Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

ARMS fans are more likely to get a new game than us Project x Zone fans at least.

SHHHH

He'll hear you.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Phoenix Wright ever gets into Smash, I'd love to hear at least one or two remixes from both Noriyuki Iwadare and Masafumi Takada.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think it'd be pretty amusing if they used the Hatsune Miku vocaloid program to make a remix in a smash game. Miku is technically a game character in the absolute loosest sense imaginable so it wouldn't really be OUT of place.

 

[ninjahmos]

I think it'd be pretty amusing if they used the Hatsune Miku vocaloid program to make a remix in a smash game. Miku is technically a game character in the absolute loosest sense imaginable so it wouldn't really be OUT of place.

Imagine if they used Vocaloid to remix one or two SEGA songs for Smash…

I mean, SEGA seems to love Hatsune Miku, and Project DIVA is one of their most prominent franchises, so it wouldn't be impossible.

 

[DarthEnderX]

WayForward literally showed off their next Shantae game in Nintendo's own indie branded "Indieworld"

shrug I can't help it if Nintendo is also wrong.

If a company of over 100 employees still counts as "indie" than the term has lost all meaning.

The number of employees doesn't define whether or not they're an indie company, it's the fact that they're not owned by a AAA company (or any other company) that does.

An indie developer is a person or small team creating software, apps, games, or other digital products without the support of a large company or publisher.

Over 100 employees is not a small team. WayForward doesn't have the support of a large company or publisher because they are one.

 

[cashregister9]

If a company of over 100 employees still counts as "indie" than the term has lost all meaning.

The term lost meaning years ago tbh.

It's such a muddied term nowadays that seems to be used based entirely on vibes and aesthetics more than anything.

 

[ninjahmos]

Indie just means independently owned, simple as that. Indie studios often are made up of small teams, sometimes even solo developers, but they don't have to be.

Just because WayForward is successful doesn't make them not an independent company.

 

[DarthEnderX]

looks at Terry's showcase with how much he talked about SNK's history and whatnot

Yeah but Sakurai is an SNK superfan.

Does he have that same passion for MK?

Aww yee, Smoke time.

So... It's almost been ten years since ARMS had a game.

Do we call it dead?

A franchise is dead/dormant when it misses a console generation. ARMS has, like, another 7 years till then.

Indie just means independently owned, simple as that.

No it doesn't.

If it did, companies like Valve, Epic and Tencent would count as "indie devs".

Just because WayForward is successful doesn't make them not an independent company.

Correct. The size of their staff makes them not an independent company.

 

[Ivander]

Yeah but Sakurai is an SNK superfan.

Does he have that same passion for MK?

We're talking about a man who has a copy of frickin' Battle Monsters. Even if he might not be super into something, the man clearly has a huge passion for fighting games, and video games in general, and he's more than capable of putting in the effort into the characters he showcases. I'm positive he would put in the passion for something like Mortal Kombat, even if it's something not familiar to his country.

 

[ninjahmos]

No it doesn't.

If it did, companies like Valve, Epic and Tencent would count as "indie devs".

Correct. The size of their staff makes them not an independent company.

Obligatory text

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Technically Smash is an indie game as Sakurai's personal studio was in charge of the whole thing

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

We're talking about a man who has a copy of frickin' Battle Monsters. Even if he might not be super into something, the man clearly has a huge passion for fighting games, and video games in general, and he's more than capable of putting in the effort into the characters he showcases. I'm positive he would put in the passion for something like Mortal Kombat, even if it's something not familiar to his country.

If Mortal Kombat ever got into Smash, I'm sure Sakurai would figure out something to show it off in an engaging way like he has for every other character showcase.

With that said, and apologies if I missed a hypothetical somewhere in the previous pages, but my main concern with MK in Smash is that I don't know how it shakes out legally speaking, because if Mortal Kombat can't legally be sold in Japan and Sakurai and his team are Japanese devs, would someone along the chain of command be like "hey whoa, you can't do that, those games are banned"? Like I don't know if MK characters have been in crossovers that were able to be sold in Japan, and I don't really want to rain on anyone's parade if they really want someone like Scorpion or Sub-Zero, but like...

And as another concern (though not my main one), even if they could, while I'm sure they could figure out a moveset that works in the confines of Smash Bros., I still feel like it'd be kinda weird not having a Fatality somewhere but that'd be a hard sell in a Nintendo published game and just using something like a Friendship makes me think about how most people generally don't like MK vs DC because of them kinda doing the same thing, among other reasons lol

 

[Undella2]

If Mortal Kombat ever got into Smash, I'm sure Sakurai would figure out something to show it off in an engaging way like he has for every other character showcase.

