Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[gantrain05]

luigi is my counterpick to wario, he does very well against him if you have quick reflexes you can easily intercept warios approaches with a quick Uair or Fair.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wario has those invincibility frames on his Fsmash, and down air to forward smash is a really good set up to use considering how well he can move when he is arial.[/quoote]
the Fsmash has super armor not invincibility frames so he can get grabbed out of it.
Dair to Fsmash is nice but I am unsure on whether its a true combo.

Luigi's smashes are powerful but he has little arms and has tough time getting close enough to use his powerful moves.[/quoe]
in comarison his smashes have similar range to wario with more power to them.
his Dsmash is also much better.

And Wario has his amazing bite move, which when used correctly can own pretty much anyone all the time.

If this were true inhale would be a great move.
Bite is a good move but not godlike and it isn't the end of all moves.

And I know luigi has is up b, but that rarely happens. and Wario has the mega fart anyways which although is rarer ,I suppose,is much easier to hit with.
Wario is also heavier.
This is just what I know...

Correct the fart is easier to land but Luigi does have methods of landing the ^B reliably.
most specifically his jab~^B.

 

[GodAtHand]

^ Yah I was overacting for dramatic effect, but Wario's bite stops most peoples smashes and jab attacks from the front and it begins quicker than inhale. That is all.

 

[ShadowLink84]

^ Yah I was overacting for dramatic effect, but Wario's bite stops most peoples smashes and jab attacks from the front and it begins quicker than inhale. That is all.

The problem though is that his bite doesn't cover the top of his mouth.
So characters like Sonic can tilt a smash and break it.
This also goes for tilts.

Its good but I find the issue with bite is that it lacks range so its a good move for catching aggressive opponents.

 

[gantrain05]

meh, bite is an ok move, but i don't see many warios that really use it all too often, every wario i play likes to spam Dair approach and attempt to juggle off stage, its a good move but i don't really have much trouble with it.

 

[mimic_king]

Wario is a very unique character. He can be good, but he's hard to use. He has some devastatingly powerful attacks. He has a very bad recovery, and he falls faster. He is still really good and should be at least high tier.

 

[jiovanni007]

Wario is a very unique character. He can be good, but he's hard to use. He has some devastatingly powerful attacks. He has a very bad recovery, and he falls faster. He is still really good and should be at least high tier.

Wario's not that hard to use, and his recovery isn't bad...just predictable.

 

[Blad01]

My point of view on the tier list, first try : http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4289.

 

[Snowstalker]

God:

Meta Knight

Top:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
R.O.B
Marth
Wario

High:

Lucario
Olimar
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Pit

Middle:

Toon Link
Zelda
Peach
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Mario
Bowser
Lucas

Low:

Sheik
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Bottom:

Link
Ganondorf
Captian Falcon

 

[Snail]

^ I like yours, Snow.

Blad01, Ness in high tier? <_<

 

[choknater]

decent list snow, i might just be biased toward a higher Diddy kong but yea, i say diddy kong higher

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Besides Olimar being a bit too high (bottom of high should be perfect imo) it does look good. The only problem I have with that list, is Zelda and Sheik being treated as two characters and Zelda being a whole tier higher

 

[darkNES386]

Is anyone else as impressed as I am that the tier list for brawl has both fast and slow characters intermixed? I think that is a huge achievement for the smash series. Everyone before Brawl came out was still under the impression that the faster characters will always have the advantage:

Meta Knight/Snake -----Captain Falcon/Ganondorf

This really doesn't deserve it's own thread so yeah... just throwing it out there among pointless tier debating.

 

[Snail]

Well, MK still dominates everyone else by a large margin, but yeah. Speed seems to have become less important :/

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am not impressed. the only reason slower characters like Snake do much better is because there is nothing for fast characters to take advantage off.

There is a much larger payoff if you have more powerful attacks.

If MK had all his speed but had as much range as Pit he would be lower than Snake.

 

[choknater]

Besides Olimar being a bit too high (bottom of high should be perfect imo) it does look good. The only problem I have with that list, is Zelda and Sheik being treated as two characters and Zelda being a whole tier higher

Not everyone switches.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not everyone switches.

I think the point is that you have the possibility of switching and so it should be considered equivilent to, for example, not using Marth's fair. You have the move in your arsenal, if you personally choose not to use it, it doesn't affect the character's tier list position and match-ups. It just makes it more difficult for you personally to win.


While I might disagree, the argument is rather compelling.

