Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[KillerCage]

So honest question...

I'm currently making the third party poll. And new franchises are certainly a doozy.

What companies should I give their own section. I plan on having a general "other" section for things like indies and smaller companies.

Currently I have...

Konami
Sega
Capcom
Bandai-Namco
Square Enix
Microsoft
SNK
Disney
Sony
EA
Ubisoft
Valve
Koei Tecmo
Falcom
Atari
Take 2
Tencent
Riot Games
Netease

What else am I missing? Keep in mind, smaller companies like Atlas or Bethesda will be included with their owners, Sega and Microsoft.

Arc System Works comes to mind.

 

[Oracle Link]

To be fair, Jigglypuff is one of the few characters from the first game that anyone ever seems to be okay with cutting.

I forget if she was actually a lower priority character in the last few games barring Ultimate or not, but there's definitely still people who issue with her moveset.



Roster status: acceptable.

Still want Toon Link to stay among the cast, too, though

You want Jigglypuff and toon link?
Based!

 

[Kirbeh]

Mortal Kombat Trilogy on the PS1 and N64 also did it but that was pretty early in the franchise’s life I’m not sure if you want to count it. Killer Instinct 2013 brought every character back once all the DLC was out but started with a much smaller roster.

If a new Smash actually got support for the entire console's life a KI style "(most) everyone is here, by the end of DLC" would be perfectly fine imo.

It'd mean fewer DLC newcomers sure, but if we're working with 5-6 years of DLC content (with similar 5-6 character passes like Ultimate) I think that evens out in the long run.

Now is that a realistic scenario? Probably not, but it'd be a good way of making people more accepting of the cuts if they know a dozen+ are coming back shortly after.

 

[The Prankster 16]

Here's a couple rosters I made of varying sizes:

Spoiler: 100 Characters (Ultimate Deluxe)

Spoiler: 77 Characters

Spoiler: 66 Characters

Realistically, I think the Smash 6 roster would fall somewhere in-between the 77 and 66 character rosters, maybe around 70.

 

[ScrubReborn]

I get the topic's shifting, but I spent too much time typing so my rough priority order for Pokemans is

1: Pikachu
2: Charizard

No explanation needed on these two I'd hope.

3: Greninja
4: Lucario
5: Mewtwo

Greninja and Lucario are interchangeable, don't know who to put above the other, but I feel Mewtwo is lower than both, mix of precedent + wanting more than just Gen 1 Pokemon. All three are in the same general area though.

6: Jigglypuff
7: Incineroar
8: Squirtle
9: Ivysaur

Pokemon's more expendable cast starts here. Jiggs and Incineroar can be swapped if you wish. Squirtle and Ivysaur (and by proxy Trainer) are odd honestly, I feel I'll need to elaborate on them.

Spoiler: pokeman trainer theory

The only thing we know for sure is that Charizard is safe. Trash 4 made that clear: Charizard stayed, Squirtle and Ivysaur didn’t. But while the 3DS forced their split, it doesn’t fully explain why Squirtle and Ivysaur were cut. I don't think Sakurai just threw them away after the 3DS ****; Sheik and ZSS survived the same limitations, and besides, that's never been how he rolls, he doesn't just waste assets. Far as we know, he’s only cut characters due to time or, in Ice Climbers’ case, different hardware issues that made them literally unplayable.

Squirtle and Ivysaur are still clearly lesser solo draws than Charizard, most the other Pokemon vets and Greninja though; my theory is that after the 3DS stuff, they got demoted to low priority and dev time ran out. And yeah, if that's true, that would mean Solo Squirtle and/or Ivysaur could have happened in Smash 4 if they somehow had more time. Hot take? Maybe idk. Some are more optimistic about their futures in a post 3DS society, but idk, I feel like it won't be that simple, especially if my Trash 4 theory is right; the last two paragraphs operate under that assumption.

Things have changed since Brawl and 4; A 3-in-1 unique fighter veteran is cool when you can bring back near everyone, but when you know you'll have to leave more characters behind than before? That's different. Double when there's plenty of other iconic and/or fan favorite Pokeman vets fighting for space. Knowing the roster limits, I doubt Sak will bump them all down just to add the full Trainer; I think Trainer would be planned from the start (as with every other first party), but Charizard would be done early while Squirtle and Ivysaur retain their post-3DS low priority, basically they get treated as luxuries to finish for the fans if they can get the other Pokemans in first; if they finish Ivysaur, Trainer lives. If not, SoloZard, and if he's finished, Solo Squirtle too.

...Yeah, this theory would make it possible for Solo Squirtle to be in Smash 6. Very unlikely, and would only happen if resources are tight enough for him to be the literal last character they can develop. And I imagine Ivysaur being directly behind him in priority, so it would be difficult, but not impossible, for only Squirtle to be finished. Solo Ivysaur will never happen; if she's finished, we just get Trainer.