With that said, and apologies if I missed a hypothetical somewhere in the previous pages, but my main concern with MK in Smash is that I don't know how it shakes out legally speaking, because if Mortal Kombat can't legally be sold in Japan and Sakurai and his team are Japanese devs, would someone along the chain of command be like "hey whoa, you can't do that, those games are banned"? Like I don't know if MK characters have been in crossovers that were able to be sold in Japan, and I don't really want to rain on anyone's parade if they really want someone like Scorpion or Sub-Zero, but like...

And as another concern (though not my main one), even if they could, while I'm sure they could figure out a moveset that works in the confines of Smash Bros., I still feel like it'd be kinda weird not having a Fatality somewhere but that'd be a hard sell in a Nintendo published game and just using something like a Friendship makes me think about how most people generally don't like MK vs DC because of them kinda doing the same thing, among other reasons lol

For a "Fatality", could there be someway of artistically censoring it a la Joker replacing the blood coming out of the hit target(s) in his all out attack / final smash with stars?

 

[BrawlX10]

Indie just means independently owned, simple as that. Indie studios often are made up of small teams, sometimes even solo developers, but they don't have to be.

Just because WayForward is successful doesn't make them not an independent company.

A bit unrelated but i wonder if any indie company of today will "evolove" to become a AAA company in the future.

ALSO unrelated (Yup, i'm off-topic mood today lol), I fought the Tempo spirit and his pupet fighter is....Fox? I apreciate the team's creativity but honestly...that's honestly a bit of strech lol. Is there any spirit battles were you think the fighter isn't that fitting or there's a character in the roster that would fit better?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

For a "Fatality", could there be someway of artistically censoring it a la Joker replacing the blood coming out of the hit target(s) in his all out attack / final smash with stars?

In Scorpion's classic fatality, he incinerates the fighter to their skeleton, so there's not any blood involved.

In Sub Zero's, he rips the opponents head off with their spinal column still attached. Aside from the first person camera version in Injustice 2 for a victory screen, it's very hard to imagine a way to censor a move like that for Smash. Alternatively, there is a censored fatality where he freezes the opponent into a statue then Smashes it, which is much less iconic but bloodless.

I think the violence issue is overstated for MK. The game can't be sold in Japan because of it and that is definitely the single biggest thing keeping an inclusion away from the game, but the characters themselves have been depicted without it and looking at their classic moveset designs, I genuinely can't think of anything aside from that one Sub Zero fatal they do that would be considered off limits. It's naturally hard to imagine a character who partakes in ultraviolence shacking it up with Mario, but after Doomguy married Isabelle, I feel like the series' nonexistence in Japan is the far bigger wall.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

For a "Fatality", could there be someway of artistically censoring it a la Joker replacing the blood coming out of the hit target(s) in his all out attack / final smash with stars?

I mean there's some you could MAYBE use? Like the one in Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 where Scorpion summons a bunch of clones and they just maul the opponent after the screen goes dark, like you could just have it be the copies beating up the opponent a la Final Smashes like Ike or Cloud instead of just turning the lights off?

There's also technically the original one where he removes his mask, revealing a skull, and spitting a fireball that immolates the opponent, but like without the immolation leading to death I feel like that one's just kinda lame because it'd be an entire Final Smash just to spit a fireball at someone lol

Sub-Zero is a lot of head-ripping, tearing in half, and shattering, none of which I think Nintendo would be very keen on happening to Mario, and the only one that might work as far as I can see out of the games that actually might have been sold in Japan at one point is him shooting an ice ball at someone that blows them up from the inside, but again, without the death part it's a Final Smash just to shoot an explosive ice ball lmao

 

[cashregister9]

I mean the answer to the Fatality question is obvious

Just use the friendships

 

[Kirbeh]

I mean the answer to the Fatality question is obvious

Just use the friendships

Basically this, but there's room for a few others too.

Babalities, as unpopular as they were in actual MK feel like they'd fit better in Smash. It'd only apply to a select number of characters, but you could pay homage to the Yoshi games as well. all have baby versions. Then they could get bubbled like in Yoshi's Island and float off screen into the blast zone.

You could potentially do inverse animalities as well. Rather than turning into an animal themselves, Scrop/Sub would turn the opponent into a harmless animal. Off the top of my head this has even less instances of stuff you could actually reference but there is Bunny Link from ALttP. Maybe apply the Frog spell to ? Or if you want to go really out there, this is where Nintendogs/cats get some unexpected representation by using the breeds featured in those games as transformations.

