Nintendo opening up to competitive games?

Fire! · Mar 7, 2009

So I was on the Wii’s Nintendo Channel recently when I came across a new Super Smash Bros instructional video. The video was pretty long (about 6:00 min) so I decided to give it a look.

About half way in, I was surprised to find out that the video actually contained some actually useful information concerning the more difficult aspects of Smash. (Perfect Shielding/Block stun/ etc.) But that’s not the reason I’m posting. The last tip given was how to do Dedede’s standing chaingrab on the 6 characters.

I was pretty much caught by surprise because I never would have thought that Nintendo would actually post a video talking about a “glitch” in one of their games. What I do know is that Nintendo hasn’t really opened up to the competitive gaming community in terms of games like Street Fighter 4, but I think this video might be a step forward. Maybe Nintendo might start making more competitive games or hosting major tournaments in the distant future. Who knows?

Your thoughts?

Edit: -A couple extra things though…the video was a 3rd party video meaning that Nintendo didn’t actually make the video, but approved it to be posted. That's gotta count for something.

-The video is probably good publicity for the competitive scene as it shows that people want to get better. If anything, Nintendo is probably getting used to the fact that there will always be a competitive scene.

-Also, (I found this hilarious) the video referenced the difference between the Melee and Brawl air dodges and said that the time after you air dodge in Melee was called the “Blinky State.” I lol’d

SSJ5Goku8932 · Mar 7, 2009

DDD's chaingarb was intentional.

Edit: Or was that emphasis?

Xivii · Mar 7, 2009

Dont see this as a step forward at all...
being a 3rd party video and all.

kr3wman · Mar 7, 2009

lol Sirlin and his silly videos.

Zaffy · Mar 7, 2009

That's pretty cool, seeing as i don't actually know how to do the infinite grab :D

... I'll watch it later today

Frown · Mar 7, 2009

Zaffy said:
That's pretty cool, seeing as i don't actually know how to do the infinite grab :D

... I'll watch it later today

Z down Z down Z down.

Dedede is broken.

:mad: · Mar 7, 2009

Nintendo watches instructional videos on how to play their own game.

And no, I don't think Nintendo really cares about their customers. If they did, they'd bring back the platforming genre to the Mario and DK games. (At least, games that don't rely on the revolutionary motion controls.)

They make their games without actuallly listening to any fans. If they spent 10 minutes on this site, they might discover a gold mine of information that'll make them even more money.

trev94 · Mar 7, 2009

i hope so.

Tristan_win · Mar 7, 2009

That would be nice, personally I'm not buying the next smash game until I see it is played and I have seen enough to say if it has potential to be within the general ball park of being as good as melee or better then brawl. I'm done faithfully giving my money to a company that does not like how I use and play a game that I bought with my own money.

SmashChu · Mar 7, 2009

Straked said:
Nintendo watches instructional videos on how to play their own game.

And no, I don't think Nintendo really cares about their customers. If they did, they'd bring back the platforming genre to the Mario and DK games. (At least, games that don't rely on the revolutionary motion controls.)

Nintendo's console is the best selling having almost 50% of the console market and ~66% of the handheld market

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Any who, Nintendo will never embrace competitive play because it is suicide. Why would any one in their right mind focus their time and resources and making things with the minority in mind. Most 2D fighting games suffer from this and it is why Smash Bros has taken off. It does not focus on what makes competitive players happy and Smash Boards is proof of this. However, Brawl beat Melee's sales and is still moving units. It's not financially smart to focus on your smallest user group.

Falconv1.0 · Mar 7, 2009

Sirlin started these videos a while ago, and finished in january.

No Nintendo is not trying to support us, that would infer they give a **** about gamers.

It's not impossible to make a game appeal to casual and hard core players, they just dont know how to freaking do it.

§leepy God · Mar 7, 2009

♪ This "new" video on Nintendo channel was on the web for a while. While I'll say the Nintendo DS seires is just about more competive than the Wii at this point, (game wise), it's still too soon for me to accept that The Big N has gave up on core games. †

Da-D-Mon-109 · Mar 7, 2009

Everyone seems to enjoy Hating on Nintendo right now, or so it seems.

Falconv1.0 · Mar 7, 2009

Da-D-Mon-109 said:
Everyone seems to enjoy Hating on Nintendo right now, or so it seems.

Is there a good reason not to? The wii's line up of good new games is getting smaller and smaller. Stuff like Mad World seems to be the type of games that get lots of attention, which is funny to me because it looks like the enemies barely ever even try to attack you, wow, that totally puts me in the zone.

