Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Diddy Kong]

IntSys were okay with him suggesting Chrom as Ultimate's new base game FE fighter despite Awakening no longer being the latest FE, and the Pokemon that TPC likes to market aren't restricted to the latest generation.

Chrom is a different case. He's a Echo and had his model included in the game already via Robin's Final Smash. And Awakening is Awakening.

In the end we still got Byleth too.

Recency is the one deciding factor, especially with Fire Emblem, Pokemon and what not. Xenoblade will probably follow suit.

Yeah I want Lyn and Garchomp, but we'll likely end up with something else entirely.

 

[Borskaboska]

I've said this before, but my preferred set of pokemon newcomers are Suicune and Serperior. They've got unique abilities, lots of personality, and unconventional body types. I feel like, with so many pokemon to choose from, the focus should be picking ones that are unique or do something no one else can do, even if it means picking less than extremely popular choices. Something like Meoscarada that's just a humanoid magician character feels a bit redundant. Like, honestly I'd take even Sudowoodo over Meoscarada.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pokémon in general is extremely difficult to judge: is safe because duh. is safe because its easy to make and has been here forever. is gone. R.I.P. is kinda safe because it always makes the base roster project plan, but kinda not because it keeps being so low priority that it doesn't actually make the base roster. is safe because he's the series protagonist, and they only went Solozard because they couldn't do switching on the 3Ds. is safe because it's extremely popular, and has yet to miss a game as a result. is safe because its also super popular, and reps some of the newer gens. is kinda safe because it has become a staple in the competitive scene, and kinda not because everyone else hates him. Problem found: I've convinced myself that too many characters have good odds.

How about newcomers? Where are they coming from? Probably Pokémon Scarlet/Violet. Who are they picking? Well precedence says a starter, but circumstances are different, so it could be just about anything. The only thing I think it can't be is Koraidon/Miraidon since they'd have to add both, and they can't Echo each other because their body plans are too different.

I'd like to share your sentiments but I can't. Pokemon has a lot of characters, cuts are quite more likely in such case. The weakest links I find so far are in order: Pichu, Ivysaur, Squirtle and Jigglypuff. With Incineroar being a curious case on its own too. Maybe on a similar level to Jigglypuff. After all, outside of Ultimate and Melee, Jigglypuff has been considered for the chopping block often times now. But yeah like you said, this character is quite easy to create so it's its saving grace. I think she'll forever be included for this reason alone maybe.

Mewtwo and Lucario, whilst popular, aren't the most popular Smash characters perse. However with the outcry of Mewtwo to be included for Smash 4, I like to tell myself its safe. It should be. However both these characters need revamps ASAP so... that might boost their Smash popularity a lot.

The Trainer I feel is carried by Charizard. And they didn't quite feel the need to include Squirtle and Ivysaur as separate characters in 4 like they did with Zard. So... I dunno. The gimmick could easily translate to a new fighter. And have Charizard be solo again.

Anyway, the only truly safe Pokemon I feel are Pikachu, Charizard and Greninja.

 

[Idon]

See, if we went with ever

I've said this before, but my preferred set of pokemon newcomers are Suicune and Serperior. They've got unique abilities, lots of personality, and unconventional body types. I feel like, with so many pokemon to choose from, the focus should be picking ones that are unique or do something no one else can do, even if it means picking less than extremely popular choices. Something like Meoscarada that's just a humanoid magician character feels a bit redundant. Like, honestly I'd take even Sudowoodo over Meoscarada.

As much as it would be funny to have a sentient chandelier or a surfboarder made of gold coins, popularity is also a factor, not just the wackiest or most unique possible character.

At the end of the day, we still have a litany of swordsmen that people are clamoring for because the fact that 20 or so characters already use them because they're iconic as hell- weapon, body, or personality aside.

 

[ninjahmos]

You know which Pokémon looks pretty interesting?

Kingambit

A Dark/Steel-type Pokémon that kinda looks like a samurai. I think it'd make for an interesting moveset.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah the Eeveelutions cannot be Echoes of each other. Their various tail and ear appendages are already significant enough to influence hitboxes, and their movement/attack animations and stats would have to be very different in order for them to feel themselves.

We have to just put away this idea that Eevee isn't interesting enough on its own. Besides, if the crux of an argument against a character is accusing them of being boring, that usually isn't a very strong, objective argument, unless possibly there's some major issue like a question of feasibility. Eevee has an interesting body type to work with already and fits into the cute and playful fighter archetype in a way that not even Pikachu and Jigglypuff really do the same; and if you want to delve into the latent multielemental powers then that only helps expand the palette. While its evolutions are certainly extremely popular individually, Eevee is the mascot and the emblem that ties them all together while still being extremely popular and marketed in its own right. Not to mention using solo Eevee for everything but the FS resolves the issue of having to put too many resources or complications into the fighter, and also avoids having to play favorites with the evolutions while still giving all of them a way to be there in some form for one big super move.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

This is the issue I have with like every character in Ultimate except for like Pichu and Young Link (sorry guys, but you were missing for 17 years for a reason) lol

Every character pretty much has something going for them that makes me like "oooh, i dunno, i could see them sticking around".

This is why I don't bother predicting cuts because it will primarily boil down to either rights issues or time constraints making it impossible to bring everyone.

And neither of these factors are things we can reasonably predict.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

As much as it would be funny to have a sentient chandelier or a surfboarder made of gold coins, popularity is also a factor, not just the wackiest or most unique possible character.

