Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Crazy Hobo]

You can't say you want to ban Distant Planet because of chaingrabs. Delfino is neutral and has walk offs. As for Skyworld I say banned. When the platforms are gone (which happens often) tether ecoveries are screwed, and other characters have an advantage. Also you can be meteor spiked through the clouds. When the platforms are up there is too much bouncing in the middle.

 

[S2]

The Skyworld argument is the same argument why Castlesiege should be a counter-pick and not neutral.

Certain characters get massively screwed over if they need to recover during the stage switching, while others suffer from no penalty at all.

A recovering Olimar has no chance (since there is nothing to grab onto), while ROB can recovery stall virtually during the entire switching animation.

It's nothing that's gamebreaking at all. If anything both arguments are somewhat situational (but not out of the ordinary)

But "neutral" stages shouldn't have things that completely screw certain members of the cast or very heavily favor certain characters.

 

[Florida]

The Skyworld argument is the same argument why Castlesiege should be a counter-pick and not neutral.

Certain characters get massively screwed over if they need to recover during the stage switching, while others suffer from no penalty at all.

A recovering Olimar has no chance (since there is nothing to grab onto), while ROB can recovery stall virtually during the entire switching animation.

It's nothing that's gamebreaking at all. If anything both arguments are somewhat situational (but not out of the ordinary)

But "neutral" stages shouldn't have things that completely screw certain members of the cast or very heavily favor certain characters.

Skyworld should definitely be a counterpick legal stage. This sort of stage really has no effect on characters such as Metaknight and Kirby and King Dedede and other characters that have amazing recoveries. This stage is a perfect stage to counter characters such as Olimar, Ivysaur, and Zero Suit Samus, however.

It's a terrible stage, but it should be used for counterpicks. There really aren't any hazards, the only thing a little tricky being the breakable platforms.

 

[theGreatDekuTree]

why do people make stages that kill other people legal.
shouldnt it be simple as that?
go into training mode, leave the game on.
dont do anything, select a stage.
if you EVENTUALLY die without playing this stage should be banned
(norfair, halberd, etc)

why is there any discussion?
these stages might be hella fun but theres no competition when a stage kills someone.
i love playing pirate ship & halberd but its no place for competitive play, why are we even discussing that?

 

[IDK]

i dont think we should BAN every stage that has a small flaw... Sakurai isn't perfect but he also put things in the game for his reasons and if you want to talk to sakurai... have fun. we need to stop being babies and just deal with the stages.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

why do people make stages that kill other people legal.
shouldnt it be simple as that?
go into training mode, leave the game on.
dont do anything, select a stage.
if you EVENTUALLY die without playing this stage should be banned
(norfair, halberd, etc)

why is there any discussion?
these stages might be hella fun but theres no competition when a stage kills someone.
i love playing pirate ship & halberd but its no place for competitive play, why are we even discussing that?

Rainbow Cruise, Pokefloats, Mute City, Corneria (although it'd take forever, it makes attacks)

And if you're honestly so bad at the game that you're worried about Halberd's attacks disrupting competition (not to mention, to a point where you think there shouldn't be any discussion about it), play a different game.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Distant Planet should so be banned, that water on the left is not good. Also, don't the items that spawn from the plants sometimes explode?

 

[KingofCereal]

There is no comparison between Castle Siege and Skyworld. I believe CS should be neutral: walkoff-shmalkoff, the changes are slow and not really a big deal, and if you get stuck under the stage its your problem (much like melee's battlefield). Skyworld on the other hand is a giant pain. If you are on the bottom platform and you smack into the ceiling it causes stupid problems. With no better way to say it, it's simply a stupid stage. I hate it, and don't think it should be neutral. No real reason it shouldn't be counterpickable.

 

[HT27]

Distant Planet's water runs fast, yes, but most characters (if not all) can just grab onto the ledge immediately after being washed off, just press in that direction beforehand. The bulborb is a nuisance at best, I've seen people get eaten by it once or twice in scores of matches there. The 'item' thingies that spawn on the level do little damage, have little knockback at all percentages, and dont explode to my knowledge. Furthermore, if you want to argue that the stage should be bannable because of its 'items', then I argue that ZSS should be banned because of all the pieces of armor that she gets to start a match off. Many a time have I seen ZSS just throw those pieces for the first 20 seconds and get someone up to KO-able percentage or even seen someone KOed with thrown pieces of armor while trying to recover.

Skyworld, on the other hand, should be at most counterpick (certainly not neutral, because it isnt). Its just far too unbalanced for characters with below average recoveries and the platforms are really advantageous for someone with spammable smashes or a good ground game.

 

[S2]

There is no comparison between Castle Siege and Skyworld. I believe CS should be neutral: walkoff-shmalkoff, the changes are slow and not really a big deal, and if you get stuck under the stage its your problem (much like melee's battlefield). Skyworld on the other hand is a giant pain. If you are on the bottom platform and you smack into the ceiling it causes stupid problems. With no better way to say it, it's simply a stupid stage. I hate it, and don't think it should be neutral. No real reason it shouldn't be counterpickable.

Melee's battlefield and Castle Siege aren't comparable at all in that respect. That battlefield was problematic if you mis-timed your Up-B. The complaint with CS is that there are times when certain characters can't up-b at all. It only effects certain characters, thus making it a distinct advantage against characters with certain recovery types (tethers).

