Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

(I have no idea why you decided to arbitrarily cut it off at 2009 btw)

Similar time frame to Xenoblade's existence?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

We still need an Antarctica region. The three starters (and half of the Pokedex) will all be Ice-type.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

We still need an Antarctica region. The three starters (and half of the Pokedex) will all be Ice-type.

You can do the same thing with Canada, giving us a region that, visually speaking, is not just ice, ice and more ice

 

[Guynamednelson]

You can do the same thing with Canada, giving us a region that, visually speaking, is not just ice, ice and more ice

We already had a Stantler evolution, we don't need another.

But we do need a way to get Wyrdeer without importing one from PLA because the evolution code is broken for Stantler.

 

[BackseatSakurai]

Similar time frame to Xenoblade's existence?

Oh. That's a bad comparison though - Other M and Dread have been the only core entry (not remakes or ports) since then.
Either way, I feel like Metroid is the worst possible comparison because Metroid is inarguably one of the most influential games of all time. I don't have to explain that to anyone dorky enough to be on this board.

It's really not about sales, and as enlightening as the "Forgotten Land almost outsold the entire Xenoblade series" type of tidbits are, it muddies the conversation because people inevitably hone in on that and try to do gotchas with comparative sales numbers - Kid Icarus, another ridiculous example (GameBoy game never even released in Japan and has unknown sales metrics, there's decades between the first two games and Uprising, etc) - it's all very reductive but bringing up sales at all opens you up to that I suppose.

For me personally, I'll say I think the game is bad and at best a footnote in the larger conversation of JRPGs. You can delete the Xenoblade node off of the larger web of gaming and nothing else feels disconnected or nonsensical without it existing and providing context for it. This is 15 years after the original game launched - not a hint of influence on anything. (No, MonolithSoft working on BOTW doesn't count, because Xenoblade didn't invent boring open-world games, as much as its fans would love to pretend it did).

 

[fogbadge]

You can do the same thing with Canada, giving us a region that, visually speaking, is not just ice, ice and more ice

strictly speaking galar should have been all water types

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

For me personally, I'll say I think the game is bad and at best a footnote in the larger conversation of JRPGs. You can delete the Xenoblade node off of the larger web of gaming and nothing else feels disconnected or nonsensical without it existing and providing context for it. This is 15 years after the original game launched - not a hint of influence on anything. (No, MonolithSoft working on BOTW doesn't count, because Xenoblade didn't invent boring open-world games, as much as its fans would love to pretend it did).

Perhaps, but at the end of the day, it is still a decently successful franchise whose individual games on Switch either outsold or, in the case of Three Houses, kept up with individual Fire Emblem games in the same console.

Even if sales aren't everything, this degree of success can't be fully ignored so Xenoblade more than earned its right to remain as part of the Smash roster.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you're right in believing it doesn't deserve to stick around. That's called gatekeeping and people generally don't like being gatekept.

 

[Louie G.]

I think there's a pretty cut and dry answer about how valuable Xenoblade is to Nintendo, and that's demonstrated through their satisfaction in its growth. Nintendo clearly sees it as a success and it seems odd to die on the hill that suggests otherwise, when there are official graphics like this to prove its worth.

Doesn't mean Xenoblade is the most important series ever, doesn't mean I think it's "holiday title" material if that's how this conversation started, but it's been performing well in Nintendo's eyes and that's all it needs to do. To see it listed among these other monumental franchises in no danger of going anywhere anytime soon should probably speak to the series' staying power. I don't really know what contrary argument there would be to that.

 

[Kirbeh]

Oh. That's a bad comparison though - Other M and Dread have been the only core entry (not remakes or ports) since then.
Either way, I feel like Metroid is the worst possible comparison because Metroid is inarguably one of the most influential games of all time. I don't have to explain that to anyone dorky enough to be on this board.

It's really not about sales, and as enlightening as the "Forgotten Land almost outsold the entire Xenoblade series" type of tidbits are, it muddies the conversation because people inevitably hone in on that and try to do gotchas with comparative sales numbers - Kid Icarus, another ridiculous example (GameBoy game never even released in Japan and has unknown sales metrics, there's decades between the first two games and Uprising, etc) - it's all very reductive but bringing up sales at all opens you up to that I suppose.