10: Pichu

🪦

I’ll just drop this roster in here.

I notice you cut 4 full first party series; Wii Fit, Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers and R.O.B. I do agree that those would probably be the first lopped off, but TBH I feel like at least one of them would return over 1-2 of the characters you brought back. Personally, I'd trade Rosalina for one of them. She's nice and all but I don't think she needs to return over all four of these universes. Maybe Duck Hunt?

Also the Lucina and Dank Pit cuts stand out. How are you handling echos? Is it a Brawl thing where the surviving echos get decloned? 'Cause if they're staying the same it feels odd cutting what amounts to palette swaps.

 

[jamesster445]

These are the types of new gameplay mechanics I'd like to see in future games.

What do yall think?

 

[chinkuru]

So honest question...

I'm currently making the third party poll. And new franchises are certainly a doozy.

What companies should I give their own section. I plan on having a general "other" section for things like indies and smaller companies.

Currently I have...

Konami
Sega
Capcom
Bandai-Namco
Square Enix
Microsoft
SNK
Disney
Sony
EA
Ubisoft
Valve
Koei Tecmo
Falcom
Atari
Take 2
Tencent
Riot Games
Netease

What else am I missing? Keep in mind, smaller companies like Atlas or Bethesda will be included with their owners, Sega and Microsoft.

Level 5

 

[Perkilator]

So honest question...

I'm currently making the third party poll. And new franchises are certainly a doozy.

What companies should I give their own section. I plan on having a general "other" section for things like indies and smaller companies.

Currently I have...

Konami
Sega
Capcom
Bandai-Namco
Square Enix
Microsoft
SNK
Disney
Sony
EA
Ubisoft
Valve
Koei Tecmo
Falcom
Atari
Take 2
Tencent
Riot Games
Netease

What else am I missing? Keep in mind, smaller companies like Atlas or Bethesda will be included with their owners, Sega and Microsoft.

Nihon Falcom

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think part of the problem is that Jigglypuff can't really be evaluated on the same lines as non-clone characters, but we also don't really know how much grace that actually gives the Balloon Pokémon.

This also means it's going up against the likes of Lucas, Roy, the child Links, Doc, Pichu, and Isabelle, all of which are strange to compare.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Mortal Kombat Trilogy on the PS1 and N64 also did it but that was pretty early in the franchise’s life I’m not sure if you want to count it. Killer Instinct 2013 brought every character back once all the DLC was out but started with a much smaller roster.

Okay, genuinely forgot Trilogy and in Killer Instinct’s case, I chose not to count the DLC because the game didn’t start with everyone, which was my entire point.

You think a father would let his children die?

Joking aside, I’m not saying the three I said are the only ones that CAN come back. I can definitely see the Kirby trio make a comeback but also, anything can happen when moving to the new game so I’d rather assume that only a handful of characters are “safe” even though the real number of “safe” veterans is probably in the 20s or 30s.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

These are the types of new gameplay mechanics I'd like to see in future games.

What do yall think?

Honestly, I think that's pretty darn cool, and a neat way of including special pummels that isn't just copying Rivals of Aether. If also gives characters nifty things to do with grab, making their unique mechanics seem a bit more central to their gameplan.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Joking aside, I’m not saying the three I said are the only ones that CAN come back. I can definitely see the Kirby trio make a comeback but also, anything can happen when moving to the new game so I’d rather assume that only a handful of characters are “safe” even though the real number of “safe” veterans is probably in the 20s or 30s.

I think Kirby should be equal to those three you mentioned. He's not on par sales wise, but other than being a Sakurai creation, the Kirby series' DNA is part of Smash's foundation, a lot of Smash's control scheme/mechanics are ripped from Kirby's gameplay; I think that makes it literally impossible to remove him no matter what. And yeah creatorship bias helps too.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Genuinely safe characters I feel are:



Honestly that's still rather conservative in my opinion but I can't see any situation without these guys here. Was extra careful with Pokemon and Fire Emblem on purpose too.

 

[Louie G.]

The only characters who are truly safe are Mario, Link and Pikachu because they’re just too big in Nintendo’s repertoire to be cut. Anyone else has a non-zero chance of not making it back. That’s just the harsh reality of things.

Well actually I feel like Pikachu has a slightly greater chance of being cut than the others because Pokemon Company is an outside party. Since TPC is very particular about their brand image and multimedia territory there's a (very slim) chance that they'd decide to pull out one day and Nintendo may kinda just have to play along. Obviously I don't think that will ever happen, but I don't think Pikachu is as cozy of a lock as Mario or Link, Nintendo's in-house mascots. If they're 100%, Pikachu has to be like 98-99%.