Otherwise, a generic Friendship that can be applied to all opponents or Smash original finishers seem like the most efficient way to go.

 

[DarthEnderX]

For a "Fatality", could there be someway of artistically censoring it a la Joker replacing the blood coming out of the hit target(s) in his all out attack / final smash with stars?

Both Scorpion and Sub-Zero have non-bloody Fatalities. Scorpion's original "pull off my mask and breath fire" Fatality. And Sub-Zero's SNES "Freeze you solid then shatter you" Fatality.

 

[Idon]

Arguments about how realistic any Mortal Kombat character are aside,
Two things:

One, if we're going to add someone like that, they're not going to use an intentionally comedic inversion of fatality like friendship or babality or animality or whatever for the final smash. It'd be like saying Bayonetta nudity would be too much so they'd dress her up in Pajamas instead. Compromises can easily be made so that we're not doing the quite literal opposite of the thing a character is known for.

Two, Smash is really no stranger to just making **** up if they need to. A sizable amount of final smashes are just original or heavily adapted. This applies to 3rd Party characters too like Terry or Sora. I could easily see them adapting a well-known move or moves and making it flashier and simply using that for a final smash.

 

[Garo]

Terry's Final Smash is just three of his moves stringed together (hence Triple Wolf) so I don't see why they couldn't do the same with Scorpion. Something like teleport punches into "Get over here" into fire breath.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I still feel like it'd be kinda weird not having a Fatality somewhere but that'd be a hard sell in a Nintendo published game and just using something like a Friendship makes me think about how most people generally don't like MK vs DC because of them kinda doing the same thing, among other reasons lol

If Scorpion, use Toasty! (aka the flaming skull breath) That's easy to keep PG while still being a Fatality.

If someone else, they can make **** up. Look at Injustice for examples.

Correct. The size of their staff makes them not an independent company.

The fact that they still work on games from other companies like Nintendo and Arc System Works shows they are not fully sustainable on their own and needs the money of bigger corpos to stay afloat, all without being owned by any of them.

I'd say that's enough to consider them "indie", regardless of staff size.

You might argue it makes them more "dependent" in terms of how they work but they are still owned and ran independently.

I mean the answer to the Fatality question is obvious

Just use the friendships

Friendships feel like victory screen stuff. Bonus points if they get an MK announcer to say "Friendship? Friendship!"

Would be odd for a Final Smash to be the Scorpion Doll, if you ask me.

Terry's Final Smash is just three of his moves stringed together (hence Triple Wolf) so I don't see why they couldn't do the same with Scorpion. Something like teleport punches into "Get over here" into fire breath.

Being fair, combining moves together to form one super is a classic SNK staple so it makes total sense as a Final Smash for Terry. Heck, even recently, Street Fighter 6 combined Rising Tackle and Buster Wolf for his level 3.

Not saying it wouldn't for Scorpion, just explaining why Terry's is the way it is.

Technically Smash is an indie game as Sakurai's personal studio was in charge of the whole thing

Having Bandai Namco as part of the development team strips it away of any right to be called an indie game. And before Namco joined in, HAL was involved in the making of 64, Melee and Brawl, with the first two predating Sakurai going freelance.

Smash was never an indie game, but it does involve an indie studio as its director. There's a difference.

By your logic, the Advance Wars reboot and the River City Girls series are indie games.

 

[Gengar84]

Both Scorpion and Sub-Zero have non-bloody Fatalities. Scorpion's original "pull off my mask and breath fire" Fatality. And Sub-Zero's SNES "Freeze you solid then shatter you" Fatality.

Yeah, I think they’d likely go with these ideas for the Final Smashes and make any minor adjustments they need to keep it in the age rating. I don’t really see it as a big issue at all. MK characters worked fine in Injustice with toned down violence.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Re: is Shantae/WF indie

Wayforward is interesting in that its definitely an independent studio, but it's a) size and b) fact that they spend a lot of if not the majority of their time doing series revivals for big aaa companies make it hard to put it in the same indie box as say, among us or undertale, the poster children for the "this microscopic team made a genre-defining game in their basement" phenomenon that is oft-romanticized.

