Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He mentioned Strider as one of the possible names for his future ninja organization. He never said that's the name he will use.

I mean, if they're making a reference like that the only option they have other than picking that name (assuming they continue the story line at all) is going "Nope! That reference we were making wasn't actually what we're alluding to at all. Get prank'd!".

It'd be like if they showed a Mega Man like character design, had a character thinking about calling him Mega Man, and then randomly decides to do a 90 degree turn and call him...I dunno, Barry or something.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

No. It doesn't.

In SF5 Zeku is considering forming a new ninja organization. And has a scene of him considering several possible names for them.

But he doesn't actually create the organization, or decide on a name. And he never calls himself Strider.

So yes, implied.

Except those AREN'T those characters. It's a costume party where the guests are dressed like Capcom characters.

Unless you think Captain Commando and Strider somehow time traveled from the distant future to attend Ken's party.

One of the character guides in SF5 even confirms that Captain Commando is a video game in the SF universe.

It's actually confirmed Zeku is directly connected to Strider, albeit in a guide.

This is barely legible, though the only image of this page that exists online, but you can see here that the concept behind Zeku is that he's the first generation Strider, while the Strider from the 1989 game is the third generation. Other material suggests the Strider from the 2014 game might be a clone of the 1989 one, it's pretty neat

 

[DarthEnderX]

I was under the impression that Captain Commando was set in the future of Final Fight, though?

I believe that IS the case. As it takes place in Metro City.

But if it's also video game in the SF universe, then the ones who created it could have just set the game in a future version of a city from their own world. The way we might set a video game in, like, Neo Tokyo.

This is barely legible, though the only image of this page that exists online, but you can see here that the concept behind Zeku is that he's the first generation Strider, while the Strider from the 1989 game is the third generation. Other material suggests the Strider from the 2014 game might be a clone of the 1989 one, it's pretty neat

That's an explanation of the designer's intent and thought process. But as far as the games are concerned, it's not canon...yet.

I was going to say that Darkstalkers wouldn't quite fit since supernatural monsters don't really seem to exist, but then I remembered Necalli and Oni...

FWIW, Oni isn't canon. He's a "what if" imagining of an Akuma completely consumed by the SnH.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I mean, if they're making a reference like that the only option they have other than picking that name (assuming they continue the story line at all) is going "Nope! That reference we were making wasn't actually what we're alluding to at all. Get prank'd!".

It'd be like if they showed a Mega Man like character design, had a character thinking about calling him Mega Man, and then randomly decides to do a 90 degree turn and call him...I dunno, Barry or something.

That's the way references are sometimes, though. They're thrown in there more as a "You get it?" kind of way and not as something to be taken too seriously.

Dan's ending in MSH vs SF, for example, implied that Akuma was his father. But of course, Akuma is not REALLY his father because that ending. much like Dan himself, is simply just a parody of Ryo Sakazaki and his ending from the first Art of Fighting game. It's nothing deep.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's the way references are sometimes, though. They're thrown in there more as a "You get it?" kind of way and not as something to be taken too seriously.

Dan's ending in MSH vs SF, for example, implied that Akuma was his father. But of course, Akuma is not REALLY his father because that ending. much like Dan himself, is simply just a parody of Ryo and his own ending from the first Art of Fighting game. It's nothing deep.

There's a big difference between an ending for a joke character in a very much non-cannon game and the entire direction of a fighter in a game that is cannon. I'd say it'd be more likely for Zeku to never appear again so the plot point his reference would bring up wouldn't ever be relevant enough to cause problems than it would be for them to change where the character is headed.

FWIW, Oni isn't canon. He's a "what if" imagining of an Akuma completely consumed by the SnH.

Fair enough. Necalli is still very much a supernatural entity though.

Though that Ken stage probably does confirm that Darkstalkers is a canonically fictional product in Street Fighter, which would make it weird if they started crossing over anyway.

And thinking about this too far, that makes it a fictional fictional product in the Mega Man universe. lol

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I mean, if they're making a reference like that the only option they have other than picking that name (assuming they continue the story line at all) is going "Nope! That reference we were making wasn't actually what we're alluding to at all. Get prank'd!".

It'd be like if they showed a Mega Man like character design, had a character thinking about calling him Mega Man, and then randomly decides to do a 90 degree turn and call him...I dunno, Barry or something.