As much as Gholdengo is heavily carried by its status as Pokémon #1000, I feel it should be pointed out how popular a Pokémon is does not have as strong a factor as people think.

Biggest example to give is Greninja, who while would become popular, wasn't even public knowledge or even had an actual name when Sakurai picked it well before X/Y dropped. It essentially was a complete nobody and even upon reveal for Smash it raised eyebrows since it hadn't yet become as big of a deal as it would soon enough.

And while Incineroar was known to the public by when Sakurai picked it, it had a divisive reception upon official reveal. Between Decidueye and itself, Decidueye had a warmer reception (and this carried over into Smash speculation with how it had an iron grip while Incineroar barely got traction until Vergeben), and its own first stage Rowlet was the clear winner in popularity overall. And that's not even getting into how popular Mimikyu got on reveal.
Yet it was Incineroar, the one that was polarizing, that got picked simply because its concept appealed to Sakurai more.


Even Brawl's roster was decided a week before Lucario's movie would air. It would be a reasonable assumption Lucario would gather some popularity as a movie star, but Sakurai would have no way of knowing back then Lucario would end up being the widely popular mainstay it is today.


The most important factor is if the Pokémon's concept as a potential fighter appeals to Sakurai and he can picture it functioning in his head.
That's what I'm focusing on when I speak of Quaquaval and Ceruledge as options regardless of how popular (Ceruledge) or overshadowed (Quaquaval) they are.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's talk about the Koopalings and my favorite one, Jr.

In particular I find it interesting how the fandom's perspective around Jr has shifted. Way back in the day, Jr. wasn't very well liked amongst several fanbases. Sure lots of people liked him, but he was despised by a lot of people. And a big part of that was because people didn't like how he replaced the Koopalings. It's kind of hard to imagine how, but when they brought back Jr. AND the Koopalings is New Super Mario Bros Wii, it was a big deal. People cheered for their return. Now they're kind of tolerated while Jr. seems to be more and more beloved.

I can only imagine younger members of the fanbase who grew up with Jr. have joined the discussion and a lot of the Jr. haters have aged out or have mellowed out. I also think Jr.'s increased prominence and characterization have really helped improve his image. He's not just a brat anymore and while he's not usually intimidating enough to be a final boss, he is enough to carry the plot of multiple games. He's kind of an underdog villain and that has an appeal.

What do you think of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings? Personally I prefer Jr. by a lot. I genuinely love the little guy. And the rest of the Koopalings kind of blend together (even if I like Iggy a lot.)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd like to share your sentiments but I can't. Pokemon has a lot of characters, cuts are quite more likely in such case. The weakest links I find so far are in order: Pichu, Ivysaur, Squirtle and Jigglypuff. With Incineroar being a curious case on its own too. Maybe on a similar level to Jigglypuff. After all, outside of Ultimate and Melee, Jigglypuff has been considered for the chopping block often times now. But yeah like you said, this character is quite easy to create so it's its saving grace. I think she'll forever be included for this reason alone maybe.

Mewtwo and Lucario, whilst popular, aren't the most popular Smash characters perse. However with the outcry of Mewtwo to be included for Smash 4, I like to tell myself its safe. It should be. However both these characters need revamps ASAP so... that might boost their Smash popularity a lot.

The Trainer I feel is carried by Charizard. And they didn't quite feel the need to include Squirtle and Ivysaur as separate characters in 4 like they did with Zard. So... I dunno. The gimmick could easily translate to a new fighter. And have Charizard be solo again.

Anyway, the only truly safe Pokemon I feel are Pikachu, Charizard and Greninja.

Pokémon Trainer isn't carried by Charizard. Squirtle and Ivysaur are carried by Pokémon Trainer. It's also important to note that Charizard is just as important as Pokémon Trainer, not more.

As far as actually trying to narrow down Pokémon's pick goes, my thoughts are a lot less optimistic across the board. If everyone has a good merit based reason to get in, then you really can't base inclusion on merit. The sole exceptions go to Pikachu, Pokémon Trainer, and Charizard specifically. Pikachu is the Mario of Pokémon, so it's obviously going to be there. Charizard is pretty ubiquitous within the franchise to the point where casuals who know nothing of the franchise know Charizard, so I think it's got its slot set in stone as well. Pokémon Trainer is highly likely due to being a representation of both the main protagonist, and the games creature collection mechanics. The only thing that gives me any sort of pause is Squirtle and Ivysaur genrally being percieved as deadweight, but even then Pokémon Trainer is such a necessary character that I think they can easily bulldoze through that issue.

There are alternitive things that could happen to Pokémon Trainer, with Red/Leaf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur being replaced with Florian/Juliana Fuecoco, Quaxwell, and Meowscarada, or a general trainer who can pick three of any of the Pokémon characters on the roster, but I the Pokémon Trainer as a concept is probably not going away. To be clear, I don't think the alternitives are super likely either, but they're probably more likely than no trainer.

After that, Lucario is in a good position, being the only (not doomed) rep from the middle of the series, and either Greninja or Incineroar will likely stay, but not both. These two character slots in conjunction with the new character will help stop the roster from being almost exclusively Gen 1. Mewtwo will join if there's enough space (or it take's Lucario's spot in this hypothetical), and Jigglypuff will join if they have a bit of extra time/plan on having enough time to include it real quick.