For me personally, I'll say I think the game is bad and at best a footnote in the larger conversation of JRPGs. You can delete the Xenoblade node off of the larger web of gaming and nothing else feels disconnected or nonsensical without it existing and providing context for it. This is 15 years after the original game launched - not a hint of influence on anything. (No, MonolithSoft working on BOTW doesn't count, because Xenoblade didn't invent boring open-world games, as much as its fans would love to pretend it did).

You don't like the series? Cool.

Do you really have to harp on about so it much though? It's obnoxious.

I haven't even played the games so I can't really speak on their quality or lack thereof but from your posts, half the problem seems to be some weird personal beef you have with the fanbase.

I'm sorry you had some bad experiences with some of their fans, every fanbase has it's bad apples. You don't come off much better though.

You're entitled to your opinion but stuff like "I'll say it's bad every opportunity I get" and "the fans are fragile and can't handle criticism" isn't going to do you any favors. It makes you sound petty and unreasonable (and pot calling the kettle black on that last one based on how you reacted to people critizing your roster.)

 

[DarthEnderX]

View attachment 401270

I think that chart really just shows how good the Switch is for any games released on it. And XB has had 3 games released on it.

 

[BackseatSakurai]

Do you really have to harp on about so it much though?

Yes. And if I'm "unreasonable" in a conversation where it's deemed reasonable to compare Xenoblade to Metroid, I'm happy to wear that hat.

 

[Louie G.]

I think that chart really just shows how good the Switch is for any games released on it. And XB has had 3 games released on it.

Sure yeah, but they chose to emphasize Xenoblade. We can split hairs on why it reached this level of success, I'm personally not trying to say it's as successful as most of these other series but it's something Nintendo has apparently taken notice of and has some pride in. If it was simply about "any games" then they could have went with... I dunno, WarioWare or something.

In any case, I just don't see the value in this argument. I'd be willing to approach this on the appropriate level if there was a point to make beyond thinking the games are bad and being annoyed by the fans, but apparently that constitutes removing the series from Smash altogether. Which is just delusional, frankly. Would be one thing if the series absolutely plummeted in sales and reputation during the Switch era but that just isn't the case at all. This is coming from someone with no attachment to the series, I've played maybe an hour of Xenoblade 1.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yes. And if I'm "unreasonable" in a conversation where it's deemed reasonable to compare Xenoblade to Metroid, I'm happy to wear that hat.

What's unreasonable is you denying the fact that like most franchises, Xenoblade saw a lot of growth on the Switch, with your entire argument being entirely based around "I don't like it"

It's fine to not like a franchise, but to try and say it's hot garbage that doesn't sell relative to its genre (which is factually untrue to begin with) because you don't like it is not what I'd call good reasoning.

 

[Ivander]

I think that chart really just shows how good the Switch is for any games released on it. And XB has had 3 games released on it.

4 games. Xenoblade Remake, Xenoblade X Remake, Xenoblade 2 and Xenoblade 3. Technically 5 because of Torna getting a stand-alone release.

 

[BackseatSakurai]

What's unreasonable is you denying the fact that like most franchises, Xenoblade saw a lot of growth on the Switch

Hold on - never denied this. Of course it did. But it's still getting dogwalked by stuff like Pikmin - which, despite being one of my favorite Nintendo IP, is undeniably a niche series. My central point is that Xenoblade's importance is overstated. That's not the same as saying it hasn't grown.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hold on - never denied this. Of course it did. But it's still getting dogwalked by stuff like Pikmin - which, despite being one of my favorite Nintendo IP, is undeniably a niche series. My central point is that Xenoblade's importance is overstated. That's not the same as saying it hasn't grown.

I would actually argue it's hard to call Pikmin niche these days. That IP blew up on Switch to the same degree Xenoblade did.

 

[fogbadge]

Yes. And if I'm "unreasonable" in a conversation where it's deemed reasonable to compare Xenoblade to Metroid, I'm happy to wear that hat.

what’s unreasonable is how every time you say you don’t like something you feel the need to insult everyone who does like it

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You can delete the Xenoblade node off of the larger web of gaming and nothing else feels disconnected or nonsensical without it existing and providing context for it. This is 15 years after the original game launched - not a hint of influence on anything. (No, MonolithSoft working on BOTW doesn't count, because Xenoblade didn't invent boring open-world games, as much as its fans would love to pretend it did).

