Riposte__
Smash Apprentice
Why exactly is Luigi so far down as compared to Mario?
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New tier list? UPDATED TIER LIST
- Thread starter leekslap
- Start date
Saltsizzle
Smash Journeyman
Worse fireballs, floaty, very slow air speed, high short hop, terrible dash attack, slightly worse recovery than Mario
Sedda
Smash Champion
basically the things that saltsizzle mention add up to luigi being very bad to approach with.
his neutral is basically capitalizing on bad approaches by the opponent entirely without luigi really being able to get anything started.
his floatiness + slow airspeed + high short hop making him a real drag
Riposte__
Smash Apprentice
Cant he combo into ub? shouldn't that count for something?
Sedda
Smash Champion
sure, and it does count for something, but it doesnt matter much if he can't actually get anything started.
falcon has some easy combos with his u air into up b or spike or nair, but that's not the sole reason why he's high on the tier list. ground and air speed are a huge deal and affect the neutral game greatly. most consider samus a better character than luigi and she has very little combos that are all situational, but you have to make a distinction between the neutral game and the punish game. combos doesnt always = better character.
luigi isnt exactly super versatile in his combos either, whereas some of the better characters have more options against more characters even just within the punish game.
THE_MAAFIA
Smash Ace
I'm gonna change luigi meta game, and I'm extremely confident about it
Riposte__
Smash Apprentice
Me too, and Link.
Mariokartmoney
Smash Rookie
OK. This thread really seems to have devolved into a discussion on the low tiers so I'll add my two cents in here. I think DK belongs in the bottom tier. He's big, he's heavy, he's (relatively) slow, and his common finishers are awkward to land aside from up-b (which leaves him vulnerable at low percents anyways). Plus, have you seen any breakout DK's at tournaments? I certainly haven't. I'm just thinking that he should move into bottom tier until someone unlocks his true potential.
Dk is best character sorry
Mariokartmoney
Smash Rookie
You're absolutely right. I'm sorry I have no idea what I was thinking.
crazy side a
Mariokartmoney
Smash Rookie
Just because he has one good move (I can't tell if you're talking about his f-tilt or f-smash here if the latter then yeah I guess if you combo into it, if the former then yeah it's pretty good for spacing and damage but not crazy like you say) doesn't make a character good. If that was the case I think Luigi would be about 8 places higher on the tier list and Falcon would probably be ranked 1 or 2.
you're pretty stupid
DK's side a is the worst move in the whole game probably
f tilt is slow and ****
F smash is the same case
please go back to melee or smash4
and the best character is pikachu TY
Mariokartmoney
Smash Rookie
Wow. Such a welcoming member of the 64 community. I'm sorry I don't know the ins and outs of a character I don't even play in a game I don't main. And I never said Falcon was the best, I'm just saying that if you had a Rat using only his best move against a Falcon using only uair Falcon would win every time.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
dont worry about kahnu he's just a ****ty memelord 
D
Deleted member
Guest
any tips on getting in better position to consistently/effectively uptilt with kirby? having some trouble. :/
BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
Coming from a Falcon main, if you have your back turned to me and you're just barely under either side platform on DL, then I'm going to have a really hard time approaching. I wouldn't stand still if I were you though. Just learn the key entry points that your opponent can approach from and cover those spots. Never be more than 1 pivot away from prime uptilt positioning. Also, play around with jumping onto the side platforms too so that you can quickly uptilt from there. Your mere stage presence on the side platform will threaten the opponent with an aerial approach too.
D
Deleted member
Guest
very detailed and helpful thanx! :D
I honestly think Samus should be the worst in the game undeniably. I mean, pretty much all she has is spacing 4/5 of her aerials and sometimes a standard special. Her combo game is quite limited. She's almost like a brawl character: incredibly floaty, terrible combos, mainly based around spacing moves, above-par recovery.
Link has not-as-limited combos (can string a few Utilts into an aerial) and has superior projectiles.
Ness has some pretty great combos (hence his initial 3rd place ranking on the tier liat) but probably the worst recovery in the game by way of punishing.
Luigi has traits that Mario has which help out.
Even watching Nintendude play as her doesn't really help her cause
Edit: just remembered that she has Up-B OOS. I guess that's a counterpoint to my argument...
Link has not-as-limited combos (can string a few Utilts into an aerial) and has superior projectiles.
Ness has some pretty great combos (hence his initial 3rd place ranking on the tier liat) but probably the worst recovery in the game by way of punishing.
Luigi has traits that Mario has which help out.