LinkSpecialist · Mar 7, 2009

Falconv1.0 said:
...Stuff like Mad World seems to be the type of games that get lots of attention, which is funny to me because it looks like the enemies barely ever even try to attack you, wow, that totally puts me in the zone.

It's done that way on purpose. The harder difficulty doesn't do such a favor.

kr3wman · Mar 7, 2009

Ferith · Mar 7, 2009

There are links to all the videos on his website. http://sirlin.net

Specificially here: http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2008/11/9/smash-bros-brawl-tutorial-videos.html

Nintendo asked me to explain the game to new players in a way that shows them there is more going on than they might think.

It was done because Ninty was interested in spreading the competetive L-U-R-V. It was not Sirlin's idea. Nintendo's games have been getting more "hardcore" with time, you see some harder and more mature releases nowadays and their line up is changing a bit. They've been trying to suck gamers into the casual scene, but theys till want to keep their hardcore players too which is why they have such videos and are trying to fix up the hardcore market. Ninty's not Capcom, but they're not complete jerks either.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Mar 7, 2009

Nintendo doesn't care about it, it cares about making money. The competitive scene isn't going be the ones mainly providing this money, it's going to care about the families that buy crap games. Why should Nintendo care about us? There's no point for them to care about us at all.

|RK| · Mar 7, 2009

I totally already have a thread about this in the Tactical Brawl Discussion. BEFORE YOU DID!

SmashChu · Mar 7, 2009

Falconv1.0 said:
Sirlin started these videos a while ago, and finished in january.

No Nintendo is not trying to support us, that would infer they give a **** about gamers.

It's not impossible to make a game appeal to casual and hard core players, they just dont know how to freaking do it.

Because it's impossible.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that hardcore and "casual" are polar opposites. Expanded market (casuals, as you know them) wants short pick up and play games. Hardcore wants time sinks. Hardcore whats lots of cinematic. EM does not. Hardcore wants deep story. EM thinks that's stupid. EM wants simple controls. Hardcore want lots of buttons and inputs.

The two ideas will never coincide. Believing they will is ignorant. You can't so two different things at the same time. Thus, Nintendo will not make a game to please both. There is no game that has every truely done this. Most of the EM games of old are loved by the hardcore becuase they were EM when they played them. They would loath at an NES game being released now, but that's what Nintendo is making.

Falconv1.0 · Mar 8, 2009

LinkSpecialist said:
It's done that way on purpose. The harder difficulty doesn't do such a favor.

Not really, it's not hard to make enemies relatively easy to beat and still look like they are at least TRYING to do something.

Smashchu are you on drugs, or have you just never heard of Halo 3, a game with a huge competitive and casual fan base, and both are supported very well. The type of casual you refer to isn't even a gamer, it's an epic noob. Epic noobs would enjoy Wii fit over Brawl.

Barge · Mar 8, 2009

Wasnt melee a huge success?
It was a great competitive game AND a good casual game.
Why can't they do it again?

Plum · Mar 8, 2009

SmashChu said:
Because it's impossible.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that hardcore and "casual" are polar opposites. Expanded market (casuals, as you know them) wants short pick up and play games. Hardcore wants time sinks. Hardcore whats lots of cinematic. EM does not. Hardcore wants deep story. EM thinks that's stupid. EM wants simple controls. Hardcore want lots of buttons and inputs.

The two ideas will never coincide. Believing they will is ignorant. You can't so two different things at the same time. Thus, Nintendo will not make a game to please both. There is no game that has every truely done this. Most of the EM games of old are loved by the hardcore becuase they were EM when they played them. They would loath at an NES game being released now, but that's what Nintendo is making.

How about the Pokemon series?
Such a kid friendly game, yet people still devote their time to develop tier lists with every single (fully evolved) Pokemon, the best team setups, move sets for each Pokemon and how to counter popular strategies.
For me, Pokemon is a casual thing. I was a little kid when Red and Blue hit the market and I still go and buy the new games because they are addictive and fun. Then there's the people who turn it into a hardcore competitive game.

Sounds like the Smash series to me. Look at 64 and Melee. Heck, look at a lot of Brawl's competitive players. Casual games turned hardcore and are very successful at both aspects. Say what you want against Brawl, but if Melee wasn't there to affect your opinion you would think it is a great competitive game.

But hey, Nintendo does need to learn to at least talk to the competitive world. We are the minority and if they only listened to us it would be a terrible business choice but if they want MAX profit then they could give us some recognition.

