and totk has the best build anyways!
Maybe Demon king Ganondorf and possibly a made up ganon could be costumes too?
Also which Final smash should totk ganon have? I think demondragon would be to specific maybe dark beast ganon? Thats atleast a pig?
Eventho classic ganon would be cooler! Although he could be a boss!

Spoiler

This up there!

Ocarina of Time Ganondorf and Twilight Princess Ganondorf have more or less the same proportions though. Completely different to Link being a child or adult.

I mostly agree, but I think Wild Saga Link, even with the differences between BotW and TotK, is a good candidate for being his own slot, even with the differences between the two games. Especially if his general gameplay is to be the standard for future 3D games.

I'm mixed about Link returning to being left-handed in the 3D games though. Him being right-handed subtly communicates that the attack input is on the right side of the controller. Him being left-handed worked in the 3D games from OoT-MM worked when there was a massive UI to remind new players, but not so much with the minimization of UI nowadays (even in Echoes of Wisdom).

The Zelda series will do as it's always done, take elements from the Switch games and mix and match them with new ideas going forward. I don't think their success will be defining Link from here on out. Elements they'll most likely take will be the enlarged map and free roaming aspects. Echoes of Wisdom also suggests the popular building simulator mechanics will have a permanent place. But, even if all of that is factored in, at the end of the day Breath of the Wild Link still fights like Link does in (well, almost) all of the other games. Sure, you could give him an entirely unique moveset, it wouldn't be hard to do so, but I think the same could be said for pretty much every incarnation of Link, but for all of them the fundamentals of sword, bow, bombs, boomerang, spin attack etc remain. Though I wouldn't be adverse to keeping Link's bombs in Smash the remote bombs specifically, or some variation of the same idea (sidenote, Breath of the Wild was not the first time Link used remote bombs) because it is considered a really good, and, more importantly, fun, attack in Smash Bros.

As far as subtle controllers go, I'd like to think humanity is smart enough to not need subliminal messaging to retain the information of where the attack button is.

 

[Oracle Link]

Ocarina of Time Ganondorf and Twilight Princess Ganondorf have more or less the same proportions though. Completely different to Link being a child or adult.

The Zelda series will do as it's always done, take elements from the Switch games and mix and match them with new ideas going forward. I don't think their success will be defining Link from here on out. Elements they'll most likely take will be the enlarged map and free roaming aspects. Echoes of Wisdom also suggests the popular building simulator mechanics will have a permanent place. But, even if all of that is factored in, at the end of the day Breath of the Wild Link still fights like Link does in (well, almost) all of the other games. Sure, you could give him an entirely unique moveset, it wouldn't be hard to do so, but I think the same could be said for pretty much every incarnation of Link, but for all of them the fundamentals of sword, bow, bombs, boomerang, spin attack etc remain. Though I wouldn't be adverse to keeping Link's bombs in Smash the remote bombs specifically, or some variation of the same idea (sidenote, Breath of the Wild was not the first time Link used remote bombs) because it is considered a really good, and, more importantly, fun, attack in Smash Bros.

As far as subtle controllers go, I'd like to think humanity is smart enough to not need subliminal messaging to retain the information of where the attack button is.

First im obviously am suggesting Toy and toon being on a separate character from the adult links!

Also i mean EOW showed that the oh so relevant champion designs were temporary! I already guessed that while link and zelda will get more outfits the default would probably be the classic outfits again sooner or later!
Like the Champion outfits are so tied to the BOTW/ TOTK time period it wouldnt really make sense for them to be the new default!

 

[Jotari]

First im obviously am suggesting Toy and toon being on a separate character from the adult links!

Also i mean EOW showed that the oh so relevant champion designs were temporary! I already guessed that while link and zelda will get more outfits the default would probably be the classic outfits again sooner or later!
Like the Champion outfits are so tied to the BOTW/ TOTK time period it wouldnt really make sense for them to be the new default!

I actually don't know what you're saying.

 

[Quillion]

Going back to the original topic, I honestly think that Ganondorf fights so differently from game-to-game that he effectively has no iconic moves. By that token Smash's punching Ganondorf is just as valid of a portrayal of Zelda's main villain as any individual portrayal of Ganon (-dorf or otherwise).