The "not a big deal" is very much a perspective depending on who you're playing as. The changing may not be a big deal to Pit, whose Up-B can let him fly/stall/get upward movement. But its certainly a "big deal" to a recovering Olimar player who would have recovered except suddenly there was nothing to grab onto and he has no way of propelling himself up onto the invisible floor.

That kind of thing is perfect for counter-pick stages, but I can see why there's complaints about its "neutrality" when neutral stages aren't supposed to offer huge advantages to any given character/s.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I think its kind of funny that people are saying Skyworld is an unfair stage, and that people with tether recoveries are at a disadvantage there, when at the same time on the Zamus character board there is a "good/bad stage" thread that list Skyworld as one of her best stages.

I don't know about other tethering characters, but at least in Zamus's case she is at an advantage there. Don't counterpick Skyworld against Zamus, Zamus should counterpick it against you. The reason is that even though the ledges can be destroyed therefore preventing tethers, there are still two ledges on each side. So let's look at the three possible situations.

1. Both ledges are intact. This means that the recovering character can tether at two diffetent places. This removes the common problem of tether recoveries getting gimped, since if the opponent is holding on to one of the ledges you can just tether the other.

2. One of the two ledges are destroyed. Then its just like any other stage. No need to go any further into that one.

3. Both ledges are destroyed. In this case the tether based recovering character is pretty much dead. Except for Zamus since she can also recover with her downB just as well.

So basically Skyworld is only a problem for tethering characters when both of the ledges on the same side have been destroyed, which pretty rarely happens. In any other case they are just fine, and maybe even at an advantage.

Still though, there are some problems with that stage that stop it from being truly neutral, so I vote for counterpick legal on Skyworld.

 

[M.K]

I think its kind of funny that people are saying Skyworld is an unfair stage, and that people with tether recoveries are at a disadvantage there, when at the same time on the Zamus character board there is a "good/bad stage" thread that list Skyworld as one of her best stages.

I don't know about other tethering characters, but at least in Zamus's case she is at an advantage there. Don't counterpick Skyworld against Zamus, Zamus should counterpick it against you. The reason is that even though the ledges can be destroyed therefore preventing tethers, there are still two ledges on each side. So let's look at the three possible situations.

1. Both ledges are intact. This means that the recovering character can tether at two diffetent places. This removes the common problem of tether recoveries getting gimped, since if the opponent is holding on to one of the ledges you can just tether the other.

2. One of the two ledges are destroyed. Then its just like any other stage. No need to go any further into that one.

3. Both ledges are destroyed. In this case the tether based recovering character is pretty much dead. Except for Zamus since she can also recover with her downB just as well.

So basically Skyworld is only a problem for tethering characters when both of the ledges on the same side have been destroyed, which pretty rarely happens. In any other case they are just fine, and maybe even at an advantage.

Still though, there are some problems with that stage that stop it from being truly neutral, so I vote for counterpick legal on Skyworld.

Skyworld is a horrid crammed jumble of breakable platforms. The cloud platforms have unorthodox characteristics that help some and hinder some. I don't think you can play on it as Neutral. Very Borderline Banned/Counterpick IMHO.

 

[Eten]

n e u t r a l s t a g e s :

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)

All neutral for being truly neutral, very little variation between these stages negates any effect of luck when used in a random set.

c o u n t e r p i c k l e g a l :

All counter pick reasons are given in terms of why they differ from the neutral set above, not why they are not banned. It is up to the players to decide and make use of the stage elements for an advantage when they choose their counterpicks.

Frigate Orpheon (No ledge, other effects)
Delfino Plaza (Course shifts, passable bottom, water, walls, walkoffs)
Luigi's Mansion (Destructable course)
Mario Circuit (Walk-offs, damage hazards)
Pirate Ship (Damage hazards, water, low gravity, other effects)
Norfair (Damage hazards)
Battleship Halberd (Damage hazards, passable bottom)
Castle Siege (walkoffs, pillars, other effects)
Summit (no ledges, water, low gravity, damage hazards, slick surface, KO hazard, other effects)
Skyworld (Destructable course)
Shadow Moses Island (Destructible course, walls, walkoffs)
Jungle Japes (Melee) (Water)
Corneria (Melee) (damage hazards)
Rainbow Cruise (Melee) (Stage scroll)
Green Greens (Melee) (Damage hazards, throwable items, other effects)
Brinstar (Melee) (Damage hazard, destructible course)
Bridge of Eldin (Damage hazard, walk-offs, other effects)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (Other effects)
Port Town (Damage hazard, passable bottom, no ledges, stage shifts)
Distant Planet (Other effects, throwable items, walkoffs, KO hazard, passable bottom)
Flat Zone 2 (damage hazards, walkoffs, other effects)
PictoChat (damage hazards, other effects)
Hannenbow (other effects)
Green Hill Zone (Walk-offs, damage hazard, other effects)
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (Walk-offs, other effects)
Onett (Melee) (Walk-offs, damage hazard, walls)
Mushroomy Kingdom (walls, stage scrolls, walk-offs)
Rumble Falls (walls, stage scrolls, damage hazard, KO hazard, walk-offs)

b a n n e d s t a g e s :

All banned stage reasons refer to specific bannable elements that prevents them from being a normal counterpick.