K-Dog244 · Mar 8, 2009

Its about time if they are. It would be sweet! :chuckle:

PraKirJaq · Mar 8, 2009

Melee had a fairly good mix of both as well. And pokemon of course <3

-Syn- · Mar 8, 2009

SSJ5Goku8932 said:
DDD's chaingarb was intentional.

Edit: Or was that emphasis?

Yes, I'm sure Nintendo intended an auto-win for D3 vs. 6 different characters >.>

Plum · Mar 8, 2009

-Syn- said:
Yes, I'm sure Nintendo intended an auto-win for D3 vs. 6 different characters >.>

He said chaingrab not infinite...

I honestly can not see Nintendo missing some of the chaingrabs. Grab releases are one thing, but some of the CG's in the game are so painfully obvious it is impossible to think that they were THAT bad at testing this game.

There is a chance they knew about some of the infinites in the game. They knew about wavedashing in Melee when it came out and just assumed nobody would find it, or at least that it would turn into what it was.

Heck for all we know, they knew the infinite was there, knew that the casual people would never have to worry about it and cared less about what the competitive community would do with it.

No way of knowing about the infinites, but the CGs on the other hand I doubt they really didn't see that one at all.

Hyrus · Mar 8, 2009

Falconv1.0 said:
The type of casual you refer to isn't even a gamer, it's an epic noob. Epic noobs would enjoy Wii fit over Brawl.

The pick up and set down gamer - you can jingle keys above their head and save a lot of money developing graphics and code.

Expanded market (casuals, as you know them) wants short pick up and play games. Hardcore wants time sinks. Hardcore whats lots of cinematic. EM does not. Hardcore wants deep story. EM thinks that's stupid. EM wants simple controls. Hardcore want lots of buttons and inputs.

The Hardcore/Casual analysis is about as ******** as Republican/Democrat. Simple, easy to pick up games with depth and longevity can appeal to both crowds. The developer only needs to understand gaming... which seems to be a problem these days.

Say what you want against Brawl, but if Melee wasn't there to affect your opinion you would think it is a great competitive game.

If it weren't for professional sports, I might be inclined to agree. But there isn't a random chance to explode when you hit a ball, now is there? You don't randomly trip during a golf swing. A Nintendog doesn't randomly hump your face during a tennis match. And most certainly, a Boxer doesn't grab>downthrow people in an infinite loop.

This crap doesn't assist the "casual" gamer, it only hurts the competitive ones.

Bluebottel · Mar 8, 2009

Ferith said:
Nintendo's games have been getting more "hardcore" with time, you see some harder and more mature releases nowadays and their line up is changing a bit.

Err... they have? Care to give examples? From what ive seen its been the same pink-and-fluffy crap as ever. No, scratch that its not true. Its been even worse pink-and-fluffy crap than ever since some of their older games are very good.

SmashChu said:
Because it's impossible.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that hardcore and "casual" are polar opposites. Expanded market (casuals, as you know them) wants short pick up and play games. Hardcore wants time sinks. Hardcore whats lots of cinematic. EM does not. Hardcore wants deep story. EM thinks that's stupid. EM wants simple controls. Hardcore want lots of buttons and inputs.

No true. I dont want videos or complicated controls at all. Simle is good if it doesnt take away from the depth of things. Take Kongai, as an example. You control it by left clicking with your mouse. Thats it. Despite that it manages to be a great and deep game, go figure.
Lots of games are both simple and deep/very good. Counter-strike and Quake are notable examples.

Jiggywiggy · Mar 8, 2009

I_Am_Plum said:
How about the Pokemon series?
Such a kid friendly game, yet people still devote their time to develop tier lists with every single (fully evolved) Pokemon, the best team setups, move sets for each Pokemon and how to counter popular strategies.
For me, Pokemon is a casual thing. I was a little kid when Red and Blue hit the market and I still go and buy the new games because they are addictive and fun. Then there's the people who turn it into a hardcore competitive game.

Sounds like the Smash series to me. Look at 64 and Melee. Heck, look at a lot of Brawl's competitive players. Casual games turned hardcore and are very successful at both aspects. Say what you want against Brawl, but if Melee wasn't there to affect your opinion you would think it is a great competitive game.

But hey, Nintendo does need to learn to at least talk to the competitive world. We are the minority and if they only listened to us it would be a terrible business choice but if they want MAX profit then they could give us some recognition.