And then again, R.I.P. Pichu.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I was thinking about the idea of giving Eevee subtle illusory elemental effects around it as it does the elemental attacks from Let’s Go Eevee that momentarily give it the physical attributes of its evolutions while doing its elemental attacks, without the massive headache of actually having it turn into those evolutions or anything like that. Like, some fire around its mane and tail to make them fluffier to resemble Flareon, electrical spikes to resemble Jolteon, a fish tail and ruff made of water for Vaporeon, ect.

However, it’d probably have accessorized alts similar to Pikachu and Jigglypuff (given that Let’s go Eevee has a lot of costume options for it,) and having both the clothes and the effects would probably look too busy.

 

[SharkLord]

This is why I don't bother predicting cuts because it will primarily boil down to either rights issues or time constraints making it impossible to bring everyone.

And neither of these factors are things we can reasonably predict.

I've given up on truly realistic predictions. I just make up my own arbitrary criteria and make my own rosters running on that; It's easier to comprehend and honestly more fun than agonizing over what's safe or not

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As much as Gholdengo is heavily carried by its status as Pokémon #1000, I feel it should be pointed out how popular a Pokémon is does not have as strong a factor as people think.

Biggest example to give is Greninja, who while would become popular, wasn't even public knowledge or even had an actual name when Sakurai picked it well before X/Y dropped. It essentially was a complete nobody and even upon reveal for Smash it raised eyebrows since it hadn't yet become as big of a deal as it would soon enough.

And while Incineroar was known to the public by when Sakurai picked it, it had a divisive reception upon official reveal. Between Decidueye and itself, Decidueye had a warmer reception (and this carried over into Smash speculation with how it had an iron grip while Incineroar barely got traction until Vergeben), and its own first stage Rowlet was the clear winner in popularity overall. And that's not even getting into how popular Mimikyu got on reveal.
Yet it was Incineroar, the one that was polarizing, that got picked simply because its concept appealed to Sakurai more.


Even Brawl's roster was decided a week before Lucario's movie would air. It would be a reasonable assumption Lucario would gather some popularity as a movie star, but Sakurai would have no way of knowing back then Lucario would end up being the widely popular mainstay it is today.


The most important factor is if the Pokémon's concept as a potential fighter appeals to Sakurai and he can picture it functioning in his head.
That's what I'm focusing on when I speak of Quaquaval and Ceruledge as options regardless of how popular (Ceruledge) or overshadowed (Quaquaval) they are.

In terms of newcomers, I think one of the biggest factors at play here is Sakurai trying to avoid picking a Pokémon who could pontentially have gotten swallowed up in the sea of new designs. That's why our roster consists of the mascot, its child, the first protagonist and his starters, more starters, the legendary Pokémon, the one that got its own movie, and a prominant anime figure.

In this lens, random Pokémon like Tinkaton and Ceruledge are kind of nonstarters, as they haven't had a chance to prove their prominance before selection. It would also mean that our potential picks are kind of just the starters, the box legendaries, and maybe Gholdengo, or a story relevant Pokémon like Mabosstiff. Or if we're getting real crazy, a human character like Arven, Nemona, or Penny.

...

Arven & Mabosstiff would be such a funny pick.

 

[Diddy Kong]

As much as Gholdengo is heavily carried by its status as Pokémon #1000, I feel it should be pointed out how popular a Pokémon is does not have as strong a factor as people think.

Biggest example to give is Greninja, who while would become popular, wasn't even public knowledge or even had an actual name when Sakurai picked it well before X/Y dropped. It essentially was a complete nobody and even upon reveal for Smash it raised eyebrows since it hadn't yet become as big of a deal as it would soon enough.

And while Incineroar was known to the public by when Sakurai picked it, it had a divisive reception upon official reveal. Between Decidueye and itself, Decidueye had a warmer reception (and this carried over into Smash speculation with how it had an iron grip while Incineroar barely got traction until Vergeben), and its own first stage Rowlet was the clear winner in popularity overall. And that's not even getting into how popular Mimikyu got on reveal.
Yet it was Incineroar, the one that was polarizing, that got picked simply because its concept appealed to Sakurai more.


Even Brawl's roster was decided a week before Lucario's movie would air. It would be a reasonable assumption Lucario would gather some popularity as a movie star, but Sakurai would have no way of knowing back then Lucario would end up being the widely popular mainstay it is today.


The most important factor is if the Pokémon's concept as a potential fighter appeals to Sakurai and he can picture it functioning in his head.
That's what I'm focusing on when I speak of Quaquaval and Ceruledge as options regardless of how popular (Ceruledge) or overshadowed (Quaquaval) they are.

I was there when you predicted Incineroar had all the potential to be picked over Decidueye. And I'll believe you on this.

I always kind of felt that Decidueye support didn't feel all too genuine to be honest. Retrospectively, I think Incineroar indeed is the way better choice.

Of the two you mentioned I think I prefer the design of Ceruledge. But am not knowledgeable about Pokemon past Generation 5 or so. Even that I barely played. I got Sword but I barely touched 20 hours of gameplay on that one too...

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Pokémon Trainer isn't carried by Charizard. Squirtle and Ivysaur are carried by Pokémon Trainer. It's also important to note that Charizard is just as important as Pokémon Trainer, not more.

As far as actually trying to narrow down Pokémon's pick goes, my thoughts are a lot less optimistic across the board. If everyone has a good merit based reason to get in, then you really can't base inclusion on merit. The sole exceptions go to Pikachu, Pokémon Trainer, and Charizard specifically. Pikachu is the Mario of Pokémon, so it's obviously going to be there. Charizard is pretty ubiquitous within the franchise to the point where casuals who know nothing of the franchise know Charizard, so I think it's got its slot set in stone as well. Pokémon Trainer is highly likely due to being a representation of both the main protagonist, and the games creature collection mechanics. The only thing that gives me any sort of pause is Squirtle and Ivysaur genrally being percieved as deadweight, but even then Pokémon Trainer is such a necessary character that I think they can easily bulldoze through that issue.