Kirby is about as safe as these guys by virtue of Sakurai directing the series, and frankly he's kind of the mascot at this point, but I guess that becomes a very slight question mark if he isn't (he's also under HAL, but honestly I don't think HAL has as much leverage as TPC - Kirby has a racing costume in Mario Kart, he has sound effects in Mario Maker, whatever). I think saying those three are the only entirely 100% safe locks is a bit of an exaggeration though - at the very least, I can't see a Smash without Samus, Kirby, Villager and/or Isabelle, Inkling... etc moving forward unless something drastic happens to those series or characters down the line. Let alone DK, Luigi, Peach or Bowser.

Fire Emblem or Pikmin feel like surefire bets nowadays but given the nature of those series could always swap out for a new face.

Obviously we're all nitpicking some really slim odds, but I think the absolute smallest more dire state a Smash roster could ever go on veterans might look something like this.

*
*Interchangeable with Villager

Hey, that's 12 characters! What are the odds?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I’ll just drop this roster in here.

Zero new 3P franchises?

fart sound

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I still think all 12 of the characters who debuted in the very first game in the series are safe for at least the next entry in the series.

At this point, I just can't see Jigglypuff being cut for the foreseeable future unless the devs do a complete overhaul of the roster or goes in a vastly different direction from previous entries, either of which are most likely going to happen only if the series gets a new director. The same goes for characters from more dormant IPs like Earthbound/Mother and Starfox.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Since TPC is very particular about their brand image

A brand image which still includes Pikachu as a major part of it, even with Ash and his Pikachu gone.

 

[Louie G.]

A brand image which still includes Pikachu as a major part of it, even with Ash and his Pikachu gone.

Well obviously, I meant that they're more susceptible to randomly say "we don't want Pokemon fighting people in Smash anymore" than Nintendo would be to say Mario and Link can't do the same. Not saying it's likely or even has more than a 1% chance of happening, I'm suggesting that Pokemon as an IP is more volatile a piece of Smash's puzzle than Mario, Zelda or a few of the other in-house properties. Nintendo needs to compromise by their set of rules.

There's no Pokemon in Smash without Pikachu though, of course. This doesn't have anything to do with Pikachu's individual significance or brand power.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

You think a father would let his children die?

As long as Pit doesnt get cut i genuinely dont think Dark Pit would get cut either since he's just a pallete swap.

Palutena could go either way

 

[Louie G.]

I have a gut feeling that will continue to slip by if Palutena's Guidance sticks around. At that point you already have her actress in the booth, the character already has a prominent role in the game, it may feel a bit silly to dangle her over your head like that and refuse to bring her back. Even if it's post-launch as one of the veteran DLCs, I just think she will make her way back onto the roster at any point.

Not saying that Palutena cannot be cut, but I think these things will just continue to keep the character prominently on the team's mind. Maybe not as the absolute highest priority but I think it edges her out among the middle of the pack characters, along with being generally popular and having a pretty unique aesthetic presence as a light goddess / gameplay role with a staff. It's fun to have god-level characters around to pick up and play like anyone else... frankly I wish they pushed it even further, like bring all these guys (Palutena, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Ganondorf) up to Sephiroth levels of flash now.

But yeah, I'd say Palutena is more likely than not. I wouldn't be entirely shocked if she missed the boat but I think she's pooling pretty high to slide back into any roster above 50-ish characters.

 

[ninjahmos]

I understand not wanting anyone to get cut, but sometimes I worry that bringing everyone back again and adding in newcomers might take up a little too much of the resources.

 

[CannonStreak]

I understand not wanting anyone to get cut, but sometimes I worry that bringing everyone back again and adding in newcomers might take up a little too much of the resources.

Yeah, I understand. I mean, that is going to take up a lot of time. It would be hard work, too.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I understand not wanting anyone to get cut, but sometimes I worry that bringing everyone back again and adding in newcomers might take up a little too much of the resources.

That's...exactly what people who worry about them doing EIH again already worry about. That a repeat of bringing everyone back would be a repeat of the lack of Ultimate's base game newcomers.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Obviously we're all nitpicking some really slim odds, but I think the absolute smallest more dire state a Smash roster could ever go on veterans might look something like this.

Since we're nitpicking already, I'd put Marth, Olimer and Shulk above Bowser, Peach, Zelda and Luigi (roughly in that order). At least for Smash 6. I picture those four more as the ones that come right after them. I just don't imagine a modern bare mimunum roster skimping out on those series at all.

So I guess I'm picturing like, same as you, but with Marth, Olimar and Shulk instead of Peach, Zelda and Luigi. That is, if we want to specifically stick to the top 12.




I know you kinda addressed FE and Pikmin by addressing the possibility of new leads, but I just don't think anyone's gonna usurp Marth/Olimar (in Smash)

 

[fogbadge]

I understand not wanting anyone to get cut, but sometimes I worry that bringing everyone back again and adding in newcomers might take up a little too much of the resources.

you and me both. but as I like to remind people cuts aren't necessarily forever. loosing any character is going to upset someone (and please others) but we all need to accept that this is just how games with big roster work.