Spear Pillar (Infinite stalling by running away)
Wario Ware (Invincibility random element makes it like playing with the randomness of items)
New Pork City (Infinite stalling by running away)
75m (Infinite stalling by running away)
Mario Bros. (Throws the rules of smash out the window. Source: Sakurai)
Hyrule Temple (Melee) (Infinite stalling by running away)
Big Blue (Melee) (Cars shift unpredictably, can lead to death by tumbling into the course, can't be counteracted because you can not avoid the cars)

C o n c l u s i o n
A stage is neutral when defined as neutral. All other variety, then, can be seen as usable advantages that sits in the definition of counterpick, unless it causes specific problems that you need to eliminate by banning. What is counterpick could become banned only if the certain elements that cause problems are noted, actually seen them being abused practically, and it's logical.(Like the wario ware randomness) Most of all, I'm trying to develop the mentality to think about the classification of brawl's stages.

 

[S2]

The simple fact that most of the stages are counter-picks is good for Brawl.

Counter-pick doesn't mean you can't play it, it simply means its not on the random 1st stage list.

That leaves a lot of strategy and practice for counter-picking stages. Which is something many Melee players didn't seem to get. So many people I played counter-picked Final D, Battlefield, and Dreamland. I love those stages, but counter-picking is a good way to pick a stage you're strategically advantaged on that might hurt your opponent's game (in Melee I counterpicked Jungle Japes a lot, a stage that benefited Sheik, hurt foxes/falcos, and most players had little experience on).


If you like a counterpick stage so much that you feel it should have been neutral or simply like for some reason... well, counterpick it then. If you play it more than the average player you probably better off picking it over stages your opponent is more familiar with.

 

[AlexX]

Just because there's a ten second warning doesn't mean that your opponent can't still knock you off of the stage. My friend wasn't even trying to set the laser up for an edgeguard yesterday, he was just trying to get a K.O.. I would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for that meddling laser!

Then it was a total fluke or you weren't paying attention. If the former, it's not enough to affect gameplay. If the latter, it's your own fault. Especially since you can just DI out of the lazer's attack range before the knockback frames kick in.

No one is going to want to jump across the gap if you could just spam your projectile. Plus, jumping to the other side can leave you open for attacking and meteor smashes. Plus, there's the rare occasion where you'll get meteor smashed at a low percent, try to make a recovery, and the bridge will reappear and trap you underneath.

As long as you're on the place where the bridge is about to reform (where there's plenty of warning thanks to the screen darkening and the portal appearing), you will simply take damage and be placed on top of the bridge. If you're so low that you're incapable of jumping to where the bridge is about to reform as it's about to do so to save yourself, you're probably dead as it is.

For the projectile part, there's a few problems with that list there:

Diddy's peanut popgun (slightly and fully charged)
Link's/TL's arrow (fully charged)
^These fly down at an angle. They can reach accross the gap, but not as far as ones that go completely horizontally.

Samus's Charge Shot and missiles
^Shots yes, but missiles only go a bit past the gap before exploding.

Fox's/Falco's laser
^It only goes slightly past the gap. If your opponent just stands back a bit, you can't shoot them because the range isn't good enough.

Ness's/Luca's PK Thunder
^Once more, only reaches a bit past the gap.

Luca's PK Freeze (only reaches the ledge)
^As with the previous ones that only go a bit past the gap, stand back from the ledge a bit. Problem solved.

Snake's rocket launcher
^Which leaves him vulnerable to the opponent's projectiles if they're like Pit's arrows, or approach if they dodge.

Yes, that's the point of the game, but when that can be accomplished at 20% or so, it is unfair.

Nobody flies far enough to be meteor'd into the thing at that low of damage. Besides, it's not exactly hard to avoid.

Still, the rain can cause some slippery deaths. Even when the rain isn't there, the left hill causes problems. Since it's a walk-off, characters such as King Dedede and Falco can dthrow chaingrab you right off into the blast zone.

Slippery deaths? It's incredibly easy to just grab the ledge if you start to slide off, and if your opponent is already there you can jump off and still recover with your triple jump just fine. I've already commented several times on the chainthrow issue, so I don't want to bother with that again.

This still doesn't stop camping. Your friend could just fly up to the top left set of leaves and force you to approach while simply spamming his arrows.

It's actually a lot easier to approach on Hanenbow than it looks. Generally either the leaves will block his arrows and force him to approach me, or I can take the opportunity to go after him because it's actually pretty easy to do. He doesn't like jumping to the bottom leaf since I can knock him out more easily from there and the leaves block his arrows more easily, and from the top tree I can just approach him from the bottom since he can't fire arrows directly downward. It basically forces air combat, which some characters would prefer if given the chance, thus making it an ideal counter-pick stage for them.

 

[Serris]

c o u n t e r p i c k l e g a l :
...
Mushroomy Kingdom (walls, stage scrolls, walk-offs)
Rumble Falls (walls, stage scrolls, damage hazard, KO hazard, walk-offs)
...

You just lost all of your credibility.

 

[Mic_128]

ACTUALLY, there ARE many stages that have already been banned. My LEAST favorite happens to be shocking to most. They might world-wide tournament ban everyone's favorite stage: Final D. Horrible isnt it?

They will not ban FD. A lot of people hated the eedges in battlefield (myself included) but it was legal, and I don't see it changing at all.

The rain is a HUGE hazard, if it comes down while someone is on the slanted part, they could easily die if they blinked even, because it moves them so fast.

Maybe instead of just blinking they could jump, or just hold right and grab the edge and then jump back to the main platform.

Not to mention the random projectiles (aka items) that appear are completely stupid.

Definetly. You'd think when they're being attacked in their leaf form they'd shield.