There are alternitive things that could happen to Pokémon Trainer, with Red/Leaf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur being replaced with Florian/Juliana Fuecoco, Quaxwell, and Meowscarada, or a general trainer who can pick three of any of the Pokémon characters on the roster, but I the Pokémon Trainer as a concept is probably not going away. To be clear, I don't think the alternitives are super likely either, but they're probably more likely than no trainer.

After that, Lucario is in a good position, being the only (not doomed) rep from the middle of the series, and either Greninja or Incineroar will likely stay, but not both. These two character slots in conjunction with the new character will help stop the roster from being almost exclusively Gen 1. Mewtwo will join if there's enough space (or it take's Lucario's spot in this hypothetical), and Jigglypuff will join if they have a bit of extra time/plan on having enough time to include it real quick.

And then again, R.I.P. Pichu.

I know you mentioned the alternatives weren't super likely, but I can't see a world where they remove Trainer and then just... make a new one? Like we already have one and with one of the most iconic Pokemon of all time in his lineup, we really don't need another lol

And if it comes down to Incin vs. Greninja, I expect Greninja to get the edge just because of Legends ZA being set in Kalos.

For Puff, I feel like Puff is in an advantageous position because of its status as one of the original 12, moreso than any other character with that status, because even though it usually ends up late in development, I feel like once development time gets a bit short, it sorta gets to cut the line. Otherwise I don't think it would've beat out Mewtwo twice already in Brawl and 4.

For Mewtwo it depends on a lot of factors, but even if he's not in base game, he'll almost certainly be one of the first returning vets just like in 4 I imagine, since Mewtwo is a big deal in and outside of Smash and Pokemon themselves.

 

[SPEN18]

I was thinking about the idea of giving Eevee subtle illusory elemental effects around it as it does the elemental attacks from Let’s Go Eevee that momentarily give it the physical attributes of its evolutions while doing its elemental attacks, without the massive headache of actually having it turn into those evolutions or anything like that. Like, some fire around its mane and tail to make them fluffier to resemble Flareon, electrical spikes to resemble Jolteon, a fish tail and ruff made of water for Vaporeon, ect.

However, it’d probably have accessorized alts similar to Pikachu and Jigglypuff (given that Let’s go Eevee has a lot of costume options for it,) and having both the clothes and the effects would probably look too busy.

The alts could go the accessory route, or they could go the route of giving Eevee the color schemes of its evolutions as neat references to them / bones thrown to fans of those evolutions. Or some combination of both, especially if they allowed more than 8 alts.
As for it being too cluttered with elemental effects, I guess it just depends on what kinds of accessories are part of the alts, as some would be less intrusive than others. And also, probably the moveset itself is going to be prioritized over the choices of alts.

 

[Arcanir]

In this lens, random Pokémon like Tinkaton and Ceruledge are kind of nonstarters, as they haven't had a chance to prove their prominance before selection. It would also mean that our potential picks are kind of just the starters, the box legendaries, and maybe Gholdengo, or a story relevant Pokémon like Mabosstiff. Or if we're getting real crazy, a human character like Arven, Nemona, or Penny.

Ceruledge was promoted a decent amount going into SV, most majorly being the main mon of a major character in the new Pokemon anime that showed up in the first couple episodes. It already had a good amount of prominence to start and it's only grown since, so I would argue that it would be a potential option they would've shown Sakurai.

 

[Shinuto]

In terms of newcomers, I think one of the biggest factors at play here is Sakurai trying to avoid picking a Pokémon who could pontentially have gotten swallowed up in the sea of new designs. That's why our roster consists of the mascot, its child, the first protagonist and his starters, more starters, the legendary Pokémon, the one that got its own movie, and a prominant anime figure.

In this lens, random Pokémon like Tinkaton and Ceruledge are kind of nonstarters, as they haven't had a chance to prove their prominance before selection. It would also mean that our potential picks are kind of just the starters, the box legendaries, and maybe Gholdengo, or a story relevant Pokémon like Mabosstiff. Or if we're getting real crazy, a human character like Arven, Nemona, or Penny.

...

Arven & Mabosstiff would be such a funny pick.

I hate this cause it basically means only **** started on super early in development due to importance for marketing have any chance, an they are all so...samey. Staters, box legendaries...and thats basically it.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Pokemon this time around is especially hard to pick for I think because we got that 2021/2022 project thing Sakurai has talked about, and it's like if that's the next Smash then yeah, Sakurai would only have like concepts to work with.

If the project plan happened earlier this year or later last year, then a lot of things are fair game.

And depending on when the next Smash and the next Pokemon Generation comes out, we may have not even seen the Pokemon he's chosen yet, similar to Greninja in 4 who was announced for Smash like 4-5 months after XY released. I don't think this one is especially likely, but you never know.

 

[SPEN18]

I always kind of felt that Decidueye support didn't feel all too genuine to be honest.

Well, Decidueye's popularity within the Pokemon fandom is definitely genuine, with it performing well in polls and getting appearances in spinoffs. On the PotY 2020 poll, Decidueye and Rowlet smashed the Incineroar line's numbers. People just way overstate Incineroar's VGC significance/popularity IMO.