 

[choknater]

i guess... the i think what's more important is that if people just choose to main Sheik, then they will just use sheik... and the same for zelda.

that's kinda like saying Samus/ZSS can be put together because you are able to switch mid match with the control pad

the only reason PT has to be regarded as one character is because you are FORCED to switch, and effective PT players have to be good with all 3

that's not the case for sheik/zelda

if it was truly possible, i'd vow for squirtle, ivy, and charizard to be ranked separately

 

[adumbrodeus]

i guess... the i think what's more important is that if people just choose to main Sheik, then they will just use sheik... and the same for zelda.

that's kinda like saying Samus/ZSS can be put together because you are able to switch mid match with the control pad

the only reason PT has to be regarded as one character is because you are FORCED to switch, and effective PT players have to be good with all 3

that's not the case for sheik/zelda

if it was truly possible, i'd vow for squirtle, ivy, and charizard to be ranked separately

It's more an issue of difficulty, changing is punishable, and thus requires a great deal of additional strategic consideration. Plus, the characters require a lot of strategical skill, it's more of a dedication then just a fair.


That said, Samus switching to ZSS mid-match should be considered. How much precisely I can't say, because the switch is much more final then with Zelda/Sheik. However, it does provide the possibility of a one-time strategic advantage.

Samus/ZSS technically should have a spot.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

It's more an issue of difficulty, changing is punishable, and thus requires a great deal of additional strategic consideration. Plus, the characters require a lot of strategical skill, it's more of a dedication then just a fair.


That said, Samus switching to ZSS mid-match should be considered. How much precisely I can't say, because the switch is much more final then with Zelda/Sheik. However, it does provide the possibility of a one-time strategic advantage.

Samus/ZSS technically should have a spot.

I agree here. I think by the argument we've used to say Zelda/Sheik should have a spot, Samus/Zamus technically should as well.

However, while switching between Zelda and Sheik is very practical both for using both for one match-up and switching between the two to use the one with the better match-up, Samus to Zamus is far less practical and rewarding.

Playing Zelda/Sheik gives a player an advantage he wouldn't have if he just played one, while I feel playing Samus/Zamus might just be inferior to playing Zamus.

 

[choknater]

Alright, I know where you guys are coming from when you say combining Zelda/Sheik. I understand that combining them gives them a superior matchup in many cases.

But there are plenty of examples where using just one of them is superior... For example, Zelda only is a MUCH better choice vs ROB or IC's, while Sheik only is a MUCH better choice for Ike and possibly Snake. So they still deserve their individual tier spots.

However...

Sheik
Zelda
Sheik/Zelda
Samus
ZSS
Samus/ZSS
Pokemon Trainer
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Charizard...

that kind of compromise will look totally cluttered LOL.

IMO:
Sheik/Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda should each have spots
Samus and ZSS separate, no Samus/ZSS
PT as one, no separate Pokemon

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The tiers assume the character to be played at the highest level. Obviously, a highly skilled player will make use of both - Sheiks ability to rack up dmg and Zeldas finishing options.
Switching Zelda to Sheik is a normal move. Switching Zamus and Samus requires to use Smashballs which has no effect on the tier list. Thus, Zelda and Sheik are one character and so is PKMN trainer. Zamus and Samus however are two different characters

 

[adumbrodeus]

The tiers assume the character to be played at the highest level. Obviously, a highly skilled player will make use of both - Sheiks ability to rack up dmg and Zeldas finishing options.
Switching Zelda to Sheik is a normal move. Switching Zamus and Samus requires to use Smashballs which has no effect on the tier list. Thus, Zelda and Sheik are one character and so is PKMN trainer. Zamus and Samus however are two different characters

Samus to ZSS doesn't require a smallball.

The point is, as a matter of pure convienence to the players, they deserve independant spots as well.

Alright, I know where you guys are coming from when you say combining Zelda/Sheik. I understand that combining them gives them a superior matchup in many cases.

But there are plenty of examples where using just one of them is superior... For example, Zelda only is a MUCH better choice vs ROB or IC's, while Sheik only is a MUCH better choice for Ike and possibly Snake. So they still deserve their individual tier spots.

The possibility is always superior however. If playing one char is superior to playing both in a given match-up, the player will stick with just one character if playing optimally. Therefore every Zelda/Sheik match-up is equal to or better then the individual Sheik and Zelda match-ups.

Samus and ZSS separate, no Samus/ZSS

The only reason I point that out is a change is possible, and an optimal playstyle would incorperate that possibility.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Doube post

 

[sniperfire]

Falcon needs to move up higher. Someone invite me the SBR so i can SHOW THEM MY COMBO!
(btw i made a falcon combo and an awesome new chaingrab, if you havent heard)
Someone tell someone!

 

[Tenki]

Falcon needs to move up higher. Someone invite me the SBR so i can SHOW THEM MY COMBO!
(btw i made a falcon combo and an awesome new chaingrab, if you havent heard)
Someone tell someone!

this?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196307

New combo made by me
First do a knee while they are on the ground
then dash attack []
up smash []
Falcon Pawnch []
Damage in the end:75%
Sometimes they will get KO'd, it depends where you do the combo
Characters to use it against:Dk, and the rest are being tested right now.
When I used it on a Dk,it was inescapeble.