Jokes aside, nothing's wrong with them. Asside from Items from various character's, what about good ol Green Greens? Except these are better. They must be attacked to be used, they don't do damage/randomly explode on appearing like the apples, they don't recover hp, and don't do as much damage/knockback as them either, not to mention it's easier to catch/dodge items, and it helps discourage campers on the slants. And they definetly don't explode at all.

And don't even get me started on the giant bulborb, cause that thing is so ghey. Not even so much as it can kill you, but it limits people's actions because they know that if they go over there, there is a chance it will eat them. The bulborb seriously limits people's options just because they are scared of it.

It's very rare that anyone will land on the guy, and even then, you can land safely on the back half then jump back to the platform. And what's the alternative, wider edge with the bulborb, or a much shorter death point like on the left side? I know what I'd rather.

EDIT: I have another question - it seems that Pirate Ship is actually quite fair... it's just that the catapult thing is hella annoying, and the cannon balls too hazardous. So it seems that counterpick is the one place it shouldn't go... it would either be acceptable, or unacceptable. Am I wrong?

Otherway around really. It's too hazardous to be neutral (mainly the cannons) but it's not hazardous enough to be banned. Counterpick is more than likely where it'll end up.

Hmm, I don't believe the fish can eat you through that ice. I've tested it before, and I remember that it only appears through the deeper water. And, it's not hard to dodge the fish before it comes out, but once it's out, your *** better be up the iceberg or you are Fishy Chow.

It almost ate someone at my smashfest last night. She landed on the bottom platform while it was in the water and the fish jumped out and almost ate her less than a second after she landed. If she hadn't started to run as soon as she landed she'd be fish food.

 

[Eten]

You just lost all of your credibility.

Bull****. Bull**** bull**** BULL****!

I ain't doing that list for my self. I hate the stages, I'm doing it because an immeasurable amount of clueless noobs come on here and yelp "I don't like this stage cause blah blah, ban". THOSE are in there because I'm looking for a guy to say "scrolling stages are lame" and for another guy to say "what's wrong with scrolling stages?" so we can figure out legit reasons why and actually make some progress.

None of this "credibility" crap. For god's sake.

 

[AlexX]

I ain't doing that list for my self. I hate the stages, I'm doing it because an immeasurable amount of clueless noobs come on here and yelp "I don't like this stage cause blah blah, ban". THOSE are in there because I'm looking for a guy to say "scrolling stages are lame" and for another guy to say "what's wrong with scrolling stages?" so we can figure out legit reasons why and actually make some progress.

Allow me to help.

I think Rumble Falls is a lot better than the Icicle Mountain before it. Unlike Icicle Mountain, you can't just keep going up and wait for the stage to kill your opponent. The stage scrolls at a decent pace where you can fight while keeping up with the stage, and it gives you a decent amount of warning before going faster. Walls do exist, but attempt to keep an opponent pinned to it and you'll end up killing yourself with your opponent once the stage scrolls past you. And despite how it looks, I could not find any walk-off edges.

Spikes are really the only issue I see with it since the first one can kill at relatively low %'s, but it's in the same place every time and doesn't stick around for too long. Unless you're at high damage, you're most likely not going to get knocked into it, and likewise, you won't hit it accidentally unless you've never played the stage before since it never changes position.

As for Mushroomy Kingdom? Honestly, I haven't played on that one too much, so I'm afraid I can't help you there...

 

[Firestorm88]

You just lost all of your credibility.

Actually if you read through this thread you'll notice he has some of the most credibility in the thread as he's been trying to establish some clearcut rules for why some stages should be banned and others shouldn't.

 

[MysticKenji]

Falco's laser keeps going until it hits something, AlexX.

 

[AlexX]

Falco's laser keeps going until it hits something, AlexX.

Does it? I play him the least of the 3, and since I know Wolf and Fox's stop after a certain distance, I assumed that Falco's did the same and it just had more range to it.

I'll go to a big stage like New Pork City with a fixed camera and test it out next time I get the chance.

 

[Corner-Trap]

These stages need to be banned because their movement and hazards are too random.

PictoChat
WarioWare
Flat Zone 2
Spear Pillar
Big Blue

All other stages should be tested out in tournaments first. We shouldn't be claiming that characters have broken tactics on certain stages when we haven't even tested it out yet.

 

[Mic_128]

Pictochat may be random but none of the transformations break the game or cause high damage ko's.

 

[infernovia]

I apologize for this but we are banning the summit right? Even more than the hazards, I feel that the lack of edges just completely overwhelm Olimar/Ivysaur. I am getting tired of dying at 50%.

 

[Trozz]

I support this list of stages for legality.

 

[Testament27]

I am a dillweed for supporting this list of stages for legality.

fix'd


10 charmanderos

 

[Trozz]

No love.
-.-

 

[Veral42]

I haven't gotten enough time to read everyone else's posts yet, but a friend of mine asked me to create a stage legality list for our school's upcoming SSBB tourny and this is what I came up with. I appologize if this seems long-winded, I went over each stage.

All stage selections were amde under the assumption that all items (including the SB) are off.

Also, a brief summary of my listing catagories (I'm not sure how these relate to others interpritations of the catagories or if they match up with the officical use of the phraseing):
Ban: It's kinda hard to mess this on up... just don't pick the stage.
Counter-Pick: These are stages that are picked (or not picked) depending on the current score of the match (picks based on a players discretion). Not picked as a first stage.
Legal: Pick them... don't pick them... it's up to you. The first battle of the match is always on one of these stages though.