Xenoblade is like one of the big RPG franchises people recommended to others, along with Final Fantasy, Persona and the like.

Where is the idea that it's virtually invisible come from?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Really regretting bringing up sales numbers tbh. I wasn't trying to demean Xenoblade to a historical irrelevance, I was just trying to illustrate that people show up for Kirby when the game is a big enough deal.

I think there's a bit too much bias caught up in this conversation for me to want to get caught in the middle of it, though I did start the discussion. Xenoblade isn't approaching the top of Nintendo's IP list, but the fact it's even on the list at all is a testament to how much its grown. Besides, getting upset over Smash inclusions that happened two games ago is the same as crying over spilt milk to me. Shulk happened, Pyra and Mythra happened, and at least the former is basically guaranteed to return come Smash 6.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

esides, getting upset over Smash inclusions that happened two games ago is the same as crying over spilt milk to me.

If only Corrin haters got the memo...

 

[Louie G.]

Hold on - never denied this. Of course it did. But it's still getting dogwalked by stuff like Pikmin - which, despite being one of my favorite Nintendo IP, is undeniably a niche series. My central point is that Xenoblade's importance is overstated. That's not the same as saying it hasn't grown.

I think multiple things can be true, that advocating for Xenoblade to be guaranteed a new character every game or treating like an A-list IP is overstating its cultural significance but acknowledging that it's grown into a series deemed significant and successful by Nintendo itself, and has a place in a game like Smash.

To be transparent with you, I think Xenoblade is a bit overemphasized as well. It's not a very big series, it's moving a respectable amount of units but nothing too crazy, but it's often treated with entitlement to one or even two new characters next game on top of the 2-3 it already has. I feel like we're moving a little too fast on it and it's in a comfortable spot right now. But for a series like this to see three major releases, to get two remasters on Switch, to be cited as a success story in official figures, at least speaks to Xenoblade's growing importance to Nintendo and likely continued relevance into the next console cycle.

I guess the pitfall in this conversation is trying to equate one series to another. Clearly Metroid's history puts it in a unique position. Clearly series like Kirby and Pikmin have greater mascot appeal. This is a case of differing demographics, lack of seniority, a number of factors that make the expectations surrounding Xenoblade presumably less than that of a cute mascot platformer or legacy IP. But as far as "contemporary" Nintendo series go it's in a respectable position, behind the likes of Splatoon but one of their more consistent and critically acclaimed IP in recent years. Xenoblade 2 achieved over 2.5 million, pretty impressive off the heels of a niche cult classic, while Xenoblade 3 was nominated for GOTY. And I think Nintendo likes having something of a signature JRPG.

At the end of the day I think these kind of arguments are circular. Subject A things this series is really important, Subject B thinks it isn't. And then we toss sales figures at each other, and talk about seniority and relevance and what have you, and at the end of the day Smash just does what it does and shows that series some love anyway. Because Sakurai isn't gonna look at Shulk and Pyra / Mythra and say "well, they're no Samus and Ridley".

 

[Kirbeh]

Yes. And if I'm "unreasonable" in a conversation where it's deemed reasonable to compare Xenoblade to Metroid, I'm happy to wear that hat.

If you want to compare sales and genre influence all day, be my guest, that's not what people have a problem with.

It's your attitude.

The crux of the conversation is that you dislike Xenoblade, so you're looking for anything you can to justify saying it should be removed.

No one is going to entertain this.

Again, you can have whatever opinion you like and have your own standards for what you think should be in Smash. Everyone thinks differently.

But you're not going to convince anyone on a point born from an irrational vendetta against the series (and apparently their fans.)

This is Smashboards. You've got a crossover of all of Nintendo's fans here. You can't just display open contempt for something people like (and the people that like that thing) and expect others to play along no questions asked.

 

[Opossum]

I think there's a pretty cut and dry answer about how valuable Xenoblade is to Nintendo, and that's demonstrated through their satisfaction in its growth. Nintendo clearly sees it as a success and it seems odd to die on the hill that suggests otherwise, when there are official graphics like this to prove its worth.

