Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
Jigglypuff's d tilt is worse than Marios.
But Sing isn't a bad move. Last time I checked I hit Dojo with it
But Sing isn't a bad move. Last time I checked I hit Dojo with it
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Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?
- Thread starter xDD-Master
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Alus
Smash Champion
Mario's Dtilt has absolutely no use. The cooldown is longer than the hitstun it provides, meaning using it at all is unsafe. Dsmash is better in every way. It's been terrible since 64. I don't know about Jiggz' Dtilt, but it's hard to believe that she's got 2 useless attacks.Jigglypuff's d tilt is worse than Marios.
But Sing isn't a bad move. Last time I checked I hit Dojo with it
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
Jigglypuff only has 1 useless attack. Its her Dtilt. Don't even imagine hitting with it. It comes out like the same time as Fsmash does but does less knockback and damage.
Sing is useful, if it wasn't I wouldn't be pushing up b a couple times in my matches.
Sing canceling is very useful and can get KO's because I can follow up with a fsmash in time.
Sing is useful, if it wasn't I wouldn't be pushing up b a couple times in my matches.
Sing canceling is very useful and can get KO's because I can follow up with a fsmash in time.
No way; I thought it would pop people up in N64 Smash for comboing. Either that or pseudo-spike.
I'm probably exaggerating. I never cared enough about 64 to test Dtilt for uses. I know for Melee it was, which prompted vids like this one.
gm jack
Smash Lord
If they put in a combined Zelda/Sheik (which apparently they haven't) it would likely be closer to Pikachu and Kirby. The combination means they have no hard counters (matchup worse than 60:40 against them) even if you only transform to get to the person who does better against your current enemy. Combining them at the right times gives a very under rated character.
Who needed to worry about any other move in Smash 64 for mario other than:
Up air Z Cancelled
Fair like Diddy Kong's brawl one (exactly)
...
you needed nothing else... honestly.
Zelda/Sheik is probably B tierish. Low B, not A. Sorry fellas.
Up air Z Cancelled
Fair like Diddy Kong's brawl one (exactly)
...
you needed nothing else... honestly.
Zelda/Sheik is probably B tierish. Low B, not A. Sorry fellas.
Alus
Smash Champion
Good luck transforming without getting punished...
At the beginning of a new stock, you can transform and you'll still have invincibility from the respawn platform.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
B!squick
Smash Master
Not hard. Well, it's probably easier for Zelda anyway. And even though you CAN play both or choose mid game, the fact of the matter is that at any given time you can only be playing one very different character or the other. Pokemon Trainer isn't seperated (I think) because of the fatigue. It forces you to switch whether you want to or not, thus 3 characters are treated as one.
It's not so much the fatigue as it is the fact that you auto-switch when you are KO'd. Otherwise, a lot of people would still just play Squirtle anyway.
Orange_Soda_Man
Smash Ace
Other than Ike and Pit, I agree with that list as well. Yes, even TL's position =0
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I disagree with Z/S placement. That's worse than current Zelda alone.
Low B sounds right to me...
And lol, it's not hard to Transform. At all. Sheik transforms to Zelda quicker than the other way around. A good nair, bair, Dsmash, or whatever does the trick. For Zelda, most people wait until the kill, but if not, then it's really a matter of landing anything except something like Usmash on Fox and he lives. You also have the beginning of lives, when the opponent is recovering, or when the opponent is camping away from you. And really, if it is worth it, you can just... transform where you are and eat an attack that won't kill you at 0-30%.
Difficulty of transformation = basically not there with smart play, even though it's no Melee Transform.
Also, I'm beginning to wonder if the fact that you don't have to change is really enough to justify not giving them a spot. They already combined their tournament results. It's really one character that changes attributes. Same weight, same move, same team. I guess I don't have much of an argument for it, at least not yet.
Low B sounds right to me...
And lol, it's not hard to Transform. At all. Sheik transforms to Zelda quicker than the other way around. A good nair, bair, Dsmash, or whatever does the trick. For Zelda, most people wait until the kill, but if not, then it's really a matter of landing anything except something like Usmash on Fox and he lives. You also have the beginning of lives, when the opponent is recovering, or when the opponent is camping away from you. And really, if it is worth it, you can just... transform where you are and eat an attack that won't kill you at 0-30%.