I actually am really not a fan of either design between Decidueye and Incineroar (though I like both Rowlett and Litten a lot, strangely), although putting personal preferences on designs and such aside, I actually think Decidueye would've been a way better choice than Incineroar. I feel hindsight benefits Decidueye even more because of its popularity and how that has lasted better than I expected it would.
And if I do allow myself to be subjective about movesets, Decidueye still comes out ahead for me: the wrestler motif is cool and all but not something we couldn't get from another franchise/character (even if Incineroar does bring some nice fiery flare and swagger to the concept), whereas Decidueye's mix of grass element, ghostly trickery, archery, and partial flight would be a diverse kit even if less straightforward to get to click at first thoughts.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

In terms of newcomers, I think one of the biggest factors at play here is Sakurai trying to avoid picking a Pokémon who could pontentially have gotten swallowed up in the sea of new designs. That's why our roster consists of the mascot, its child, the first protagonist and his starters, more starters, the legendary Pokémon, the one that got its own movie, and a prominant anime figure.

In this lens, random Pokémon like Tinkaton and Ceruledge are kind of nonstarters, as they haven't had a chance to prove their prominance before selection. It would also mean that our potential picks are kind of just the starters, the box legendaries, and maybe Gholdengo, or a story relevant Pokémon like Mabosstiff. Or if we're getting real crazy, a human character like Arven, Nemona, or Penny.

...

Arven & Mabosstiff would be such a funny pick.

Explain something to me; how would a "story relevant" Pokémon like Mabosstiff "prove prominence before selection" if the new Pokémon is generally picked for Smash before the release of their game? (And that's not even getting to the fact that it has nothing really going for it on a conceptual level since it's basically just "regular dog" with nothing that sets it apart from say, Stoutland, but I digress)

Furthermore, we already know what the Pokémon can do plays a major factor in decision if not the most important factor, even back in Smash 64.
Jigglypuff got picked over Clefairy due to the concept of a "deliberately weak" fighter being more appealing than what he thought of Clefairy (which likely had to do with randomness because Metronome given what it did as a summon). And the main reason he decided between the two was simply because he could reuse Kirby's assets for either of them.

He wanted Mewtwo in Smash 64, yes part in having a starring movie role, but he also mentions how he wanted a telekinetic-based fighter that would use psychic powers to pick up items. Nothing to do with being "THE Legendary".


And so on and so forth.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Pokémon Trainer isn't carried by Charizard. Squirtle and Ivysaur are carried by Pokémon Trainer. It's also important to note that Charizard is just as important as Pokémon Trainer, not more.

Really? Because he did just fine without him in Smash 4.

In fact it's arguably the best version of the character.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

People just way overstate Incineroar's VGC significance/popularity IMO.

The fact it's been acknowledged officially multiple times says otherwise.

Kieran was given a competitively themed Incineroar in Indigo Disk, AND Noipoi 's current avi is an existing ad.

If anything people here undermine how much a presence in the modern day it has just because it's in a specific niche compared to something like Lucario.


I mean hell, to my knowledge it's the only one whose Tera Raid got a promotional poster.

(Taken from the official Pokémon YouTube page)

 

[dream1ng]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1gure0q/reuters_sony_group_corporation_in_talks_to/

If this goes through it might be curtains for Dark Souls/Elden Ring in Smash. Also Danganronpa.

Also probably for just getting anything from From or Spike Chunsoft on Nintendo systems that wasn't negotiated prior to this deal closing, if it does. I mean very occasionally something from Sony shows up, but... I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Spike Chunsoft

oh ****

RIP Pokemon Mystery Dungeon

 

[Garteam]

Pokémon in general is extremely difficult to judge: is safe because duh. is safe because its easy to make and has been here forever. is gone. R.I.P. is kinda safe because it always makes the base roster project plan, but kinda not because it keeps being so low priority that it doesn't actually make the base roster. is safe because he's the series protagonist, and they only went Solozard because they couldn't do switching on the 3Ds. is safe because it's extremely popular, and has yet to miss a game as a result. is safe because its also super popular, and reps some of the newer gens. is kinda safe because it has become a staple in the competitive scene, and kinda not because everyone else hates him. Problem found: I've convinced myself that too many characters have good odds.

How about newcomers? Where are they coming from? Probably Pokémon Scarlet/Violet. Who are they picking? Well precedence says a starter, but circumstances are different, so it could be just about anything. The only thing I think it can't be is Koraidon/Miraidon since they'd have to add both, and they can't Echo each other because their body plans are too different.

I think the problem is you're judging the characters by their individual merits in a vacuum, but cut characters (generally) don't get cut because there was never a great reason behind their inclusion. Instead, it's really just prioritized characters taking resources from characters that would, ideally, be in but for their decreased priority. If Sakurai had the time and money, he probably would do Everyone is Here every entry, but that's not sustainable.

Anyways, here's my take on Pokemon, from most to least likely under the assumption we get three to five vets:

• Safe
  • (Duh.)
  • (The extra dev time is outweighed by the importance of the various concepts PKMN Trainer represents and the trio's popularity in and out of Smash)
  • (Yeah, the moveset sucks, but Lucario is always pushed incredibly hard)
• Could go either way
  • (She hasn't had a great reason to be in Smash for 20+ years, but Jiggs is so iconic to Smash and easy to develop that she'll likely be an 11th hour edition, like in Brawl and Smash for 3DS)
  • (He's an incredibly popular legendary with a really unique moveset, but he's been cut in the past due to seemingly having the misfortune of just not being prioritized)
• Probably Cut
  • (The Pokemon Company's love for Greninja from the 2010's has fizzled out, which really hurts him. Winning Google's Pokemon poll a couple of years ago may save him, but I wouldn't count on grassroots love beating corporate desires.)
  • (Exact same position as Greninja, but worse due to never reaching the same heights of popularity and in and out of Smash. I don't think the poor initial reception will affect much because that's super nerds whining on the internet in the grand scheme of Smash's market, but VGC won't do much either because that's just super nerds whining on the internet and occasionally in a convention hall)
  • (It's like poetry, they rhyme. Every stanza sort of rhymes with the last.)