Pokemon is NOT a good competitive game, it's only trying to be. The developers spend their time making half the pokemon utterly useless (Luvdisc, Chimecho, Dunsparce), spend each new generation trying to think up unneeded evos and prevos (i mean really, Magmortar didn't help Magmar that much at all, and don't get me started on Chingling), and keep trying to counter the broken characters they've already introduced (Tyranitar, Garchomp) by simply buffing others to make them MORE BROKEN THAN THE POKEMON THAT ALREADY ARE (lol, Scizor).

They may have made some good choices like giving Togetic an evo, but they really don't know what they're doing at this point. I mean, come on. Stealth Rock... STEALTH ROCK. Balance in the Pokemon franchise makes Melee look like Starcraft.

Big-Cat · Mar 8, 2009

SmashChu said:
Because it's impossible.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that hardcore and "casual" are polar opposites. Expanded market (casuals, as you know them) wants short pick up and play games. Hardcore wants time sinks. Hardcore whats lots of cinematic. EM does not. Hardcore wants deep story. EM thinks that's stupid. EM wants simple controls. Hardcore want lots of buttons and inputs.

The two ideas will never coincide. Believing they will is ignorant. You can't so two different things at the same time. Thus, Nintendo will not make a game to please both. There is no game that has every truely done this. Most of the EM games of old are loved by the hardcore becuase they were EM when they played them. They would loath at an NES game being released now, but that's what Nintendo is making.

Play Street Fighter IV and come back to me on that.

I'm, at the moment at least, a casual player of the game. I can barely cancel and have difficulty doing charged attacks (think spinning bird kick). I also don't have the reflexes just yet for this game. However, despite the major competitive scene, I love the game.

SmashChu · Mar 8, 2009

KumaOso said:
Play Street Fighter IV and come back to me on that.

It's not. Street Fighter focuses on it's core consumers. The game has continued to pile on more and more new features that are for the core, tournament players. The game is defiantly not friendly to newcomers to the franchise, or gaming in general. When Megaman's creator made MM9, he said he was trying to get back to MM2. You can see that 9 focuses on the core aspects that made it fun. Platforming and shooting. The charge shot and slide were gone because people didn't care, only the hardcore. Games of old did fine without lots of features. Street Fighter 2 did as well. As the franchise has gone it, it has added more and more obscure features. Compare the sales of Street Fighter 2 to Street Fighter 4 and you'll see what I mean. Expanded Audience games will always do amazing (Wii Sports) where core games do poorly. The more it focuses on it's core consumers, the less it will sell. This is why Smash Brothers must never focus on the interest of tournament players.

You are misinterpreting what people say when they are using "casual" (think Expanded Audience).

Falconv1.0 said:
Not really, it's not hard to make enemies relatively easy to beat and still look like they are at least TRYING to do something.

Smashchu are you on drugs, or have you just never heard of Halo 3, a game with a huge competitive and casual fan base, and both are supported very well. The type of casual you refer to isn't even a gamer, it's an epic noob. Epic noobs would enjoy Wii fit over Brawl.

Halo 3 did not appeal to the expanded audience. It appealed to the core consumer. Like I said with Street Fighter, Halo focused less on it's core then other games. It was still targeting gamers, but it never focus on it's fanbase. The idea is that when a game focuses more and more on it's core consumers (being those who are huge fans of the franchise) the more and more it alienates the consumers who are not involved. With most games for the last two or three generations, all the players involved in this scenario are core gamers, not expanded market ones.

Now, if your talking in terms of tournement scenes (casual vs competative) then that's a different but similar story.

One I'll answer right...............

Barge said:
Wasnt melee a huge success?
It was a great competitive game AND a good casual game.
Why can't they do it again?

Now.
Melee is more of a fluke then anything. Before Melee, there wasn't much of a competitive scene. The competitive games were mainly on the PC as far as I know. So, when a competitive Melee group pops up, it's a surprise. So, the developers could not have focused on making a game that works for them. For the most part, Melee's competitive scene was an accident resulting from the game being fun, being a multiplayer game and techniques like L-cancel and wavedashing.

When Brawl come around, they decided to make it easier, something the competitive players do not want. Brawl also did better then Melee in sales. What does this say? In order to truly please one side, you must make sacrifices to the other. A halfway point would do everything, but nothing well, leaving everyone upset. Sakurai went along and made the game geared to newer players (something he's always done. His career was built upon this).