The man went through his own super hero origin story and were acting like it didn't happen lol

 

[HyperSomari64]

And thinking about this too far, that makes it a fictional fictional product in the Mega Man universe. lol

Now I want to imagine this, but "Darkstalkers → Street Fighter → Mega Man → Back to Darkstalkers".

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Now I want to imagine this, but "Darkstalkers → Street Fighter → Mega Man → Back to Darkstalkers".

This gag kinda fits Darkstalkers since it's supposed to be very cartoony.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Necalli is still very much a supernatural entity though.

He is, unfortunately. Just a really ****ty character concept.

The man went through his own super hero origin story and were acting like it didn't happen lol

The difference between implied and confirmed matters. Especially when you're using it to determine whether two franchises take place in the same universe or not.

 

[HyperSomari64]

The man went through his own super hero origin story and were acting like it didn't happen lol

That's the wrong #FE character, Touma is the one that turns into a Super Hero.
In a TV show.

 

[Wonder Smash]

There's a big difference between an ending for a joke character in a very much non-cannon game and the entire direction of a fighter in a game that is cannon. I'd say it'd be more likely for Zeku to never appear again so the plot point his reference would bring up wouldn't ever be relevant enough to cause problems than it would be for them to change where the character is headed.

Dan is an SNK parody no matter what game he's in, so it's not really all that different. The point is, it's not unusual for references that fit the theme of a character.

In this case, it's just that people are focusing on too much on Zeku's Strider look and take him mentioning the name "Strider" as a straight up connection between the series when in reality, Zeku just simply mentioned "Strider" as just one of the possible names for a ninja organization that doesn't exist so far.

 

[Perkilator]

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That’s what I’ve been saying for months!

 

[fogbadge]

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That’s what I’ve been saying for months!

I dunno. Considering plenty have complained about SSE and WOL being repetitive a roguelike is probably not the best idea

 

[Opossum]

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That’s what I’ve been saying for months!

Begging the Smash fanbase to learn what words mean because Multiversus's rift mode is by no means a roguelike.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Begging the Smash fanbase to learn what words mean because Multiversus's rift mode is by no means a roguelike.

Next you'll want them to learn how to be hygienic.

 

[ninjahmos]

I may or may not have said this before, and I doubt they'd actually do it, but if Snake makes it into the next Smash game, I'm hoping they not only add more music from the Metal Gear series, but maybe some music from Snatcher and Policenauts.

 

[Gengar84]

He is, unfortunately. Just a really ****ty character concept.

But a really cool visual design so that kind of makes up for it for me. He’s right up there with Vega for coolest looking Street Fighter character.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I thought it was funny how when Splatoon 3 Side Order was announced, the Nintendo Direct went out of its way to specifically not use the term "roguelike". It reminds me of when BOTW was revealed at E3 2014 and Aonuma refused to say the words "open world".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

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That’s what I’ve been saying for months!

The less single player modes like Multiversus rift modes the better.

 

[Ivander]

The less single player modes like Multiversus rift modes the better.

Some of the stuff from the Rifts was good. The really big issue was that some of the battles in the higher difficulties were just unbearably and brutally difficult, with a couple being very luck-based. But the battles that weren't very difficult and nowhere near luck-based, they were fun. Still think they should use the Dexter Robot boss battle as a base for Boss fights, since that one was legitimately fun to do on the higher difficulties.

 

[Gorgonzales]

It just occurred to me that none of the Animal Crossing stages change seasons depending on the console's clock. If the Smash team is gonna be adamant about bringing Smashville and T&C back as the tame legal stages, at least take an opportunity to make them more visually interesting.

I also hope that if they bring back Small/Big Battlefield they have minor aesthetic differences. e.g. Small gets cherry blossom trees, Big takes place during autumn, you get the picture. I'm talking basically palette swaps but for stages. Little things that shouldn't take too much time but helps them stand out from one another a little more.

 

[ninjahmos]

I still think Dante has a shot for the next Smash game. I mean, they already made him a Mii Costume.

But I also kinda wanna see Arthur in Smash too.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In a surprising move, the next SSB single player campaign is largely based around battling busty anthropomorphic bats, thus making it the first Smash Bros Rougelike.

 

[dream1ng]

I still think Dante has a shot for the next Smash game. I mean, they already made him a Mii Costume.