Even watching Nintendude play as her doesn't really help her cause
Edit: just remembered that she has Up-B OOS. I guess that's a counterpoint to my argument...
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dahuterschuter
Smash Journeyman
We're kind of in need of a re-evaluated tier list, considering how old the current model is. I hope the people who make these things are on it.
BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
First of all, we have to evaluate a tier list in a Dreamland-only ruleset. I think you're jumping the gun a bit by putting Samus at an "undeniable" last place. Sure, her combo game is limited but her control of space is decent and she's difficult to combo. Having dair as a spike significantly helps her edgeguard game which is a large part of the DL only ruleset.
Link has a good neutral and decent combos on DL but his poor recovery makes his viability look bad. One back-throw offstage at ~30-40% and he's finished.
As for recovery, Ness isn't the easiest to punish. Link and Falcon are easier to punish by a good margin.
Luigi actually has good match ups with Puff and Falcon so that's nice. It sucks that his neutral game is so rough.
ValiantNorth
Matrix Speedruns
Yeah I agree his recovery leaves a lot to be desired on DL.
It's unfortunate but It's true..
D
Deleted member
Guest
what about kirby? ^.^
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BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
Kirby should be second. The only reason I could see him being third is Falcon has a slightly better MU against Pika than Kirby does. But... Kirby destroys Falcon on DL and he has good MUs all around. Kirby's recovery is also way better than most of the other characters.
The landing lag on pk thunder 2 is probably like 30 frames, it take way too long to swing that pk ball around to get it to pkt2, and you can just get hit by the ball on purpose to gimp Ness. His recovery is quite possibly worse than link's
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tehz
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2010
- Messages
- 188
In no way, shape, or form is Ness' recovery worse than Link's. When Link is back-thrown, the opponent probably doesn't even have to grab the edge. At least Ness' recovery forces the opponent to edgeguard him.
Ness can mix his recovery up; Link can't
Ness can mix his recovery up; Link can't
BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
Ness' recovery isn't as bad as Falcon's either. Falcon's recovery doesn't take much in the way of reads to gimp. It's easy to avoid his grab box on up-b and throwing out an aerial to protect yourself is rarely helpful at mid-range recovery.
Saltsizzle
Smash Journeyman
I think it can be argued that it's easy to be caught by the grab hitbox. Also, Falcon has the ability to go high or low, less ending lag on the move, and is way easier to sweetspot than Ness. Both are below average but arguing Ness' recovery is better than Falcon's is a highly debatable topic.
BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
Correct me if I'm wrong: Falcon doesn't have a sweetspot up-b
Falcon's up-b grab box is easy to avoid. Only looking at an offstage edguard: Link has bair/nair. Kirby has nair/dair/bair. Fox has bair/fair. Yoshi has fair/bair. Puff has nair/dair. Pika has uair/nair/dair. DK has bair. Mario/Luigi have dair/fair/bair/fireballs. Falcon has bair/dair/shfair. Samus has dair/fair/bair. Ness has upb/dair/bair.
All of these moves cover well enough to avoid the grab box and it doesn't even take the best placement either. Plus, you only need to hit with a weak hitbox 9times/10.
Even worse, most of the cast has a d-tilt that covers the ledge very very well and the ones who don't have a good d-tlit, Fox/Puff/Link/Ness, all have sufficient means of edgeguarding Falcon regardless.
Edgeguarding Ness is trickier sometimes because you have to grab the ledge at the right time to cover the sweet spot option and his up-b after being launched has invincibility for 9 frames. Usually, Ness has more than 2 options for recovery. This makes it a bit harder to cover every option. I understand that Ness has bad recovery options when he's significantly below the stage but looking at him level or above the stage, he has more options than Falcon.
THE FOLLOWING SECTION ASSUMES THIS ISN'T A TRASHY KAILLERA NESS.