View attachment 401270

Doesn't mean Xenoblade is the most important series ever, doesn't mean I think it's "holiday title" material if that's how this conversation started, but it's been performing well in Nintendo's eyes and that's all it needs to do. To see it listed among these other monumental franchises in no danger of going anywhere anytime soon should probably speak to the series' staying power. I don't really know what contrary argument there would be to that.

Honestly the thing everyone seems to be missing here is the implication that Federation Force bombed even worse than what was thought.

We know Samus Returns is approaching, and is almost at, but isn't yet at one million units sold. And because this tallies all 3DS and Wii U titles, that means that Federation Force didn't even move the needle for the series.

 

[SnakeFighter64]

Idea: what if they did Dixie with a lot of her bones coming from Diddy Kong, but she also has Kiddy Kong follow her around like a Luma so she can do DKC3’s team up moves with him and give her more versatility since she doesn’t have the DK64 weaponry DK and Diddy do. And then the final Smash can be a reference to DKC3’s ending with the Mother Banana Bird.

 

[Kirbeh]

Idea: what if they did Dixie with a lot of her bones coming from Diddy Kong, but she also has Kiddy Kong follow her around like a Luma so she can do DKC3’s team up moves with him and give her more versatility since she doesn’t have the DK64 weaponry DK and Diddy do. And then the final Smash can be a reference to DKC3’s ending with the Mother Banana Bird.

I'd be down. Solo Dixie, Dixie with a CPU Kiddy, proper tag team Dixie and Kiddy. At this point I just want her in the game.

 

[BackseatSakurai]

what’s unreasonable is how every time you say you don’t like something you feel the need to insult everyone who does like it

Being completely genuine - I don't feel as if I did this. I'm definitely speaking sarcastically / abrasively - but towards the game and the talking points surrounding it. I don't think I ever insulted people and I apologize if I did. I also understand that the line can be blurry when people identify with something strongly.

Because Sakurai isn't gonna look at Shulk and Pyra / Mythra and say "well, they're no Samus and Ridley".

I agree with your post in general, but with this part - I guess all I'm saying overall is that I think he should and wish he would say this. I know I'm in the minority but, hey.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[Noipoi]

Idea: what if they did Dixie with a lot of her bones coming from Diddy Kong, but she also has Kiddy Kong follow her around like a Luma so she can do DKC3’s team up moves with him and give her more versatility since she doesn’t have the DK64 weaponry DK and Diddy do. And then the final Smash can be a reference to DKC3’s ending with the Mother Banana Bird.

Pros: Interesting idea. Dixie gets to be a character.

Cons: Kiddy would have to be present.

 

[fogbadge]

Being completely genuine - I don't feel as if I did this. I'm definitely speaking sarcastically / abrasively - but towards the game and the talking points surrounding it. I don't think I ever insulted people and I apologize if I did. I also understand that the line can be blurry when people identify with something strongly.

then you need to learn to use this it’s the forum symbol for a disingenuous post

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The value of Xenoblade long term has to be looked at in terms of what Nintendo often tries to do with IP's especially in the last few console generations. The series is still relatively niche compared to the first party heavy hitters, but it has grown, and it's grown into becoming a recognized action RPG that belongs wholly to them. Nintendo had to start relying heavily on their first- and second-party studios since back in the N64 generation and slowly over time they've begun to dip into/expand on the genre series they have. While Pokémon is the big traditional turn-based role playing series, and Fire Emblem holding down the strategy sub-genre, the steady growing popularity of Xenoblade in the last 15 years allows them to have a more actionized variant in the genre that they can rely on regardless of how many third parties embrace their next consoles.

And that's just at the game front. With Nintendo also getting their feet wet with stuff like theme parks and media adaptations, XC is something they can potentially do something with long term outside the gaming market. It's nowhere close to the recognition that a Mario, Pokémon, or DK have, but you give it a couple of years and maybe something like a manga print run or even a limited anime series might become practical to license. Nintendo is very often a company that thinks long term and crazy profitability with Xenoblade now is not a necessity if they can gradually grow the audience for it to the point of expansion, whether that be games, merch, or media.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

If only Corrin haters got the memo...