Ban
Mushroomy Kingdom: This stage has alot of breaking features. Stage 1-1 isn't to-to bad, but lets ppl grab hog people off the edge and then run back. Stage 2-2 is worse. 2-2 features the same flaw as 1-1, but now people can camp the top of the screen and U-Throw people off at very low percentages.

Rumble Falls: I'll admit, the stage is fun to play on. However the speed changes (scrolling in general) and the almost-hidden spikes (which seem good at KOing people, forced me to put this stage on the Ban list.

Spear Pillar: This stage is off the hook. In any match, the pokemon or stage may KO you more than your opponent. Slowed time, flipping stage, inverse controlls, an attacking legend, and beams of death made this stage a sure thing on my Ban list.

WarioWare, INC.: This stage is cool in my opinion, but it draws more attention to itself than to the fight. The mini-games withing the stage almost put the fight on hold at times, and give bonuses to players on purpose. This is why I put this fun stage on the Ban list.

Port Town Aero Drive: As a general rule I enjoy the falcon stages. However the cars deal insane damage and knockback. That, put together with the fast paced scene changes put this stage onto the Ban list.

Distant Planet: I argued with myself for a while about putting this stage on Ban or Counter-Pick. In the end, I decided to place this stage on the Ban list due to the fact that players can almost lock opponents onto the slope during the rain, effectively building lots of damage or killing them.

New Pork City: The new Temple stage, except that Temple is in this game as well. Far to big, fast players have advantage, spamming, blah blah blah. You guys know the drill. Add a 1-hit KO element into the level and Game Over. Banned.

Summit: This stage is wierd, in my opinion. I put it onto the Ban list because of a few reasons. There aren't grab-ledges after the peak falls (not sure about before), there's a death-fish that eats you, and the gravity lessens during the slide.

75 M: A good idea... but not. This stage is far to cramped. It can either be to easy or to hard to KO your opponent (depending on the characters used) and as such favors some people over others. Plus DK is an a** when you're hit into him.

Flat Zone 2: Short edges, destructive stage features (note destructive, not destroyable), and cramped spaces put this onto the Ban list.

Mario Bros.: I actually enjoy this stage... a lot. However, it can be very difficult to KO your opponent unless the stage hazzards are used, so in the end I ut this on my Ban list as well.

Pictochat: Interesting, but some of the stage layouts can be deadly. An example is chain-smashing people into the spiked sides. Ban.

Hanenbow: Weird... that doesn't even begin to describe this stage. The stage also looks like it has a ledge where there is not and the water is non swimmable (or difficult to swim in). This put it on my Ban list.

Temple: A favorite for everyone... that play fox or falco or wolf or... blah blah. Spammin, fast, blah blah. You guys prolly know all this already so I'm just gunna shut-up now about this stage. Ban.

Yoshi's Island (meele): A returning stage, this stage is prime for SDs with the blocks center. Also, getting locked under the stage till you fall is no fun for anyone. Ban.

Jungle Japes: This is fun, and while it's now a whole he** of a lot easier to recover from the water, it stil moves quickly and has the Clampers jumping around. This put it onto my Ban list.

Big Blue: Personally, I just hate the stage.

Shadow Moses Island: After testing Dedede's throwing out with a bonch of characters and against a few diferent people I decided to Ban this stage. It's not an easy combo to get out of, but it's nearly impossiable to get out of. I'll continue testing onwards throughout the week to see if I can find any reliable ways out.
...
For other reasons I'l include the rapidly changing stag positions and deadly ground.

~All Custom Stages~

Counter-Picks
Luigi's Mansion: A fun stage in cramped spaces with questionable walling. In all honesty, the only thing that kept this off of my Ban list is that it has no "hazards" to speek or and in the normal progression of combat the house is likely to fall anyways.

Norfair: I've heard a lot of mixed commentary about this stage. In my opinion (and from my experiance on the stage) there is ample warning for when and where the lava is coming from. Also, the lava never seals death. I've heard people say the capsul doesn't let people in... hit the capsul to open it... pelase?

Bridge of Eldin: To be honest, I almost put this on my legal list and Pirate Ship on my Counter-Pick list. The hazards can be sen a mile away, however the bombs almost always kills if you're knocked into it. It was because of this fact that I put this stage on my Counter-Pick list.

Mario Circut: I know a lot of people have issues with stages that have cars in them, hoever in this stage there si suficient warning beforehand and the cars only cover one of the levels. Also, the cars don't have quite enough knockback to have me really worried. In my experiance, if I die from the cars I'm at a high enough percent to be killed by their next hit anyways.

Battleship Halberd: This stage is relatively asy to get the hang of. The main reason it's on my Counter-Pick list is because of the instant-death in the beginning and the ample damaging hazards.

Skyworld: This was another one I almost put on my legal list. It's a simple enough stage, however, it's on my CP list because of the ease of level --> cloud spiking. If you time it right, the level will respawn just after they fly THROUGH the cloud, making it difficult for a good number of the characters to recover.

Green Greens: The things that worry me in this stage is the wind and the bombs... both of which can be seen 2 miles away, and accounted for effectively. However, their presence put this stage onto my CP list.

Rainbow Cruise: Personally, I thing this is a fun stage. It's balanced, and doesn't favor any character above others. People like to complain because it scrolls and the platfomrms can dissapear on you. My counte for this is the fact that the level NEVER changes. The pace is slow meaning you can focus on the fight, the edges are reliable and actually make edge hogging/guarding MORE difficult im many cases. Also, the platforms dissapere at the same point every, every time. Play the stage 3 - 4 times and you'll know it like the back of your hand. Slower character players say it disfavores them, but the beginning and end-->beginning cycles favor their harder hitting more than a fast character's. However, due to the scrolling and periodic disappearing platforms (which as I said are slow and consistant) I put this onto my CP list instead of my legal list.