I added a [] wherever it was escapable by human players who either know how to airdodge, double jump, or attack in retaliation.

 

[sniperfire]

this?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196307



I added a [] wherever it was escapable by human players who either know how to airdodge, double jump, or attack in retaliation.

You have to be kidding me.
The dash attack isnt escapable.
Also,were you fighting a DK?

 

[Tenki]

You have to be kidding me.
The dash attack isnt escapable.
Also,were you fighting a DK?

Knee trip>dash attack might not be escapable, I gave you that much, but you sure as day can airdodge after a dash attack.

 

[sniperfire]

this?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196307



I added a [] wherever it was escapable by human players who either know how to airdodge, double jump, or attack in retaliation.

Well if you dont know what the firegrab is, i might as well tell you.
I guess you could call it an alternating CG.
It helps falcon chaingrab smaller characters.
G= grab

G - F throw - G - D throw - G -F Throw......
Its effective

 

[Tenki]

Well if you dont know what the firegrab is, i might as well tell you.
I guess you could call it an alternating CG.
It helps falcon chaingrab smaller characters.
G= grab

G - F throw - G - D throw - G -F Throw......
Its effective

I wouldn't doubt that it's effective if your opponent airdodges right away, or doesn't DI.

But what happens if your opponent DI's upwards, buying enough time to double jump away, or buying enough time (and they don't need alot of time) to attack you as you run in to regrab?

You do know what DI is, right?

 

[sniperfire]

I wouldn't doubt that it's effective if your opponent airdodges right away, or doesn't DI.

But what happens if your opponent DI's upwards, buying enough time to double jump away, or buying enough time (and they don't need alot of time) to attack you as you run in to regrab?

You do know what DI is, right?

I could say the same exact thing 4 DDD's CG.
ONCE YOU GRAB THEM AND USE A CHAIN OF THROWS THEY CANT ESCAPE. THATS WHY IT IS A CHAINGRAB.
And no, i dont know what DI abbreviates. Care to explain please?

 

[Shark Week]

lol

10falconchaingrabs

 

[sniperfire]

lol

10falconchaingrabs

YES!






sorry i couldnt resist.

 

[Tenki]

I could say the same exact thing 4 DDD's CG.
ONCE YOU GRAB THEM AND USE A CHAIN OF THROWS THEY CANT ESCAPE. THATS WHY IT IS A CHAINGRAB.
And no, i dont know what DI abbreviates. Care to explain please?

DI is Directional Influence. It allows you to manipulate the direction that you're being launched.

Simply put, if you're holding a direction during the same moment you're being launched/thrown, it will change the angle that you go flying. It is NOT the same thing as controlling your free-fall.

For example, if you hold upwards when someone launches you sideways (or at least, for the moment that you get hit), you'll be sent flying at a higher angle, and you can survive a little longer.

Similarly, if you DI downwards, and the move sends you up-diagonal, it will send you flying even more horizontally, making you launch stronger sideways.

If you DI upwards on his throws, you'll be launched higher, buying you enough airtime to attack.

You can't DI Dedede's chaingrab- it's a fixed length no matter what.

 

[sniperfire]

DI is Directional Influence. It allows you to manipulate the direction that you're being launched.

Simply put, if you're holding a direction during the same moment you're being launched/thrown, it will change the angle that you go flying. It is NOT the same thing as controlling your free-fall.

For example, if you hold upwards when someone launches you sideways (or at least, for the moment that you get hit), you'll be sent flying at a higher angle, and you can survive a little longer.

Similarly, if you DI downwards, and the move sends you up-diagonal, it will send you flying even more horizontally, making you launch stronger sideways.

If you DI upwards on his throws, you'll be launched higher, buying you enough airtime to attack.

You can't DI Dedede's chaingrab- it's a fixed length no matter what.

How do you DI?
(i need to know so i can further test my firegrab)

 

[Tenki]

Be holding a direction on the control stick during the moment that you are either:
- hit by an attack
- released from a throw

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...
As it happens I'm laughing. Pretty hard, too.

 

[Tenki]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...
As it happens I'm laughing. Pretty hard, too.

You can do both, if you're laughing hard enough.

 

[Darth JoBak]

sniperfire is about to get a smash education *quickly leaves room*

youtube ally's c.falc, he'll show you his moves

 

[Blistering Speed]

Wario needs to be moved down seriously, why is no-one taking into account all the grab release ****? Ness and Lucas get infinited by 1 and a third characters and they get put down atleast a tier, Wario gets infinited by three regular characters, eight I think if he has no double jump and atleast half the cast get a free hit off it and he doesn't get moved down at ALL!?