 

[Louie G.]

So I guess I'm picturing like, same as you, but with Marth, Olimar and Shulk instead of Peach, Zelda and Luigi.

I'd like to make the case that Peach and Luigi are more intrinsic to the Nintendo brand these days than ever. Luigi's Mansion 3 sold more than any single game in these three series and Princess Peach is the defacto "girl character" for Nintendo, who has been more concerned about gendered options lately as seen through Mario Wonder and their amusement parks.

Of course it will never come down to something as dire as "are we keeping Peach or Marth", but I think it's fair to prioritize them in particular. The Mario gang always kinda has something going on. Out of these I'd be most convinced to switch over on Olimar over Zelda, but my thing with these three was like... if I can even make the case at all that Marth / Olimar / Shulk can be sidelined for a different character from their series, that is not a surefire lock. Rotating protagonists mean those characters' roles are more flexible. Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Zelda don't have that problem and are always heavy hitters.

If I had added three more characters it may be them, though. I think Shulk might get booted in favor of Fox but yeah.

 

[Gorgonzales]

These are the types of new gameplay mechanics I'd like to see in future games.

What do yall think?

Using modded gameplay to demonstrate these ideas is actually perfect.

This is a simple mechanic proposal but it looks like the cast can really get a lot of mileage from it, I loved the examples he gave for Ivysaur, Duck Hunt, Olimar, and more. I never really thought about it until now, but pummel specials really do make a great "utility" move spot along with shield specials.

Lots of potential here. DK's cargo could be remapped to special pummel so now he has a pure forward throw, Pac-Man's special pummel could have him turn into ball form as he chomps his opponent forward like dash attack, Inkling could apply almost full ink to her opponent, etcetera.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like Marth is kinda lumped into the original 12 as a character that they want to always be on the cast.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Pokemon and Fire Emblem are always going to the toughest ones to figure out since unlike most of the other first-party franchises in Smash, they're always introducing tons of new characters in practically each game, meaning Sakurai will probably pick from new characters while leaving out some of the older ones again going forward.

With that said, unless again, Smash gets a new director with a vastly different thought process and/or vision for the series, I don't think Pikachu and Marth are going anywhere any time soon. Both are considered the mascots of their respective franchises of origin and are hugely popular characters to this day, and more often than not, the developers of each franchise still find ways to make them relevant in their modern games in one way or another. I'm confident that they're safe for at least the next Smash, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're still around by at least a few more later entries.

 

[Pupp135]

Alright, I made a new Smash 6 roster. Like the last one, I tried to balance popular characters the general public really wanted and my own personal choices just to keep things interesting. I tried to make the choices at least semi realistic. For the base roster, I kept it to Ultimate's 84 characters but made a good deal of cuts and additions to keep it fresh even if the total roster isn't larger. I also made three Fighter's Passes to get the roster up to 100 characters by the end of the DLC. I think a slightly more realistic approach is to cut six newcomers from the base game to fill out a fourth fighter's pass so the starting roster is only 78 instead of 84.

So for the base roster, here's what I was thinking:

Base Roster:

Cuts:

Dr. Mario
Toon Link
Young Link
Jigglypuff
Pichu
Incineroar
Roy
Corrin
Chrom
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Duck Hunt
Wii Fit Trainer
Mii
Bayonetta
Steve
Snake

Newcomers:

Waluigi (Super Mario)
Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong Country)
Impa (Legend of Zelda)
Zoroark/Hisuian Zoraork (Pokemon)
Team Rocket (Pokemon)
Bandana Dee (Kirby)
Elfilis (Kirby)
Lyn (Fire Emblem)
E.M.M.I. (Metroid)
Octoling (Splatoon)
DJ Octavio (Splatoon)
Elma (Xenoblade)
Officer Howard (Astral Chain)
Isaac (Golden Sun)
Dillon (Dillon's Rolling Western)
Shadow the Hedgehog (Sonic)
Zero (Mega Man)
Alphen and Shionne (Tales of)
Ryu Hyabusa (Ninja Gaiden)

View attachment 396976

For the Fighter's passes, I leaned a bit more towards my personal preferences but wanted to keep the choices at least somewhat realistic and be able to make a solid argument for each inclusion.