While I do think that a lot of the people saying that wayforward/shantae isn't a good blanket indie representative are kinda just running off a core of not liking the character/games and are working towards justifications from there (would they be this iffy about Hades despite Supergiant being just as large a workforce and having iffy morals re: their refusal to sign interim strike contracts for their VAs)... I can't blame anyone for saying the circumstances that have kept Shantae at least somewhat in the picture since the turn of the millennium are different from that of Touhou or Undertale. She's kinda firmly on the opposite end of a perceived spectrum that the aforementioned among us or Balatro occupies the other endpoint of, to the point that she almost feels like Arika's Skullomania to me when I try to compare her in my mind to other longstanding small studios that originated in that time period.

Though even then I know that everything I just wrote is once again colored by me not liking Shantae's games or her character design. Like, I like shovel knight and I'd want him in smash, but he's created by ex-wayforward staff and Lord knows they were downright corporate about shoehorning a cameo of him into all sorts of indie games.

TLDR; she's indie, but not really in the way that something like Balatro or touhou is, and conflating the two feels weird to me.

Re: MK in smash

Ridley's trailer showed that Capcom will let smash do silhouetted gore to mega man.

Sephiroth's trailer showed that Nintendo will let the guy spear Mario, even if it's just a silhouetted fake out.

Truly, this can be extrapolated to say that if a mk character gets in, their trailer will have them do a silhouetted fatality on Ryu or another iconic Nintendo character. I am not taking criticism on this sound logic.

 

[Gengar84]

My memory is a bit foggy but has any reveal trailer for a third party character heavily featured a different third party character from another company? I know Bayonetta was briefly in Sephiroth’s trailer but don’t remember if that’s as far as it’s gone. I ask because I feel like that would be the perfect opportunity to play off the whole Street Fighter vs Mortal Kombat dream matchup. That would be a cool angle for Scorpion and Sub-Zero’s trailers but I’m not sure if that’s something Capcom would be cool with.

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

That would be a cool angle for Scorpion and Sub-Zero’s trailers but I’m not sure if that’s something Capcom would be cool with.

It's a bit different but Kazuya's character poster heavily implied he defeated Ryu, and I imagine Capcom had to sign off on that. I'm sure they'd be fine with Ryu sparring with Scorpion.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

MK characters worked fine in Injustice with toned down violence.

And that series, as should be pointed out, was made by the very same people who made Mortal Kombat.

This shows they are not only more than fine with crossover appearances toning down the violence and removing the gore, but also that they are fine with doing it themselves.

And Smash can still get away with a brutal moveset as long as it’s not bloody or dismembery (look at Ridley for proof), so the violence was never an issue.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I just want to point out that in UMK3, Scorpion has a Fatality called Klones that's not even shown onscreen. It's basically his own version of the Raging Demon. So that's one Fatality they probably can use if he gets in Smash.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I just want to point out that in UMK3, Scorpion has a Fatality called Klones that's not even shown onscreen. It's basically his own version of the Raging Demon. So that's one Fatality they probably can use for Scorpion if he gets in Smash.

Still think they’ll use Toasty for Scorpion because it’s too damn iconic.

It also happens to work very well at being censorable without feeling like we lose the brutality of it. It still feels very MK even if we don’t see a burnt skeleton.

With that said, the Klones would still be hilarious.

 

[MBRedboy31]

The way I’m imagining Sub-Zero’s Fatality being reimagined is that he grabs the opponent, they freeze, he lifts them up by the neck (kind of like Ganondorf side B,) then he slowly and powerfully closes his hand, making the opponent explode into a bunch of ice shards that fly all over the screen. Brutal, but still censored.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Still think they’ll use Toasty for Scorpion because it’s too damn iconic.

It also happens to work very well at being censorable without feeling like we lose the brutality of it. It still feels very MK even if we don’t see a burnt skeleton.

With that said, the Klones would still be hilarious.

They could still use Toasty. In fact, there's already a censored version of that in MKvsDC. I was just pointing out how Klones is one of the safest Fatalities to use because it's already self-censored.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Still think they’ll use Toasty for Scorpion because it’s too damn iconic.

It also happens to work very well at being censorable without feeling like we lose the brutality of it. It still feels very MK even if we don’t see a burnt skeleton.

With that said, the Klones would still be hilarious.

Maybe Toasty could be like Bayonetta's Final Smash where it just instant-kills at a certain percent, to give that same effect of a burnt skeleton.