Cornaria: Ship fire that hits in all the wrong places, being carried off by ships, a GIANT FRIGGIN LASER, and a wall that can be used to lock an opponent almost put this into my Banned list. On the other hand, it's a classic and almost everyone knows how it works. In the end, my sense of tradition overcame my common sense and I put this into my CP list.

Onett: To be perfectly honest, I HATE this stage. However, it is more or less balanced. Also, the stage gives you a giant warning when the cars are coming (JUMP!!! up, 'x', and 'y' all do it, JUST JUMP FOR THE LOVE OF GOD). The middle platform drop, but I don't really see that as to big of an issue. CP list for sure.

Brinstar: This stage has lava... and 101 ways to dodge it while keeping the fight moving at a good place (STOP CAMPING AND FIGHT!). Other than that, it's balanced enough for 90% of the characters to fight well on it. In the end, though, the lava till puts this onto the CP list.

Pirate Ship: *The Great Ninja* This stage has been moved to the CP section now (if you don't get the ninja reference, read a couple of post pages ahead), and it will probably stay here. The cannonballs have awful KO power, but we'll respect their 15-20 % damage. Also, abrupt changes in gravity and an insecure water area favor characters with good spiking d-airs. The rock area and the tilted ship also favor character's with "lunge like" moves.

Legal
Battlefield: Old, origional, balanced (sorry, couldn;t think of another 'o' adjective). This stage favors NO character over another and is a great setting for an even battle between anyone. Legal, no 'ifs', 'ands', or 'buts'.

Final Destination: *See the above description

Delfino Plaza: I know some people might question this "Why is this in Legal while Aero Port is Banned?" I have a number of reasons for this. The moving section does not have any bottom to build the damage of a character, making it effectively a moving Batlefield. On top of that the landing points are all balanced and favor no character ofer any other, not to mention the lack of mentaly-ill dirvers that seem to always aim for you. "I killed another pedestrian!" (Score +50points).

Yoshi's Island (Brawl): Blah blah walk-off edge blah etc.. (you get the picture). BE CAREFULL!!! Pay attention and you'll be fine on this stage. Other than that, it as a popping platform on the sides and is a balanced stage for all characters.

Lylat Cruiser: Yes, the stage tilts. No, that doesn't effect play to any real extent. Thing of it as a more bada** version of Battlefield. I've had a couple instances of ship fire, but the likelyhood of that is next to nothing compared to Corneria.

Pokemon Stadium 1&2: It's true, I'll admit it, the format of the stage changes. I'll also admit that it's pretty cool when it does (FRIGGIN SWEET!). The stage outline changes, favoring one character set one minute and then another the next. However, for this exact reason I feel that the levels are very balanced, especialy since the changes are randomly decided. Legal, no two ways about it.

Smashville: This level is Final Destination... with a giant moving platform hovering above it. I see no complaints about this level, so Legal.

Castle Siege: This stage is nice. Not only is it a Fire Emblem stage (Marth FT EPIC W), but it's also changing the type of play that it favors. Granted, that at rare times a stray catapult ball of fiery doom may hit you, but it's a rare enough occurence that it's not a large concern and players can focus on the fight.

Green Hill Zone: Yes, there is a pinwheel-checkpoint in it, and yes it can hurt you. However this is only if it's struck with PURPOSE and MEANING (yea... or something like that). On a more serious note, 9/10 times there'll still be enough room for a meaningfull battle to take place. The portions of the stage may break away at some points, but this doesn't make it any less favorable to any one person or another.

Frigate Orpheon: Thank you to Firestorm88 for aerting me to some aspects of the stage that I was not aware about. The stage has henceforth been moved from Ban to Legal.

And there you have it, that's what I've come up with after playing Brawl for far to long (it's my precious ). Anyways, some of the selections I made are obviously questionable and up for debate, but this is may take on it.

 

[aznegglover]

With drillshining and waveshining out, should stages with walls still be banned? The only issues that I can think of that are CGs and Falco's laser locking.

I played a Dedede on Shadow Moses Island

Stuck me up against a wall and proceeded to chain-grab me until like, 200-something %.

Yea. That wasn't fun.

AND I LOVE HANENBOW NO TOUCHY D;

 

[MysticKenji]

Green Hill Zone neutral and Frigate Orpheon banned? WTF?

 

[Firestorm88]

Veral, do some more reading..

Frigate Orpheon's switching is a non-issue. There's a huge alarm that gives you more than enough time to jump in the air to avoid the flip.

Distant Planet is incredibly well balanced. I don't understand what you mean by locking your opponent during the rain.

Not understanding the stage is no reason to ban Hanenbow, play on it more.

Pictochat is not so hazardous that it should be banned.

Problem with Shadow Moses is that you CAN'T tech DeDeDe's chaingrab against a wall. There is no way to do so unless you are a character he can't chaingrab.

Green Hill Zone is NOT neutral. No where close. The markers are there to be camped. The entire level revolves around who can hit a marker and use it to make the opponent's approaching impossible.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Veral, how exactly do you find Pirate Ship Neutral but Halberd Counterpick?

I mean, Green Hill Zone being neutral is a different, not comparable story, but Halberd's hazards are much more tame than Pirate Ship's.