 

[fogbadge]

Personally I’ve made peace with the idea that I’ll never have my ideal Pokemon lineup in smash

 

[Garteam]

Personally I’ve made peace with the idea that I’ll never have my ideal Pokemon lineup in smash

It's unfortunate, but Pokemon simulateously has the most and least potential for exciting Smash characters. There are so many great options for Pokemon to make Smash characters, but corporate mechanizations will always shape who actually gets in the game.

I really like Meowscarada, but I will also admit its clearly foreshadowed role as Lily's fully-evolved, super cool battling in the Scarlet/Violet anime would likely be the deciding factor for its inclusion rahter than its moveset potential (even if there is a lot there).

 

[fogbadge]

It's unfortunate, but Pokemon simulateously has the most and least potential for exciting Smash characters. There are so many great options for Pokemon to make Smash characters, but corporate mechanizations will always shape who actually gets in the game.

I really like Meowscarada, but I will also admit its clearly foreshadowed role as Lily's fully-evolved, super cool battling in the Scarlet/Violet anime would likely be the deciding factor for its inclusion rahter than its moveset potential (even if there is a lot there).

I agree on every point

 

[Garteam]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1gure0q/reuters_sony_group_corporation_in_talks_to/

If this goes through it might be curtains for Dark Souls/Elden Ring in Smash. Also Danganronpa.

Also probably for just getting anything from From or Spike Chunsoft on Nintendo systems that wasn't negotiated prior to this deal closing, if it does. I mean very occasionally something from Sony shows up, but... I wouldn't hold my breath.

It'll be interesting if this is the domino that finally gets Nintendo into acquiring other studios, if for no other reason than to stop Sony from acquiring Japanese development partners.

I don't think Squeenix would sell to Sony after the PS5 kneecapped FFVII Rebirth (although Square probably does need to own up to their mismanagement of FFVII as an IP if they really want to recover from their slump), but that's type of buyout that would have to happen for Nintendo to start following the leader if this doesn't motivate them.

 

[BritishGuy54]

We’re literally getting Z-A next year, I don’t see Greninja getting cut if we’re revisiting Kalos.

I think the problem is you're judging the characters by their individual merits in a vacuum, but cut characters (generally) don't get cut because there was never a great reason behind their inclusion. Instead, it's really just prioritized characters taking resources from characters that would, ideally, be in but for their decreased priority. If Sakurai had the time and money, he probably would do Everyone is Here every entry, but that's not sustainable.

Anyways, here's my take on Pokemon, from most to least likely under the assumption we get three to five vets:

• Safe
  • (Duh.)
  • (The extra dev time is outweighed by the importance of the various concepts PKMN Trainer represents and the trio's popularity in and out of Smash)
  • (Yeah, the moveset sucks, but Lucario is always pushed incredibly hard)
• Could go either way
  • (She hasn't had a great reason to be in Smash for 20+ years, but Jiggs is so iconic to Smash and easy to develop that she'll likely be an 11th hour edition, like in Brawl and Smash for 3DS)
  • (He's an incredibly popular legendary with a really unique moveset, but he's been cut in the past due to seemingly having the misfortune of just not being prioritized)
• Probably Cut
  • (The Pokemon Company's love for Greninja from the 2010's has fizzled out, which really hurts him. Winning Google's Pokemon poll a couple of years ago may save him, but I wouldn't count on grassroots love beating corporate desires.)
  • (Exact same position as Greninja, but worse due to never reaching the same heights of popularity and in and out of Smash. I don't think the poor initial reception will affect much because that's super nerds whining on the internet in the grand scheme of Smash's market, but VGC won't do much either because that's just super nerds whining on the internet and occasionally in a convention hall)
  • (It's like poetry, they rhyme. Every stanza sort of rhymes with the last.)

 

[dezeray112]

Charade? From Soulcalibur?

First off, that would mean Bandai Namco giving a **** about the IP again which doesn't seem likely since the one director who managed to convince them that SC6 was a good idea no longer works for them.

Second, there is no way they would pick Charade over either a massively iconic character (Nightmare) or a more prominent mimic (Inferno).

I do wish there was further support for the SoulCalibur franchise as I feel it deserved more.

I also believe that there are several iconic characters from the SC franchise from the likes of Heishiro Mitsurugi, Sophitia Alexandria, Ivy Valentine, Nightmare, Siegfried Schauffen and Taki.

 

[Garteam]

We’re literally getting Z-A next year, I don’t see Greninja getting cut if we’re revisiting Kalos.

Z-A postdates Sakurai's new project plan. Scarlet/Violet weren't even done development when Sakurai chose the roster in 2021.

The bigger issue is Greninja having to compete against Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Jigglypuff, and Mewtwo in terms of priority. Maybe Greninja can outprioritize Jigglypuff or Mewtwo, but that still requires at least 3 veterans (5, if you want to separate Pokemon Trainer) to already be on the roster.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Personally I’ve made peace with the idea that I’ll never have my ideal Pokemon lineup in smash

I know I won't either.