Difficulty of transformation = basically not there with smart play, even though it's no Melee Transform.
Also, I'm beginning to wonder if the fact that you don't have to change is really enough to justify not giving them a spot. They already combined their tournament results. It's really one character that changes attributes. Same weight, same move, same team. I guess I don't have much of an argument for it, at least not yet.
Doesn't Zelda and Sheik both have stalling properties with their transformation if they do it whilst jumping/after momentum cancelling a hit? (like if they're hit high up, and down b they won't be following usual gravity)
Something similar, because of how momentum-changing B moves work.
It's not particularly hard to find a time to switch.
gm jack
Smash Lord
There is an AT with most of their special moves so that if you do it immediately after a jump out of tumbling, you get a massive vertical momentum boost. The invincibility makes it stupid for anyone but MK to try and get that far out to hit you, so it's pretty safe. You also fall pretty slowly, so it is a fairly safe option give that they both have decent recovery options (Zelda can Fayore's Wind to either the ledge or stage, Sheik has the chain and vanish).
As SoR said, low B is about right. I suspect the character is just about viable combined, but is not going to dominate in any way.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
did anybody ever answer me and Reflex's question on why zelda doesnt deserve to be low tier
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
No, because every Zelda player worth his or her salt says she belongs in low tier.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
To be fair, a lot of characters can also punish a successful Kirby swallow. That being said, I still agree that Mario Dtilt is the most useless move in the game, followed very closely by sing.Well there's a difference. If you get hit with Meta Knight's Jab, you won't have the time to punish him for it. If Sing or Mario's DTilt hit you, you can punish them for using it and hitting you, that's how bad they are.
Okay, I think we can all agree that Ganon really sucks, but really, you honestly think he sucks enough to get a separate tier from CF and Link?
Still, I have to agree with most of your list in terms of actual placement.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
question: is the tier list coming out today at midnight or tomorrow sometime?
Tonight at midnight.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I am so exited!!!
Not really though...It means nothing....
Not really though...It means nothing....
gm jack
Smash Lord
For some countries it's already the 5th.
And for GMT+1 (summer time) it will be in just over 3 hours.
Yay!
And the solo Zelda front, I wouldn't be surprised if went into the top of low tier of the very bottom of mid. Hard counters from MK, Snake and G&W are crushing a character who wasn't that great to begin with.
Midnight, Eastern Time Zone. Since I was answering brinboy, who lives in the same time zone as I do, I didn't feel I had to go into specifics about it.
Ike is pretty bad, honestly. Way too predictable.
More like "anticipating the new Tier List."
I guess he is... Unless your opponent knows NOT to use his slow attacks and sticks to jabs, grabs and fair/bairs. Then he's a fast, spammy character.
Ike isn't predictable if he sticks with three attacks and his grabs? What, is every Ike player equivalent to Drephen or something?
grabs for punishing shields, and fast attacks for punishing everything else.
hey, any character can do that and if they're not found out, they gain a pretty good advantage at non-top levels of play.
Exia 00
Smash Champion
I'm surprised I didn't see a "ZOMFG! IS FALCON STILL BOTTOM TIER!?" 
Seriously, I main Snake so I don't really care. I just want to see how the community will react to the new tier list.
Seriously, I main Snake so I don't really care. I just want to see how the community will react to the new tier list.
That's like winning 50 Rock-Paper-Scissors games in a row with the strategy "I'm going to go Rock every single time but you probably won't realize this until it's too late!"
Violent-nin
Smash Ace
Interested to see the new tier list, but at the same time it makes no difference to me.
Exactly!
Btw the Ike thing was supposed to be a joke from the start (except the part where you can win by spacing fast attacks and punishing shields with grabs... That's not entirely untrue)... Dunno if you took it as if I was seriously saying it's a great idea.
Plus, having a predictable opponent won't save you every time from that attack. I mean, if you see a Kirby jumping backwards towards you, you KNOW he's going to use bair, therefore you're predicting his usage of bair... But when he hits you, you go "Ah, I saw it coming, why'd it hit me?!". He predicted you predicting him!
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I can make baseless statements as well.
If Ike is predictable, why have I yet to seen two Ikes with the same playing style? He looks predictable to those who don't main him.