Even the swords he wields in each game as as different as Shulk's Monado and Meta Knight's sword. Just considering him a "sword wielder" is an overgeneralized way of looking at his fighting styles.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

Going back to the original topic, I honestly think that Ganondorf fights so differently from game-to-game that he effectively has no iconic moves. By that token Smash's punching Ganondorf is just as valid of a portrayal of Zelda's main villain as any individual portrayal of Ganon (-dorf or otherwise).

Even the swords he wields in each game as as different as Shulk's Monado and Meta Knight's sword. Just considering him a "sword wielder" is an overgeneralized way of looking at his fighting styles.

I wouldn't go down the rabbit hole of the validity of any portrayal of a character, since if I were completely against the idea of Falcondorf, I'd deny the validity by pointing that not many characters have the same abilities from game to game, that Ganondorf still has common traits from game to game, that the Zelda team barely has any influence on Ganondorf's Smash appearance, or that the Smash team only made Ganondorf a Falcon clone just because they had no time to make him his own character and that this approach to clone characters as well as refusing to change them is at times an asinine position, which coincedentally makes it a controversial one.

I don't think we need an entirely moveset for Ganondorf, but his entire moveset does need to be reconsidered. Why does Flame Choke put him into free fall? Why can opponents mash out of it and Ganondorf dies first? Why doesn't Dark Dive travel further? Why doesn't he have some kind of reflector to deal with projectiles? Giving him a better recovery and anti-projectile moves addresses his character flaws all while making him more faithful to the Zelda canon. In another thread, I had the thought about making his current nair a unique reflector, where nair1 transforms projectiles into a Deadman's volley and nair2 kicks it back. A unique idea for a reflector that maintains his physicality while adding a magical element he sorely lacks at the moment.

We deserve more than a punching Ganondorf, we deserve a King of Darkness who won't die, swats away your pathetic projectiles, and murders you when he lands a hit.

 

[Jotari]

Going back to the original topic, I honestly think that Ganondorf fights so differently from game-to-game that he effectively has no iconic moves. By that token Smash's punching Ganondorf is just as valid of a portrayal of Zelda's main villain as any individual portrayal of Ganon (-dorf or otherwise).

Even the swords he wields in each game as as different as Shulk's Monado and Meta Knight's sword. Just considering him a "sword wielder" is an overgeneralized way of looking at his fighting styles.

I would say that Dead Man's Volley is an iconic attack for Ganondorf. I'm not saying he absolutely definitely has to have it, but it there is a clear pattern of Ganondorf battles featuring this mechanic. Maybe not directly with Ganondorf in his human form, but when you take the character as a whole with his pig beast versions, phantom versions, possessing Zelda and his other human incarnation alter ego thing, then, yeah, it pops up a lot, and such a way that its clear that it's done because it's what is part of a Ganon fight. Of course, it has some problems being translated directly to smash. Namely that an attack enemies can reflect back at you is kind of bad I'm smash. Dedede manages to make it work but he also has a pretty different play style to Ganondorf and his inhale helps to make returns a Gordo part of his strategy. There's real question if such an attack could or should work on Ganondorf in Smash. But, at it's base, if he has the ability to reflect projectiles in some way then that would be a huge boon to him. Another option would be to give Dead Man's Volley to Pig Beast Ganon, and I would love to see Pig Beast Ganon in Smash so I'd be down for that.

I wouldn't go down the rabbit hole of the validity of any portrayal of a character, since if I were completely against the idea of Falcondorf, I'd deny the validity by pointing that not many characters have the same abilities from game to game, that Ganondorf still has common traits from game to game, that the Zelda team barely has any influence on Ganondorf's Smash appearance, or that the Smash team only made Ganondorf a Falcon clone just because they had no time to make him his own character and that this approach to clone characters as well as refusing to change them is at times an asinine position, which coincedentally makes it a controversial one.

I don't think we need an entirely moveset for Ganondorf, but his entire moveset does need to be reconsidered. Why does Flame Choke put him into free fall? Why can opponents mash out of it and Ganondorf dies first? Why doesn't Dark Dive travel further? Why doesn't he have some kind of reflector to deal with projectiles? Giving him a better recovery and anti-projectile moves addresses his character flaws all while making him more faithful to the Zelda canon. In another thread, I had the thought about making his current nair a unique reflector, where nair1 transforms projectiles into a Deadman's volley and nair2 kicks it back. A unique idea for a reflector that maintains his physicality while adding a magical element he sorely lacks at the moment.