But I also kinda wanna see Arthur in Smash too.

Characters like Arthur, who, let's be real, have minute chances next to what else Capcom has to offer, makes me hope they go further with the concept of third-party ATs. There's sooooo much untapped potential there for characters who can't quite make fighter.

I also hope there's less bellyaching about AT deconfirmations. I get being disappointed - trust me there were a good handful of characters I would've liked to see playable who became ATs, but the "better nothing than AT" logic is always just so childish to me.

But I agree Dante has a shot. The Capcom stable is loaded, but I think he still has a fair shot. I think Nintendo is going to want Monster Hunter first and foremost, but if they can't come to an agreement with that team, Dante's relatively strong popularity worldwide is a major asset not all candidates have.

Though now there's the wrinkle of the ESRB thing, which might make MH or Chun-Li just more appealing options.

I thought it was funny how when Splatoon 3 Side Order was announced, the Nintendo Direct went out of its way to specifically not use the term "roguelike". It reminds me of when BOTW was revealed at E3 2014 and Aonuma refused to say the words "open world".

Nintendo doesn't copy. They don't do clones, they do "echoes". Lol

 

[Guynamednelson]

but the "better nothing than AT" logic is always just so childish to me.

You're more likely to have people vocally supporting a small character's inclusion as a playable character if they have nothing. ATs kill that harder than any character's obscurity. If too many people are "grateful they have anything at all", we wouldn't even have half of the newcomers base Ultimate added.

 

[dream1ng]

You're more likely to have people vocally supporting a small character's inclusion as a playable character if they have nothing. ATs kill that harder than any character's obscurity.

You're more likely to have people vocally supporting a big character's inclusion if they don't have anything either, because they're not deconfirmed at that point. Once a character is deconfirmed the question of their support is a bit late, big or small.

Every AT is going to be hampered by the fact that none of been promoted within the same game, and that is going to loom over them and cast doubt on their subsequent chances until that cycle breaks.

"Better nothing than AT" is usually a reaction after the deconfirmation of salty fans who somehow feel like an AT is a slight against them, as if they were owed more. It's juvenile.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

For some it also comes down to the (relative) view on how practical they are as an AT vs an actual fighter. A playable Andross is an interesting concept, but most regarded his inclusion as an assist trophy as fairly logical given the role he's had in Star Fox.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

As someone who has seen characters I want be ATs several times over, I'd be happy to see someone like Amaterasu (tying back to Capcom discussion above) as one if she's not a fighter if just the fact it means she's acknowledged.

 

[Guynamednelson]

"Better nothing than AT" is usually a reaction after the deconfirmation of salty fans who somehow feel like an AT is a slight against them, as if they were owed more. It's juvenile.

Juvenile or not, if we were all forced to be grateful we had anything at all, SSBU shouldn't have had half of the base game newcomers it got. Most of them were fan requests from people upset that certain characters were only NPCs.

 

[dream1ng]

If too many people are "grateful they have anything at all", we wouldn't even have half of the newcomers base Ultimate added.

That implies you can either be grateful and no longer request a character in the future or be ungrateful you got something and keep pushing. That those options are mutually exclusive. That's not how it works; there are more options. You can accept you got less than a fighter and still continue to push for them going forward, knowing future games will give them another chance.

 

[Opossum]

You're more likely to have people vocally supporting a big character's inclusion if they don't have anything either, because they're not deconfirmed at that point. Once a character is deconfirmed the question of their support is a bit late, big or small.

That right there is the problem. Yeah, the obnoxious "nothing over being an Assist" attitude is terrible, but so is this.

There's no such thing as "too late" as long as you don't LET it be too late, even if it means for the next game. You'd think people would've gotten the memo after the ballot, but apparently not.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That implies you can either be grateful and no longer request a character in the future or be ungrateful you got something and keep pushing. That those options are mutually exclusive.

It might as well be that way, because there barely is anyone in this community who takes a third option, including you. I really, really doubt most Ridley votes on the ballot listed "The Pyrosphere boss fight was cool, but playing as Ridley would be even cooler" as the reason why they wanted Ridley playable.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But a really cool visual design so that kind of makes up for it for me. He’s right up there with Vega for coolest looking Street Fighter character.

I...do not agree. I think the Aztec warrior thing is...okay. But his hair is REAL dumb.