Doesn't mean I won't look for ways we could get a Pokemon newcomer that isn't a humanoid starter from the latest gen, even if Smash fans complain that it'd make Pokemon reps repetitive in the wrong way.

 

[fogbadge]

I do wish there was further support for the SoulCalibur franchise as I feel it deserved more.

I also believe that there are several iconic characters from the SC franchise from the likes of Heishiro Mitsurugi, Sophitia Alexandria, Ivy Valentine, Nightmare, Siegfried Schauffen and Taki.

and Kilik

I know I won't either.

Doesn't mean I won't look for ways we could get a Pokemon newcomer that isn't a humanoid starter from the latest gen, even if Smash fans complain that it'd make Pokemon reps repetitive in the wrong way.

Agreed

 

[smashkirby]

100 characters is actually the easiest thing in the world. Bring back all the veterans, get rid of the echo fighter label, and promote these
+Arel alts+Sophia alts
to full separate fighters.

Then add Alear. Bada-bing bada-boom, now they can easily market Smash Bros. 100 for the 100 character roster

I'm not going to lie... to this day, there's a little part of me that's honestly a bit surprised Sakurai didn't try to pull something like "Technically, Smash Ultimate DID reach 100(+) characters... if you count model swap characters, such as Alph, Leaf, the Koopalings, and what-have-you that count as their own character within their own canon".

Unrelated thought, but something that's been passing my mind recently. I still see a good amount of people in favor of Alph getting an overdue upgrade to echo fighter that (at least IMO) should probably be directed at the Pikmin 4 Protagonist / Rookie at this point. As weird as it is that he didn't get the same perk as Lucina or Dark Pit way back when, that was such a long time ago that I think we should kind of put it to rest.

Not only because the Rookie is the new hotness, but I think the new customization introduced in Pikmin 4 is probably worth representing and as such you can open up a slew of more diverse alternate costumes through a different character while focusing on honing in Olimar as more of his own individual character. I think Alph probably remains glued to Olimar regardless and maybe we get three Pikmin heroes this way, but I unno. For as much as we acknowledge Oatchi nowadays it still feels like the default kneejerk reaction to an Olimar echo fighter is Alph instead of like... the new guy, from the more popular game.

As I've said in the past, RodNutTakin 's idea of having Olimar, Louie, Alph, and Pom/Lisa share a slot wouldn't be a TOTAL dealbreaker for me. I'll admit that it WOULD irritate me as someone who'd like Olimar to have more of a personality in Smash (and by extension, would like for Alph to get his OWN slot), but I do sort of see the 'vision' where someone with Olimar's general build just might not be as warranted to get a separate slot at this point.

Well, to be more specific? I think that if Alph DOESN'T get upgraded from being a mere model swap next Smash, then my whole thing about Pikmin characters with Olimar's overall build might ring true after all...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Explain something to me; how would a "story relevant" Pokémon like Mabosstiff "prove prominence before selection" if the new Pokémon is generally picked for Smash before the release of their game? (And that's not even getting to the fact that it has nothing really going for it on a conceptual level since it's basically just "regular dog" with nothing that sets it apart from say, Stoutland, but I digress)

For those, I'm assuming the game is either basically out, or already out when the picks were made. If we're assuming development started 2023-2024, it's a fairly likely scenario. And I suppose if it was in 2024, or even late 2023, that would probably put the purely popular Pokémon back on the table since by then he'd know who's popular. The DLC legendaries would also be on the table due to getting much harder pushes in comparison to the Galarian Elemental Birds.

As for gameplay hooks for Mabosstiff. The Godfather, but with dogs isn't nothing. Though just because it's an option doesn't mean Sakurai would seriously consider it. I'm sure compared to the dark magician, dancing peacock, flaming duet, prehistoric/futuristic mounts, string cheese man, and "haha oni go bonk", it's got the least going for it, as it's pretty much just that players would 100% have seen it and probably connected with it due to Arven's story.

Z-A postdates Sakurai's new project plan. Scarlet/Violet weren't even done development when Sakurai chose the roster in 2021.

Oh, that's the timeline we're working with? Kinda forgot, heh. Since this is by Pokémon Legends: Arceus's dev team, Pokémon Legends Z-A would have been known internally by then, so if it was a factor in keeping Greninja, then it would affect things.

Personally, I don't think it'd affect his choice too much because Greninja won't be a starter in that game given how Pokémon Legends: Arceus had Oshawott, Rowlett, and Cyndaquill rather than the Sinnoh starters.

Really? Because he did just fine without him in Smash 4.

In fact it's arguably the best version of the character.

That doesn't really discredit my statement. By being just as important as Pokémon Trainer, Charizard can absolutely stand on its own, but this also means that Pokémon Trainer isn't really being carried by Charizard.

I think the problem is you're judging the characters by their individual merits in a vacuum, but cut characters (generally) don't get cut because there was never a great reason behind their inclusion. Instead, it's really just prioritized characters taking resources from characters that would, ideally, be in but for their decreased priority. If Sakurai had the time and money, he probably would do Everyone is Here every entry, but that's not sustainable.

I agree with this, and I did make a post talking about it from that angle. My thoughts are mostly the same as yours, though I don't think Lucario is safe, and I don't think Greninja or Incineroar are doomed, though those two are either/or.

I'd even go as far as to say that Greninja/Incineroar over Lucario isn't impossible, just a little improbable.

 

[Laniv]

Let's talk about the Koopalings and my favorite one, Jr.