We deserve more than a punching Ganondorf, we deserve a King of Darkness who won't die, swats away your pathetic projectiles, and murders you when he lands a hit.

Absolutely agreement on Flame Choke. The moment they decided Fox and Falco's side special didn't cause free fall, they should have made that A standard across the entire roster. There is no justification for Flame Choke causing free fall in the present day. And, let's face it, his recovery needs all the help it can get.

I had a similar idea for his neutral air. I'm sure I posted it here somewhere. It would best work as a cape attack, something he genuinely does while stationary in the air in Ocarina of Time.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

I had a similar idea for his neutral air. I'm sure I posted it here somewhere. It would best work as a cape attack, something he genuinely does while stationary in the air in Ocarina of Time.

While that would work, I've come to appreciate his nair in Ultimate, it's a very satisfying multi-hit that he (unfortunately) has to rely on a lot. But having a reflector that works by transforming a projectile and swatting it back isn't something that's played around with at all. Mr G&W technically does this with his down B Oil Panic, but it doesn't feel the same.

While changing his nair to what you've described would work, it would make it kind of like the PK boys f-smash or Min-Min's u-smash, where a single hit knocks projectiles back. Leaving his nair as is while making a brand-new reflector work on top of it adds a lot more personality while keeping all its strengths. If it were up to me, I'd make his jab the cape attack for a grounded reflector (even though he does that in the air in OOT) and his nair as an aerial reflector, with nair2 destroying projectiles that haven't been transformed while landing with nair1 could lead to an electric orb sticking around for you to hit with another move for different launch angles.

If I had the coding chops, I would love to try making this work, but I have to suffice with imagining it in my head. As well as not going into free fall after Flame Choke. I also wouldn't mind if people could mash out of it so long as Ganondorf dies 2nd if they don't.

 

[Quillion]

While that would work, I've come to appreciate his nair in Ultimate, it's a very satisfying multi-hit that he (unfortunately) has to rely on a lot. But having a reflector that works by transforming a projectile and swatting it back isn't something that's played around with at all. Mr G&W technically does this with his down B Oil Panic, but it doesn't feel the same.

While changing his nair to what you've described would work, it would make it kind of like the PK boys f-smash or Min-Min's u-smash, where a single hit knocks projectiles back. Leaving his nair as is while making a brand-new reflector work on top of it adds a lot more personality while keeping all its strengths. If it were up to me, I'd make his jab the cape attack for a grounded reflector (even though he does that in the air in OOT) and his nair as an aerial reflector, with nair2 destroying projectiles that haven't been transformed while landing with nair1 could lead to an electric orb sticking around for you to hit with another move for different launch angles.

If I had the coding chops, I would love to try making this work, but I have to suffice with imagining it in my head. As well as not going into free fall after Flame Choke. I also wouldn't mind if people could mash out of it so long as Ganondorf dies 2nd if they don't.

I've proposed several times before that a tap B input should turn Warlock Punch into a weak backhand attack that reflects projectiles. The backhand could also be a nice combo starter for a change.

 

[Jotari]

While that would work, I've come to appreciate his nair in Ultimate, it's a very satisfying multi-hit that he (unfortunately) has to rely on a lot. But having a reflector that works by transforming a projectile and swatting it back isn't something that's played around with at all. Mr G&W technically does this with his down B Oil Panic, but it doesn't feel the same.

While changing his nair to what you've described would work, it would make it kind of like the PK boys f-smash or Min-Min's u-smash, where a single hit knocks projectiles back. Leaving his nair as is while making a brand-new reflector work on top of it adds a lot more personality while keeping all its strengths. If it were up to me, I'd make his jab the cape attack for a grounded reflector (even though he does that in the air in OOT) and his nair as an aerial reflector, with nair2 destroying projectiles that haven't been transformed while landing with nair1 could lead to an electric orb sticking around for you to hit with another move for different launch angles.

If I had the coding chops, I would love to try making this work, but I have to suffice with imagining it in my head. As well as not going into free fall after Flame Choke. I also wouldn't mind if people could mash out of it so long as Ganondorf dies 2nd if they don't.