So here's the breakdown for the first pass:

Fighter's Pass 1:

Jinx (League of Legends)
Chun-Li (Street Fighter)
Rash (Battletoads) with Zitz and Pimple as alts
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors)
Midna (Legend of Zelda)
Bill Rizer (Contra) with Lance Bean as an alt

View attachment 396977

For Fighter's Pass 2, I wanted to lead with a first party character, so I went with an iconic Pokemon and one of my most wanted characters:

Fighter's Pass 2:

Gengar (Pokemon)
Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
Magus (Chrono Trigger)
Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
Etna (Disgaea)
Sarah Kerrigan (StarCraft)

View attachment 396978

I wanted to start off the last Fighter's Pass with a popular character and end with a big surprise that's both very popular and one that not many expect like Sora:

Fighter's Pass 3:

Yuna (Final Fantasy)
Tails (Sonic)
Kunio (River City) with Riki as an alt
Illidan (WarCraft)
Bomberman (Bomberman)
Scorpion (Mortal Kombat) with Sub-Zero as a semiclone with unique specials, taunts, and final smash

View attachment 396979

I like to mix in a good amount of unexpected choices because I feel like it would be boring to only include the most speculated characters with no surprises. I think this final roster does a good job at bringing in a lot of expected fan favorites with characters that no one really saw coming. The final roster size of just over 100 characters post DLC might be a bit too ambitious but I don't think it's impossible, especially if you cut some characters from the base roster for one or two more fighter's passes. Ideally, we'd get cut veterans back periodically separate from the Fighter's Passes at a reduced price.

Other ideas:

I had a few ideas for game modes and other content as well. First, every character will be playable from the start without the need to unlock them but using each character in various modes will unlock alternate outfits, trophies, and other things for them. Each character will have at least one unique model alternate outfit unlocked through completing their classic mode. There will also be a color editor for outfits with limitations for third party characters that don't want certain colors edited.

New side mode: Playable bosses and assist trophies

This mode will allow players to control the game's bosses and assist trophies but they aren't balanced for competitive play. The bosses and trophies don't have any additional moves but the players can control what they do have. I loved being able to play as Master Hand in World of Light so this would be a cool expansion to that. For those wondering why Eggman wasn't on the roster, I think a new playable boss is the perfect spot for him since he wouldn't have to sacrifice the size of his huge mechs to be a normal character.

New side mode: Boss rush mode

Upgrade to Stage Builder:

In addition to adding many more parts and backgrounds for normal stages, you'll also have the option from the start to select whether you want the stage to be a normal stage, Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, or Race to the Finish. This way players can create their own character specific mini game stages and upload them online without Sakurai having to spend too much development time on it. You'll also be able to select spawn points for each option.

New co-op adventure platforming mode similar to Sub-Space Emissary

Final Thoughts:

I admit that this is probably all a little ambitious and possibly not completely realistic but this would be what I'd consider to be my dream Smash game. It will be interesting to see how much if any of this actually becomes a reality in the next Smash. So what do you think? Would you be happy with this roster and the modes, even if they might be slightly too ambitious? I don't expect everyone to agree with my choices and I admit that a good part of this is personal bias, but that's just part of the fun for me. It would be boring if we didn't each bring our own ideas and flare to the game.

I like this roster a lot. It kept my two favorite fighters (Ice Climbers and Sheik), and it added one of my most wanted fighters (Isaac), and the newcomer selection is a mixture of safe picks and oddballs. The only things that I question are the absence of Toon Link (I feel like the developers find a Child Link to be an important addition) and Mii Fighters (Nintendo’s avatars and Mii Costumes).

Regarding cuts, it’s really hard to estimate how many characters will return next game as the roster had continually expanded with minimal cuts. At the moment, I’m leaning towards 50 veterans give or take before echoes as this would give us a roster between the size of For and Ultimate. If I had to provide a list of fighters who would return even in the most dire scenarios, I think it would look something like this:

​

Outside of the bare minimum shown above, I feel confident that fighters like Ness, Ganondorf, Wario, Pokemon Trainer, King Dedede, Mega Man, Mii Fighters, and Ridley will return.

Given that we’re in the discussion of cuts, I’m curious how everyone would rate each character’s chances from a scale of one to five or one to ten where one represents very low chance and five/ten represents very high confidence. I’ll post mine later.

Pokemon and Fire Emblem are always going to the toughest ones to figure out since unlike most of the other first-party franchises in Smash, they're always introducing tons of new characters in practically each game, meaning Sakurai will probably pick from new characters while leaving out some of the older ones again going forward.

With that said, unless again, Smash gets a new director with a vastly different thought process and/or vision for the series, I don't think Pikachu and Marth are going anywhere any time soon. Both are considered the mascots of their respective franchises of origin and are hugely popular characters to this day, and more often than not, the developers of each franchise still find ways to make them relevant in their modern games in one way or another. I'm confident that they're safe for at least the next Smash, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're still around by at least a few more later entries.

I find these two franchises hard to figure out who would return because of the reasons above. I agree that Pikachu and Marth would remain as first choice for these franchises, but it gets more complex after that because the veterans have merits to stay. In the case of Pokemon, Mewtwo, Lucario, and Greninja are incredibly popular pokemon. Pokemon Trainer as a distinct gimmick and represents a few important elements related to Pokemon, and even if time constraints get in the way, Charizard is also incredibly popular. Jigglypuff is a relatively easy addition, and Incinoroar has a well liked moveset.
For Fire Emblem, Ike, Roy, Lucina, and Chrom are popular characters, Robin as a distinct gameplay mechanic, and Byleth brings forth a more contemporary choice from Fire Emblem’s peak.