I still think Dante has a shot for the next Smash game. I mean, they already made him a Mii Costume.

But I also kinda wanna see Arthur in Smash too.

Yes, and yes.

 

[dream1ng]

That right there is the problem. Yeah, the obnoxious "nothing over being an Assist" attitude is terrible, but so is this.

There's no such thing as "too late" as long as you don't LET it be too late, even if it means for the next game. You'd think people would've gotten the memo after the ballot, but apparently not.

From a theoretical standpoint you're correct, from a practical standpoint, it's going to take an AT getting promoted within the same game for that cycle to break, because too many people believe they're then off the table for that game.

 

[Opossum]

From a theoretical standpoint you're correct, from a practical standpoint, it's going to take an AT getting promoted within the same game for that cycle to break, because too many people believe they're then off the table for that game.

And the people who think that should, in turn, be publicly reminded that the ballot was a thing that happened. If people didn't vote for characters like Ridley or Chrom, they wouldn't have gotten into Ultimate, even if the pretense for the ballot was Smash 4. If pessimism is met with acceptance, nothing changes.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If pessimism is met with acceptance, nothing changes.

You're right!

Everyone IS Here Forever!

 

[dream1ng]

It might as well be that way, because there barely is anyone in this community who takes a third option, including you.

Including me? On my previous account I came up with the term #GoldenSunday, to still show people there was Isaac support. It was based on Smash 4's Monado Monday, which was for Shulk support.

And yet I fully accept Isaac got AT'd. It's unfortunate, but it's much better he got that than what happened in Smash 4. At no point will you find me acting like Isaac getting AT'd was some slap in the face. I'm happy GS got the amount of content it got, and yet I still hope for more.

Toxic as the fanbase can be, there are plenty of levelheaded fans who can take disappointments in stride and find motivation without acting like children and needing anger and spite to push them.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

For some it also comes down to the (relative) view on how practical they are as an AT vs an actual fighter. A playable Andross is an interesting concept, but most regarded his inclusion as an assist trophy as fairly logical given the role he's had in Star Fox.

I feel like some characters just work better as assist trophies rather than playable characters

 

[dream1ng]

And the people who think that should, in turn, be publicly reminded that the ballot was a thing that happened. If people didn't vote for characters like Ridley or Chrom, they wouldn't have gotten into Ultimate, even if the pretense for the ballot was Smash 4. If pessimism is met with acceptance, nothing changes.

Well, godspeed. I'd love for that to change. I'm not pessimistic that a character could be promoted from AT within the same game, I argued it could happen with spirits and it did - I'm pessimistic the fanbase will come to that consensus before it actually happens.

Let me know when we can alter what is realistic to expect from the fanbase after a character gets AT'd, and I will amend my statements on demand after a character finds themselves in that situation. Until then, like I said, every AT is going to be hampered by the fact that none have been promoted within the same game, and that is going to loom over them and cast doubt on their subsequent chances until that cycle breaks.

It's just an extension of wide subsets of the fanbase not believing something will happen until it does. You can tell the fanbase to support Eggman and Chun-Li and whomever, as we don't know we can't get unique second third-party reps, but until Sephiroth showed up, the lack of consensus was going to inhibit how popular a character like that could get.

Similar thing here. So publicly remind them all you like, I don't disagree. But I know the proof will be in the pudding, and until then there will be major contention over its possibility to manifest, with AT'd characters dramatically plunging in expectation and demand, at least until the next game.

 

[Garteam]

I actually like how assist trophies have slowly been transformed from abstract concepts and a manner to represent games that don’t easily support a fighter to instead being a consolation prize for popular characters that just couldn’t make the cut. The number of cool fighter ideas outnumbers the amount of characters that can realistically be in the game, so putting them in the role closest to being a fighter that isn’t actually a fighter is probably the best option.

I’m also not sure where this idea that a character being an assist trophy kills their support or dooms them to forever being locked into that role in the fanbase’s eyes comes from. Waluigi is a candidate for the most popular newcomer choice generally and a lot of that is because people want to see him break from his assist trophy status.

Where it kind of sucks being an assist trophy is that it seems to eliminate the possibility that same character could be DLC, but this has really only effected Spring Man thus far and the vast majority of assist trophies don’t seem to be the types of characters that Sakurai wants as DLC (third parties, promotional characters, and cut veterans).