I think what makes Nair so good is it's range and frame data. And I think that remains true if you visually change it from a pair of kicks to a cape attack. The nature of the attack as a set of kicks isn't crucial to how it works. It's the coverage, range, speed and lag that makes it live or die. Ganondorf has had the same nair since Melee and, as far as I know, it's only in Ultimate have people raved about it (I'm pretty sure back in Brawl down aerial was considered his best attack).

I've proposed several times before that a tap B input should turn Warlock Punch into a weak backhand attack that reflects projectiles. The backhand could also be a nice combo starter for a change.

Honestly at that point I would question why to even bother with Warlock Punch and just give him a more useful dedicated reflector. I like Warlock Punch, I acknowledge that it's not a hugely practical move and it would be a net upgrade if he has a reflector or a projectile. If it's to stay I'd rather it leaned into it's identity and it's strength as what it is, more invincibility frames, more power, maybe an option to cancel it. Give it a tap variation and it will lose its identity entirely. The hold variation would become trivia as the tap variation becomes what the attack is, especially if it can reflect projectiles. At that point a proper reflector would just be better.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

I think what makes Nair so good is it's range and frame data. And I think that remains true if you visually change it from a pair of kicks to a cape attack. The nature of the attack as a set of kicks isn't crucial to how it works. It's the coverage, range, speed and lag that makes it live or die. Ganondorf has had the same nair since Melee and, as far as I know, it's only in Ultimate have people raved about it (I'm pretty sure back in Brawl down aerial was considered his best attack).

Honestly at that point I would question why to even bother with Warlock Punch and just give him a more useful dedicated reflector. I like Warlock Punch, I acknowledge that it's not a hugely practical move and it would be a net upgrade if he has a reflector or a projectile. If it's to stay I'd rather it leaned into it's identity and it's strength as what it is, more invincibility frames, more power, maybe an option to cancel it. Give it a tap variation and it will lose its identity entirely. The hold variation would become trivia as the tap variation becomes what the attack is, especially if it can reflect projectiles. At that point a proper reflector would just be better.

Obviously his nair in Ultimate is the best it's been, whereas his dair and uair were both really good and his best moves for several games. But on the animation side, while the multi-hits make it less reliable in hitting people (especially when they're grounded when Ganondorf's rising), it makes a satisfying one-two effect that wouldn't be there if you changed it to a single hit. You could change his double kicks to anything else while still making it work identically to how his current nair functions, and it would also add another animation change from Falcon.

But every move has a form in addition to its function. Two moves can function identically, but how they're animated also influences how you perceive the move. My opinion has come around on Ganondorf's nair due to how it feels to land the double kick, and while you could make the cape attack work similarly to the double kick, I don't think it would translate as well. But that's just an opinion that hasn't been verified by actual gameplay for both sides.

 

[Jotari]

Obviously his nair in Ultimate is the best it's been, whereas his dair and uair were both really good and his best moves for several games. But on the animation side, while the multi-hits make it less reliable in hitting people (especially when they're grounded when Ganondorf's rising), it makes a satisfying one-two effect that wouldn't be there if you changed it to a single hit. You could change his double kicks to anything else while still making it work identically to how his current nair functions, and it would also add another animation change from Falcon.

But every move has a form in addition to its function. Two moves can function identically, but how they're animated also influences how you perceive the move. My opinion has come around on Ganondorf's nair due to how it feels to land the double kick, and while you could make the cape attack work similarly to the double kick, I don't think it would translate as well. But that's just an opinion that hasn't been verified by actual gameplay for both sides.

This is running into the realm of "how skilled are animators". Because you're right about one hit vs two hits, but it could also be a two hit attack as well. I'm sure it's theoretically possible to make a cape attack animation that hits in the same range at the same speed and looks good, but I am not an animator and definitely not someone who could even begin to theorize how it could be done. If it is impossible then I think Nair and only Nair reflecting projectiles would be just sort of a weird and random property.

 

[Quillion]

Honestly at that point I would question why to even bother with Warlock Punch and just give him a more useful dedicated reflector. I like Warlock Punch, I acknowledge that it's not a hugely practical move and it would be a net upgrade if he has a reflector or a projectile. If it's to stay I'd rather it leaned into it's identity and it's strength as what it is, more invincibility frames, more power, maybe an option to cancel it. Give it a tap variation and it will lose its identity entirely. The hold variation would become trivia as the tap variation becomes what the attack is, especially if it can reflect projectiles. At that point a proper reflector would just be better.