Ness slightly above the stage has
1. high angle up to avoid follow up and mix up where he's going to land from high up
2. sweetspot
3. land on stage with low landing lag (i don't remember how many frames but it's very few)
4. risk going straight at the opponent
Short Range Recovery:
- Falcon has several options and wins short range recovery
- Ness has options but they aren't as good as Falcon's
Mid Range Recovery:
- Falcon has 2 options, high and low. fast fall mix up
--- occasional 3rd option is to recover to a platform but that's usually snuffed out
- Ness has several options. can recover to ledge with jump and occasionally he can down-b ledgegrab (risky). can fade out and have several up-b options available because he's above the level of the stage
--- fading back has to be read in order to hit Ness before he finishes up-b. it's a risky punish otherwise
Long Range Recovery:
- Falcon barely makes it back with Falcon punch and is ledgehogged or down tilted or whatever else
--- can make it back if there's opponent error
- Ness has 2 options, recover to ledge with up-b or up-b above ledge to platform/stage
--- occasional option to recover slightly high and drop down to ledge but it's easily snuffed out
Very Long Range Recovery:
- Falcon can't make it back to stage or ledge
- Ness has the small chance to make it back but it relies on opponent's error
TL;DR some of this could be conjecture but I think Ness beats Falcon at recovering on DL, not by much but it's still better
Falcon's up-b grab box is easy to avoid. Only looking at an offstage edguard: Link has bair/nair. Kirby has nair/dair/bair. Fox has bair/fair. Yoshi has fair/bair. Puff has nair/dair. Pika has uair/nair/dair. DK has bair. Mario/Luigi have dair/fair/bair/fireballs. Falcon has bair/dair/shfair. Samus has dair/fair/bair. Ness has upb/dair/bair.
All of these moves cover well enough to avoid the grab box and it doesn't even take the best placement either. Plus, you only need to hit with a weak hitbox 9times/10.
Even worse, most of the cast has a d-tilt that covers the ledge very very well and the ones who don't have a good d-tlit, Fox/Puff/Link/Ness, all have sufficient means of edgeguarding Falcon regardless.
Edgeguarding Ness is trickier sometimes because you have to grab the ledge at the right time to cover the sweet spot option and his up-b after being launched has invincibility for 9 frames. Usually, Ness has more than 2 options for recovery. This makes it a bit harder to cover every option. I understand that Ness has bad recovery options when he's significantly below the stage but looking at him level or above the stage, he has more options than Falcon.
THE FOLLOWING SECTION ASSUMES THIS ISN'T A TRASHY KAILLERA NESS.
Ness slightly above the stage has
1. high angle up to avoid follow up and mix up where he's going to land from high up
2. sweetspot
3. land on stage with low landing lag (i don't remember how many frames but it's very few)
4. risk going straight at the opponent
Short Range Recovery:
- Falcon has several options and wins short range recovery
- Ness has options but they aren't as good as Falcon's
Mid Range Recovery:
- Falcon has 2 options, high and low. fast fall mix up
--- occasional 3rd option is to recover to a platform but that's usually snuffed out
- Ness has several options. can recover to ledge with jump and occasionally he can down-b ledgegrab (risky). can fade out and have several up-b options available because he's above the level of the stage
--- fading back has to be read in order to hit Ness before he finishes up-b. it's a risky punish otherwise
Long Range Recovery:
- Falcon barely makes it back with Falcon punch and is ledgehogged or down tilted or whatever else
--- can make it back if there's opponent error
- Ness has 2 options, recover to ledge with up-b or up-b above ledge to platform/stage
--- occasional option to recover slightly high and drop down to ledge but it's easily snuffed out
Very Long Range Recovery:
- Falcon can't make it back to stage or ledge
- Ness has the small chance to make it back but it relies on opponent's error
TL;DR some of this could be conjecture but I think Ness beats Falcon at recovering on DL, not by much but it's still better
Mariokartmoney
Smash Rookie
At short range won't Ness' double jump alone get him back on stage or at least on the ledge?
I agree, it's very subjective, but I think Ness wins the recovery game in terms of distance and Falcon wins in terms of safety.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I know this is a newb question, but what do the terms DL, nair, bair, shfair, fair, mean? Also, where can I get my head around hit boxes and their significance?
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Mariokartmoney
Smash Rookie
DL- The DreamLand stage
nair- a neutral aerial attack(pressing a in the air without pressing a direction on the control stick)
bair- a back aerial attack(pressing the opposite direction you're facing on the control stick and pressing a in the air)
sh- a short hop or a low jump(done by quickly tapping up on the control stick or quickly tapping one of the c buttons)
fair- a forward aerial attack(pressing forward and a while in the air)
For hitboxes, I'd recommend either checking YouTube or hacking into debug mode yourself and enabling them.
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BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
http://framedisplay.supersmashbros64.com/webfd/framedisplay.html
^this is nice for hitbox visuals
http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-technical-frame-data.325142/
^this might answer any other questions that you may have. If not, ask us.
I don't particularly like the ssb wiki. It's lacking to say the least.
ValiantNorth
Matrix Speedruns
I've been looking for this, too lazy to search - glad it came up though!
I agree with you on that too - I find just drudging through threads is the best way to find any info about anything... Long process but worth it if you find what you need.
I think we know too little about Smash 4 to declare it the most balanced, but I would say that 64 is THE most balanced. However, PM I would imagine is on its way to become just as balanced.