 

[Will]

It seems all of my years of Mortal Kombat propaganda are finally paying off in here

 

[Gengar84]

It seems all of my years of Mortal Kombat propaganda are finally paying off in here

Lol seems like it. Sub-Zero has always been in my top 10 most wanted characters. I just think the MK ninjas are so cool. The gore and violence doesn’t really factor in. If anything, I wish the series would tone it down a bit so it could actually get released in Japan. The gore was never the reason I liked the characters. Maybe something closer to Bayonetta or DOOM levels would be fine.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Lol seems like it. Sub-Zero has always been in my top 10 most wanted characters. I just think the MK ninjas are so cool. The gore and violence doesn’t really factor in. If anything, I wish the series would tone it down a bit so it could actually get released in Japan. The gore was never the reason I liked the characters. Maybe something closer to Bayonetta or DOOM levels would be fine.

Honestly Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are just as violent as the NetherRealm Mortal Kombat Games. It's just that Doom does the gore on fantasy style demons whereas Mortal Kombat has the gore on a lot of human/humanoid characters.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The fact that they still work on games from other companies like Nintendo and Arc System Works shows they are not fully sustainable on their own and needs the money of bigger corpos to stay afloat, all without being owned by any of them.

I'd say that's enough to consider them "indie", regardless of staff size.

So...when Bandai Namco works on Smash Bros. for Nintendo...that makes Bandai Namco an indie company?

While I do think that a lot of the people saying that wayforward/shantae isn't a good blanket indie representative are kinda just running off a core of not liking the character/games and are working towards justifications from there

I'm definitely not. I'd like to see Shantae as a Fighter. And I think being considered an indie character would hurt her chances, not improve them.

Being a "beloved character from a long running, currently active platformer series" rep does more for her chances than just being an "indie rep", since being and indie rep hasn't helped anyone so far.

 

[BrawlX10]

I wonder if Dantes trailer will include Bayonetta.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

My memory is a bit foggy but has any reveal trailer for a third party character heavily featured a different third party character from another company? I know Bayonetta was briefly in Sephiroth’s trailer but don’t remember if that’s as far as it’s gone. I ask because I feel like that would be the perfect opportunity to play off the whole Street Fighter vs Mortal Kombat dream matchup. That would be a cool angle for Scorpion and Sub-Zero’s trailers but I’m not sure if that’s something Capcom would be cool with.

The main thing I remember is Sonic being the one that punched Mario into that Minecraft cave, which is why people made memes where Sonic is like "THAT'S IT, YOU'RE GOING TO MINECRAFT", but that part of the trailer is all just done in gameplay rather than a cinematic.

Aside from that, all I can think of from the cinematic ones is Sephiroth's trailer briefly having Richter, Sonic, Banjo, and Bayonetta in it.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Aside from that, all I can think of from the cinematic ones is Sephiroth's trailer briefly having Richter, Sonic, Banjo, and Bayonetta in it.

Also .

Terry was also briefly part of Steve's among the fighters Mario was up against.

Sonic, Pac-Man, and Mega Man were also in the group shot at the end of Banjo's.


But none of these are examples of "heavily featured" like proposed for Scorpion's hypothetical trailer with Ryu or Dante's with Bayonetta.

Like the only one that comes to mind is Cloud being a major part of Sephiroth's....but that's because they're from the same game lol.

 

[smashkirby]

Who's is your number one dark horse Pic.I think Travis touchdown has a decent shot of being in the next smash tbh

Man, who DOESN'T fall under this label for me? Outside of Bandana Waddle Dee, Dixie Kong, Chun-Li, and a few others? The majority of characters I'd like are almost certainly dark-horse picks (and that's if they're even THAT lucky).

So to come up with someone who actually might have a shot, at least one day...? I'll go with Mona from WarioWare. I feel like a lot of folks count her out a bit too quick. I'll admit her moveset potential isn't AS instantly notable as Ashley, but I think a combination of her boomerang, some attacks inspired by multiple microgames, and her pets assisting her in some of her attacks would make for a fairly unique character who pays homage to WarioWare's wacky nature.

Aside from Mona, I'd probably say Cynthia from Pokémon. I don't know what it is, but I feel like she's been getting pushed a LOT more in recent years, and I DO think that if Smash Bros. were to ever add a Pokémon CHAMPION as a playable character? Cynthia's almost definitely going to be that champion. Hey, it'd be fun to rampage in a battle as her Garchomp.

ALSO unrelated (Yup, i'm off-topic mood today lol), I fought the Tempo spirit and his pupet fighter is....Fox? I apreciate the team's creativity but honestly...that's honestly a bit of strech lol. Is there any spirit battles were you think the fighter isn't that fitting or there's a character in the roster that would fit better?

Not that the character isn't fitting, but I feel like the Nick (Captain Rainbow) spirit battle was missing Little Mac as an additional fighter (alongside Captain Falcon).