So the tap variation is a weak combo starter, can reflect projectiles, is quick, but has no invincibility frames.

The hold variation is purely a kill move, can't reflect projectiles, is slow, but has invincibility and/or flinch armor.

The uniting identity factor is that they are both backhand melee strikes. Why be such a purist about Warlock Punch as it is now?

 

[Jotari]

So the tap variation is a weak combo starter, can reflect projectiles, is quick, but has no invincibility frames.

The hold variation is purely a kill move, can't reflect projectiles, is slow, but has invincibility and/or flinch armor.

The uniting identity factor is that they are both backhand melee strikes. Why be such a purist about Warlock Punch as it is now?

Because no one would ever use the punch variant of the tap variant exists.

 

[Quillion]

Because no one would ever use the punch variant of the tap variant exists.

No one uses Warlock Punch except for situations of extreme disrespect anyway, so it really wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

[Jotari]

No one uses Warlock Punch except for situations of extreme disrespect anyway, so it really wouldn't make much of a difference.

Well then we should just replace it with a proper reflector and not some kind of psudeo backhand punch reflector you need to time.

By the way, I also made a similar thread to this for Zelda's new game, if anyone has any ideas there.

New abilities introduced in Echoes of Wisdom

So, we got a new Zelda game featuring Zelda as an actual playable character. Which means, discounting stuff Nintendo doesn't want to acknowledge like CD-I games and, to a lesser extent Hyrule Warriors, we have some actual sources for moves for Zelda. Because Zelda as she is now takes virtually...

smashboards.com

 

[Quillion]

Well then we should just replace it with a proper reflector and not some kind of psudeo backhand punch reflector you need to time.

It would be both a proper reflector AND a disrespect slow kill move at the same time.

Why should a move that is generally agreed to be fun, but impractical functionally be held to your rigid idea of what it should be?

 

[Jotari]

It would be both a proper reflector AND a disrespect slow kill move at the same time.

Why should a move that is generally agreed to be fun, but impractical functionally be held to your rigid idea of what it should be?

Idea is fun because it's impractical. If you give it a practical version then it just becomes that practical move. And if his neutral special is to be changed to a practical attack then might as well make it an actual dedicated move for that ability (in this case reflection, but that also goes for projectiles or any other things he could do). I think a half measure would please no one.

 

[Quillion]

Idea is fun because it's impractical. If you give it a practical version then it just becomes that practical move. And if his neutral special is to be changed to a practical attack then might as well make it an actual dedicated move for that ability (in this case reflection, but that also goes for projectiles or any other things he could do). I think a half measure would please no one.

It's a full measure on both ends; what makes it a half measure?

 

[Jotari]

It's a full measure on both ends; what makes it a half measure?

A reflector you need to tome with a punch is not going to be a good reflector. Nor is an attack with a radically different tap and hold variation. If I want to use a defensive move like that I don't want to worry about accidentally tapping or holding. I want to reliably reflect things.

 

[Perkilator]

After thinking about it a bit more, I decided to rework my Ganondorf overhaul and make it more of a modernized version of his existing moveset.

Spoiler: Ganondorf rework

Intro: Ganondorf appears from a cyclone of Gloom and slowly stands up before unsheathing his sword.

Stance/Idle 1: Ganondorf stands tall with a sword in his right hand.
Idle 2: Ganondorf beckons the opponent with a single arm motion.
Idle 3: Ganondorf slightly moves his head from side to side and cracks his neck.

Notable Palette Swaps

1. Tears of the Kingdom design (default)
2. Wind Waker Ganondorf (orange)
3. Violet
4. Classic Ganon (blue)
5. Rauru (green / white)
6. Ghirahim (red / white)
7. Twilight Princess Ganondorf (gray)
8. Demon King Ganondorf (special costume)

Walk: Ganondorf walks menacingly with his sword in hand.
Dash: Ganondorf rushes forward with his sword in hand.
Damage: Ganondorf’s head recoils slightly, but the rest of his body barely even flinches.
Jump: His jump from the previous games.
Crouch: Ganondorf kneels and places his open hand on the ground.