And then they lose. Seriously, he's not that predictable. Heck, even in his jab canceling he isn't predictable, and everyone and their mother knows about it.
1) Full Jab Combo
2) Jab1 -> FJC
3) Jab1 -> Jab1 -> FJC
4) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Jab 1 -> FJC
5) Jab -> Grab
6) Jab -> Pivot Grab
7) Jab -> Dash Grab
8) Jab -> Dsmash
9) Jab -> Utilt
10) Jab -> Bair
11) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Grab
12) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Pivot Grab
13) Jab 1 -> Jab1 -> Dash Grab
14) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Dsmash
15) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Utilt
16) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Bair
17) Jab -> Dtilt
18) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Dtilt
19) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Grab
20) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Pivot Grab
21) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Dash Grab
You can stick Nair in front of all of those at low %s. And then if we grab you at the end and there is a low platform above us, we have these options.
1) Dthrow -> Uair
2) Dthrow -> Utilt
3) Dthrow -> Bair
4) Dthrow -> Fair
5) Dthrow -> Nair
6) Uthrow -> Uair
7) Uthrow -> Utilt
8) Uthrow -> Bair
9) Uthrow -> Fair
10) Uthrow -> Nair
11) Dthrow -> Aether
12) Uthrow -> Aether
Or, you know, we could just screw the platform above us and do this.
1) Bthrow -> Dash Attack
2) Fthrow -> Dash Attack
3) Bthrow -> Quick Draw
4) Fthrow -> Quick Draw
5) Bthrow -> Ftilt
6) Wall Chaingrab
Or if we are on a ledge, we can use one of our many grab releases, depending on the character. Seeing as he has a little under 40, chances are we have something we can use on you.
Gee, I wonder what attack he's going to use first?I can make baseless statements as well.
If Ike is predictable, why have I yet to seen two Ikes with the same playing style? He looks predictable to those who don't main him.
And then they lose. Seriously, he's not that predictable. Heck, even in his jab canceling he isn't predictable, and everyone and their mother knows about it.
1) Full Jab Combo
2) Jab1 -> FJC
3) Jab1 -> Jab1 -> FJC
4) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Jab 1 -> FJC
5) Jab -> Grab
6) Jab -> Pivot Grab
7) Jab -> Dash Grab
8) Jab -> Dsmash
9) Jab -> Utilt
10) Jab -> Bair
11) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Grab
12) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Pivot Grab
13) Jab 1 -> Jab1 -> Dash Grab
14) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Dsmash
15) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Utilt
16) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Bair
17) Jab -> Dtilt
18) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Dtilt
19) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Grab
20) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Pivot Grab
21) Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Dash Grab
You can stick Nair in front of all of those at low %s. And then if we grab you at the end and there is a low platform above us, we have these options.
1) Dthrow -> Uair
2) Dthrow -> Utilt
3) Dthrow -> Bair
4) Dthrow -> Fair
5) Dthrow -> Nair
6) Uthrow -> Uair
7) Uthrow -> Utilt
8) Uthrow -> Bair
9) Uthrow -> Fair
10) Uthrow -> Nair
11) Dthrow -> Aether
12) Uthrow -> Aether
Or, you know, we could just screw the platform above us and do this.
1) Bthrow -> Dash Attack
2) Fthrow -> Dash Attack
3) Bthrow -> Quick Draw
4) Fthrow -> Quick Draw
5) Bthrow -> Ftilt
6) Wall Chaingrab
Or if we are on a ledge, we can use one of our many grab releases, depending on the character. Seeing as he has a little under 40, chances are we have something we can use on you.
Exia 00
Smash Champion
I call Fsmash <_<
Anyways, I would quit smash if MK moved form his spot (Yes, it belongs to him) I would only predict that Falco will move down slightly :/
Anyways, I would quit smash if MK moved form his spot (Yes, it belongs to him
) I would only predict that Falco will move down slightly :/I don't want to get into a dumb debate, I'm really tired at the moment.
Ike is bad. Avoid his Jabs and DSmash/FSmash, he gets punished hard.
All it takes is a Shieldgrab, every single d@mn time.
That being said, I'm not saying your Ike is bad or anything. Nothing personal. I've just been ****** Ike's since Brawl came out. I've probably never seen an Ike place well in an IRL Tournament.
But again, predictable as hell.
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