 

[ScrubReborn]

I feel like Marth is kinda lumped into the original 12 as a character that they want to always be on the cast.

You can tell 'cause he was even supposed to be part of the real Original 12. (Well, if all the cut characters made it in, it would have been the Original 16 but y'know what I mean)

 

[Royaru]

Unless things change drastically, and when I say drastically I mean VERY drastically there are at least 15 franchises that will never disappear from Smash:
-Pokemon
-Mario
-Zelda
-Kirby
-Animal Crossing
-Splatoon
-Pikmin
-Metroid
-Xenoblade Chronicles
-Fire Emblem
These are the ten most active and important franchises from Nintendo today. Then we could add Donkey Kong, F-Zero, Star Fox, Earthbound and Kid Icarus for the legacy they have.
No protagonist or mascot of these franchises will miss a single Smash, and that is something we should all know by now.
In fact, if we start receiving Famicom Detective Club games every three years (as we have since 2021) and one ARMS per generation, don't be surprised if they join this list. Also, unless Nintendo removes Miis for good, I doubt they will disappear from Smash.

 

[Ivander]

So I recently read about the leaked dev diary from one of the Marvel vs Capcom 1 devs and man, while I'm sad there was no mention of Capcom characters, seeing all of the Marvel characters suggested and OK'd by Marvel was incredibly fascinating.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1hh9m0d/marvel_vs_capcom_1_dev_diary_has_been_found_many/

Spoiler: Basically, suggested characters include:

• The original proposed list was Captain America, Spider-Man, Hulk, Wolverine, Gambit, Psylocke, Thor, Dr. Doom, Juggernaut, Magneto and Thanos when it was internally known as Marvel Super Heroes 2.
• The list would later become Captain America, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Psylocke, Venom, Jubilee, Mr. Fantastic and Howard the Duck.
• OK'd characters at the time included Beast, Deathlok, Iron Fist, Quasar, Namor, Sasquatch, Machine Man, Elektra, Speedball, Spider-Woman, Medusa, Fin Fang Foom, Super Skrull, Wizard, Ultron, Diablo, Scorpion and Doc Ock. Out of all these, only 3 managed to appear in a future MvC title, being Iron Fist, Super Skrull and Ultron, with Doc Ock almost getting in MvC3.
• Psylocke was intended to be playable, but the arcade hardware they had prevented her from becoming one, so she became a partner. The Marvel characters that were really pushed for were Jubilee and Howard the Duck. Jubilee almost got in, but eventually, it was a choice between her and Venom and Venom was ultimately chosen over her. Meanwhile, despite alot of push and even a petition for Howard the Duck, Marvel kept saying no to him, probably because of the movie's reception.
  It sounds very odd on why quite a number of folks at Capcom wanted Howard the Duck, but remember that Capcom did do the ever popular Duck Tales game.
• In terms of final bosses, after Galactus was rejected, the first villain Marvel proposed was Loki, which Capcom saw the reasoning, but thought Japan wouldn't like him. Fin Fang Foom was the 2nd suggested by Marvel and aside from confusing the dev on why Iron Man wasn't allowed, but other characters associated with him were, the dev also wondered if Fin Fang was selected because Capcom had recently done a giant dragon boss for the DnD game, Shadow Over Mystara(they even pointed out the Marvel rep's enthusiasm around the dragon bit).
• After Fin Fang Foom, the dev started rapid-firing different popular Marvel villains to see which one Marvel would say yes to. Carnage was one of them, but got rejected. Eventually, Onslaught was mentioned and after a pause, checking with Marvel and getting back to them, Onslaught was approved and Capcom was relived it had worked out.

It's very fascinating looking at the details on the Marvel character choosing. Makes me very sad we didn't get any mention of Capcom characters suggested.

Looking at the list of characters that were OK'd and suggested, I'm legit curious, if Marvel and Capcom made a new MvC game, got and made for the game every character who was proposed throughout MvC history alongside the main and big guns(including the X-Men characters like Wolverine, Storm, Psylocke and whatnot) and used the tagline, "Every Character Proposed in MvC History is Here!", how much would you be on-board?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Psylocke was intended to be playable, but the arcade hardware they had prevented her from becoming one

How was that the case when she was playable in games that were on the same CPS2 hardware?

every character who was proposed throughout MvC history alongside the main and big guns(including the X-Men characters like Wolverine, Storm, Psylocke and whatnot) and used the tagline, "Every Character Proposed in MvC History is Here!"

So I suppose this means the complete MvC2/3/Infinite rosters plus all the planned characters like the ones in this leak, Doc Ock, the Fantastic Four, etc.? Because that would be a pretty massive roster, and they wouldn't have that many ways to reuse assets to make it possible outside of MvC3/Infinite/the Street Fighter games for the remaining SF reps.