The isntant kill thing only catches people not familiar with the stage, once you know that you just have to not be touching the outside ground (you could jump, and as long as you were even slightly above ground level, you'd live).

All of the Combo Cannon attacks are predictable when they'll strike, and where they'll strike (although not as much for the claw, you at least know it's going after a player), and even should they strike, the most damage they'll do is with that slow-moving ball, which is more or less comparable to Pirate Ship's cannon-fire.

I mean, I can understand the arguments against Halberd being a neutral, but having Pirate Ship above it is just really strange and I was curious why you thought that.

 

[Testament27]

halberd and pirate ship should be not legal for the same reasons. they are pretty much the same stage with diff scenery. green hill and shadow moses, although very cool stages imo, should not be legal, or at best counter picks. they are both advantageous to certain characters. i.e. green hill is advantageous to campers and sonic while shadow moses is advantageous to infinites and cgs.

 

[Veral42]

To: Dazwa and Firestorm88

You both had a few concerns, some similar and some different, regarding my takes on the stages legality or not. To begin with, I just want to make sure you both read the entire post, if you didn't you will have missed may thing (including my use of the terms and my questionings of some of my own judgements, judgements both of you took great liberty to attack). However, I will continue on with this post with the hopes of shedding some more light on why I made the choices I made and hopefully this will turn into a mutually benefitial discussion on what standards should be used in stage judgement.

All noted edits (if any) will occure after this post is made.

First, I will comment on Firestorm88's comments:

Upon playing Frigate again in responce to your pst (this time not with a person but with a computer) I found that the argument you presented in the Frigate's defence was accurate. As a further explenation of why I had previously put it as banned. whenever I have played this stage before, the flip always has come at the last stock of my roommate (granted he is not the best by any means, but he's getting there ). Whenever the flip happens, he has died and I had yet to see the end result of the flip. Thank you for pointing this out to me, and the Frigate will now be moved to the Legal section.

A further explination was called for on my use of the term locking, you are correct. During the rain, a number of characters have the ability to keep their opponent from recovering onto one of the platforms above the slope, due to the pull from the mini "river". Because of this fact, their opponents usually either die or take high levels of damage during the rain. Of course, this requires good timing and a little luck on the locker's part (i.e. knocking their oponent into the path of the "river" at the correct time). However, my experiences during online play and play with others has led me to feel that this feature makes the stage worthy of the Banned label. This is all still just, to one extent or another, speculation and the stage may well end up on my CP list for our first tourny at least. After that, I would need to see how the level play goes, and how exploitable the lock really is. An interesting comment on this stage, and I will look more closely at this level as the tourny date approaches. However, for the time being I'm going to keep this stage on the Ban list. As an after-note to this stage, the frog also eats you, so anyone good at Brawl shiningcan shine their opponent into the frog's mouth for an easy KO.

It is true, not understanding a stage is no reason to ban it. However, the water aspect still sticks it to the ban list. Also, you make comments about stages favoring campers. This also holds true to Hanenbow and the bottom left leaf. On top of that, I did not mention the limitations to immediate movement presented by the leaves, which makes the stage far more favorable to characters with ranged attacks or good air moves. This one I will also keep on the Ban list, and unless something drastic happens I don't see myself removing it anytime.

With Pictochat, I think that you are right with 80% of the scenerios it presents. However, I still feel that being able to lock an oponent in the fire on bouncing from the spiked walls breaks the level far beyond reasonable limits, especially with the random selection process.

In the end, you may be right about Shadow Moses Island, I haven't personally played it enough with a god Dedede to really know. However, this brings up the question "Is it fair to ban a level because one character can do one thing to some but not all of the characters if the can pull of one move in a limited space on the screen?" I don't feel that it is, which is why I have not Banned the level. In the end, this is not the same as being able to camp one area, and if a player is know for picking Dedede and trying to chaingrab then a simple solution is to pick someone he can't chaingrab in the first place. The character selection in Brawl is so extensive that no one is justified to not be good enough with at least 4 or 5 characters.

Your last critique of my post is one that I actually feel is an unreasonable accusation against a level. You said that "The markers are there to be camped", and wihile that may hold true for people who do not play competitively, anyone who has played in a tournament knows that just sitting behind the markers isn't going to win you a match. The markers have such a LOW campability in an actual competition that I feel that they don't pose enough of a threat to be brought ino consideration.

Thank you very much on your comments, I felt that my understanding of levels (Frigate Orpheon) was raised substantialy. I apologize that I do not have time to truely test the stages out as extensively as I wish I did (College and work take priority at the moment). I think on all the other stage critiques, with the exception of Green Hill Zone, the differences in opinion may very well simply be how we have or have not seen the level used effectively. Hopefully, this debate over the levels will continue until a clear decision has been made, and I truely appreciate your feedback.

Now, I didn't forget about Dazwa, so now to reply to his post:

To first tackle the issue of my decisions regarding Pirate Ship and Battleship Halberd. To begin with, I would like to reitterate my hope that you actually read the entire post before commenting, including my use of Legal and Counter-Pick, since I feel that may clear up much of your confusion. Regardless...

You are correct in your accusation, I was not sufficiently thorough with my descriptions surrounding my choices with these two stages (Pirat Ship excluded). If you had read thuroughly py Pirate Ship notation, you would have seen my line "For now, I have this stage as legal, but sometime in the near future I may put this into my CP list". I don't really have the energy to re-type my entire artical on Pirate Ship, so please re-read it for an excruciatingly thorough description.