PM is not balanced and is on the road to becoming the worst balanced game. The mods cater to the stupid players who say, anything that they deem, ''OP'' is made even less powerfull. Hell, I could say Mewtwo is too weak an they'd buff him more.
Smash 4 has Diddy Kong and some characters are just NOT viable.
Yeah, but the fact that PM can at least be patched and is run by a tourney-based community at least gives it the possibility of one day being balanced. We have no hope with that in Smash 4, as far as I know; Nintendo doesn't seem willing to patch any character based on what competitors say.
BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
Have you played 3.5? It's pretty good. I don't think PM will ever be "balanced" in the sense that every character does well vs every character. But I could see it be balanced in the sense that every character has equal amounts of good and bad MUs. I don't know how great that will be or what the meta will evolve into but we'll have to wait and see.
OT: We need to start talking about specific MUs if this tier list is going to go anywhere in the next year.
Agony
Smash Rookie
S. Top Tier : 
A1. High Tier (Upper Half):
A2. High Tier (Lower Half):
B. Mid Tier:
C1. Low Tier (Upper Half):
C2. Low Tier (Lower Half):
D. Bottom Tier:
tl;dr:>>>>>>>>>>
amazing priority, combos, spacing, aerial game, gimp capability and recovery. Minor flaws: his projectile and his fair aren't that good (but at least they serve some niche purpose in his gameplay) and despite being lightweight, he's comboable.
A1. High Tier (Upper Half):
Great characters. Both are stage bullies with outstanding spacing, priority and combos. Kirby has a "bad" pika matchup and falcon has poor options while recovering, that's why they are lower than pika. On a sidenote, both characters are imho easier to pick up.
A2. High Tier (Lower Half):
Great characters that have complex/hard-to-master mechanics. Fox also suffers DL-Only metagame more than other high tiers because of his bad recovery and space-ish-heavy gameplay: however he can adapt and play aggressively with comboes and gimps (while Link, the other projectile-spammer, still heavily needs his boomerang for spacing). Speaking about Yoshi, he lacks a good grab, requires superior input accuracy and therefore one mistake can cost you huge %'s against other top tiers: on the upside, though, his damage output and pressure are just so good.
B. Mid Tier:
They are decent. Mario is an overall balanced character and jiggz has some flaws (approaching in certain matchups, mainly) but her incredible comboing and good recovery make up for that. However, if you pick every single aspect of those two characters' gameplay, there is at least one high tier that does that thing better than them.
C1. Low Tier (Upper Half):
DK has epic low-% kills on heavyweight characters with bad recoveries (fox, link, falcon, ness, and himself) and one of the best grabs in the game (which is such an important factor in ssb64) but he's often outspaced and suffers combos worse than the rest of the cast because of his huge hurtbox and fast-but-not-too-fast-falling. Samus has pretty decent aerial game and recovery (that's why she performs better against high tiers compared to link, ness and luigi) but her inability to combo and to grab forces her to stay on her toes all the game in order to apply pressure. Overall, i don't think those two characters are bad, but their options on each aspect of the game are limited (e.g. samus spacing bair 90% of the time), making them kind of One-Trick-Ponies.
C2. Low Tier (Lower Half):
Those characters have a versatile movesets and good pressure/combo options if they get an opener. Both also possess very high priority on their aerials and tilts. However, they are both hard to master and lack of decent options for recovering offstage. This basically means that they are very likey to lose a stock whenever thrown offstage. Link is somewhat slow and hasn't got a reliable grab: and while yoshi proves that you can be a rushdown character without a grab, this isn't clearly the case with Link. He is a projectile-heavy character with bad recovery, and he would love more options for when the opponent is being *in-his-face* (other than shdair or backwards-shfair or utilt). Ness also has the worst range in the game which makes it difficult for him to approach most characters and combo them.
Luigi's upsides are a pretty good recovery (maybe top3 in the game), floatyness which prevents him to get comboed too hard, and good juggling-combo ability. Other than that, i think he has got very little to stand his ground. Notably, he has the worst short-hop in the game, worst projectile in the game, worst overall moveset-priority in the game, worst dash attack in the game and really bad speed. This results on him not being able to constantly land openers on many higher tied characters and having to wait for them to make a mistake: i can't honestly think of a matchup where Weegee has the upper hand maybe except a bit on Puff. On a sidenote for starters, his main advanced combo tool (sh-rising aerial-fastfall-aerial-zcancel) is pretty hard to learn, at least it was for me.
tl;dr:
>>>>>>>>>>
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