In particular I find it interesting how the fandom's perspective around Jr has shifted. Way back in the day, Jr. wasn't very well liked amongst several fanbases. Sure lots of people liked him, but he was despised by a lot of people. And a big part of that was because people didn't like how he replaced the Koopalings. It's kind of hard to imagine how, but when they brought back Jr. AND the Koopalings is New Super Mario Bros Wii, it was a big deal. People cheered for their return. Now they're kind of tolerated while Jr. seems to be more and more beloved.

I can only imagine younger members of the fanbase who grew up with Jr. have joined the discussion and a lot of the Jr. haters have aged out or have mellowed out. I also think Jr.'s increased prominence and characterization have really helped improve his image. He's not just a brat anymore and while he's not usually intimidating enough to be a final boss, he is enough to carry the plot of multiple games. He's kind of an underdog villain and that has an appeal.

What do you think of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings? Personally I prefer Jr. by a lot. I genuinely love the little guy. And the rest of the Koopalings kind of blend together (even if I like Iggy a lot.)

Putting aside all my biases towards Mario characters and who my favorites are...

Bowser Jr. is kinda the best Mario character.

He provides an interesting dynamic to the Mario-Peach-Bowser triangle, and has had generally fun interactions with every character he's actually interacted with. The Bowser-Bowser Jr. dynamic is obvious; I think it's fun that these evil turtle guys have a healthy father-son relationship, even if it is at least partially based on hating on Mario.

On that note, Jr.'s dynamic with Mario is pretty funny, because yes, they're enemies, yes, Mario's gonna stomp this eight-year-old the way he would a Goomba, but Jr. is willing to team up with him easier than Bowser would.

Bowser Jr.'s relationship with Peach... hasn't really been touched on since Sunshine. Me, I choose to believe that he still sees Peach as a mother figure on some level, and the idea of saving her from the "bad man Mario" led into his dabbling into being a hero in later games.

With that dynamic aside, another thing I like about him is that he's basically the mechanic of the Koopa Kingdom. The Clown Car is basically his thing now, but even back in Sunshine, his big reveal was right after Mario defeated a big mech he was piloting. It's a fun break from the brute strength of his dad.

Also he's cute, so that's a bonus.

As for the Koopalings... I hate to say it, but they do tend to blend together, and what some would call overexposure didn't really help them. But at the end, we all know Lemmy's the best one

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I seriously hope that news about Sony buying From Software won't pan out.
I'm buying myself a PS4 this Christmas, I finally have a very good job and I've waited long enough to play Elden Ring already, but still... One of today's most important game studios going exclusive to a single platform sucks. I really don't see Sony pulling a Microsoft and sharing some of their exclusives with other publishers.

 

[smashkirby]

Let's talk about the Koopalings and my favorite one, Jr.

In particular I find it interesting how the fandom's perspective around Jr has shifted. Way back in the day, Jr. wasn't very well liked amongst several fanbases. Sure lots of people liked him, but he was despised by a lot of people. And a big part of that was because people didn't like how he replaced the Koopalings. It's kind of hard to imagine how, but when they brought back Jr. AND the Koopalings is New Super Mario Bros Wii, it was a big deal. People cheered for their return. Now they're kind of tolerated while Jr. seems to be more and more beloved.

I can only imagine younger members of the fanbase who grew up with Jr. have joined the discussion and a lot of the Jr. haters have aged out or have mellowed out. I also think Jr.'s increased prominence and characterization have really helped improve his image. He's not just a brat anymore and while he's not usually intimidating enough to be a final boss, he is enough to carry the plot of multiple games. He's kind of an underdog villain and that has an appeal.

What do you think of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings? Personally I prefer Jr. by a lot. I genuinely love the little guy. And the rest of the Koopalings kind of blend together (even if I like Iggy a lot.)

Personally? I love ALL of them and to see the Koopalings return to the series (in a prominent manner) since New Super Mario Bros. Wii was like a dream come true for me. It's to the point where I honestly get a bit irrationally irritated at folks saying the Koopalings should be removed from Mario Kart.

I know Nintendo really does need to start doing more to flesh them out, but I DEFINITELY wouldn't consider them to be 'pointless additions' on the level of the alternate skin characters or (most of) the babies.

Ironically enough, in terms of Smash? I was a huge Bowser Jr. supporter during the Brawl days, and was pretty bummed (and surprised) at Jr. not making Brawl's roster (BUT I did get King Dedede, so it kind of evened out for me). Come Smash 4, and while I did still support Jr. joining Smash, my support for the little guy had waned a pretty notable deal.

Then came the ESRB leak, and Jr. was not only revealed for the roster, but he even had some gameplay available. However, I wasn't AS excited for him as I thought I'd be, although that might have just been him getting leaked that hurt things for me a bit. With all of that said, my excitement for the character suddenly returned to a near-fever pitch when I saw the trophy of Larry Koopa... driving a Junior Clown Car.

At the time, I still didn't think Smash Bros. could do stuff like Tekken-styled alt. skin characters, so I was simply fascinated to see what Larry and (by possible extension) his siblings were going to do in Smash Bros., given none of them had ever driven a Clown Car prior to Smash Bros.

Then Smash 3DS comes out, and the absolute JOY AND HYPE I felt over the Koopalings being PLAYABLE characters in Smash was something I'll never forget. No joke, had the leaks not happened, Bowser Jr. being bundled with the Koopalings as an 8-in-1 character ALONE would have convinced me to get Smash 4.