Fighter Ability: Gloom
Ganondorf’s attacks inflict the opponent with Gloom, which deals continuous damage for a set period of time. Gloom has three levels depending on how much damage Ganondorf has sustained.

• Lv. 1 (0%-49%): Gloom inflicts 1% every 2 seconds
• Lv. 2 (50%-99%): Gloom inflicts 2% every second
• Lv. 3 (100% onward): Gloom inflicts 3% every half a second
• Attacks that inflict Gloom are highlighted like this

Normal Attacks
Jab: A left-handed palm thrust that discharges electricity.
Forward+A: A forceful front kick.
Up+A: A forceful upwards kick.
Down+A: Crouch Stab; Ganondorf stabs along the ground.
Dash Attack: A dashing downward slash.
Edge Attack: Ganondorf slashes downward as he climbs back up.
Get-Up Attack: Ganondorf slashes on both sides of himself.

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Ganondorf horizontally slashes around himself with his sword.
Air Forward+A: A left-handed overhand that spikes at the sweetspot.
Air Back + A: A horizontal sword slash that turns Ganondorf around.
Air Up+A: An upward arcing sword slash.
Air Down+A: An electrified double foot stomp that spikes at the sweetspot.

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: A lunging, two-handed downward club swing that emits a shockwave in front of Ganondorf.
Up+A: An overhead 180° arcing club swing.
Down+A: Ganondorf charges Gloom into his club and stabs the ground, which erupts a shockwave of Gloom.

Grab Game
Grab: Flame Choke; Ganondorf reaches out with his Gloom-infused hand.
Pummel: Ganondorf squeezes the opponent.
Forwards+Throw: Ganondorf blasts the opponent with a pulse of Gloom that drops them onto the ground.
Back+Throw: Ganondorf throws the opponent behind himself and hits them with a sidekick.
Up+Throw: Flame Wave; Ganondorf blasts the opponent high into the air.
Down+Throw: Volcano Kick; Ganondorf grabs the opponent with his foot before following up with an explosive, Gloom-enveloped axe kick.

Special Moves
B : Warlock Spear; Ganondorf charges Gloom into his spear and then rushes forward with a powerful thrust. Ganondorf has super armor for the entirety of the charge, and the tip of his spear deals the most damage right as the attack initiates. Tilting the control stick in the opposite direction allows Ganondorf to deal even more damage at the cost of traveling slightly less distance.
B + ←→ : Gerudo Dragon; Ganondorf lunges forward with his Gloom-infused sword and performs an uppercut slash. The aerial version has Ganondorf grab onto the opponent and descend in order to chokeslam them downward, infusing them with Gloom if they hit the ground.
B + ↑ : Dark Dive; Ganondorf leaps upward to grab an opponent. If the grab connects, Ganondorf infuses the grabbed opponent with Gloom before launching them with an explosion of Gloom. Regardless if the grab succeeds or fails, Ganondorf can follow up with a rising Gloom slash by pressing B again, but this sends him into freefall.
B + ↓ : Wizard’s Dropkick; Ganondorf jumps low into the air before performing a downward flying kick infused with Gloom.

Final Smash: Demon Dragon; Ganondorf uses his Secret Stone to transform into a shadowy, dragon-like figure that roars before charging forward. Anyone caught in his path is inflicted with Lv. 3 Gloom regardless of Ganondorf’s damage.

Taunts
Up: “Enjoy these final moments.” Ganondorf infuses his open hand in Gloom before clenching it.
Side: “Fall!” Ganondorf extends his open arm outward, with his palm expelling Gloom.
Down: “I’ve barely gotten started.” Ganondorf infuses his open hand with Gloom and strokes his blade with it.

Winposes
1: Ganondorf laughs like a madman as a flame of Gloom alights in his open hand.
2: “You witness a king’s revival.” Ganondorf unsheathes his sword and points it toward the camera.
3: “That was all you could do?” Ganondorf spins his club upward before thrusting it into the ground.

Applause: Ganondorf clenches his open fist, which emits Gloom.
Icon: Triforce
Boxing Ring Title: Great King of Evil
Star K.O.: “Rrrrraaaugh…!”
Victory Music: A snippet of Ganon’s theme
Kirby Hat: Ganondorf’s hair