 

[HyperSomari64]

So I recently read about the leaked dev diary from one of the Marvel vs Capcom 1 devs and man, while I'm sad there was no mention of Capcom characters, seeing all of the Marvel characters suggested and OK'd by Marvel was incredibly fascinating.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1hh9m0d/marvel_vs_capcom_1_dev_diary_has_been_found_many/

Spoiler: Basically, suggested characters include:

• The original proposed list was Captain America, Spider-Man, Hulk, Wolverine, Gambit, Psylocke, Thor, Dr. Doom, Juggernaut, Magneto and Thanos when it was internally known as Marvel Super Heroes 2.
• The list would later become Captain America, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Psylocke, Venom, Jubilee, Mr. Fantastic and Howard the Duck.
• OK'd characters at the time included Beast, Deathlok, Iron Fist, Quasar, Namor, Sasquatch, Machine Man, Elektra, Speedball, Spider-Woman, Medusa, Fin Fang Foom, Super Skrull, Wizard, Ultron, Diablo, Scorpion and Doc Ock. Out of all these, only 3 managed to appear in a future MvC title, being Iron Fist, Super Skrull and Ultron, with Doc Ock almost getting in MvC3.
• Psylocke was intended to be playable, but the arcade hardware they had prevented her from becoming one, so she became a partner. The Marvel characters that were really pushed for were Jubilee and Howard the Duck. Jubilee almost got in, but eventually, it was a choice between her and Venom and Venom was ultimately chosen over her. Meanwhile, despite alot of push and even a petition for Howard the Duck, Marvel kept saying no to him, probably because of the movie's reception.
  It sounds very odd on why quite a number of folks at Capcom wanted Howard the Duck, but remember that Capcom did do the ever popular Duck Tales game.
• In terms of final bosses, after Galactus was rejected, the first villain Marvel proposed was Loki, which Capcom saw the reasoning, but thought Japan wouldn't like him. Fin Fang Foom was the 2nd suggested by Marvel and aside from confusing the dev on why Iron Man wasn't allowed, but other characters associated with him were, the dev also wondered if Fin Fang was selected because Capcom had recently done a giant dragon boss for the DnD game, Shadow Over Mystara(they even pointed out the Marvel rep's enthusiasm around the dragon bit).
• After Fin Fang Foom, the dev started rapid-firing different popular Marvel villains to see which one Marvel would say yes to. Carnage was one of them, but got rejected. Eventually, Onslaught was mentioned and after a pause, checking with Marvel and getting back to them, Onslaught was approved and Capcom was relived it had worked out.

It's very fascinating looking at the details on the Marvel character choosing. Makes me very sad we didn't get any mention of Capcom characters suggested.

Looking at the list of characters that were OK'd and suggested, I'm legit curious, if Marvel and Capcom made a new MvC game, got and made for the game every character who was proposed throughout MvC history alongside the main and big guns(including the X-Men characters like Wolverine, Storm, Psylocke and whatnot) and used the tagline, "Every Character Proposed in MvC History is Here!", how much would you be on-board?

this post is better suited for the Social Thread. Not sure how is this related to Smash outside of Ryu and Meggy (Rock "Mega Man" Light, not the SMG4 one)

Edit: I know some of their moves originate from MvC, and Ryu's Palutena Guidance mentioning mutants and superheroes. But that's something of a lesser factor.

 

[Ivander]

How was that the case when she was playable in games that were on the same CPS2 hardware?

Space restrictions. Basically, they had space for her in previous games, but this time there wasn't enough space for her.

So I suppose this means the complete MvC2/3/Infinite rosters plus all the planned characters like the ones in this leak, Doc Ock, the Fantastic Four, etc.? Because that would be a pretty massive roster, and they wouldn't have that many ways to reuse assets to make it possible outside of MvC3/Infinite/the Street Fighter games for the remaining SF reps.

Hypothetically. Sure, there's no way it could actually happen without a whole lot of dev time and whatnot, but regardless, it'd be kinda cool if they actually went back to some of these characters who were proposed. I mean out of all of them, only Iron Fist, Ultron and Super Skrull got in a future game and the only 2 who just missed their marks were Doc Oct and Jubilee.

this post is better suited for the Social Thread. Not sure how is this related to Smash outside of Ryu and Meggy (Rock "Mega Man" Light, not the SMG4 one)

Edit: I know some of their moves originate from MvC, and Ryu's Palutena Guidance mentioning mutants and superheroes. But it's pretty minor representation.

Simple. We sometimes like talking about the characters who were proposed during Smash's history. Clefairy, Mach Rider, Urban Champion, Ayumi, the Forbidden 7 of Brawl, the Chorus Kids, etc. And what if Sakurai went back to them and brought them to a future game? It's not outright 1-to-1, but learning which characters almost got into a character-focused game is still fascinating, regardless on whether it's MvC or Smash Bros.