Making features that only competitive players want will alienate those who are new or not as good. This is what has happened to Street Fighter. 4 has a lot of features that players have learn and master, but take a look at games of old. Most don't have many techniques. Sonic was played with one button. Megaman just ran and jump (and changed his blaster). Mario jumped unless he got a fire flower. Even Street Fighter was easier to get into as you didn't have to know so many little tricks in order to play. This is the problem when a franchise focuses more and more on it's core consumers. Brawl (besides characters) didn't and focused on expanding the franchise. Street Fighter did not and focused on pleasing those who already played.

Case in point: there is no middle ground. The casual players (being the opposite of competitive) apposed Wavedashing and L-canceling. They knew it existed and hated it. Had Sakurai focused on those and added more advanced techniques then more and more people would stop playing. Smash Boards would be happy, but not everyone else. Want more proof of this polarity. Look at the view of Smash Boards to outsiders. It's always negative. Where do you think the term "tourney***" came from?

"Casuals" want to have fun and jump into a game. "Competitive" players want to learn tricks and win. They are polar opposites. Two opposing forces can not exist in the same room lest they kill themselves.

Minwu · Mar 8, 2009

SmashChu said:
It's not. Street Fighter focuses on it's core consumers. The game has continued to pile on more and more new features that are for the core, tournament players.

Ultra moves make the endgame dangerous to approach during and boring.

Big-Cat · Mar 8, 2009

SmashChu said:
Compare the sales of Street Fighter 2 to Street Fighter 4 and you'll see what I mean.

Are you seriously asking me to do this? Street Fighter II has been around for almost 18 years. Street Fighter IV has only been out for a month (save the arcade version). You can't compare the sales of two. Don't even think about asking me to compare the first week sales either. They come from different time periods of the videogame industry's life. SF 2 was from the ages of arcade fighters and the industry was smaller. SF 4 has series history and the industry is larger.

SmashChu · Mar 8, 2009

KumaOso said:
Are you seriously asking me to do this? Street Fighter II has been around for almost 18 years. Street Fighter IV has only been out for a month (save the arcade version). You can't compare the sales of two. Don't even think about asking me to compare the first week sales either. They come from different time periods of the videogame industry's life. SF 2 was from the ages of arcade fighters and the industry was smaller. SF 4 has series history and the industry is larger.

*facepalm*

Street Fighter 2 did not sell for 18 years; no game does. To say I can not compare the two is idiocy at the highest level. Why can't I? They are from the same franchise. If we factor population growth into the equation, we can compare anything. Watch me.

Notice something? That's right, despite the industry "growing" and the population growth, fewer people are playing Street Fighter. What's happening. "Oh, it's because arcade fighters are no more. Thus it doesn't sell well" Tekken, Smash bros, and Soul Caliber have all done well despite arcades are no more. Let's see how Street Fighter 4 is doing.

PS3 version
Xbox 360 Version

Why, look how few they sold. And sales are dropping. What does it tell us. No surprise, despite being on two different systems, sales are worse then previous Street Fighters. When looked individually, it looks pretty grim.

So why are sales going down. Well, my answer was that it has alienated most of it's 6 million user based and failed to bring in fresh blood. How? By focusing on the few Street Fighter fanatics. Eventually, the franchises will shrivel and die, if it hasn't already.

Deleted member · Mar 8, 2009

Street Fighter 2 is still selling on Virtual Console.
We have to just learn to deal with it. Hopefully, Nintendo will fail and come crawling back to us.

Thinkaman · Mar 8, 2009

This topic is quickly becoming a cesspool of spoiled entitlement...

rehab · Mar 8, 2009

Jiggywiggy said:
Stealth Rock... STEALTH ROCK.

This is my favorite Pokemon move ever.

SUBTERFUGE BABY GRAND PIANO

Ferith · Mar 8, 2009

Bluebottel said:
Err... they have? Care to give examples? From what ive seen its been the same pink-and-fluffy crap as ever. No, scratch that its not true. Its been even worse pink-and-fluffy crap than ever since some of their older games are very good.

I see a few. By no means are there many- especially if you look at the ratio of competitive to casual, the options are still limited, but comparatively they've been getting better as the only real hardcore game out there is Fire Emblem (and possibly one or two others that I don't care to remember.)

SpongeBathBill · Mar 9, 2009

Thinkaman said:
This topic is quickly becoming a cesspool of spoiled entitlement...

I think the feeling is that if you have been a loyal customer to a company for years or even decades, I'm entitled not to be forgotten.

Nintendo opening up to competitive games?

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