As for Halberd. It is true that in many cases the instant death only catches those unfarmiliar with the stage. However, any spike-esque move or a footstool jump just as the ship is taking off will post an opponent on the ground long enough for them to get killed by the stage at almost 0%. The issue that I found with the cannon on Halberd as opposed to the cannon on Pirate Ship the blast lingers around for a few seconds. This fact, coupled with the fact that the cannon does not fire as soon as the lock-on appears, allows the locked character time to potentially knock his oponent away from the stage and set the cannon up to cover the edge, making a return to stage next to impossiable. Also, the claws path is, as you said, unpridictable, and the knockback can be substantial depending on how solid the hit is.

As for your comment on Green Hill Zone, I'm not exactly sure what you were getting at there, but apparently there is some debate about that stage, so if you could elaborate on your view that would be appreciated.

Upon revisiting the page prior to posting this to mak sure I had covered everything I noticed a post by Testament27 so...

To Testament27:
Above in this post I have addressed the issues that I had with Halberd and Pirate Ship, much like I addressed the potential issues with Shadow Moses and Green Hill Zone. Also, I can maybe see how Green Hill Zone might be advantageous to Sonic theoretically, but in practice I feel that it favores him no more than any other character.



In the end all of these were good comments, and I was surprised at which stage decisions were under fire. I want to extend a thanks to Firestorm88 for rectifying my misconception about the Orpheon flip, and hopefully more comments will come that will prove usefull to my final decisions.

(And also, I want to once again extend my appologies to Firestorm88. I know I don't have as much tim to read up as I would like to on everything, but I try to cover the basics of everything with what little time I have at the moment.)

 

[Firestorm88]

Well, for Pirate Ship (which I missed) you said the hazards weren't substantial. I agree it's not substantial enough to be banned, but you have to realize that the canonballs do 35%. Something I really don't think is neutral enough. It's my favourite counterpick stage so I'm not saying this out of hate for the stage.

I still disagree with Green Hill Zone. Using the markers to camp is a very effective strategy in higher level play in my opinion. My 1v1s usually boil down to someone getting a marker and using it as a shield of sorts.

I'm still not understanding Distant Planet. Couldn't the person slide down with the water, hang onto the edge, then jump up through the platform? Or stall until the water's gone?

 

[Trozz]

Yes you can, but these people are being noisy because they can't do anything when the rains hit.

Ok, seriously guys. The rain is as easy as hell to avoid unless you get thrown in to it (which is your fault for not throwing first). You get, what, 8 seconds before the water becomes an actual hazard? In the rotating Frigate, you don't half that time to account for the stage flip. The water doesn't make the stage unfair (because you can ledge grab stall anyway).

But the fact that there is rain in the first place adds enough spark for debate that this stage can't be considered 'neutral'.

 

[AlexX]

Sheesh, everyone keeps arguing to ban Hanenbow because of stuff that shouldn't be an issue...

Yes, you can't stand on the branch on the left side. Yes, the water isn't real. If you've played the stage, you'd know this and it wouldn't be a problem in the least. It promotes airgame and it's pretty easy to catch projectile campers on, making it an ideal counter-pick. Banning it just because it looks strange is rediculous.

 

[MysticKenji]

Maybe it's just because I main Ike, but I REALLY don't think Green Hill Zone is Neutral worthy

imo it's basically a smaller and more random Bridge of Eldin

 

[Veral42]

Well, for Pirate Ship (which I missed) you said the hazards weren't substantial. I agree it's not substantial enough to be banned, but you have to realize that the canonballs do 35%. Something I really don't think is neutral enough. It's my favourite counterpick stage so I'm not saying this out of hate for the stage.

I'm still not understanding Distant Planet. Couldn't the person slide down with the water, hang onto the edge, then jump up through the platform? Or stall until the water's gone?

I've been doing some more testing (instead of my CompSci work... oh well) relating to some of the issues that you pointed out in your earlier post. The first thing that I took a look at was the throw spamming with Dedede on Shadow Moses Island. I didn't see any f-throw potential, but I locked my friend who I've compeated against a number of times in tournaments with his d-throw. I'm not sure yet how I feel about incorporating this into my decisions and I'll do more extensive testing with it tommorow.

As for Pirate Ship, I'm going to change it to CP. I like the stage, however as you say the cannonballs do a lot of damage if they manage to hit you (though I still feel that it's hard to get hit by them).

As for Distant Planet, it's not so much the rain that I find is an issue, it's the waterfall-esque effect on the slope (To Trozz: You say that it's "your fault for not throwing first" but the situation may not be one in which you can throw first. Your argument, in my opinion, focuses to much on the idea that when the rain hits the battle is in a neutral situation.). You can hang on to the edge, and I guess that in itself can be a tactic to get back to the main stage, however I've found it's much more likely that you'll get hit while on the edge and then the water kills you. I'll play it tommorow for a few hours to test out some things with different characters.

To Firestorm88: Thank you for all of your feedback and the discussion and I hope it continues, since it is helping to better my understanding of the stages (I really wish that I had more time to devote at the moment to testing). In the end, Pirate Ship is getting moved to CP and I'm going to do more reaserch on the other stages tommorow when I'm not run-into-the-ground tired. Another thing I was tossing around was the idea of putting Bridge of Eldin in the Legal catagory. The only thing that worried me about this was the destructive power of the bomb and the fact that it's so easy to knock an opponent into the blast (which almost always results in death). If you have any comments on this idea they would be appreciated (Great... more work to do instead of work ).