 

[Gengar84]

I like this roster a lot. It kept my two favorite fighters (Ice Climbers and Sheik), and it added one of my most wanted fighters (Isaac), and the newcomer selection is a mixture of safe picks and oddballs. The only things that I question are the absence of Toon Link (I feel like the developers find a Child Link to be an important addition) and Mii Fighters (Nintendo’s avatars and Mii Costumes).

Regarding cuts, it’s really hard to estimate how many characters will return next game as the roster had continually expanded with minimal cuts. At the moment, I’m leaning towards 50 veterans give or take before echoes as this would give us a roster between the size of For and Ultimate. If I had to provide a list of fighters who would return even in the most dire scenarios, I think it would look something like this:

​

Outside of the bare minimum shown above, I feel confident that fighters like Ness, Ganondorf, Wario, Pokemon Trainer, King Dedede, Mega Man, Mii Fighters, and Ridley will return.

Given that we’re in the discussion of cuts, I’m curious how everyone would rate each character’s chances from a scale of one to five or one to ten where one represents very low chance and five/ten represents very high confidence. I’ll post mine later.



I find these two franchises hard to figure out who would return because of the reasons above. I agree that Pikachu and Marth would remain as first choice for these franchises, but it gets more complex after that because the veterans have merits to stay. In the case of Pokemon, Mewtwo, Lucario, and Greninja are incredibly popular pokemon. Pokemon Trainer as a distinct gimmick and represents a few important elements related to Pokemon, and even if time constraints get in the way, Charizard is also incredibly popular. Jigglypuff is a relatively easy addition, and Incinoroar has a well liked moveset.
For Fire Emblem, Ike, Roy, Lucina, and Chrom are popular characters, Robin as a distinct gameplay mechanic, and Byleth brings forth a more contemporary choice from Fire Emblem’s peak.

Thanks, I’m glad you like it. I admit the roster isn’t going to appeal to everyone. I made a few controversial cuts in not even sure I’m happy with myself like Jigglypuff. I just wanted the roster to have enough exciting newcomers without being a completely unrealistic size. Cut about 6-12 from my base roster and make one or two more Fighter’s Passes and I think it’s at least feasible if still a bit optimistic. The goal was to excite as many different people as possible while still making the roster my own. Still, I understand that it’s impossible for any one roster to please everyone, especially if I factor in my own personal taste. If I didn’t try to mix in my own personal favorites, it would kill a lot of the fun for me and might end up looking too similar to everyone else’s.

One thing I tried to do with the Fighter’s passes is pay attention to what character is introduced when. For example, I think Jinx is kind of analogous to Joker’s position before his reveal. Both characters were pretty big pop culture breakouts at the peak of their popularity but neither were really on most people’s radar due to their lack of strong connection to Nintendo. That’s why I went with Jinx first since she’d be a fun surprise very few would see coming. Scorpion and Sora have a lot in common too (never thought I’d say that lol). What I mean is that both characters have huge fan bases and a lot of people would love to see them but feel they are impossible for one reason or another. I feel like, if they could work something out, Scorpion would bring the same level of hype and surprise Sora did for Ultimate.

I had a few goals with this roster. First and foremost, I wanted to cover both a lot of long time requests as well as oddball picks that I feel would be fun and exciting for Smash. Admittedly the latter category has a bit more personal bias in terms of character selection. I also wanted to bring in as many new game genres and character types as I could while expanding the pool of female characters, villains, and western characters. The goal of my roster is to really embrace the whole “celebration of gaming” description. To me, that doesn’t mean to only include the biggest and most popular franchises but also embrace a few smaller ones with either a strong historical legacy (to either Nintendo or gaming in general) or just would bring a really fun and unique character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I understand not wanting anyone to get cut, but sometimes I worry that bringing everyone back again and adding in newcomers might take up a little too much of the resources.

Smash is, like, Nintendo's 2nd largest series. They can afford to spend the resources.

That's...exactly what people who worry about them doing EIH again already worry about. That a repeat of bringing everyone back would be a repeat of the lack of Ultimate's base game newcomers.

Well they shouldn't be worried, because by the end of Ultimate's development, it had just as many newcomers as any other Smash game.

They lost out on nothing. They just had to wait longer to get it.

we all need to accept that this is just how games with big roster work.

I don't accept that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

They can afford to spend the resources.

But they won't. Because Nintendo games don't have AAA budgets. That's one reason why they aren't in as dire of a situation as Sony or MS's gaming departments.

 

[dream1ng]

Smash is, like, Nintendo's 2nd largest series. They can afford to spend the resources.

It's not a question of if they can, it's a question of whether their typical budget will yield them their typical windfall. And it will. That's why they never need to spend as much as the other guys.

Because people are still going to be buying Smash even if it has several dozen characters instead of all possible veterans. You're not sacrificing big numbers by not bringing everyone back, because the audience will be there regardless.