Same with Byleth haters but the character probably get less hate then Corrin nowadays.

 

[DarthEnderX]

4 games. Xenoblade Remake, Xenoblade X Remake, Xenoblade 2 and Xenoblade 3.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure the that chart didn't include X Remake, since it just came out.

what if they did Dixie with a lot of her bones coming from Diddy Kong, but she also has Kiddy Kong follow her around like a Luma

I would rather Dixie never be playable than have to see Kiddy Kong appear in Smash matches.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Same with Byleth haters but the character probably get less hate then Corrin nowadays.

Byleth's gotten less hate since the time MKLeo picked him up and did well with the character

Literally saved by top player privilege

 

[RileyXY1]

I don’t see why it has to take that long. For all we know smash has been worked on at the same time as the new Kirby game. It could just be the other project studio S was doing. Who is to say they both weren’t worked on around the same time?

The possibility of Air Riders getting post-launch support and Studio S's mystery project not being Smash.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

The possibility of Air Riders getting post-launch support

Although it’s possible that it could be by a skeleton team/crew or a smaller team since DLC would presumably just be extra race tracks and additional characters. The latter wouldn’t be as complex as added a new Smash character.

Sakurai probably just needs to supervise.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Although it’s possible that it could be by a skeleton team/crew or a smaller team since DLC would presumably just be extra race tracks and additional characters. The latter wouldn’t be as complex as added a new Smash character.

Sakurai probably just needs to supervise.

He probably just needs to supervise, yes.

But when has Sakurai ever just settled to the minimum? (outside of game modes in Ultimate)

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

He probably just needs to supervise, yes.

But when has Sakurai ever just settled to the minimum? (outside of game modes in Ultimate)

Maybe it's just because it's only ever been a Gamecube game but I just kind of have a hard time imagining what DLC Air Riders could have lol

If it's anything like the original, most of the characters will be differently colored Kirbies, but like maybe more tracks? The original settled for only having 9 normal Air Ride tracks though, so I dunno. More Air Ride machines maybe, depending on what comes back from the original?

I dunno, I just have a really hard time imagining it even if I know it's not impossible lol

 

[SnakeFighter64]

Pros: Interesting idea. Dixie gets to be a character.

Cons: Kiddy would have to be present.

I never understood why people dislike Kiddy.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I agree with your post in general, but with this part - I guess all I'm saying overall is that I think he should and wish he would say this. I know I'm in the minority but, hey.

Okay, but like who's the standard?

Characters and franchises have different histories and merits. If we did direct comparisons and nothing else, we might as well say goodbye to most of the roster because there's always someone better unless you're Mario and Pokemon. We could even say Samus and Ridley are no Mario and Bowser and use that to justify their cuts. Our third parties would be characters like Jonesy and a Call of Duty character because Mega Man sure isn't Fortnite.

Just direct comparisons would ignore that both Metroid and Xenoblade are success stories in their own right. Very different success stories. But both are success stories. Saying Xenoblade is a success comparable to Metroid isn't an insult to either franchise.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I never understood why people dislike Kiddy.

The issues with Kiddy basically came down to three things:

-His design was a bit meh in comparison to the well-received ones of DK, Diddy, & Dixie
-Baby characters are/were a hard sell to make cool/exciting to an audience
-He felt a bit redundant as the big contrast to Dixie when many felt DK should have been the playable partner in DKC3

Those were the significant factors at the time, though the antipathy has largely waned with the fandom these days. Now I wouldn't even necessarily call him unpopular as much as he non-popular. He's like the Jarek from Mortal Kombat of Donkey Kong; fine for what he was but if he didn't come back, a decent portion of fans wouldn't be that bothered.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think Xenoblade‘s representation in Smash is at a nexus point, where it’s completely fine to have the main protagonist of arguably the series and the breakout star (Honestly, Pyra and Mythra are popular almost despite being from Xenoblade). The current rep is justified. It’s when the series gets lumped in with Fire Emblem and Pokémon’s “Each new entry should (or worse, will) have the main character in Smash” where I personally appreciate the pushback. I don’t get the impression Noah and Mio are particularly liked so I’m unsure why I see them on most prediction rosters.